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BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
388
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Posted - 2015.03.06 11:02:35 -
[61] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: The OP (knowing his chances of being elected are next to non-existent) ... the 'silent majority' argument ... To OP seems to believe that being elected to the CSM means CCP has to do what he wants, ... Ugh, you do love to prattle on and waste people's time reading what you have to say. I'd rather read Jenn than you any day... |
Prince Kobol
2450
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Posted - 2015.03.06 11:44:59 -
[62] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Serene Repose wrote:If you are running for CSM it's kind of hard to take the side that the CSM is just corporate window dressing. It's corporate window dressing if he doesn't win, it's a vital community resource if he does. The OP (knowing his chances of being elected are next to non-existent) is setting the mental stage to be able to proclaim "it's all a farce, they don't even tell the high sec majority what's going on!" when the inevitable result happens. Such people always use the 'silent majority' argument when trying to rationalize why they aren't getting what they want. Ole Dinsdale was a master of that, because such folks need to believe the fantasy that "a lot of people think like me and are being oppressed by whitey the system". Mainly because believing the reality of the situation ie "I am a fringe lunatic and the truth is that even people who live in high sec like me reject what I believe" is too heart wrenching to even contemplate The problem with the CSM isn't CCP or the CSM, it's the unrealistic expectations of unrealistic EVE players that is the problem. The CSM is the video game version of a Civilian Review Board for a Police Department. It exists as a 'warning' body to be able to tell CCP "hey dudes, don't do a T20 or monoclegate again". Over time mission creep may have given the CSM a bit of 'advocacy panel feel", but it doesn't change what the purpose of the group is. And it doesn't change the group's power (which is effectively zero). The OP seems to believe that being elected to the CSM means CCP has to do what he wants, and that's the irony here, he makes a thread proclaiming that people don't know what the CSM is when he demonstrates a completely incorrect idea of what the CSM is lol.
Whilst some of this is true what really doesn't help the CSM is when they admit to acting like children because somebody said something they didn't agree with.
CSM has never had a great image with the player base and the actions of those few during the last CSM has only further tarnished iimage it's already poor image.
On top of this the NDA also really doesn't help as it makes it virtually impossible for us to see what effect the CSM really does or does or not have. |
Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
1132
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Posted - 2015.03.06 11:55:33 -
[63] - Quote
The fact is most people don't even know they have a voice. This is really the only game that has a public player elected body to represent the player base that the developers approve of. It's unique. People don't understand it.
Yaay!!!!
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
1054
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Posted - 2015.03.06 14:13:48 -
[64] - Quote
BrundleMeth wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: The OP (knowing his chances of being elected are next to non-existent) ... the 'silent majority' argument ...To OP seems to believe that being elected to the CSM means CCP has to do what he wants, ... Ugh, you do love to prattle on and waste people's time reading what you have to say. I'd rather read Jenn than you any day... Some people like pizza and coke, I prefer champaign and strawberries.Phoenix Jones wrote:The fact is most people don't even know they have a voice. This is really the only game that has a public player elected body to represent the player base that the developers approve of. It's unique. People don't understand it. The white papers, evolving nature of it and lack of cenralised, well distributed information by CCP compounds this.
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
1133
|
Posted - 2015.03.06 15:40:47 -
[65] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:BrundleMeth wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: The OP (knowing his chances of being elected are next to non-existent) ... the 'silent majority' argument ...To OP seems to believe that being elected to the CSM means CCP has to do what he wants, ... Ugh, you do love to prattle on and waste people's time reading what you have to say. I'd rather read Jenn than you any day... Some people like pizza and coke, I prefer champaign and strawberries. Phoenix Jones wrote:The fact is most people don't even know they have a voice. This is really the only game that has a public player elected body to represent the player base that the developers approve of. It's unique. People don't understand it. The white papers, evolving nature of it and lack of cenralised, well distributed information by CCP compounds this.
It's as much the player bases fault as it is CCP. CCP isn't the one saying that CSM is useless, pointless, worthless... It's the players. They say it on the forums, they say it on podcasts, in corporations, alliances, news sites, etc. it's up to the players as it is a player elected counsel. If people can't step out of the bubble they are in, and can't get past the trolls who say CSM is pointless, then they won't vote, won't bother, and won't know. People know that most of the eve public have no clue how to vote even if they wanted to. First thing that happens when people ask "how do I vote?" Is the spam by people saying "do it this way and vote for these people". Is the person informed, no. Do they have a voice, it is not theirs.
It is difficult to inform a public on what a group does when a firewall is put up by lobbyists to discourage, disway, confuse, trick or falsely advocate for an organization to get their own agenda's pushed to the forefront. that's politics.
Is CSM important? Yes.
Will people disagree, sure they will. They play the meta more than they play the game.
Yaay!!!!
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
1055
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Posted - 2015.03.06 15:52:57 -
[66] - Quote
Every local linking, as a type of MoTD to an EVE official page, "The CSM is ..." in pedestrian language.
Then people can make their own mind up from there but having to go around telling people that there even IS a CSM is silly. It should be integral knowledge like ships, factions and ammo.
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
1133
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Posted - 2015.03.06 17:26:35 -
[67] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Every local linking, as a type of MoTD to an EVE official page, "The CSM is ..." in pedestrian language.
Then people can make their own mind up from there but having to go around telling people that there even IS a CSM is silly. It should be integral knowledge like ships, factions and ammo.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but advertisements, the o7 show, websites with vote matching, Ingame prizes with announcements as to the CSM, the CSM on the forums, slack, jabber, Twitter, their own section on the forum, tags on the forums and on reddit...
At this point the only thing CCP could do is create a CSM unskippable tutorial and force every player to play through it, do Ingame ads and videos taking up the whole screen with an annoying voice screaming CSM with mandatory clickable links that are required to be clicked before annoying voice ends, or make the people unable to log until they go through an entire "what is the CSM" video session. At that point you could cram it down people's throats and hit them in the head with a sledgehammer and people will still ask wtf a CSM is. Hell CCP holds a yearly conference for the players, filled with thousands of people who are all informed players. Ask them who voted, maybe 5% raise their hands.
I can't see this as a total failure of CCP to inform the public. They are slapping the public in the face with a large trout, then announcing 2 weeks to make a vote vs the one day most people get in real life. The players have no excuse if they choose to be ignorant of the games development as a whole. At what point do you get people to say "ok I have a say, I have a vote".
If there is a person to point at regarding publicizing the CSM, it is not necessarily CCP. Could they go farther? Yes. They could integrate the voting system for CSM directly into the game. But at what point do you say "we've done enough to inform the public, they don't want to know what we do".
The typical average person does not care. The above average person who takes a investment into the game does.
I wish people knew what the CSM is, but for them to do so, they have to take some sort of interest into finding out. It isn't hard.
Yaay!!!!
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Kiandoshia
Applied Anarchy SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2207
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Posted - 2015.03.06 17:36:38 -
[68] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:
I'm not disagreeing with you, but advertisements, the o7 show, websites with vote matching, Ingame prizes with announcements as to the CSM, the CSM on the forums, slack, jabber, Twitter, their own section on the forum, tags on the forums and on reddit...
I would be surprised if the number of people who actually care about and watch/read these things is bigger than the number of people who vote at all. |
Snagletooth Johnson
Aliastra Gallente Federation
239
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Posted - 2015.03.07 11:24:44 -
[69] - Quote
It's all about division. Break everyone up into demographics (voting blocks). Explain to them how they are victims of some other group (voting block), and that you and only you (and the government which you hope to be elected to) can save and protect them from all those evil doers.
If that fails, throw in some promises of monthly checks and watch the votes come roaring in. |
BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
389
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 11:48:46 -
[70] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:BrundleMeth wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: The OP (knowing his chances of being elected are next to non-existent) ... the 'silent majority' argument ...To OP seems to believe that being elected to the CSM means CCP has to do what he wants, ... Ugh, you do love to prattle on and waste people's time reading what you have to say. I'd rather read Jenn than you any day... Some people like pizza and coke, I prefer champaign and strawberries. But then you feed us gruel and sour milk...
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
1064
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Posted - 2015.03.07 20:00:56 -
[71] - Quote
Snagletooth Johnson wrote:It's all about division. Break everyone up into demographics (voting blocks). Explain to them how they are victims of some other group (voting block), and that you and only you (and the government which you hope to be elected to) can save and protect them from all those evil doers.
If that fails, throw in some promises of monthly checks and watch the votes come roaring in. Well here is the weird thing, I am: - in a Null Sec alliance. - asking people to vote first and foremost, take half an hour, read a bit and vote. - asking people to vote for candidates from small corps / alliance - asking people to vote for small corps in worm holes, anything in Low Sec and anything that represents High Sec as those are under represented.
So, in other words, I am asking for people to not vote for people in my position then to confuse them even more, I am going around and trying to get votes from people in all areas of space, so that I represent a cross section of EVE.
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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Snagletooth Johnson
Aliastra Gallente Federation
239
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 22:10:12 -
[72] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Snagletooth Johnson wrote:It's all about division. Break everyone up into demographics (voting blocks). Explain to them how they are victims of some other group (voting block), and that you and only you (and the government which you hope to be elected to) can save and protect them from all those evil doers.
If that fails, throw in some promises of monthly checks and watch the votes come roaring in. Well here is the weird thing, I am: - in a Null Sec alliance. - asking people to vote first and foremost, take half an hour, read a bit and vote. - asking people to vote for candidates from small corps / alliance - asking people to vote for small corps in worm holes, anything in Low Sec and anything that represents High Sec as those are under represented.
*sigh* You're doing it wrong. Fear. Hate. Division...and Free Obama Money, that's how you get people to vote. |
Vapor Ventrillian
The Scope Gallente Federation
643
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Posted - 2015.03.07 22:31:11 -
[73] - Quote
As Overlord Of Np corps I offer my sympathies as I myself have to inform many people that I actually own them...they seem surprised...
I have noticed CSM moving about in their popularity trains and realised an important thing - you need to get away from the train
I expect to be paid and admired for this solution...
-get some comms/chat channel
-make them open(simply ban the trolls and/or the unreasonable)
-answer question in a weekly update get your peeps to direct new people who may not know you and may be critical in your ideas and actively work on their concerns
-and have actual resources to aid organisations that further your ideals in game
-be entertaining
you are welcome and you may get a hold of me via the Scope Project
ps- unfortunately their is a niche community of highly active players that have the time to make their opinion known and widespread in the game, they are not representative of true consensus
The Evil Overlord of Scope, self elected as all good overlords should be
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
1066
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 22:35:05 -
[74] - Quote
Snagletooth Johnson wrote:*sigh* You're doing it wrong. Fear. Hate. Division...and Free Obama Money, that's how you get people to vote. I know but ... I have these stupid ideals that get in the way. If we can't make them happen in a game where there is less vested interest then what hope does reality have?
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
34486
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Posted - 2015.03.07 22:42:58 -
[75] - Quote
Phoenix Jones wrote:Is CSM important? Yes.
Will people disagree, sure they will. They play the meta more than they play the game. Two questions:
1. Why is it important?
2. Why was the CSM originally established and for what purpose?
The answer to the second question informs the answer to the first. To me, it makes the CSM unimportant. It may be important to CCP, but not to players. It's not a tool for us. It's a tool for CCP.
So you can stick me in the group that disagrees, but I also play the game everyday. Less so, the metagame.
But I vote too. Which is kind of stupid. It would be smarter of me not to vote.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
1066
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Posted - 2015.03.07 23:10:01 -
[76] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote: It would be smarter of me not to vote. Like intelligent people having less children because there is more competition and they are considering the risks?
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
34498
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Posted - 2015.03.07 23:16:32 -
[77] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote: It would be smarter of me not to vote. Like intelligent people having less children because there is more competition and they are considering the risks? No. Because looking at either extreme as a simple thought experiment:
- If 100% of players voted, that would be a strong sign that the CSM is relevant and important - If not a single vote was cast, it would be a strong message that none of the players care about the CSM
Since I sit more in the second group, that view the CSM as a very poor tool for most players, adding to the vote count kind of undermines my own view.
The lack of community engagement in the process has been a message that CCP have received in recent campaigns through falling voter count. For me personally, the best approach of anyone that wants change would be to not vote at all.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
1066
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 23:18:18 -
[78] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote: It would be smarter of me not to vote. Like intelligent people having less children because there is more competition and they are considering the risks? No. Because looking at either extreme as a simple thought experiment: - If 100% of players voted, that would be a strong sign that the CSM is relevant and important - If not a single vote was cast, it would be a strong message that none of the players care about the CSM Since I sit more in the second group, that view the CSM as a very poor tool for most players, adding to the vote count kind of undermines my own view. At most, 10% are voting. That isn't stopping CCP listening to the results.
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
34498
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 23:22:40 -
[79] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:At most, 10% are voting. That isn't stopping CCP listening to the results.
Yeah, see the addition to my previous post.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Spurty
Dimension Door We need wards.
1433
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Posted - 2015.03.07 23:30:55 -
[80] - Quote
In EVE, the philosophy is "Adapt or die".
Everything revolves around this. Its why we are where we are and why we are heading where we are heading.
The latest change of environment are based on the resulting adaptation of the entities within the environment, from the previous change.
I really shouldn't drink and forum post.
No one wants the truth.
There are good ships
And wood ships
And ships that sail the sea
But the best ships are
Spaceships
Built by CCP
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Commander Spurty
Dimension Door We need wards.
1435
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Posted - 2015.03.07 23:30:55 -
[81] - Quote
In EVE, the philosophy is "Adapt or die".
Everything revolves around this. Its why we are where we are and why we are heading where we are heading.
The latest change of environment are based on the resulting adaptation of the entities within the environment, from the previous change.
I really shouldn't drink and forum post.
No one wants the truth.
There are good ships
And wood ships
And ships that sail the sea
But the best ships are
Spaceships
Built by CCP
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
1067
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 00:00:06 -
[82] - Quote
Commander Spurty wrote:In EVE, the philosophy is "Adapt or die".Everything revolves around this. Its why we are where we are and why we are heading where we are heading.The latest change of environment are based on the resulting adaptation of the entities within the environment, from the previous change. I really shouldn't drink and forum post. No one wants the truth. The pond adapts until you pour radioactive material into it.
Scipio Artelius wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:At most, 10% are voting. That isn't stopping CCP listening to the results.
Yeah, see the addition to my previous post. Part of my platform is working with the system to bring about some other vote options such as, "Abstain," "I have no faith in the CSM" and so forth.
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
34507
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Posted - 2015.03.08 00:14:37 -
[83] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Part of my platform is working with the system to bring about some other vote options such as, "Abstain," "I have no faith in the CSM" and so forth. Your platform?
The CSM isn't an advocate of change or leadership in the community.
It's a focus group.
It gives feedback to CCP on CCPs ideas. It doesn't propose ideas for CCP to implement.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Vapor Ventrillian
The Scope Gallente Federation
652
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 00:15:30 -
[84] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:At most, 10% are voting. That isn't stopping CCP listening to the results.
Yeah, see the addition to my previous post. Part of my platform is working with the system to bring about some other vote options such as, "Abstain," "I have no faith in the CSM" and so forth.[/quote] <--- um what!?
I like and the result of that option would be a refreshing insight to the CSM system
The Evil Overlord of Scope, self elected as all good overlords should be
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
1067
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Posted - 2015.03.08 01:04:33 -
[85] - Quote
If you have 10% shouting, "Listen to this guy," then you should let the 90% say, "No, don't listen to them." If there is a year without CSM and CCP go totally crazy then the following year more people will vote and run for elections.
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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Cancel Align NOW
Greater Order Of Destruction The Good Christian Society
470
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Posted - 2015.03.08 02:45:28 -
[86] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:If you have 10% shouting, "Listen to this guy," then you should let the 90% say, "No, don't listen to them." If there is a year without CSM and CCP go totally crazy then the following year more people will vote and run for elections.
1. Who is shouting? My vote is not a brash yell of rabble it is a considered decision to support those with whom I glean to share opinions on what is good for Eve Online.
2. Why should any one who chooses to abstain from an active process be given a voice in that process?
3. The cause and effect argument you put forward is at best tenuous if CCP go totally crazy I believe there will be significantly less people voting for the CSM next year because the user base and specifically the user base that cares about Eve Online enough to be involved in the CSM process will have cancelled their subscriptions. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
1067
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 03:14:22 -
[87] - Quote
Cancel Align NOW wrote:... because the user base and specifically the user base that cares about Eve Online enough to be involved in the CSM process will have cancelled their subscriptions. Have we got any studies on those people? Maybe it would be good for the game? I know with Anarchy Online, they had a very vocal PVP minority that Funcom were listening to, while it consistently kept impacting and ruining PVE.
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
|
Snagletooth Johnson
Aliastra Gallente Federation
240
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 10:48:44 -
[88] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Phoenix Jones wrote:Is CSM important? Yes.
Will people disagree, sure they will. They play the meta more than they play the game. Two questions: 1. Why is it important? 2. Why was the CSM originally established and for what purpose? The answer to the second question informs the answer to the first. To me, it makes the CSM unimportant. It may be important to CCP, but not to players. It's not a tool for us. It's a tool for CCP. So you can stick me in the group that disagrees, but I also play the game everyday. Less so, the metagame. But I vote anyway. Which is kind of stupid. It would be smarter of me not to.
George, is that you? |
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
33979
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 10:55:34 -
[89] - Quote
Carmen Electra wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:For the vast majority of people that play this game, it's just a casual thing. Space is not serious business.
Why would they care about the CSM? It's hard enough to get people to vote IRL voting IRL means going places that are outside of people's basements.
voting for CSM is just pressing a few buttons. you don't have to go anywhere and use real paper with real ink and then put it in a real box.
Founder of the Graycember movement and LAGL's pet cat.
Critically Preposterous is recruiting! please send evemail if interested.
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Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
33979
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 10:58:34 -
[90] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Cancel Align NOW wrote:... because the user base and specifically the user base that cares about Eve Online enough to be involved in the CSM process will have cancelled their subscriptions. Have we got any studies on those people? Maybe it would be good for the game? I know with Anarchy Online, they had a very vocal PVP minority that Funcom were listening to, while it consistently kept impacting and ruining PVE. PvE in EVE is enough of a joke already. no need to compare it to Anarchy.
Founder of the Graycember movement and LAGL's pet cat.
Critically Preposterous is recruiting! please send evemail if interested.
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