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Cailais Amarr THE SEFRIM INSTITUTE	Posted - 2006.09.20 17:19:00 - [1] Eve has often been described as a 'sandbox' but when you look at it carefully it is in reality 3 "sandboxes" linked together. These 'sandboxes' are Empire (1.0 - 0.5), Low Sec (0.4 - 0.1) and 0.0 proper. Different play styles suit different players, depending upon their inclination towards pvp, time online, their personal goals in game and so forth. Now I have seen conflicting posts on the forums regarding these 'sec' status systems. Some have stated that there is too much or too little reward vs risk in these respective zones and a common complaint from the 'casual' player or empire dweller is that entering 0.0 simply is not worth it. Which made me think that the 'gate camps' are really rather like 'filters' - those with the desire to enter 0.0 do so becuase they percieve the reward is worth the effort. But a quick check of the map demonstrates that many do not think the risk is worth the financial reward. Now some solutions to this are alternately to make the risk less in 0.0, the rewards more, or make the rewards less in low sec and Empire. But actually very few have considered that the non 0.0 dweller is a player type who is not motivated purely by financial gain. A recent questionaire on the general forum seems to bear this out. Several comments (and I appreciate this is not indicative of the whole player base) are of the nature of 'my corps and friends are based here in Empire', or 'Im not a hard core player - I dont have the time to devote to a 0.0 alliance'. Which got me thinking - perhaps we need a new 'sandbox', one that appeals to the Empire and low sec dweller, that might encourage some (perhaps not all) to venture out into 'deep space'. Clearly such a 'sandbox' shouldn't resmemble or replicate 0.0 - after all we have that already and it seems to serve the 'alliance builder', replete with player owned stations and good rewards well. So, if its not financial reward that would motivate the player base to 'spread out a bit', or the chance for unlimited pvp what would? I recently read an interesting article in PC GAMER (UK) commenting upon some ideas of Prof Richard Bartle Essex University where he describes player types as broadly falling into the following groups 'achivers', 'killers', and 'socialisers'. Now I think EVE caters for these quite well (Alliance builders, Pirates, RPers etc) and recoginises that we all flit from time to time from each 'group' to another as the mood takes us. But it was the last group that really intrigued me - 'explorers'. Now before you start yes I know "exploration" is going to be a facet of Kali, and Im all for that, however my point is here any such explorer will be exploring 'known space'. With a quick map check I can tell who controls a system, what agents, stations, plannets and moons etc are there. So genuine 'exploration' is a bit limited beyond "finding things" within these systems. To me that's less exploration and more investigation. So back to the sand boxes. What if there was a forth 'sand box', beyond 0.0, a place of exploration? In the following post I will try and provide some detail on what that are would be like, and how it might serve the function of enticing players out and into truly exploring both the known, and the 'Unknown'.... www.sefrim.com
codepic Mithril Inc Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.20 17:28:00 - [2] Not trying to put down this idea. I like it. More like giving more info about the eve universe. The eve universe in fact is one galaxy. 0.0 being the edge of it. So in fact if you'd explore what is beyond, there'd be just empty space for eons to travel. Free Eve Wallpaper \| Corporate Bookmarks
SGT chedder	Posted - 2006.09.20 17:31:00 - [3] I tend to agree with you. As I am one of these player who would love to spend more time on eve. The Forth sandbox would be good. Now I know one look on the map and you can see a new area, but if I understand you correctly what you would like is an area hidden on the map and only known by those who explore it? This would make exploration far mmore what I would expect it to be. This would also open up eve even more to a 'player driven' game, which I believe is what CCP would like.
Cailais Amarr THE SEFRIM INSTITUTE	Posted - 2006.09.20 17:43:00 - [4] Unknown Space...how would it work? Well these are a few of my ideas, and theyre predicated upon my earlier post. Im not suggesting for a minute that this is 'exactly' how it would be, and if you like the idea in general please post some of your thoughts. 'Unknown' space would exist as a further belt of systems beyond 0.0 (probably to a "depth" of about 20 - 30 systems). It would not appear on the galaxy map - there would be no information on any of the systems, no indication of how to get from one to another without physicaly going there. The individual systems would be unnamed, not even the 0.0 nomenclature of PX-TY7 etc. Individual systems would be very different. Some with asteroid belts, others without, some with 'gas clouds', npc stations (with agents)- a whole variety of common 'objects' we are used to finding now. Other sytems would be rather different - even 'alien'. Aliens!? No - alien, containing for example the desolate ruined stations of a now long lost race. 'Alien' artefacts might be found, some useful, others useless (other than for collecting purposes. Some systems containing little more than dangerous dust clouds that damage you ship and small rogue drones. Perhaps new 'technology' can be found here? Now of course such a 'Unknown' would need to be dynamic - otherwise it would quickly be explored and become 'known space' detailed on countless out of game blogs and websites. By dynamic I don't mean entirely random thruoghout - though some gates might be random, some systems might contain belts of incredible wealth but with respawn times lasting weeks or even months. New 'tech' would probably be 'one offs' maybe a single shot BPC for a 'alien cap recharger'. Finally the rewards here in Unknown are not necesarrily worth huge amounts - that alien cap recharger could be worse stats wise than say a conventional item. That belt might be a belt of common veldspar. Some systems might even have a 'concord' type of presence'. i dont think any (though there might be a few) that could be claimed as soverigntey. Unknown space, beyond 0.0, a shifting domain where tellign your buddy to "fly two systems N of PXC-12X then W two systems" might not always work. Commonents or suggestions most welcome. C. www.sefrim.com
Toriatrix The Blackwater Brigade	Posted - 2006.09.20 17:59:00 - [5] The current map "should" only contain know systems that have been explored. In theory there could still be systems that are not explored, and we have not built any jump gates to. A new proffesion and tools to explore new systems would be nice. I'm not sure what Kali have in store for the exploration bit, but i'm looking forward to learing more about it. And i'm sure it does'nt hurt to give CCP more ideas to play with. -Toriatrix The Blackwater Brigade. Support POS Overhaul - Read it NOW!
Cailais Amarr THE SEFRIM INSTITUTE	Posted - 2006.09.20 18:08:00 - [6] Quote: I understand you correctly what you would like is an area hidden on the map and only known by those who explore it? Exactly that. Now the new system you have found still won't appear on your map. Now you might Bm it - but some systems would be slightly random, perhaps in their content, perhaps when their access gate works, or perhaps the gate itself sends you to a 'random' system altogether. How random is random? Not very, the examples I've given above might not 'fire' for hours, days or even weeks. Lets say you warp from 0.0 system XX-123. Youve done this trip countless times and you've always ended up in a system thats called 'Reykest'. Reykest has 2 moons, a npc station and a belt of veldspar. Its not that exciting but you found a unusual mining laser there once on an old wreck, so its not a complete loss. But on this occasion you don't jump to 'Reykest', but an unnamed system (there would be countless numbers of these). Getting lost is a possibility with this concept but I would expect that on setting your AP to XX-123 a route is given to you (the correct gate is highlighted) - sure it might be a few jumps out - but doable. I think it would be fascinating to see how such a 'sand box' would effect say pvp- "right uber fleet blob we're camping the gate of er....urm...well its 4 jumps north, 3 east..er...everyone got that? Now NO one is getting into system erm...er..." www.sefrim.com
Toriatrix The Blackwater Brigade	Posted - 2006.09.20 18:13:00 - [7] Well.. the way i see exploring would work is to have systems without jumpgates. Un-explored systems. And you as an explorer would have to get skills to fly your brand new explorer ship with a computer to calculate remote warp to cordinates, with a risk of failure depending on skills and diffrent fallouts like ending up dead in a sun or in the middle of nowhere.. or maybe close to a system that you can explore and have all kinds of fun in. Maybe you can even build a jump gate here eventually setting up a Cyno field ect. Building, exploring and changing an unknown world is what i want to see. -Toriatrix The Blackwater Brigade. Support POS Overhaul - Read it NOW!
Cailais Amarr THE SEFRIM INSTITUTE	Posted - 2006.09.20 18:14:00 - [8] Quote: A new proffesion and tools to explore new systems would be nice. Even (dare I say it) new ships? Maybe a system scanner that records a systems make up. Its an unnamed system so you decide to call it 'Rogel'. Your system scanner creats a "BM" to Rogel that contains a pile of usefull info - Its a one off (you can't really make another) and uncopyable, but you can sell it on to another prospective explorer. C. www.sefrim.com
Cailais Amarr THE SEFRIM INSTITUTE	Posted - 2006.09.20 18:16:00 - [9] Quote: Well.. the way i see exploring would work is to have systems without jumpgates. Un-explored systems. And you as an explorer would have to get skills to fly your brand new explorer ship with a computer to calculate remote warp to cordinates, with a risk of failure depending on skills and diffrent fallouts like ending up dead in a sun or in the middle of nowhere.. or maybe close to a system that you can explore and have all kinds of fun in. I think jump gates would still work (most people are familiar with these after all) but no reason why a semi permanent cyno field doesnt exist in one. www.sefrim.com
Toriatrix The Blackwater Brigade	Posted - 2006.09.20 18:19:00 - [10] Why should we have jump gates.. that means someone have been here.. I'm all for making these systems "new" un-developed virgin systems. So that players might do it all from scratch. Even making your own record in your own starmap. -Toriatrix The Blackwater Brigade. Support POS Overhaul - Read it NOW!

Cailais Amarr THE SEFRIM INSTITUTE	Posted - 2006.09.20 18:29:00 - [11] Potentialy that could work sure. The idea behind having these systems slightly unmappable (or at least rather vague / unreliable maps) is that you can keep on exploring - this space would really never become wholly known (hence the name). I think 0.0 caters for the 'builder' who want to establish there own part of space. Unknown is really for the explorer, who wants to be suprised by each system he visits. I like the idea of a tool to create your own 'star map' of unkown. It might not be terribly relaibel and rather unique to yourself. Remember there are thousands of talented players out there and eventually a static 'map' will be recorded in detail and put up on the web. Hence why such a tool set might be a limited to an extent and the 'mutablility' or each systems / region meaning such a player map would swiftly be out of date and innaccurate (better get out there and re-explore it then) www.sefrim.com
Toriatrix The Blackwater Brigade	Posted - 2006.09.20 18:41:00 - [12] Know what you mean, but there are diffrent ideas and they might not be able to work together in the same place. But atleast they are voiced here now. CCP will know what to do eventually.. (i hope).. -Toriatrix The Blackwater Brigade. Support POS Overhaul - Read it NOW!
Ruze The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.09.20 18:46:00 - [13] I'm a huge supporter of unclaimed, unmarked, and unrecorded. These systems should be ANYWHERE, and you should only be accessable by chance or direct knowledge. This area would be the ultimate of player domains. Systems without gates, without straight and direct paths to them. Locations that can only be reached by ingenuity. And they don't have to be 'outside' Empire space. Heck, they could be found only lightyears from Jita, for all we know. Just an overlay of the unexplored, both in 0.0 and Empire. Most importantly is the civilization of these regions. Allow players to build enormous POS's, an idea I saw in another post. Allow them to personalize. Make systems that are under complete control of rogue drones, or other pirates. Systems with forgotten gates located in complexes and on the dark side of some moons. Allow players to construct their own gates and dynamic paths to these systems. Allow the player to explore, find, map, travel, control, build, live in ... everything. I though 0.0 would be like this, really. But 0.0 has turned into a sort of 'uber player' zone that is just like Empire space, only further between NPC stations. Good idea. -->Proud Member of The Shadow Ascension<-- Visit the channel 'TSA' to contact a recruiter.
Dutarro Kydance Radiant Industries Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.20 18:55:00 - [14] EVE has never catered to the 'explorer' player type (using Bartle's categorization). It is mainly geared toward the 'killer' type, with just enough content to keep 'builder' and 'socializer' types in the game, so that killers have someone to kill. Exploration-oriented play does not fit into this model, because explorers are likely to be far away from other players most of the time, providing little entertainment value to the killers. Your idea is great, but don't expect much from CCP in this vein. The way to make EVE the game we want it to be is through our actions in-game. Updates from the devs will only tend to move EVE toward their vision, not ours.
Cailais Amarr THE SEFRIM INSTITUTE	Posted - 2006.09.20 20:03:00 - [15] Edited by: Cailais on 20/09/2006 20:04:18 Edited by: Cailais on 20/09/2006 20:03:55 I agree that this EVE is predominantly geared towards the 'builder' and 'killer'. My suggestions here really do need to refrain from a concept of 'developable space'. Why? Well mainly because it already exists in 0.0. Empire space is already claimed and civilised. 0.0 is in the process of being claimed and civilised (though it need not reach completion)- my suggestion is for a 'deep space', unclaimable, and uncivilized. I think the explorer has a lot to offer the wider community, because explorers by their very nature come back. Perhaps bringing new technologies, or even just new tales. Several posts recently have said that EVE is 'stagnating': now Im not a judge of that but if that is the case then 'exploration' is one sure fire way of 'unstagnating' it. I delibrately placed my concept of 'unknown space' beyond 0.0 because it is part of that 'transition' through the 'sand boxes' of EVE that makes this game unique. C. www.sefrim.com
MaKaVeLi DaDoN Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.21 06:37:00 - [16] the new systems should not have gates. instead a random wormholes should appear in random known or unknow systems. Once there, a player can drop a beacon or something, so he can visit this system Then player can give/sell the BM to this beacon other people. A way of constructing stargates should be implemented. The stargates should only be pointed to the closest 0.0 system or closest known to player "unknown" system. Once a system has been discovered by someone, thit does not mean that a random wormholes will not be created again for this system. This would prevent "This is only for me/us" behaviuor.
Cailais Amarr THE SEFRIM INSTITUTE	Posted - 2006.09.21 10:10:00 - [17] I think any concept of 'no gate travel' is an exciting and interesting one - though I must admit I am not sure if it is easily implemented. I agree that any new 'uknowkn' space shouldn't become exploitable as a 'them and us' area. I think that by having these systems (and for simplicity lets say they resemble normal systems for now) not on the map, or named would make the process of 'holding' such systems or blocking access really very diffficult to achieve in practice. Without names or a map reference even describing to another player where you intened to travel would be a slow process - now imagine trying to do that in terms of say establishing soveriegnty, or forming a gate camp - not impossible but very difficult. In this way such "unknown" systems would be easily accesible - which is a key concept when encouraging people to visit them. C. www.sefrim.com
MaKaVeLi DaDoN Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.21 13:39:00 - [18] Originally by: Cailais Without names or a map reference even describing to another player where you intened to travel would be a slow process - now imagine trying to do that in terms of say establishing soveriegnty, or forming a gate camp - not impossible but very difficult. vs Originally by: Cailais In this way such "unknown" systems would be easily accesible - which is a key concept when encouraging people to visit them. So how exactly "easy accessible" is it, if you even have hard time to explain where it is. These onknow systems should be easy to find (actulay not so easy, like I suggested by a random event or other way), but the have to be hard to control. If not, they will became as extension to 0.0, when big alliances take foot there.
MaKaVeLi DaDoN Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.21 13:42:00 - [19] I can even suggest that their coordiantes to be geven as reward from agents or part of the mission. But make this available even ot lvl1 agents. So everyone in EVE have the equal chance to find its exploration paradise.
Ellaine TashMurkon MetaForge Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.09.21 14:00:00 - [20] A really nice addition to exploration wuld be BMs visible and filtrable on overview and on map. This way, explorer culd fly around and mark moon by moon and belt by belt. People with BM sets from this explorer, wuld live in explored system like in known space, they wuld also be able to see it on map etc. Centralised BM repositories or BM storage items (all found in the myriads of insta solutions) wuld be quite usefull to make that information sharing fun rather then torture.

Cailais Amarr THE SEFRIM INSTITUTE	Posted - 2006.09.21 15:27:00 - [21] Accessibility vs mapping. Perhaps a bit more explanation required here of what my origional vision was - (not knocking your good suggestions here). Looking at the universe map 0.0 surrounds empire and low sec like a 'donut' - eventually you reach the peripheral 0.0 systems and can go no further, now what if in those systems there were further gates to unmapped systems? They would be accesible (I travel from known to unknown space) but not easily described. I envisioned this space as being rather like an addtional 'donut' around 0.0. Accessing 'unknown' could b e achieved by a number of ways from 'findable BMs' that lead from Empire direct to 'unknown', or accessed from peripheral 0.0 systems. Won't alliances just dominate these new systems? Well they might enter this space but crucialy I dont see this 'unknow' space as being as profitable as 0.0. In 0.0 (or anywhere else for that matter) you 'know' that belt 'A' in system 'B' will ALWAYS provide you with a certain reward. Unknown space won't have that guaruntee. Many (the majority) of 'unknown' systems could not be occupied with POS's like 0.0 - they exist for exploration - not empire building. What I would hope Unknown 'might' help to enable is trade of 'exotic' goods from 'unknown' through 0.0 and into Empire. Anyway as I said these are just some outline ideas, but Im encouraged that the general concept of 'unmapped explorable space' seems well recieved. C. www.sefrim.com


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