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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
4915
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Posted - 2015.02.27 10:51:01 -
[1] - Quote
In Scylla we are deploying a set of high-impact balance changes.
This thread is for discussing a proposed changed to the Ishtar. We are planning to split it's drone damage bonus in to two bonuses so that we can lower the bonus to sentry damage. It would look like this:
Old bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage
New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage
This change is being made to encourage diversity in ship choice across EVE. The Ishtar has proven strong enough with its current bonus set to dominate in many environments and we want to make sure there is plenty of room for ship choice other than the Ishtar. We came to this decision using a combination of internal metrics, community feedback and by using EFT like everyone else.
Too much? Too little? Let us know.
@ccp_rise
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
15245
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Posted - 2015.02.27 10:55:53 -
[2] - Quote
Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely.
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Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill A Nest of Vipers
127
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:02:16 -
[3] - Quote
To be honst I think that the dps itself was not the problem but rather the ability to deploy sentries and GTFO.
Anyway lets just see what impact this change has on isthars online. |
Kailen Thorn
Common Sense Ltd Nulli Secunda
16
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:03:31 -
[4] - Quote
Will this not just hurt the small scale gangs employing sentries as their meta?
If a blob has sentries deployed, the damage Nerf is not going to matter as they will use their numbers to kill the target anyway. Maybe slow down capital deaths by a few seconds
Is this a knee jerk reaction to a graph? The damage is massive because the wide spread use of massive. Make them less good in another way and that overall damage will drop as someone else takes the FOTM |
Capqu
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
998
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:06:58 -
[5] - Quote
17% damage reduction doesn't seem like it will fix the massive imbalance in damage done
when the drake got gutted them main thing targeted was application, and i think you should look at that for the ishtar too
its simply too good at all different kinds of ranges
bouncers have crazy range and tracking at that range gardes have battleship damage and cruiser tracking pve wise wasps have frigate tracking and battleship damage and you can be afk and have warpcore stabs fit so there really isnt any reason to use any other ship [other than a vexor navy because its the same thing but cheaper LOL]
honestly 17% damage off the top of the sentry part seems irrelevant in on a ship which had battleship damage and yet its main imbalance is was flexibility
why can it fit and run 100mn AB with no fitting mods btw? it has fitting/cap regen for guns yet does not need to fit them, i think addressing this would help
edit: im not suggesting gutting it like fozzie did to the drake, which was clearly terrible and resulted in a useless ship [and weapon sysem] but i do think harsher treatment is necessary here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
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Swanky nutjob
The Scope Gallente Federation
15
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:07:16 -
[6] - Quote
Why did you not nerf it's tracking? The damage it's done is exponentially higher than everything else but not just because it can deal plenty of damage with a BS sized weapon system, but because it can hit too well with them against a majority of targets. Reducing sentry tracking would have answered both problems.
Also, please do something about it's fitting, the ship is far to easy to fit. |
Damjan Fox
Fox Industries and Exploration
105
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:11:01 -
[7] - Quote
Quote:Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely.
Was about to post the same. The damage is not the problem, but the damage projection over crazy ranges. Removing the sentry bonus entirely, would be my suggestion, too. (And mabye descrease the fitting capabilites a little) |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1639
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:12:51 -
[8] - Quote
drone bay is still too big
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Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
214
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:18:30 -
[9] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely.
This |
Aladar Dangerface
Absolutely Certain
146
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:18:45 -
[10] - Quote
Projection is the issue, step in the right direcion but not far enough
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Aiyshimin
Fistful of Finns Triumvirate.
404
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:19:09 -
[11] - Quote
This will achieve the goal of making Ishtars less useful, but unfortunately does nothing to make other ships useful. Range and speed are overpowered in EVE, and only doctrines with damage projection and mobility work.
In other words, people will just use the next platform that outranges others while remaining mobile, leaving whole shipclasses gathering dust in hangars.
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Anthar Thebess
891
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:28:31 -
[12] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
Old bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage
New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage
Good direction. But i think something more can be done.
Old bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage
New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 10% bonus to Garde hitpoints and damage [/quote]
So no bonus to Wardens / Curators / Bouncers at all. If we move to specific type bonus we can have much bigger possibilities for specific hulls , and make amarr ships have additional bonus to EM drones, Caldari to Kinetic , and minmatar to Bouncers.
This could put life to many not used ships.
Ishtars are OP , but also provide good hull for smaller alliances in terms of structure grinding. Garde range , or should i say lack of it , will keep isthars viable dps platforms for structure grinding while removing almost all what made them broken now.
Capital Remote AID Rebalance
Way to solve important nullsec issue. CSM members do your work.
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Corben Arctus
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
26
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:31:26 -
[13] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:This will achieve the goal of making Ishtars less useful, but unfortunately does nothing to make other ships useful. Range and speed are overpowered in EVE, and only doctrines with damage projection and mobility work.
In other words, people will just use the next platform that outranges others while remaining mobile, leaving whole shipclasses gathering dust in hangars.
This. |
Luscius Uta
128
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:41:03 -
[14] - Quote
Sentry and heavy drones are often wieved as Battleship-sized "weapons" and ability to field them as a reason to Ishtar's imbalance. However, 125 m^3 drone bandwidth and 10 %/level bonus to drone damage and HP enough cannot be that reason, as it's also present on plenty of other (non-unbalanced) ships, including the old Ishtar. It's the new sentry specific bonus that broke Ishtar.
So I would revert the Ishtar to its pre-HAC rebalance version which wasn't broken but was still a great, dedicated droneboat, meaning that bandwidth and damage should stay to be the same but sentry and heavy-specific bonuses should go away. Few things (compared to its old version) I would still change though - give it a bit more CPU as I remember it being terribly low and replace the drone bay bonus (which should be implemented to the hull itself) with a drone microwarpdrive velocity (5% per HAC skill level) bonus. Otherwise everyone will just switch to VNIs.
I'm not fat, I'm just over-tanked!
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Arla Sarain
319
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:57:46 -
[15] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:This will achieve the goal of making Ishtars less useful, but unfortunately does nothing to make other ships useful. Range and speed are overpowered in EVE, and only doctrines with damage projection and mobility work.
In other words, people will just use the next platform that outranges others while remaining mobile, leaving whole shipclasses gathering dust in hangars.
This again. |
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
869
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Posted - 2015.02.27 11:58:49 -
[16] - Quote
Good start!
Targeting, Sensors and ECM Overhaul
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
983
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:04:58 -
[17] - Quote
It seems that this won't change much in that a 17% reduction in dps mean that the blobs will simply bring 20% more ishtars just to be sure.
Perhaps drop the damage and hitpoints bonus from sentries entirely and instead apply it as a velocity and tracking bonus to heavies. This would put the emphasis on using mobile drones that makes sense given the mobility of the hull and give more of a reason to use heavies since they would be nearer to mediums in speed and tracking but the hull would need to be at greater risk to make use of them. |
Ix Method
META Directorate Talos Coalition
420
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:06:24 -
[18] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely. Seriously. Wouldn't swopping Ishtar/Eos to Heavies/Sentries pretty much fire this problem into the sun?
Travelling at the speed of love.
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1006
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:08:02 -
[19] - Quote
do something to push it toward armour tanking |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
758
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:10:24 -
[20] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:do something to push it toward armour tanking
A mid to a low would do that nicely. |
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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
906
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:11:54 -
[21] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: This change is being made to encourage diversity in ship choice across EVE. The Ishtar has proven strong enough with its current bonus set to dominate in many environments and we want to make sure there is plenty of room for ship choice other than the Ishtar. We came to this decision using a combination of internal metrics, community feedback and by using EFT like everyone else.
Too much? Too little? Let us know.
Personally I detest ishtars and everything they stand for in the current meta - its an analog of campers in an FPS game to me... however to really encourage diversity would mean making some of the other HACs a bit more interesting - I look at the vagabond, muninn, etc. and see little reason to actually fly them in todays eve whether the ishtar got deleted tomorrow or not. |
Jonhy Tse
Three Stars Association
0
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:16:49 -
[22] - Quote
Hi, just want to know if this idea was already suggested :
Instead of trying to nerf Ishtar directly, why not making sentry drones a warpable item like a can or wreck?
It can give interesting counter against Ishtar, can realy affect the choice of taking a set of sentry or a set of heavy.
No difference for PvE players and make the sentry a powerful but dangerous choice of drone for PvP
Thanks to stop me if I'm saying something stupid. |
Alexhandr Shkarov
Swamphole Inc.
8
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:20:26 -
[23] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage
I'd much rather see the 5% to sentry bonuses get adjusted to something else, perhaps a bonus to heavy drone microwarpdrive speed? Makes them a little more aggressive in engaging and switching? |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
906
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:21:24 -
[24] - Quote
Jonhy Tse wrote:Hi, just want to know if this idea was already suggested :
Instead of trying to nerf Ishtar directly, why not making sentry drones a warpable item like a can or wreck?
It can give interesting counter against Ishtar, can realy affect the choice of taking a set of sentry or a set of heavy.
No difference for PvE players and make the sentry a powerful but dangerous choice of drone for PvP
Thanks to stop me if I'm saying something stupid.
Its an interesting idea, I certainly wouldn't dismiss the potential there though a common use of ishtars + sentries is to drop them then MWD away. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
758
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:26:37 -
[25] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Jonhy Tse wrote:Hi, just want to know if this idea was already suggested :
Instead of trying to nerf Ishtar directly, why not making sentry drones a warpable item like a can or wreck?
It can give interesting counter against Ishtar, can realy affect the choice of taking a set of sentry or a set of heavy.
No difference for PvE players and make the sentry a powerful but dangerous choice of drone for PvP
Thanks to stop me if I'm saying something stupid. Its an interesting idea, I certainly wouldn't dismiss the potential there though a common use of ishtars + sentries is to drop them then MWD away.
It's less common more guaranteed the minute the enemy is on field. It is the entire premise of the doctrines. Use the ishtar movement to pull the enemy into optimal range of the sentries.
The ONLY time ishtars sit near their drones is if you know the enemy can only muster bombers as you pound the structure so you can rescoop quickly.
I guess it would make them more vulnerable to a couple of disco ships warping in to destroy the cloud, but that's easy to mitigate by staggered deployment. |
Alexhandr Shkarov
Swamphole Inc.
8
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:34:53 -
[26] - Quote
Jonhy Tse wrote:Hi, just want to know if this idea was already suggested :
Instead of trying to nerf Ishtar directly, why not making sentry drones a warpable item like a can or wreck?
It can give interesting counter against Ishtar, can realy affect the choice of taking a set of sentry or a set of heavy.
No difference for PvE players and make the sentry a powerful but dangerous choice of drone for PvP
Thanks to stop me if I'm saying something stupid.
It would work in major fleetfights, though at that point if they are clumped all you'd need is a bunch of buffer tanked smartbomb Rokhs. Blow the drones out of the sky, suddenly the ship loses all of it's damage potential. Not sure if I agree with that per s+¬. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi
1250
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:35:48 -
[27] - Quote
In my opinion, you should leave the damage as it is and simply remove the tracking and range bonus for sentries in Ishtars. In other words, apply an Armageddon like bonus structure to Sentries on Ishtars.
This leaves the Ishtar intact for combat against things like structures and capitals (maybe even BS if webbed properly), but removes the viability of Sentry Ishtars against all other mobile ships.
Station Tab :: Agent Shuffling :: Double Standing Gain
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Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2736
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:36:06 -
[28] - Quote
Ishtars need to lose complete Sentry drone support bonuses, also move a mid to a low slot to encourage armor tanking. |
TinkerHell
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
138
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:36:29 -
[29] - Quote
I personally would rather see sentrys removed from all ships below BS size. However i am not a fan of straight up nerfs to ships either.
I thought something along the lines of giving it an extra 2.5% damage for light, med, heavy drones per level to compensate for its loss of sentrys drones and switching the the sentry optimal range bonus to 5% gun dmg bonus to ALL sized hybrid guns could make it a more interesting close ranged ship. |
Crysantos Callahan
Control-Space DARKNESS.
30
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Posted - 2015.02.27 12:37:36 -
[30] - Quote
I think you should do more about the Ishtar. Do you really think a 10% -> 5% nerf is a reason or incentive to use different ships? No, why should people. The Ishtar is so popular because it can deploy multiple flights of drones, use a lot of utility and tank mods - while it has an awesome damage projection over huge range. Now the damage got nerfed a bit, the other things are still true.
If CCP wants to keep it this way, fine (although I'd like to see a tracking/range nerf like most other people). But at least nerf the drone bay down to 175-225 m3. This way the Ishtar is useful as it is right now, has its perks but also the downside of remote dps that can be killed off. I'd still add in a smaller CPU nerf to make fittings a bit tighter or take of the drone control range bonus.
Get it more in line with the other HACs, this baby nerf won't change the meta or shift the balance of the HACs. Ishtars are still as useful as before. |
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