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Nivin Sajjad
Resurrection Ventures Un.Bound
2
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Posted - 2015.02.27 16:47:55 -
[1] - Quote
Despite the lack of changes to these ship classes in the next patch, the topic was considered important enough to get its own section in the devblog. So can we please get a sticky discussion thread about this too? If CCP is willing to receive feedback on other proposed changes, I feel like they should also be open to receive feedback on the lack of proposed changes to battleships and battlecruisers.
Personally I feel like CCP's own graph is showing BS and BCs aren't actually in that great of a place. BC total PVP damage is clearly floundering compared to cruisers and even much lower dps per ship frigates, while due to the usually higher damage per ship, the BS is actually showing lower usage numbers than the graph would suggest. This is making me draw the exact opposite conclusion of CCP when looking at the same graph.
Regardless of whether you agree or not, I still feel like this is important enough to be extensively discussed, rather than be treated as a done deal before the patch is even out. |
Lt Shard
Team Pizza
2
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Posted - 2015.02.27 17:08:14 -
[2] - Quote
Please. Graphs often lies, CCP. Break down the battleship use in locations and type of battleship used. You'll probably find the Mega soaking up most of the damage graph while other battleships just cant shine.
I can't speak on warp speed all too much due to living in w-space but I can speak volumes on how easily a dreadnought can hit them.
Irrelevant but; AFs are also a class that needs a look at. |
Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
1124
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Posted - 2015.02.27 17:15:43 -
[3] - Quote
Wasn't the mention of BS's basically restricted to "We are fine with where they are atm"?
Creating a sticky thread would just be a cesspit of people rabblerousing going "I don't like the lack of BS buffs, CCP change your mind about BS's and buff them!"
Oh and half the page is already covered in stickies, and we are likely to get more next week. I'd like there to actually be some F&I threads on the F&I front page.. |
Lt Shard
Team Pizza
2
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Posted - 2015.02.27 17:20:54 -
[4] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Wasn't the mention of BS's basically restricted to "We are fine with where they are atm"?
Creating a sticky thread would just be a cesspit of people rabblerousing going "I don't like the lack of BS buffs, CCP change your mind about BS's and buff them!"
Oh and half the page is already covered in stickies, and we are likely to get more next week. I'd like there to actually be some F&I threads on the F&I front page..
Few patches ago sticky threads reached page two. CCP overlooked something important and we need people to tell them that did. |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
579
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Posted - 2015.02.27 17:26:05 -
[5] - Quote
Never trust a graph that you didn't scew to your advantage to make a point.
Sure if we look at all the vindicators and Nightmares in incursions and other battleships that do level 4 missions, battleships turn out awesome.
Now if you would look at a small gang in nullsec that brings a Megathron that is bombed of the field on entering grid, they don't look that good anymore..
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Nivin Sajjad
Resurrection Ventures Un.Bound
2
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Posted - 2015.02.27 17:29:05 -
[6] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Wasn't the mention of BS's basically restricted to "We are fine with where they are atm"?
Creating a sticky thread would just be a cesspit of people rabblerousing going "I don't like the lack of BS buffs, CCP change your mind about BS's and buff them!"
Oh and half the page is already covered in stickies, and we are likely to get more next week. I'd like there to actually be some F&I threads on the F&I front page.. CCP is fine with a lot of other things in game, yet this was the only area supposedly requiring no change that got its own graph based justification and writeup in the devblog. If it's that important to convince people that things are fine, then it deserves its own discussion thread for the players to actually come together and work out whether CCP's reasoning is sound or not.
If it really is going to turn into a cesspool, then I don't see the reason for any other sticky thread either. Isn't it just all going to be filled with rabblerousers telling CCP to unnerf this or that rather than buff this or that?
Yet CCP sees value in creating such threads. So why not this topic as well? |
Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
1124
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Posted - 2015.02.27 17:39:11 -
[7] - Quote
Nivin Sajjad wrote: Yet CCP sees value in creating such threads. So why not this topic as well?
Mostly because if they saw any value in such a thread and were open to potential change on the topic at this time, they would have created it...
They tend to be open to discussion up until the point where they say "Working as intended, in a good spot." And then anyone who disagrees is basically SoL.
I'd guess that CCP has some fairly serious plans regarding Sov rework (starting early next week), capital rebalancing, and industry rebalancing, and that it's all slated for more or less the immediate future.
If CCP has stated they think the BS class is in a good place and not created a sticky thread on it, it's because they likely don't have any plans to go back over another BS rebalancing pass anytime soon, and so don't see a need to leave up a BS discussion sticky for months and months until they revisit the issue. |
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
267
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Posted - 2015.02.27 18:02:17 -
[8] - Quote
I'd like to see where and for what purpose battleships are being used for in those graphs. I'm curious to see how much they're used in lowsec and highsec compared to null, and how much of their overall pvp damage is structure bashing.
I am happy about the other proposed changes though, it's kind of a buff for battleships (and all other ships.) |
Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
176
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Posted - 2015.02.27 18:36:40 -
[9] - Quote
Echoing lots of valid points raised with how the numbers are analyzed.
It would seem that perhaps a few circumstances where there are a lot of battleships shooting a lot of things may tilt the usage numbers. Or how often BS are used within say, 5 jumps of their origin/ were bridged. If you exclude people using them to mission, and exclude, say conflicts of 100 players or more, I'd imagine battleship usage is actually dismal. Everyone's perception being communally wrong seems unlikely.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1439
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Posted - 2015.02.27 18:41:28 -
[10] - Quote
CCP is not changing any number of things in EvE this patch. Do they all deserve stickies too?
My Many Misadventures
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I seek to create content, not become content.
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Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
1125
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Posted - 2015.02.27 19:09:35 -
[11] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Echoing lots of valid points raised with how the numbers are analyzed.
It would seem that perhaps a few circumstances where there are a lot of battleships shooting a lot of things may tilt the usage numbers. Or how often BS are used within say, 5 jumps of their origin/ were bridged. If you exclude people using them to mission, and exclude, say conflicts of 100 players or more, I'd imagine battleship usage is actually dismal. Everyone's perception being communally wrong seems unlikely.
Are all ships supposed to be highly used in all sections of space? Why os only BS usage that's not close to home, and not used in large groups counted for use?
I believe that the graphs were only PvP damage inflicted anyway, so the missioning part is out.
But the statement, "BS's are only used close to home or in large groups or in missions, but since I don't frequently them anywhere else, their use must be dismal" is rather odd.
Are BS's good in roaming gangs? No, they are too slow to avoid being hunted down and easily kited once caught. That would apply even if their warp speed was increased to 3au/sec.
Are they often used in WH's? Only in primarily non DPS situations like closing WH's (which wouldn't show up as dps), neuting bhalls/geddons (which wouldn't show up as DPS), and ECM (which wouldn't show up as dps). I keep seeing them show up on killmails for lowsec capitals, so they are getting at least some use there.
So yeah, BS groups are used primarily in situations where you bring sufficient backup that their lower mobility is traded for local superiority through firepower and defense. Is this a surprise?
Is there any proposal that doesn't involve boosting them to near cruiser levels of agility and warp capability that people think is going to magically make them popular solo PvP ships or roaming gang choices?
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Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.02.27 20:04:13 -
[12] - Quote
I have a question for Devs. Did the chart that showed ship usuage statistics include Battleship usage for Tower hitting / Incursions/and other PVE related activities?
If so then I don't believe the graph provided is indicative of Battleship PVP usage (no I do not count shooting towers as actual PVP).
Yes I'm biased because I want to see changes to both BS/BC hulls but I also want know if CCP's statistical information is screwed due to PVE activities where the BS maybe fine. |
Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
1125
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Posted - 2015.02.27 20:07:54 -
[13] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:I have a question for Devs. Did the chart that showed ship usuage statistics include Battleship usage for Tower hitting / Incursions/and other PVE related activities?
If so then I don't believe the graph provided is indicative of Battleship PVP usage (no I do not count shooting towers as actual PVP).
Yes I'm biased because I want to see changes to both BS/BC hulls but I also want know if CCP's statistical information is screwed due to PVE activities where the BS maybe fine.
If we were to remove the DPS done by BS's to Towers, we would have to also remove the trillions of structure HP ground down by Ishtars in the cruisers category.
Do you think that the comparison is going to make BS's look less used once you remove all the structure bashing from all of the ship categories?
The graph did not include PvE in incursions or missions or against NPC's, only against other players and structures.
P.S: The current main fleets for my alliance and our allies is Tempest Fleet Issues and Ravens. There is a considerable amount of BS use in PvP in larger fleets, especially for operations fairly close to home. |
Vic Jefferson
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
176
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Posted - 2015.02.27 20:10:19 -
[14] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Is there any proposal that doesn't involve boosting them to near cruiser levels of agility and warp capability that people think is going to make them popular solo PvP ships or roaming gang choices?
Probably not, and I don't think that many people are really want that.
It's just that charts can hide details. Like if the majority of BS damage is to other BS and/or PoS, then even if they are doing lots of raw "PvP" damage, it sort of shows how narrow their usage is. I can see where they want to squirrel capital ships to only really be relevant to other capitals, but to have this be this way for any of the subcaps seems titled.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
102
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Posted - 2015.02.27 20:52:04 -
[15] - Quote
Well we all know how over-used the Ishtars are, so how about we fix one thing at a time and see where everything else settles?
They hit the Ishtar with CCP Nerfbat, so now some of those people will fly something else... let's chillax and see where the balance ends up.
First rule of fixing a problem... don't fix several things at once, cause then when it is still broken (but in a different way) you have to undo stuff and take more time to get it working again. |
Lin Fatale
Mechanized Industrial Warfare Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
26
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Posted - 2015.02.27 21:19:02 -
[16] - Quote
without knowing how the graph was calculated it is useless, you can spin it in every direction
you can also spin, frigs in the graph did ~double the damage than BC if you count that frigs only do 20% of the damage of a BC, would mean people spent 10x times in frigs than in BCs
working as intend? welcome to frig online?
I like the small fights in ships bigger than a frig. But in todays meta, not really a good option to fly BCs in small gang. To many counters, to less options to split enemy gangs.
so for me warpspeed diffrences are much to big
what are the reason that you think, BC will be OP if they get a bit more warpspeed?
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