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interSTELLA555
Unknown Crusade
3
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Posted - 2015.03.11 01:45:52 -
[1] - Quote
I figured I'd put this out there, but part of the extreme bordom of EvE is being stuck in one place. The skill that changed jump clone timers was a nice touch, but this brings the point. What is the point of long jump clone timers in the first place. What does it acomplish. WIth the changes in Pheobe, power projection across the galaxy with capital ships has been significantly reduced. Additionally, a player can no longer pod themselves and wake up in a new area instantly. I don't why CCP thought this needed to be changed. Yes a player could get around jump fatigue by podding to a new location close to the capital ship for use; however, the capital ship would already need to be in position.
All in all the phoebe changes were a signifcant nerf to capsuleer mobility. This was never really a problem outside of capital abuse. I don't really know why CCP does a lot of things; however, I believe that a small and easy to make the game more accessible is to reduce jump clone timers. When someone logs on to play EvE they may want to play for a day. However, if they want to do multiple things in null sec with multiple clones, they literally have to wait almost another day. In its current iteration, EvE is very attrition based. For some reason or another trying to "acomplish a task" is hard because of a combination of "potentially flawed" in game mechanics and an infinite supply of bloodthirsty pilots.
I believe this is why many PvP environments are stagnant. People don't want to take risk not only from a Isk lost standpoint but also from a time lost standpoint. If I want to PvP in my t1 cruiser knowing I will probably loose it I am more willing to take that risk or even throw away multiple cruisers if I know in a couple of hours (4 or 5) I can pod back to my main clone. However, if I know it will be a full day before I can even get back to my main, (learning, travel, capital pilot or both) clone, I really don't wanna undock at all.
I think that CCP fails to understand that there game has been optimized to the core elements. So much so that the people who have optimized it (Goons and PL) are bored to death. They want someone to fight but know one wants to fight them because it is such a significant task on not only Isk but real game time to do so. People WANT to fight. There are so many small scale low sec PvP groups; however, in current game mechanics it is a long and daunting task to burn around looking for someone only to be killed while blind-sighted.
I argue that reducing clone Jump Fatigue does not 100% solve this problem; however, it allows people in EvE to PvP without being pigeonholed into a situtation so compromising that a full day of "play time" is lost.
Example one: You are a good bro you go out solo in a small gang looking for a fight. You (probably will) die like a bro might get some respect and get podded.
Your options are to BURN all the way back to a PvP zone from high sec or an area where you are taking care of other things to the PvP zone and fight with a new clone.
Or with a 5 hour timer, you can jump there spending less daunting time burning and more time PvPing.
Finally, I deal with the obvious argument " YOu can just set your home clone or jump clone to the PvP zone" I think in EvE we see that players are divided into industrialists and PvPers as a label. I argue that this is less because of a decision and more about accessiblity. Yes you can have 10 jump clones; however, you have to either set them up properly or have 8.0 standings with multiple NPC corps in order to be to travel from 1 job : industry to another job PvP. You could pvp where your industry is but that is not always avaible. Particularly because it would be stupid to set up PVP next to a hotzone unless you are in a null block. If you are not in a null block, the logistics of traversing to PVP areas is daunting and setting up multiple clones (each requireing a day wait) (20hrs whatever) is also daunting. Clone jumping does not restrict game play; it just exacerbates a game of already daunting grind.
My last point is to build on my previous point that industrialists dont want to PvP. I am an industrialist. Primarily to try to support my PvP. However, managing both simultaneously is quite difficult. When I log on to PvP I want to PvP, but I don't want to be trapped away from my industry clones for a long period of time. Nor do I want to be stuck in some far away PvP zone for an extended period. I know I can get an alt to do both but I don't want to pay for both. Anyway take it or leave it. |
interSTELLA555
Unknown Crusade
3
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Posted - 2015.03.11 01:56:05 -
[2] - Quote
I know there are interceptors but you have to BUY an interceptor if you are PVPing in a hostile area. The little guys or small scale gangs dont have access to CONSISTENT interceptors with decent fittings accross many areas of null sec. This is why I say Daunting. Because looking for a fight you can be trapped, and if you want to go out and fight a SECOND TIME, you have to deal with the daunting task twice.
For example, you can store some t1 cruisers in NPC null, blow threw them, however, you have to wait a full day for your PvE clone.
If you want to KEEP a clone there for future use you have to WAIT 20 hours. THis is the daunting part. It would be better to just chill or go afk a while. Come back and pod out.
YEs you could keep another jump clone there but that requires additionally 8.0 standings (extreme grinding) or set up (1 day timer for each clone set up).
If I wanna mine in my minning bonus clone, I cant If I wanna go fix my industry stuff that is more than 20 jumps away or in a wh, I cant. If I wanna get or move my PI, I can't.
I hope this makes sense. |
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1239
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Posted - 2015.03.11 03:30:50 -
[3] - Quote
It makes sense in a twisted way.
Unfortunately, it's also about 6 months too late to be part of a meaningful conversation.
Rapid long distance JC switching is a significant method of force projection in the current EVE.
CCP specifically said that they were not going to lower the JC timer because they wanted to keep people from jumping from place to place several times a day in order to stamp out hotspots.
And I agree with that.
-1 |
M'pact
Apotheosis of Caledvwich Dirt Nap Squad.
59
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Posted - 2015.03.11 03:42:40 -
[4] - Quote
-1
No need to further reduce jump clone timers.
Learn to work within the limitations of the universe instead.
When I finally do make an impact on this universe, it will reverberate across the entirety of it, and no one will be able to truthfully claim they don't know me.
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Until then, I'll just sit quietly over here, minding my own business...
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interSTELLA555
Unknown Crusade
3
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Posted - 2015.03.11 04:05:11 -
[5] - Quote
Ugg this is ********. Force projection is a word. The problem wasn't force projection, it was projection with huge fleets of slowcats / wreckingball
If you have a lot of pilots you can already travel through wormholes and Thera to get places fast with a lot of guys. YOu aren't going to jump your whole alliance to one area and then change to another area fast enough for jump clones to be significant. No deployment is less than a day.
The bottom line, the "force projection argument is COMPLETELY IRRLIVANT" Because no alliance is going to TAKE THE TIME TO PROJECT THE FORCE IN MASS IN WAY OF JUMP CLONES FOR LESS than a day. |
Anhenka
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
1239
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Posted - 2015.03.11 04:12:20 -
[6] - Quote
interSTELLA555 wrote:Ugg this is ********. Force projection is a word. The problem wasn't force projection, it was projection with huge fleets of slowcats / wreckingball
If you have a lot of pilots you can already travel through wormholes and Thera to get places fast with a lot of guys. YOu aren't going to jump your whole alliance to one area and then change to another area fast enough for jump clones to be significant. No deployment is less than a day.
The bottom line, the "force projection argument is COMPLETELY IRRLIVANT" Because no alliance is going to TAKE THE TIME TO PROJECT THE FORCE IN MASS IN WAY OF JUMP CLONES FOR LESS than a day.
No, easy projections of stupid numbers of subcaps was plenty of a problem as well.
I'm obviously not going to convince you because you clearly have no intention of having a reasonable discussion, but you are dead wrong on the not using JC's part as well. Groups already use JC's to cover important areas and engage on multiple fronts all the time.
But with the 19-24 hour timer, it becomes impossible to easily use JC's to fight in completely different wars fronts, due to being locked out of one area for 20ish hours after jumping.
There was no shortage of times I have heard "Oh well _____ was going to JC from way far away to come fight far from home, but they couldn't because they all had to burn their JC's to get to the fight at xxxxxx"
P.S: Ranting and acting spoiled and entitled isn't impressing anyone, and certainly not CCP.
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Sigras
Conglomo
1015
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Posted - 2015.03.11 06:52:56 -
[7] - Quote
The ONLY thing you MAY have a semi-reasonable argument for is a shorter (like 4-5 hour) timer on switching clones for different implants in the same station.
This is a game where you have to plan ahead to get ahead, and the decisions you make have lasting consequences... if you dont like that go back to WoW
PS force projection of massive fleets is exactly how alliances would use a short JC timer. People in large alliances would simply be required to save their JCs or be kicked from the alliance. |
Iain Cariaba
1132
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Posted - 2015.03.11 08:40:55 -
[8] - Quote
If an FC can order several hundred people to jump clone to staged ships Fountain to bash a POS, then 3-4 hours later order those same several hundred people to clone jump to staged ships in Geminate to help rep another tower, then 3-4 hours later order those same several hundred people to clone jump to staged ships in Deklein to rescue a ratting super, that is force projection. Whether in subcaps or supers, the ability to rapidly move forces from one side of the galaxy to the other and back, in total safety, is a bad thing. No amount of raging and crying will change the fact that CCP agrees with this, and has taken steps to cut down on it happening.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
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Samillian
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
736
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Posted - 2015.03.11 09:07:38 -
[9] - Quote
I believe that poor organisation, time management and apathy are insufficient as justifications for such a change while the increased ability to project force such a change would herald is certainly a reasonable objection to it.
Not supported.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
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SOL Ranger
SOL.
202
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Posted - 2015.03.11 09:52:40 -
[10] - Quote
I'd be fine with virtually unlimited clone changes if and only if clone jumps were restricted to the station you are in, as in not being able to jump outside the current cloning facility you're at.
Essentially what would be done:
- Allow multiple clones in a single station.
- Valid clone changes are only those which reside in the cloning facility.
- Remove timer on jump clone changes.
- Allow physical transportation of clones.
Yes there are drawbacks to some current game mechanics, however there are also easy solutions to those problems.
I've proposed this before to stop trivialising travel in EVE, currently clone jumping makes travel a very trivial event, one with virtually no meaningful consequences, your suggestion on top of that would make it catastrophic.
EVE needs more consequences of locality, not less.
The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.
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SilentAsTheGrave
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
108
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Posted - 2015.03.11 10:07:40 -
[11] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:If an FC can order several hundred people to jump clone to staged ships Fountain to bash a POS, then 3-4 hours later order those same several hundred people to clone jump to staged ships in Geminate to help rep another tower, then 3-4 hours later order those same several hundred people to clone jump to staged ships in Deklein to rescue a ratting super, that is force projection. Whether in subcaps or supers, the ability to rapidly move forces from one side of the galaxy to the other and back, in total safety, is a bad thing. No amount of raging and crying will change the fact that CCP agrees with this, and has taken steps to cut down on it happening. ^^ This pretty much. Power projection just recently was scaled back a bit for a very good reason. Making changes to further power projection is just shooting yourself in the foot. |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1481
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Posted - 2015.03.11 11:31:17 -
[12] - Quote
If multiple jump clones were allowed in one station, I would support allowing unlimited swaps between clones in the same station. All you'd be doing is swapping clones, there'd be no chance at increasing projection.
As for jumping to clones in different stations, I agree with Anhenka and others who have said that limits on jump clone timers are a necessary thing to prevent over-projection. Simply allowing for shorter timers without taking the distance you can travel into account would be a bad thing.
But one thing that does come to mind: what if jump clones worked like jump drives? Every time you changed clones, you built up a certain amount of "clone fatigue" based on how far the jump clone was from where you started. This could let folks make multiple short-range clone jumps in a shorter time, but would still prevent multiple long-range clone jumps in the same time period. It's a bit of a stretch and it would be a balancing nightmare to get right, but I think it's an interesting idea.
My Many Misadventures
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I seek to create content, not become content.
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SOL Ranger
SOL.
202
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Posted - 2015.03.11 12:38:09 -
[13] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote: ... But one thing that does come to mind: what if jump clones worked like jump drives? Every time you changed clones, you built up a certain amount of "clone fatigue" based on how far the jump clone was from where you started. This could let folks make multiple short-range clone jumps in a shorter time, but would still prevent multiple long-range clone jumps in the same time period. It's a bit of a stretch and it would be a balancing nightmare to get right, but I think it's an interesting idea.
While not a bad idea, I still would insist on the elimination of ranged clone jumps completely.
I cannot find any reason why we should be allowed to teleport anywhere, largely because it is directly avoiding the risk of undocking from where you yourself decided to dock, but also because it makes travel trivial and allows force projection as has been stated as well.
"Hearthstone" teleportation mechanics belong in theme park games where the go to motto is instant gratification, not sandboxes where consequences for one's actions should be the bottom line to create value for the game world.
The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
588
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Posted - 2015.03.11 13:05:26 -
[14] - Quote
Sigras wrote:
PS force projection of massive fleets is exactly how alliances would use a short JC timer. People in large alliances would simply be required to save their JCs or be kicked from the alliance.
This. I was in an alliance that quite a few times asked for pod suicice volunteers to be somewhere far far away fast. And the punchline....they got lots of volunteers. Prospect of a good fight, its only isk a mindset many like me have mixed with I don't generally roll billion isk clones in pvp (many like me too)....why the hell not.
Lets have clone ops keep this cost up in some way as clone mobllity can project force. Make this free....even the billion dollar implant pilots will be JC'ing all over.
Now all the clones in one station....that is a caveat I don't hate. Not 100% like either but it shows some merit potentially to grow on me. |
Khan Wrenth
Hedion University Amarr Empire
116
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Posted - 2015.03.11 14:11:22 -
[15] - Quote
May I butt in with a suggestion of my own?
Make jump clone timers similar to jump fatigue timers. Except no complicated primary and secondary cool-offs. How I imagined it would go like this....
Because there's something in the game code currently prohibiting same-station clones, let's not mess with that if we don't have to. Instead...jumping clones within the same solar system = no cooldown. Every one jump away that jump clone is, however, results in a two-hour increase in jumping fatigue, up to the current 24 hour mark. Jump to a clone 3 jumps away, BAM! 6 hours before you can jump back.
This gives players some flexibility in how they handle their jump clones, while retaining the timer to prevent abuse.
HTFU.-á Adapt or die.-á Beware the falcon punch.
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Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance
510
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Posted - 2015.03.11 15:27:26 -
[16] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:It makes sense in a twisted way. Unfortunately, it's also about 6 months too late to be part of a meaningful conversation.
Rapid long distance JC switching is a significant method of force projection in the current EVE.
CCP specifically said that they were not going to lower the JC timer because they wanted to keep people from jumping from place to place several times a day in order to stamp out hotspots.
And I agree with that. -1
P.S: If you base in your PvP area, then you don't have much to travel after dying.
I don't normally agree with anhenka but this is essentially the answer.
Pose the question in such a way that if you were getting attacked on two fronts at once, being able to respond to only one and not both is the cornerstone of eve. You must make choices and deal with the consequences. The same can ve said for sec status, standings, skillpoints, agent levels, faction warfare ranks etc etc
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
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Alexei Stryker
Steiners Erben
65
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Posted - 2015.03.11 16:07:46 -
[17] - Quote
I'm ok with 12 hours clone jump timer, but not 5 hours... Thats just too short. It's also ok to do the reduction by skills. I'm an excessive clone jump user since I do jump from Provi to High sec very often and I have multiple clones in different parts of high sec and 0.0 too. A 5 hour timer reduction would be a great great great benefit for me then. But I see a lot of game breaking potential in that. One of those would be making eve appear very small.
What I'm ok with though is an emergency clone jump. This would enable you to clone jump even though the clone jump timer is still running. The downside would be that you lose SP. Preferably the SP of the "Emergency clone jump" skill.
Ideas:
Right click context menu on char -> custom entries
Minimize the docking game
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Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
122
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Posted - 2015.03.11 17:52:22 -
[18] - Quote
Agrees on "no cooldown for jumps to clones in the same station" if that feature is enacted. Which I expect it will be for Legion / Valkyrie.
You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
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