Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 [11] 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 22 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Eve Solecist
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 16:47:41 -
[301] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Ito Eto wrote: As I've said before if they really cared about grabbing more of the pie, they need suck up thier "elite pvp" attitude and do something pretty radical. Like a consensual PvP server, or introducing social corps rather than trying to make Hisec/ NPC corps so toxic no one wants to stay in them (and consequently in the game).
Lol, wow. You need to warn people before you say something like that. I only have one lung, and I can't laugh that hard for that long. He's right, though.
If we had a consensual pvp server, it would be full of worthless idiots who waste their time being proud of killing dumb AI that is no challenge.
Of course CCP would remove the ability to PLEX on this server, though, because idiots don't need to think they can play easymode for free.
It would fill CCPs pockets. All these degenerated weaklings have a right to play too, uninterrupted, on a seperate server, completely isolated from those who actually play the game.
They could call it EVE ONLINE: ID 10 T.
We would be rid of them. They would be happy, not realising how everyone laughs about them. CCP would make money.
"Please do not file support tickets to ask if your support ticket will be answered soon." - Actual Quote.
|
Mag's
the united
19219
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 16:48:17 -
[302] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:March rabbit wrote:Just few examples of PvP i'm aware of: - gate camping - docking games - suicide ganking - hotdroping
... all of them need skills. ..... I guess the bar for that definition is lower with you. There is no bar with that definition, no matter how much you wish it to be true.
Player versus Player.
This is why you'll never get Eve and the sandbox it is. You're so set on making the box your size only, to have it only fit your definition of what it should be. That you miss great swathes of what it is for others, or dismiss them entirely.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1514
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 16:52:42 -
[303] - Quote
Since the unfounded assumptions are flying free in this thread, I'll lead with this: None of Rise's conclusions surprised me at all. I even got a hopeful gleam in my eye when he observed that the safety was an obstacle between new players and what they wanted to do.
So, with that out of the way:
Sibyyl wrote:Let's talk about two points people have brought up. Quote:1. The 15-day window is not long enough to speculate on negative effects ganking may have to player retention. Why do we think the 1% gank kill ratio will change for players >15 days and <3-6 months? It doesn't make sense to me that this statistic would change.
It's not a question of whether that statistic (or the "legal kill" statistic) would change, but whether the context would change. If getting people in corporations is the best way to retain them, then corporations dissolving or otherwise falling apart might endanger retention, yes? I emphasize might, because we're firmly in the realm of hypotheses here.
If true, there are some followup questions that are worth asking, and the explanation that "the corp died because it was wardecced" leaves out all the interesting ones: what were the points of failure? Were they necessarily all external, or were the most important ones internal? I've been in high sec corps that were wardecced, and we responded by consolidating, marshalling, planning, setting up fleets, and otherwise engaging people--to face nobody, as it turned out, but our leaders still did their best to make the experience educational and engaging for their members, and to give roles and guidance to its new players.
I have ~anecdata~ to the effect that wardecs and griefing aren't intrinsically bad, but that's not enough. I'd like to see Rise, or someone else at CCP, settle the question, and in an actionable way that leads to increased retention. And they should absolutely be completely open-minded about where asking that question takes them, because they know now that they can be surprised.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
|
Jenshae Chiroptera
1188
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 16:59:34 -
[304] - Quote
Ito Eto wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: EVE is here so many years later because it is niche and not a WoW clone. One problem is a lot of devs and players seem to think every MMO should be able to reproduce Blizzard's success. Its the same kind of fallacy that .... On that note, I often say, "Waste of Web is so popular because it was the first MMO that ran on almost any machine and could be played by any idiot." (It also has a mass that sucks in a lot of innocent people by RL associations)
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
.
High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow.
Fozzie is treating a symptom.
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3256
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 17:00:28 -
[305] - Quote
A few things bother me about CCP Rise's stats. I know people who have quit eve right after losing a ship. My wife is one. But here is the issue:
None of those losses were due to a gank, or griefing. None happened when the player was less than two weeks old.
CCP Rise's stats are interesting, but he may not be looking in the right place to see if there really is a problem.
I would like to know: How many stop playing right after a ship loss? How many stop playing right after, or during, a prolonged period of war decs?
I hope we get to hear more about this.In the presentation, CCP did mention they were going to look at what happened to players just before they quit, to see if there were any patterns.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
12384
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 17:01:37 -
[306] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:A few things bother me about CCP Rise's stats.
You know what bothers me? That heinous **** you said earlier, about how you consider it fine to grief people out of the game by spewing lies and misconceptions about PvP at them the moment you encounter them.
That's about the most toxic mentality I have ever heard of.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Jenshae Chiroptera
1189
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 17:06:33 -
[307] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:CCP Rise's stats are interesting, but he may not be looking in the right place to see if there really is a problem. I would like to know: How many stop playing right after a ship loss? How many stop playing right after, or during, a prolonged period of war decs? +1
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
.
High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow.
Fozzie is treating a symptom.
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3256
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 17:07:20 -
[308] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:....More importantly, that is not the game CCP originally conceived of when they designed Eve, nor is a solo PvE missioning game or mining simulator what they are selling the game as. It is a competitive PvP sandbox so of course it makes sense for them to focus on the social (i.e. sandbox) and PvP aspects of the game.
Actually, that is not what CCP says. This is what they say:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:We often hear "EVE is a PvP game, PvE is secondary". To this we would like to respond that EVE is a sandbox and shouldnGÇÖt necessarily favor one side over the other. What you do with it is up to you: all player activities should feel as appealing and rewarding no matter which choice you take.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
|
Ito Eto
State War Academy Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 17:08:53 -
[309] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Ito Eto wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: EVE is here so many years later because it is niche and not a WoW clone. One problem is a lot of devs and players seem to think every MMO should be able to reproduce Blizzard's success. Its the same kind of fallacy that .... On that note, I often say, "Waste of Web is so popular because it was the first MMO that ran on almost any machine and could be played by any idiot." (It also has a mass that sucks in a lot of innocent people by RL associations)
There was a fair bit of prior art, such as Lineage and Everquest, which Blizzard shamelessly copied. Where, I believe, it got a massive leg up was large fanbase for Warcraft (the RTS) and utilizing familiar, comfortable western folk lore rather than bizzaro Asian folklore that many westerners have no historical memory of, or can't relate to.
"Themepark" "Sandbox", these do not mean what you think they mean, EvE is as on rails as a freight train, and has as many attractions as Disneyland, but soundbites are easy, thinking is not.
|
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1655
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 17:19:35 -
[310] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:A few things bother me about CCP Rise's stats. You know what bothers me? That heinous **** you said earlier, about how you consider it fine to grief people out of the game by spewing lies and misconceptions about PvP at them the moment you encounter them. That's about the most toxic mentality I have ever heard of.
Spinning what he said is pretty toxic TBH.
He described a situation that probably happen in game, he didn't say he or anybody was good players for doing so especially if they know they are spreading false information. |
|
Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1514
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 17:20:04 -
[311] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:You can make that argument - if only CCP made the solo PvE experience better more players would stay - but the data do not support that.
So you don't think that the fact that solo PVE players have played every predictable, decade-old mission to death long before they've run out of slots on their Raven for shiny modules is not a factor?
I would argue that it is, but also that it wouldn't be enough. As Rise said in his 2014 presentation, a lot of people take the solo PVE route because it's where the old NPE points them; so in a real way, they're directed into a small and mostly neglected minigame within EVE, rather than being exposed to the game itself. That's a real problem which I'm glad they're tackling.
But even the people who enjoy that minigame are probably long past tired of rescuing the Damsel, yes? And maybe they'd stick around longer if that part of the game didn't top out so quickly, or if the mechanics rewarded fleeting up with other people instead of punishing it.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3256
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 17:21:14 -
[312] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:A few things bother me about CCP Rise's stats. You know what bothers me? That heinous **** you said earlier, about how you consider it fine to grief people out of the game by spewing lies and misconceptions about PvP at them the moment you encounter them. That's about the most toxic mentality I have ever heard of. I never said it was fine. I said it happens, and its a problem.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
|
Jenshae Chiroptera
1189
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 17:26:47 -
[313] - Quote
Ito Eto wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Ito Eto wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: EVE is here so many years later because it is niche and not a WoW clone. One problem is a lot of devs and players seem to think every MMO should be able to reproduce Blizzard's success. Its the same kind of fallacy that .... On that note, I often say, "Waste of Web is so popular because it was the first MMO that ran on almost any machine and could be played by any idiot." (It also has a mass that sucks in a lot of innocent people by RL associations) There was a fair bit of prior art, such as Lineage and Everquest, which Blizzard shamelessly copied. Where, I believe, it got a massive leg up was large fanbase for Warcraft (the RTS) and utilizing familiar, comfortable western folk lore rather than bizzaro Asian folklore that many westerners have no historical memory of, or can't relate to. The point being that other MMOs existed before WoW but they either weren't so hardware compatible or required some brains to succeed in them.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
.
High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow.
Fozzie is treating a symptom.
|
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
780
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 18:13:45 -
[314] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:I would like to know: How many stop playing right after a ship loss? How many stop playing right after, or during, a prolonged period of war decs? In this same presentation CCP Rise clearly said that less than 1% of players cite ship loss or harassment as their reason for unsubscribing.
You can claim that rage-quitters don't bother telling CCP why they are leaving, but again, the data shows that there is no evidence for the carebear narrative that players are griefed out of the game by gankers or wardeccers. Perhaps CCP Rise or Quant can look deeper into the statistics, or even have done so but not made that information public, but there is no reason to believe that wardecs or gankers are hurting player retention - if anything the data says the opposite is true.
Vincent Athena wrote:Actually, that is not what CCP says. This is what they say: CCP Ytterbium wrote:We often hear "EVE is a PvP game, PvE is secondary". To this we would like to respond that EVE is a sandbox and shouldnGÇÖt necessarily favor one side over the other. What you do with it is up to you: all player activities should feel as appealing and rewarding no matter which choice you take. Actually it is. From the New Pilot FAQ:
CCP wrote:7 PVP (PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER) The essential core concept of EVE Online is that it is full time PvP in a sandbox environment. As has been mentioned in previous sections any player can engage another player at any time... Of course it is a sandbox and you don't have to seek out PvP, but it is very much a PvP game.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10528
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 18:18:24 -
[315] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:CCP wrote:7 PVP (PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER) The essential core concept of EVE Online is that it is full time PvP in a sandbox environment. As has been mentioned in previous sections any player can engage another player at any time... Of course it is a sandbox and you don't have to seek out PvP, but it is very much a PvP game.
It's a shame that you have to point out that which is obvious. EVE is a sandbox pvp game , it's clear by the way that pvp is possible anytime a player is in space and much of the game's market involves direct competition with other players. I will never understand the denial about this basic truth of EVE Online.
But I guess for some people, when you have a narrative you want to cling to, observable facts are things to be discounted.
|
Ito Eto
State War Academy Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 18:33:40 -
[316] - Quote
Well its a sandbox apart from all those rules everywhere, non player modifiable 'World', inability to build anything except built in per-defined modules and ships that have to be fitted in specific ways....
I guess throwing a thin veneer of role-play over your actions might be sufficient, but you might as well run around in Counterstrike pretending to be a Jihadi or a LEO. And no Game of Risk in space doesn't qualify either.
Just because a marketing droid says something, does not make it factually so.
Now Feed The Beast and Minecraft, they are games you can build a 100m long ***** in, and therefore qualify as sandbox.
"Themepark" "Sandbox", these do not mean what you think they mean, EvE is as on rails as a freight train, and has as many attractions as Disneyland, but soundbites are easy, thinking is not.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10531
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 18:36:41 -
[317] - Quote
Ito Eto wrote:Well its a sandbox apart from all those rules everywhere, non player modifiable 'World', inability to build anything except built in per-defined modules and ships that have to be fitted in specific ways....
I guess throwing a thin veneer of role-play over your actions might be sufficient, but you might as well run around in Counterstrike pretending to be a Jihadi or a LEO. And no Game of Risk in space doesn't qualify either.
Just because a marketing droid says something, does not make it factually so.
Now Feed The Beast and Minecraft, they are games you can build a 100m long ***** in, and therefore qualify as sandbox.
Even Wikipedia knows better than you on this issue.
|
Ito Eto
State War Academy Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 18:45:31 -
[318] - Quote
Free roam or Open world =/= sandbox.
Jump-gates are just glorified loadscreens. No procedurally generated self extending world.
"Themepark" "Sandbox", these do not mean what you think they mean, EvE is as on rails as a freight train, and has as many attractions as Disneyland, but soundbites are easy, thinking is not.
|
Mag's
the united
19219
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 18:51:52 -
[319] - Quote
Ito Eto wrote:Free roam or Open world =/= sandbox.
Jump-gates are just glorified loadscreens. No procedurally generated self extending world. A true sandbox game would be anarchy, therefore unplayable. That's why sandbox games such as Eve have certain rules.
Also jump gates are there, to allow the game to run on a single shard.
**Destination SkillQueue:- **
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Jenshae Chiroptera
1190
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 18:54:12 -
[320] - Quote
Again. This is within a very narrow 15 days scope.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
.
High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow.
Fozzie is treating a symptom.
|
|
Ito Eto
State War Academy Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 19:01:02 -
[321] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Ito Eto wrote:Free roam or Open world =/= sandbox.
Jump-gates are just glorified loadscreens. No procedurally generated self extending world. A true sandbox game would be anarchy, therefore unplayable. That's why sandbox games such as Eve have certain rules. Also jump gates are there, to allow the game to run on a single shard. Exactly my point.
Afaik the only known Sandbox MMO is Second life, and then as you point out, only to a certain degree. As someone who currently admins a FTB server, it is pretty much anarchy unless you white-list the logins to trusted players, or lock all the nuclear weapons and magic down with scripts, and thus remove the sandbox.
The acid test of a sandbox game:- Can you build a 100m long c@ck (preferably flying with lasers on it). Cue Thorax gifs.
"Themepark" "Sandbox", these do not mean what you think they mean, EvE is as on rails as a freight train, and has as many attractions as Disneyland, but soundbites are easy, thinking is not.
|
Jenshae Chiroptera
1190
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 19:09:32 -
[322] - Quote
Ito Eto wrote:... the only known Sandbox MMO is Second life ... MMO is short for MMOG Massive Multiplayer Online Game. Games have measure of successes, in EVE how big an empire you build, ISK you collect, ships you fly well, kills you gather, etc.
Second Life has no objective that the player does not set for themselves and thus, it is a virtual world with games in it.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
.
High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow.
Fozzie is treating a symptom.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10531
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 19:22:18 -
[323] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: Again. This is within a very narrow 15 days scope.
And what scope is the information you have that goes counter to what Rise said?
You know that's a rhetorical question, for if simply points out that while the information we have is in some ways incomplete, it's infinitely more complete than the non-Data that many of you have formed your opinions around. It's like some religious person telling a scientist "your data on evolution is incomplete" while not understanding that they themselves have zero data.
|
Jenshae Chiroptera
1190
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 19:32:00 -
[324] - Quote
There is data, which can be turned into information and there is propeganda. Guess which one you are clutching to your breast and screaming that it is the truth?
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
.
High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow.
Fozzie is treating a symptom.
|
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno.
4388
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 19:33:06 -
[325] - Quote
are we assuming that ccp only looked at fifteen days and never thought of looking at a longer period of time
or are we assuming that ccp looked at a longer period of time, saw data that disagreed with what they saw in fifteen days and decided to present the fifteen day data at fanfest anyway
"after having redefined sandbox contrary to the popular understanding of the word, i find eve is not a sandbox" |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno.
4388
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 19:38:31 -
[326] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: There is data, which can be turned into information and there is propeganda. Guess which one you are clutching to your breast and screaming that it is the truth? the data that was turned into information and presented on stage at fanfest
is this a trick question |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10534
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 19:38:49 -
[327] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: There is data, which can be turned into information and there is propeganda. Guess which one you are clutching to your breast and screaming that it is the truth?
Ok, Then show us all what you mean. I mean, you are always skirting over what I say, present some counter facts, show us why you think the way you do, the evidence you used to come to your conclusions.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10534
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 19:43:57 -
[328] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: There is data, which can be turned into information and there is propeganda. Guess which one you are clutching to your breast and screaming that it is the truth? the data that was turned into information and presented on stage at fanfest is this a trick question
It's always a trick question when that question challenges someone's (for lack of a better word) 'Faith' lol.
If the data suggested the opposite (ie "We don't know for sure, but our survey of 80,000 characters, looking at the 1st 15 days , suggests that ganking seems to chase people away from the game"), the EXACT same people would be on this forum, claiming it was gospel truth and demanding that CCP end non-consensual pvp gameplay in the name of the children player retention lol.
Still, while their squirming wasn't the intention, watching them squirm around in denial is entertaining, especially when it's coming from the guy who started the thread. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
1193
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 19:52:11 -
[329] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:are we assuming that ccp only looked at fifteen days and never thought of looking at a longer period of time or are we assuming that ccp looked at a longer period of time, saw data that disagreed with what they saw in fifteen days and decided to present the fifteen day data at fanfest anyway "after having redefined sandbox contrary to the popular understanding of the word, i find eve is not a sandbox" 15 days of played time. It has been pointed out and this is from the top of my head that:
- To sit in a battleship takes 8 days minumum + misc skills + fittings, so that throws most of the newbies that quit after losing everything in one of those out of the window. - Newbies aren't worth ganking when they are too new. - Newbies getting into duels, seeing how feeble they are, how long they will take to get better and quit are under the "legally killed" group. - That 15 days covers a lot of trial players who weren't likely to stick around, they came on, had a look and quit. - They don't mention if this counts alt that aren't played again because they are forum ones. - This doesn't break down if they are throw away alt accounts used for scouting.
So on and so forth.
Taking the 15 days of people's play is too limited and ludicrous.
That this was even used, even run through the database makes CCP look very questionable. That people are clutching onto it is even more ridiculous.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
.
High Sec needs a stepping stone to other areas of space, where they can grow.
Fozzie is treating a symptom.
|
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
784
|
Posted - 2015.04.01 20:10:55 -
[330] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Taking the 15 days of people's play is too limited and ludicrous.
That this was even used, even run through the database makes CCP look very questionable. That people are clutching onto it is even more ridiculous. It's not ludicrous at all. If you watched that presentation you can see that CCP Rise and his team are sifting through the data, running focus groups, and scientifically testing the opportunities system on new players in order to find what causes players to leave and what keeps new players in the game. A huge fraction of players who start the trial do not stay with the game. Understanding why that is, and therefore what can be improved makes perfect sense, and is what I would expect a competent game company to do.
The 15-day time frame is perfectly fine for the stated goal of figuring out how to get more people to subscribe to the game from the trial. What is ridiculous is rejecting this hard data out of hand and replacing it with... no data to come to the conclusion that CCP is wrong somehow. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 [11] 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 22 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |