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xeom
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.09.27 21:35:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Kiriz Zule
My counter point would be...
Any alliance that cannot deal with 3 vagabonds should not be able to throw isk at the problem via AI sentry guns with hopes that it will go away. Which, by the way in the case of 3 vagas, it won't cause vagas will be fast enough to avoid the sents anyways so you will still be in docknloglockdown when they enter the system.
The problem you describe is not about sentries or cowardly pirates at all.. It's about poor organization, lethargic play and the alliance mentality of everyone npc and get rich while no one defends. What you really need is an automatic sensor beacon for your alliance setup completely surrounding your space that puts out an alliance wide broadcast similar to the following.
/eve chick voice on
Greetings MegaAlliance
There are 3 cowardly vagabonds approaching. They entered from gate a and exited thru gate b. Outpost system C is their likley destination. I suggest you put a dictor bubble on gate d and get some people with scrams and webs to lock them down and kill them when they jump in.
/signed But 100% intel isn't realy the option either. But something around that would work. ---
CCP how about the pith X & A mods? "Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
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Victoria Zongo
Derelik Privateers
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Posted - 2006.09.27 21:36:00 -
[62]
Yes, it seems like 0.0 is getting dumbed down heavily. Kind of sad .. As if watching local or using a scout would be such a hard thing to do ..
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Dr Slaughter
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.27 21:41:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Dr Slaughter on 27/09/2006 21:42:10 Edited by: Dr Slaughter on 27/09/2006 21:41:16 Personally I hope the sentry guns can only -edit- BE -edit- placed around the outposts (not the star gates). This would resolve the daft situation of having to ask 'is it clear outside' when wanting to undock, plus how the **** can it be totally safe warping to an enemy outpost but not to POS.
Not sure about having them at stargates though. We want fresh pirates to shoot at not half beat up ones.
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Locke DieDrake
Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.09.27 21:41:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Coran Ordus I think the sentry guns should lean towards the expensive/fragile side. (A bit, don't want to make them totally useless.) The idea being that an alliance would put some up in key/home systems that are busy, so that the guns would provide them an edge in holding them and keeping them secure. But the cost/destructability would deter them from being just tossed around everywhere.
So yes, pirates would have a harder time slipping into main systems, but roving around and/or ganking travellers would be mostly unaffected.
They tried that with POS's but we still get POS spam.
It's almost impossible to balance something price wise in this game. Since there are regions like down south with complexes worth billions a day. Or ratting systems like up north where you can easily bank 1bn in 23 hours just ratting. And those are more or less singluar activities.
Forget about trying to balance isk/time when some corps do uber mining ops twice a week and take in unreal amounts of isk. While others spend their time hunting up some PVP, and usually not finding it.
Each constellation should have a hard limit of the number of sentry guns that are placeable there. No matter what.
___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
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Gorion Wassenar
Caldari Tsurokigaarai Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.09.27 22:01:00 -
[65]
All I hear is
"OMG I can't come and go as I please in someone's claimed territory that they spent endless anounts of effort to get!"
They are *not* going to be the WTFPWN Empire sentries. Get a grip guys. ------------------
CEO of TKI
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Coran Ordus
Ominous Corp Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2006.09.27 22:05:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Locke DieDrake Each constellation should have a hard limit of the number of sentry guns that are placeable there. No matter what.
Good point. Solves the problem more absolutely (although a tad artificially) than incentive/disincentive ploys.
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Krist Valentine
Amarr Bad Omen Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.27 22:13:00 -
[67]
It sounds like trouble. To me, it seems like this'll be more ubergank or ubertank BS play, with little or no opportunity for the smaller ships to get around because guess what? There's the equivalent of an AFK Gatecamp at the chokepoint. Brill. - - - - - Yarr? |
Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.09.27 22:16:00 -
[68]
Originally by: xeom
You wan't to sit behind a fort and NPC+Mine i want to pvp.So clearly there should be a option on my side to eh?
Your option is to destroy the sentry guns.
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Izo Azlion
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.09.27 22:18:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Gorion Wassenar All I hear is
"OMG I can't come and go as I please in someone's claimed territory that they spent endless anounts of effort to get!"
They are *not* going to be the WTFPWN Empire sentries. Get a grip guys.
Thats ignorance. Up till now the thread has been a pretty good discussion.... dont turn it, please.
Izo Azlion.
---
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Major Stormer
Caldari Demon Womb Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2006.09.27 22:22:00 -
[70]
System defences should shoot:
People who are -10 to whoever controls the guns
War Targets
People who have attacked people who the guns belong to in the last 15 minutes. --------------------------
AHH the Stupid forum DELETED(!) all my mod chat in my sig when i added this image :( |
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Gorion Wassenar
Caldari Tsurokigaarai Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.09.27 22:22:00 -
[71]
Ignorant? Who's the one asuming they will be the Empire level guns? I am pretty sure that they are not going to be anywhere near as powerful as the POS guns or Empire Sentries. I am making a guess here that they will be something along the lines of Sentry drones in terms of damage and HP. ------------------
CEO of TKI
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Kiriz Zule
Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2006.09.27 22:36:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Kiriz Zule on 27/09/2006 22:40:34
Originally by: Gorion Wassenar Ignorant? Who's the one asuming they will be the Empire level guns? I am pretty sure that they are not going to be anywhere near as powerful as the POS guns or Empire Sentries. I am making a guess here that they will be something along the lines of Sentry drones in terms of damage and HP.
So you are allowed the luxury to guess they will be weak while others are not allowed the luxury to guess they will be strong? If a dev has stated the guns proposed strength in relative terms(such as your sentry drone example), please in form us as that is part of the problem we are having with this argument; we just don't know how much they cost, how much dps, how much tank, how fast to lock these things are.
Edit: Forgot to add the cost element.
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Lifewire
Caldari TunDraGon
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Posted - 2006.09.27 22:43:00 -
[73]
Player owned gate guns are a two-sided sword. Pirates can also use those to cut of a region.
But if 0.0 gate sentry guns really come, this is seriously the most stupid thing DEVs ever did. 0.0 is meant to be PVP space. Automated kills with sentry guns just cause boredome for all involved people. In the end alliances will have their guns in their core systems and pirates will have theirs on the chokepoints. And all we have to do is to log on and check our killmails, then log off.
Some people allreay run their POS as gank-station. Once this can happen to gates - good n8 EVE!
However - rumours are rumours and patch is patch. Let them come!
Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/ Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/
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shadyfox99
Caldari Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2006.09.27 22:57:00 -
[74]
First, I love how the people who make 100 man blobs call the people who engage against the odds the cowards. (I am speaking from only my personal expereince, with my corp. Again i'm not saying no one in snigg flys vagas, but we hardly, form my knowledge, come, gank, and log). I understand your frustration with someone who comes, kills, then logs, thats different and like it was said before that is not piracy.
I've never flown a vaga, and i've never pvp'ed with stabs, so when I can go somewhere, kill and 'try' to loot the cargo, and get out, how is that unfair? Its not my fault that an entire alliance can't stop me. Putting up sentries, wherever it is, is only going to make me go towards using really fast, stabbed up ships, so i can get through the sentries.
I think it would make sense to be able to put sentries around an outpost (even though they are invulnerable anyway) but putting sentries on gates is nerfing piracy too much. Alliances SHOULD be vulnerable to small gangs or even single pilots.
Originally by: HostageTaker
Use your brain and use your main! OMFG I just rhymed!
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Locke DieDrake
Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.09.27 23:09:00 -
[75]
Originally by: shadyfox99 First, I love how the people who make 100 man blobs call the people who engage against the odds the cowards. (I am speaking from only my personal expereince, with my corp. Again i'm not saying no one in snigg flys vagas, but we hardly, form my knowledge, come, gank, and log). I understand your frustration with someone who comes, kills, then logs, thats different and like it was said before that is not piracy.
I've never flown a vaga, and i've never pvp'ed with stabs, so when I can go somewhere, kill and 'try' to loot the cargo, and get out, how is that unfair? Its not my fault that an entire alliance can't stop me. Putting up sentries, wherever it is, is only going to make me go towards using really fast, stabbed up ships, so i can get through the sentries.
I think it would make sense to be able to put sentries around an outpost (even though they are invulnerable anyway) but putting sentries on gates is nerfing piracy too much. Alliances SHOULD be vulnerable to small gangs or even single pilots.
You should have realized by now that the only effective way to catch most "pirates" in alliance territory is A) blob up, or B) blob up the next system over and push the pirate into the blob.
The reasons for this are many, and I'm sure you understand many of them without my help. Primarily though, most "pirates" aren't. Not by your standards anyway.
But understand that from my perspective, Snig is just as annoying and pointless as Burn eden. The only differance being that Snig doesn't log when we come to fight. They simply run. What is the differance?
In both cases, you came, ganked someone (or tried to) and then ran away. WCS, Logging or simply warp/jump doesn't change the reality of the situtation.
Understand that I don't see this as a problem specificly, but that you need to understand that a "good pirate" and a "lame ganker" are exactly the same thing to a guy in a mining barge.
All that being said. I have nothing but respect for the members of SNIG that I've dealt with. Even the ones that killed me. While Burn Eden is, in my experiance, a bunch of ganker tards with no honor.
Unfortunately it doesn't matter which of these two groups I run into while mining/ratting. Either one is likely to ruin my day. Or at the very least, interupt it.
___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
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Vincent Gaines
The Praxis Initiative Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.27 23:17:00 -
[76]
Originally by: shadyfox99 First, I love how the people who make 100 man blobs call the people who engage against the odds the cowards. (I am speaking from only my personal expereince, with my corp. Again i'm not saying no one in snigg flys vagas, but we hardly, form my knowledge, come, gank, and log). I understand your frustration with someone who comes, kills, then logs, thats different and like it was said before that is not piracy.
I've never flown a vaga, and i've never pvp'ed with stabs, so when I can go somewhere, kill and 'try' to loot the cargo, and get out, how is that unfair? Its not my fault that an entire alliance can't stop me. Putting up sentries, wherever it is, is only going to make me go towards using really fast, stabbed up ships, so i can get through the sentries.
I think it would make sense to be able to put sentries around an outpost (even though they are invulnerable anyway) but putting sentries on gates is nerfing piracy too much. Alliances SHOULD be vulnerable to small gangs or even single pilots.
outside of doril I've never had dealt with snig, so I don't know how you operate. If you don't run stabbabonds or log at the first sign of trouble, that's great.
I'm not going to point out who does the 'log and run' or whatever.
and as to someone who said that it's soo easy to defend against a couple gankers in a system with 3-4 gates, try it syourself sometime. it's not as easy as you think.
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Crucifier
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2006.09.27 23:29:00 -
[77]
What i find really sad in here, is the ******* hypocrit ****s here.. ISS and ASCN, you are more stab*****s than burn eden, hell im a more stab***** than burn eden, since burn eden barely use stabs. But you guys, every ship, each and every1 one, has a stab. SO SHUT THE **** UP ABOUT "BUHU THEY'RE BETTER THAN US, MUST BE BECAUSE THEY USE STABS BUHUHU" Im so sick and tired of hearing you nubs whine about it when you use it way more than any1 else. ******* hypocrits
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shadyfox99
Caldari Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2006.09.27 23:33:00 -
[78]
@ Locke- I haven't fought against IRON in a long time, but most alliances idea of "coming out to fight" is 3 to 1 odds. (which against some alliances we still engage in) but i guarantee, that if any "pirate" group brought 3v1 odds, those alliances would also run away. (most people in eve run at 3v1 odds, which is understadable) I'm not saying you shouldn't defend your space, but don't complain when you don't get a fight 3v1.
When it comes to PVP though, me against a barge IS a gank. I understand that. Sometimes we are looking for ganks.(chance to make isk) and other times we are looking for a fight. Which we *usually* have to engage really outnumbered. Which is fine.
@ Vincent- the introduction of interdictors makes catching ANYONE easier.
My problem is, empire is there for a reason, if sentries are introduced to 0.0, eventually, MOST of 0.0 will have them. If you want to be safe, go to empire.
The other thing that I am seeing is people first complain about pirates in low sec, we gank, we gate camp, etc. Now that we have moved to 0.0, the complaning continues.
Originally by: HostageTaker
Use your brain and use your main! OMFG I just rhymed!
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Tibullus
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Posted - 2006.09.27 23:38:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
But understand that from my perspective, Snig is just as annoying and pointless as Burn eden. The only differance being that Snig doesn't log when we come to fight. They simply run. What is the differance?
There is a difference in principle between logging and running. Running away is using in-game means of escaping as opposed to out-of-game means, and is therefore legitimate and acceptable.
If you want to kill pirates use ingenuity. For god's sake don't blob a pirate. What do you think will happen? He'll stand up to a battleship gang?
The key to successfully engaging and overcoming pirates is to convince them that they can win. How you do this is up to you. Use cloaked battleships, e-war fitted badger mark IIs, force them through camped gates, EVE was made for this stuff.
But I take on board your point about logging. Not a lot you can do about that. But at least if they need to rely on logging they aren't a very competent player and therefore you shouldn't worry about that. Like you said the loggers would be more of an 'interruption'.
In terms of thread direction I would like to hear people's opinions about potential effects the sentry guns have about smaller ships. That's a major issue for me.
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Lazy8s
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Posted - 2006.09.27 23:38:00 -
[80]
Wow, 3 pages and we don't even know what the defences are going to be yet! Everyone is jumping to so many conclusions. "The pirates won't be able to come in and kill anyone without 30 or more people!!" Really? Where did you read that? All I read was in extreme circumstances some defences can be setup. Did they say that any 0.0 space with 3 or more people will be able to get up 15 concord guns at every gate for free? NO! For all you know they will take T2 ammo only and 5mil a day in fuel, you'll be able to have 1 that cost 100mil at only 1 gate and it will have 1200HP between armor hull and shield.
IF any system could set these up and IF they were as powerful as oncord and IF they were KOS then yeah it would screw pilots. For all you guys know they won't KOS, perhaps they will take a person or something to tell them to attack. Who knows?
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Zae'dra Xanthe
Fist of the Goat
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Posted - 2006.09.28 00:01:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Zae''dra Xanthe on 28/09/2006 00:02:02 Edited by: Zae''dra Xanthe on 28/09/2006 00:01:09
Originally by: Vincent Gaines
Originally by: Izo Azlion
Originally by: Marcus Druallis
Originally by: Tate Iceni
I assume that CCP will put some sort of controls in order to prevent alliances from closing off huge tracts of space to everyone else; but some clarification over the requirments and limitations of gate controls and sentries would be welcome if only to put our minds at rest!
It's called other players fighting back in my opinion... If you dont want allow Alliance to take space, claim it yourself.
I dont want to claim it. I dont want the logistics nightmares that have to be organised, its already bad enough having to haul ships into Low sec. I want to raid it, run in, get what profit I can, and get out preferably without losing my ship and pod. I expect player resistance. I expect them to shoot at me and try and scan me out. I dont expect to be erased by some Sentry gun.
Nor does a Alliance members alt, perhaps set to Neutral hauling stuff down.
Also, this could cut off alliances that are not next to Empire... interesting thought.
no, here's what happens.
defending alliance is in the system, ratting, mining, whatever.
'pirate' in stabbed ship comes in, flys out and nails a ratting raven. then the 'pirate' safespots.
if you lock the system down with bubbles, the 'pirate' logs off, or jumps safespot to safespot for aggro to go and then logs. with WCS fitted and jumping around SS's scanning out does nothing, especially when they log.
or, they just insta out and leave, leading to a 10 jump chase which is boring as hell.
90% of 'pirate' incursions they don't get anything but a killmail. it's sad, actually.
This is the worst thing I've ever seen. You obviously only have ONE point of view. LEt me change your comment slightly to show you another point of view....
A gank squad jumps into a system hunting for someone, ratting, mining, whatever.
'miner' in stabbed ship gets targetted, flys out, then the 'miner' safespots.
if you lock the system down with bubbles, the 'miner' logs off, or jumps safespot to safespot and then logs. with WCS fitted and jumping around SS's scanning out does nothing, especially when they log.
or, they just insta out and leave, leading to a 10 jump chase which is boring as hell.
Could you be more one sided on this?
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Onin Ra
Privateers
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Posted - 2006.09.28 00:11:00 -
[82]
am i the only one finding it ironic that certain carebear alliances syaing "cowardly pirates" ? I mean have you ever seen an alliance that brings equal force to deal with intruders instead of just Blobing them into Logging Off? xD --- First pvp expirience in eve is alot like having first sex, you have absolutely no idea what you are doing, but it is exciting and one way or another its over way too fast.
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shinmai
Minmatar Minmatar Dope Heads
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Posted - 2006.09.28 00:15:00 -
[83]
So here's a thought. How about expanding the electronic hacking skills to include the ability to hack into an unmanned defense system and shut it down - essentially neutralizing it until the owner can physically show up and reset it? If an alliance leaves an area totally unmanned, then there should be an opportunity for attackers to eventually breakdown the defenses. It's a branch of information warfare in RL, and could be an interesting part of EVE. This could even apply to Empire space where there are local defenses at gates with no Concord or Faction ships. For example, unassuming pirate covops jumps in and hacks a defense system that then allows all his buddies to jump in without getting shot at by the unmanned system defenses. Wouldn't that change the tactics of some pilots!
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Gift
Amarr Loot
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Posted - 2006.09.28 00:25:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Crucifier What i find really sad in here, is the ******* hypocrit ****s here.. ISS and ASCN, you are more stab*****s than burn eden, hell im a more stab***** than burn eden, since burn eden barely use stabs. But you guys, every ship, each and every1 one, has a stab. SO SHUT THE **** UP ABOUT "BUHU THEY'RE BETTER THAN US, MUST BE BECAUSE THEY USE STABS BUHUHU" Im so sick and tired of hearing you nubs whine about it when you use it way more than any1 else. ******* hypocrits
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Pirates of Eve, Join channel "Pirate" Today!
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Gonada
Gallente Cross Roads
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Posted - 2006.09.28 00:38:00 -
[85]
even though I regularly read about " pirates" and thier adventures, the reality is they prey on the weak and the vulnerable.
show any sign of a backbone and they run , stabbed to the max, the craptalk you how uber they are.
glad to see some controls in place regarding them coming, specially in a system you have control over.
-I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.-
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Jennas Konma
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Posted - 2006.09.28 00:40:00 -
[86]
I'd have to agree with the idea of outpost systems only, or 0.0's that have controlling alliances.
Sentries in those systems would make sense, and would be most fair. Other than that, meh, but I dont know all that much about 0.0.
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Vincent Gaines
The Praxis Initiative Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.28 01:06:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Vincent Gaines on 28/09/2006 01:08:41
Originally by: Crucifier What i find really sad in here, is the ******* hypocrit ****s here.. ISS and ASCN, you are more stab*****s than burn eden, hell im a more stab***** than burn eden, since burn eden barely use stabs. But you guys, every ship, each and every1 one, has a stab. SO SHUT THE **** UP ABOUT "BUHU THEY'RE BETTER THAN US, MUST BE BECAUSE THEY USE STABS BUHUHU" Im so sick and tired of hearing you nubs whine about it when you use it way more than any1 else. ******* hypocrits
lol, just lol.
I must have hit a nerve.
I have never used stabs on a combat ship, it's a waste of a low slot.
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.09.28 01:08:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Onin Ra am i the only one finding it ironic that certain carebear alliances syaing "cowardly pirates" ? I mean have you ever seen an alliance that brings equal force to deal with intruders instead of just Blobing them into Logging Off? xD
Considering how many of YOUR corp have been killed 1 on 1 by ISS, I'd have to say...
Yes.
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xeom
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.09.28 01:11:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Gonada
even though I regularly read about " pirates" and thier adventures, the reality is they prey on the weak and the vulnerable.
show any sign of a backbone and they run , stabbed to the max, the craptalk you how uber they are.
glad to see some controls in place regarding them coming, specially in a system you have control over.
Clearly we should run up to a 100 man blob! BECUASE THATS FUN KIDS!
Besides smack talking do you much of anything else?
I never use stabs,im ussualy out numbered and never smack talk.
Tell me what do you do? ---
CCP how about the pith X & A mods? "Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
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Vincent Gaines
The Praxis Initiative Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.28 01:24:00 -
[90]
Originally by: xeom
Clearly we should run up to a 100 man blob! BECUASE THATS FUN KIDS!
Besides smack talking do you much of anything else?
I never use stabs,im ussualy out numbered and never smack talk.
Tell me what do you do?
I never smack talk, and never will- it's childish.. and nothing I've said here is smacktalking. I never accused you of using stabs, nor did I even accuse crucifier-however he seemed to get really upset..heh. In fact, have I mentioned anyone's name or corp here?
I don't use stabs on any combat ship. I've been caught plenty of times and lost a ship because of it.
What do I do? I play Eve.
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