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Captain Alioth
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Posted - 2006.08.28 01:14:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Captain Alioth on 28/08/2006 01:15:36 So after looking around at cruisers for a while, I've noticed something a little odd.
All four races have two tier 2 cruisers: one EW ship and one other. For three of the four races, the 'other' tier 2 cruiser has some sort of ability which the tier 3 cruiser lacks (Vexor has drones, Stabber has speed, Caracal has missiles), but the Omen really doesn't really have anything (other than super-sexy looks) going for it.
Take a look at some stats:
Omen Hi: 5 Med: 3 Lo: 5 Bonus: -10% med energy turret cap use +5% med energy turret RoF
Maller Hi: 6 Med: 3 Lo: 6 Bonus: -10% med energy turret cap use +5% armor resistances
So judging by the bonuses, it looks like the Omen should be more of an offensive ship than the Maller. But the extra powergrid, cap, and turret hardpoints on the Maller should more than make up for the RoF difference, making the Maller a better ship for both offence and defence.
So why does anybody use the Omen instead of the Maller? As far as I can tell there are three possibilities:
1. It's somewhat cheaper 2. It looks so much better 3. There's something that I've missed
So let's hear your thoughts on the Omen.
EDIT: Just to clarify: this isn't a whine thread; I'm really hoping there's something the Omen has going for it that I just overlooked.
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inSpirAcy
Caldari The Solopwnmobiles
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Posted - 2006.08.28 01:23:00 -
[2]
The problem with the Omen is that it can't fit top tier medium lasers (Heavy Pulse II) with anything resembling a tank, so it can't really do its job unless it doesn't get targeted.
The Maller does almost everything the Omen can do, except field drones, better. The extra turret point almost negates the Omen's RoF bonus (5.0 turrets versus 5.3), while the extra lows and CPU/grid allow for more heat sinks and/or higher tier guns. And it gets a sexy resist bonus for free.
Even the Maller is a tight fit. I find myself flying the Prophecy almost exclusively recently, just because it's so much easier to get everything to fit.
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Captain Alioth
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Posted - 2006.08.28 01:27:00 -
[3]
Originally by: inSpirAcy The extra turret point almost negates the Omen's RoF bonus (5.0 turrets versus 5.3)
5.0 vs. 5.3? I don't get it.
The Omen has 4 turret hardpoints, which will do 25% more damage due to RoF at lvl5, so in terms of DPS wouldn't it be 5.0 vs. 5.0?
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inSpirAcy
Caldari The Solopwnmobiles
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Posted - 2006.08.28 01:28:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Captain Alioth 5.0 vs. 5.3? I don't get it.
The Omen has 4 turret hardpoints, which will do 25% more damage due to RoF at lvl5, so in terms of DPS wouldn't it be 5.0 vs. 5.0?
Crazy EVE math.
A 25% RoF increase is equivalent to a 33% damage increase.
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Captain Alioth
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Posted - 2006.08.28 01:32:00 -
[5]
Originally by: inSpirAcy Crazy EVE math.
A 25% RoF increase is equivalent to a 33% damage increase.
Really? And here I thought I had a pretty good handle on EVE math...
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Frools
No Quarter. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.08.28 01:40:00 -
[6]
rof bonuses work differently 4 / 0.75 = 5.3333
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Captain Alioth
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Posted - 2006.08.28 01:57:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Frools rof bonuses work differently 4 / 0.75 = 5.3333
Ah, so it's not 25% more shots per minute, it's 25% fewer seconds per shot. I get it. Plus, the Omen gets a launcher slot as well, so I guess that would add some DPS if it would fit. Not to mention a couple drones.
The Omen isn't quite as mediocre as I thought...I guess that's good news. But still, does anybody actually use it? I've heard of a few people who had one once upon a time, but are there any hardcore Omen pilots out there?
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Nikolai Nuvolari
Caldari Gilead's Bullet Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.08.28 02:03:00 -
[8]
TomB made a mistake, when he was fixing the Omen by adding its fifth turret slot, he accidentally clicked "launcher" instead of "turret" and it hasn't been fixed yet. --------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans Nik = win. Period.
Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
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Frools
No Quarter. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.08.28 02:08:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Frools on 28/08/2006 02:09:52
Originally by: Captain Alioth
The Omen isn't quite as mediocre as I thought...I guess that's good news. But still, does anybody actually use it? I've heard of a few people who had one once upon a time, but are there any hardcore Omen pilots out there?
tbh the omen is only any good for adding dps to a gang its nigh-on useless for solo
its main problem is it lacks grid you need an rcu to get anything else on along with 4 heavy pulse II i usually fit it thus: 4x heavy pulse II 1x rocket launcher (no cpu left)
AB/web/scram
3x heat sink II's rcu small rep/400mm plate/eanm/whatever
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Harry Voyager
Obscurity LLC
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Posted - 2006.08.28 02:34:00 -
[10]
The thing about the Omen is its the only entry level cruiser that lets you do a little bit of everything. It's got a large cargo hold for a light cruiser, a decent drone bay, decent dps, decent tank, decent speed, and all around decent everything. It is the perfect ship for dabbling in different roles, even though it doesn't excell at any of them.
Basically, its the cruiser for figuring out what you really want to do with yourself.
Harry Voyager
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Siakel
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Posted - 2006.08.28 05:28:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Harry Voyager The thing about the Omen is its the only entry level cruiser that lets you do a little bit of everything. It's got a large cargo hold for a light cruiser, a decent drone bay, decent dps, decent tank, decent speed, and all around decent everything. It is the perfect ship for dabbling in different roles, even though it doesn't excell at any of them.
Basically, its the cruiser for figuring out what you really want to do with yourself.
Harry Voyager
Err... Vexor?
Another Tier2 Cruiser, but it has a bigger cargo bay than the Omen, a better Drone bay, 4 turret slots with a damage bonus, and can fit a tank as good or better than the Omen's.
So the Omen gets 20 m/s more base speed and a launcher slot, less DPS, less tank, less cargo bay, less drone bay... Looks to me like the Vexor is the Cruiser for figuring out what you really want to do with yourself.
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Samirol
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2006.08.28 05:47:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Siakel
Originally by: Harry Voyager The thing about the Omen is its the only entry level cruiser that lets you do a little bit of everything. It's got a large cargo hold for a light cruiser, a decent drone bay, decent dps, decent tank, decent speed, and all around decent everything. It is the perfect ship for dabbling in different roles, even though it doesn't excell at any of them.
Basically, its the cruiser for figuring out what you really want to do with yourself.
Harry Voyager
Err... Vexor?
Another Tier2 Cruiser, but it has a bigger cargo bay than the Omen, a better Drone bay, 4 turret slots with a damage bonus, and can fit a tank as good or better than the Omen's.
So the Omen gets 20 m/s more base speed and a launcher slot, less DPS, less tank, less cargo bay, less drone bay... Looks to me like the Vexor is the Cruiser for figuring out what you really want to do with yourself.
and if you CAN'T fly a vexor yet, and only have amarr skills....
Ore Mongers is recruiting |
Harry Voyager
Obscurity LLC
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Posted - 2006.08.28 05:55:00 -
[13]
The Vexor's also got less grid and fewer slots, and it doesn't have any better energy than the Omen.
The Omen also handles weapon types other than its bonused set better than the Vexor does, party because of its higher grid and larger slot load.
That, and starting with a Vexor is sort of like starting with the P-38L was in Warbirds; it's so blasted good with drones that you just aren't going to ever use anything else.
Harry Voyager
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Siakel
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Posted - 2006.08.28 05:58:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Samirol and if you CAN'T fly a vexor yet, and only have amarr skills....
Yes, if you can't fly a Vexor and only have Amarr skills, the Omen would work for this. But if you read his post..
Originally by: Harry Voyager The thing about the Omen is its the only entry level cruiser that lets you do a little bit of everything..
So one redeeming thing that the Omen can do, another ship can also do, only better in almost every way. This is what I was pointing out.
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Harry Voyager
Obscurity LLC
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Posted - 2006.08.28 06:06:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Siakel
Originally by: Samirol and if you CAN'T fly a vexor yet, and only have amarr skills....
Yes, if you can't fly a Vexor and only have Amarr skills, the Omen would work for this. But if you read his post..
Originally by: Harry Voyager The thing about the Omen is its the only entry level cruiser that lets you do a little bit of everything..
So one redeeming thing that the Omen can do, another ship can also do, only better in almost every way. This is what I was pointing out.
And I do believe I just pointed out the fact that the Vexor is so overwhelmingly powerful with drones that if you are attempting to get a survey of fields, you get a biased result.
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Siakel
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Posted - 2006.08.28 06:14:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Harry Voyager The Vexor's also got less grid and fewer slots, and it doesn't have any better energy than the Omen.
The Omen also handles weapon types other than its bonused set better than the Vexor does, party because of its higher grid and larger slot load.
That, and starting with a Vexor is sort of like starting with the P-38L was in Warbirds; it's so blasted good with drones that you just aren't going to ever use anything else.
Harry Voyager
Yes, the Omen has slightly higher powergrid. However, the Vexor has slightly higher CPU. Also, Heavy Ion Blaster II takes both less CPU and less powergrid than the Heavy Pulse Laser II. It also has the same cap and recharge, while using weapons that take less cap. The only thing the Omen would handle better than the Vexor weapon-wise would be Lasers, because the Vexor wouldn't have the cap to support them.
Also, stating that the Vexor would never be used for anything but drones because it's so good with them..? What does this have to do with it still managing to outclass the Omen in almost every way?
Hm.. yes, the Omen has one more lowslot. However, the Vexor also has 65 m3 more drone bay, and uses nearly 300 less powergrid for a rack of weapons. After fitting a rack of weapons, (Heavy Ion/Heavy Pulse) the Vexor has 262.31 grid left to fill 8 slots, and the Omen has... 62.42 grid to fill 9 slots. (This is with AWU 4, all other fitting skills maxed.)
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Siakel
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Posted - 2006.08.28 06:17:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Harry Voyager
And I do believe I just pointed out the fact that the Vexor is so overwhelmingly powerful with drones that if you are attempting to get a survey of fields, you get a biased result.
Erm..? If you take away the Vexor's drone bonus and give it a silly bonus like.. +10% maximum warp speed, it still outperforms the Omen in almost every way. More turret damage, equal or better tank, more spare grid, better cargo bay.. slightly less top speed, but slightly more agile, also.
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Cmdr Sy
EUROPEANS
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Posted - 2006.08.28 06:25:00 -
[18]
One of the things you can do with a Maller is 3x medium nos, 3x heavy pulse, plated multispectral tank with HAC resists, and a sensor booster, warp disruptor, web on mids.
An Arbitrator will ensure that an Omen pilot can't hit a barn door from the inside.
I won't list the various other cruisers out there, but suffice it to say, every race has a couple of vastly superior options, for the same price or not much more. There is really no need for anyone to use an Omen. They simply aren't that good. My experience of them in PVP is watching them explode. I have yet to see one actually make a useful contribution to a fight.
And if you have to mine, forget the four turret hardpoints and train for an Osprey.
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Kei Zen
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Posted - 2006.08.28 06:51:00 -
[19]
For a jack-of-all trades role, Omen could use a bit more of everything. Maybe room for 4-5 light drones and an additional missile slot. A touch of cpu and grid but not much. Balancing it with the additional missile slot could prove difficult, though.
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LWMaverick
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Posted - 2006.08.28 07:45:00 -
[20]
The omen just plain, suck.
<3 |
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.28 09:46:00 -
[21]
People think the omen sucks because it can't fit a full rack of heavy pulse IIs and a full tank. Big deal. The ship is a cheap damage dealer that adds 400+ DPS in 3 to 4 different damage types to a gang. If you want a ship that lasts longer go for a maller. If you want a ship that will riddle your opponent with 'pew pew' power then you fly an omen.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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john2
Minmatar Drones of Annihilation
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Posted - 2006.08.28 10:38:00 -
[22]
omen are mini geddon, they work well with the right setup. if you fly one, you can t have tank and dps it does not work very well it good it one or the other to get better results. tank or damage and if you add so webber drone you would hit frigate ect...
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Stephar
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2006.08.28 10:40:00 -
[23]
Omen is garbage. I can't imagine a scenario where I'd rather be in an Omen than a Maller.
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2006.08.28 11:01:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Stephar Omen is garbage. I can't imagine a scenario where I'd rather be in an Omen than a Maller.
You don't have a very good imagination do you?
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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inSpirAcy
Caldari The Solopwnmobiles
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Posted - 2006.08.28 11:22:00 -
[25]
Edited by: inSpirAcy on 28/08/2006 11:23:48
Originally by: Kaylana Syi People think the omen sucks because it can't fit a full rack of heavy pulse IIs and a full tank. Big deal. The ship is a cheap damage dealer that adds 400+ DPS in 3 to 4 different damage types to a gang. If you want a ship that lasts longer go for a maller. If you want a ship that will riddle your opponent with 'pew pew' power then you fly an omen.
But the point is I can get more DPS out of a Maller. The launcher slot adds little because it doesn't have the CPU/grid left over to fit... well, anything in it. Give me an Omen setup and I can give you a Maller setup that'll outdamage it.
Factor in insurance (I think we can agree it's a PvP ship) and you save next to no money flying an Omen.
I've only addressed the issue that the Omen can't max out its fitting to be a gank ship. There's still the rather large issue - even while ignoring the EM damage type - that a gank Thorax will outdamage a 4 HP II / 3 HS II Omen by about 300 DPS...
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Cmdr Sy
EUROPEANS
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Posted - 2006.08.28 19:56:00 -
[26]
Gone are the days when great DPS was enough to make a ship useful.
Four heavy pulse lasers and a RoF bonus don't compensate for the fact that you're going into battle naked.
I don't just look at DPS, I look at survivability and cumulative damage too. The DPS of an Omen means little when it dies in seconds. It's not a game-breaking flaw, it just means it's the weakest of a range of options.
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korrey
Level Five
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Posted - 2006.08.28 20:13:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Captain Alioth
Ah, so it's not 25% more shots per minute, it's 25% fewer seconds per shot. I get it. Plus, the Omen gets a launcher slot as well, so I guess that would add some DPS if it would fit. Not to mention a couple drones.
The Omen isn't quite as mediocre as I thought...I guess that's good news. But still, does anybody actually use it? I've heard of a few people who had one once upon a time, but are there any hardcore Omen pilots out there?
Yeah...me...thats about it. I love to use the Omen for fun and attempt to do it in PvP alone. The best thing ive gotten is a kill against a Demios...granted he was afk at a planet half the fight but thats beside the point.
Seriouslt the Omen looks so good I use it when my gang asks for my Armageddon. I just love it...despite the fact its not a very good fighting ship.
-Level Five
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Clavius XIV
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.28 20:25:00 -
[28]
Originally by: inSpirAcy
Give me an Omen setup and I can give you a Maller setup that'll outdamage it.
To be fair, this is probably only true for "reasonable setups". For pure gank (that will die pretty much as soon as it gets targeted) no maller will beat this dps:
4x Heavy Pulse Laser II Heavy Missile Launcher II
10MN Afterburner II Faint Warp Prohibitor I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Reactor Control Unit II Co-Processor II 3x Heat Sink II
Again it's not a realistic setup unless you are a member of a very large blob. A bit more fitting on the Omen and the Maller would certianly be welcome to make them competitive.
At least the Arbitrator is a decent T1 option for Amarr cruiser pilots.
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inSpirAcy
Caldari The Solopwnmobiles
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Posted - 2006.08.28 20:40:00 -
[29]
Well, I have to admit defeat there.
Though I can get a Maller to 400 DPS (that Omen does 480, I'd forgotten about drones) while maintaining a tank, so it's not too bad.
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Frools
No Quarter. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.08.28 20:46:00 -
[30]
Originally by: inSpirAcy
Edit: Just to clarify, here's a graph of the problem. The Omen has a range advantage so it shouldn't out-damage a Thorax. That said, the 40% damage drop isn't in line with the BS-class equivalent drop of about 10%.
run the graphs again with the rax using null and watch that range advantage melt away
only advantage pulses have are they can switch to scorch for longer range, but blasters with null do more damage at similar range as conflag pulse
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