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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 11 post(s) |
Khan Wrenth
Hedion University Amarr Empire
81
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Posted - 2014.11.18 07:45:33 -
[1771] - Quote
Highsec is already very, very safe. In fact it is probably safer than it ought to be, and it might be arguable that it is safe to an extent that is unhealthy for the game. That the only real problem players have is in certain chokepoint systems, and even then, the problem is small-scale, infers to me that highsec is very safe indeed.
Yes, I know, that is only my opinion and I have nothing substantial or statistical to back it up. It's just what I've observed. (cue the "that's just, like, your opinion man" from Lebowski)
That aside, I think the EHP on the Bowhead could use to be reverted back to the original numbers (~350k if properly fitted, if I recall correctly). I don't think gank profitability is of any relevance in this discussion, as it is a question of motive and not of the mechanics of the act, and right now it's highly questionable if profitability is even a [major] driving factor behind ganking at this time (how many times have I seen a thread titled something along the lines of "Help CCP! Empty freighters being ganked!!!"?). So putting that aside, the original EHP numbers were powerful and perfectly usable*.
*Caveat: like others have mentioned earlier in the thread, having the majority of EHP in shield is a great idea to encourage logi support.
But EHP plus or minus, it most likely won't directly effect me since I am unlikely to be able to partake in taking one down either through gank or through wardec. No, my main beef with this vessel is another point already driven home by other posters and while I know it won't change, I have to say it just the same - having yet another industrial skill that only effects one ship is just bullpocky. I'd rather see the ship rolled in with Capital Industrial Ship (someone said earlier it would have XL rigs, right? Well, isn't that capital? Well then it's an industrial ship that's capital and needs to be a part of that skillbook).
HTFU.-á Adapt or die.-á Beware the falcon punch.
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Masao Kurata
Z List
153
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Posted - 2014.11.18 07:48:01 -
[1772] - Quote
Veers Belvar wrote:I for one will be checking out the killboard for the first few days post-release, and except to see quite a few ganks of this "unkillable" ship.
Oh it's killable, it just relies on the pilot doing something monumentally stupid like not fitting tank, fitting laughably incorrect correct tank, going afk and not turning on his modules (has anyone posted recently about how annoying it is that damage control has no visible effect?), flying it with active kill rights (oh yes I should mention that I expect a few to die this way intentionally since it's fully insurable), flying it in (factional) war, undocking it when already suspect, panic ejecting (I don't understand it but people do this) or self destructing (yes this does generate a killmail provided that there was some player damage to the ship). Or of course the old favourite, flying straight into low or null without a plan or even checking your route. |
Jerome Gouillot
Pangalactic Frontline Supply Agency
22
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Posted - 2014.11.18 09:26:46 -
[1773] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Zappity wrote:Warr Akini wrote:The above being said, it looks as if CCP doesn't actually know what goes through a ganker's mind. If only there was someone who knew the ins and outs of ganking around here... "hurr durr let's gank this empty freighter for ***** and giggles hurr durr." What exactly do you need to understand? It is difficult to defend against irrational behaviour. Yea... that guy runs a for profit organisation, not code.
CODE does as well, not on a per gank level, but on a meta one I am confident the share/donation pool plus loot makes the whole operation profitable. |
Fu Qjoo
Pangalactic Frontline Supply Agency
19
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Posted - 2014.11.18 09:58:36 -
[1774] - Quote
I do not get why this always leads to a massive threadnought.
If you want to move a rigged BS now, you have 2 options:
- destroy the rigs and ship it in a JF/Freighter or have it hauled by a professional trucker
Now you get a third option. Why are you complaining?
In its current state though, it is already on the edge of making option 1 and 2 extremely unattractive, which would cut 2 existing options down to 1. I do not think the game will benefit from taking options away. So I would rather see this ship at 300ish EHP fully tank fitted (well, there is no other option to fit it anyway). That forces you to chose time vs. money vs. risk.
Which is good in my opinion.
And for Null, it might add content as interfering with enemy logistic lines based on those ships will be a strategic option. We might see large battles around 25 escorted bowheads.
Which would be good as well. |
Fu Qjoo
Pangalactic Frontline Supply Agency
19
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Posted - 2014.11.18 10:08:18 -
[1775] - Quote
This is a bumping Mach or a pilot with a ship/cargo scanner fetish. |
Barton Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
95
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Posted - 2014.11.18 10:49:32 -
[1776] - Quote
Fu Qjoo wrote:I do not get why this always leads to a massive threadnought. If you want to move a rigged BS now, you have 2 options:
- destroy the rigs and ship it in a JF/Freighter or have it hauled by a professional trucker
Now you get a third option. Why are you complaining? In its current state though, it is already on the edge of making option 1 and 2 extremely unattractive, which would cut 2 existing options down to 1. I do not think the game will benefit from taking options away. So I would rather see this ship at 300ish EHP fully tank fitted (well, there is no other option to fit it anyway). That forces you to chose time vs. money vs. risk. Which is good in my opinion. And for Null, it might add content as interfering with enemy logistic lines based on those ships will be a strategic option. We might see large battles around 25 escorted bowheads. Which would be good as well.
Maybe you should explain how using 300k ehp and ~30s align time makes mwd cloak 100k ehp with 4 stabs unattractive.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13940
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Posted - 2014.11.18 10:57:28 -
[1777] - Quote
Barton Breau wrote:
Maybe you should explain how using 300k ehp and ~30s align time makes mwd cloak 100k ehp with 4 stabs unattractive.
Same reason why most use freighters over deep space transports.
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Barton Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
95
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Posted - 2014.11.18 11:01:55 -
[1778] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Barton Breau wrote:
Maybe you should explain how using 300k ehp and ~30s align time makes mwd cloak 100k ehp with 4 stabs unattractive.
Same reason why most use freighters over deep space transports.
When the bowhead can ferry 4-10 bs with a total value of below 500m, you will have a point. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13940
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Posted - 2014.11.18 11:07:56 -
[1779] - Quote
Barton Breau wrote:baltec1 wrote:Barton Breau wrote:
Maybe you should explain how using 300k ehp and ~30s align time makes mwd cloak 100k ehp with 4 stabs unattractive.
Same reason why most use freighters over deep space transports. When the bowhead can ferry 4-10 bs with a total value of below 500m, you will have a point.
It never will because null sec would abuse such a ship to undo the force projection nerfs.
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Fu Qjoo
Pangalactic Frontline Supply Agency
19
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Posted - 2014.11.18 11:14:33 -
[1780] - Quote
Barton Breau wrote:Fu Qjoo wrote:I do not get why this always leads to a massive threadnought. If you want to move a rigged BS now, you have 2 options:
- destroy the rigs and ship it in a JF/Freighter or have it hauled by a professional trucker
Now you get a third option. Why are you complaining? In its current state though, it is already on the edge of making option 1 and 2 extremely unattractive, which would cut 2 existing options down to 1. I do not think the game will benefit from taking options away. So I would rather see this ship at 300ish EHP fully tank fitted (well, there is no other option to fit it anyway). That forces you to chose time vs. money vs. risk. Which is good in my opinion. And for Null, it might add content as interfering with enemy logistic lines based on those ships will be a strategic option. We might see large battles around 25 escorted bowheads. Which would be good as well. Maybe you should explain how using 300k ehp and ~30s align time makes mwd cloak 100k ehp with 4 stabs unattractive.
It does not, both are viable options with specific advantages and disadvantages. Which was my point,
Making the bowhead even harder to gank would, which would be not good. |
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13940
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Posted - 2014.11.18 11:31:46 -
[1781] - Quote
Lets go over the numbers again.
With a bog standard t2 tank the bowhead comes out at 2.6 times the tank of a cargo expanded freighter and 85k more EHP than a a bulkhead freighter. In terms of speed a bowhead over 30 jumps of an average of 50 au is faster than manually transporting three battleships. In terms of usefulness the bowhead will transport an entire harpy/hawk fleet or 13 cruisers or three battleships, this is infinatly useful to null organisations, low sec corps, ship manufacturers, incursion corps and anyone else with a need to move a number of ships.
It was worked out that an incursion corp of 40 would be able to move to a new incursion using 30 bowheads escorted by 10 logi and would be as close to unkillable as you can get. No gank group would pose a threat to such a convoy.
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Anthar Thebess
803
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Posted - 2014.11.18 11:33:55 -
[1782] - Quote
Can this ship get a younger brother? Let say something that is capable of hauling a cruiser , destroyer and 2-3 frigates at the same time. It is fun you offer nice stuff for older and more wealthy players, but some stuff for new players could be also nice.
Noob Whale
Med slots : 4 Low slots : 3 Cargo Bay :1500 Ship Hangar : 225.000 m3 Total EHP : around 25k without mods Prerequisite : Ore Industrial LVL 3 , Adv Spaceship Command LVL 1
PHOEBE Retrospective
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Barton Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
95
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Posted - 2014.11.18 11:35:50 -
[1783] - Quote
Fu Qjoo wrote:Barton Breau wrote:
Maybe you should explain how using 300k ehp and ~30s align time makes mwd cloak 100k ehp with 4 stabs unattractive.
Apologies for being unprecise. My post was intended to refer to a situation in that more than one ship has to be moved. Which is obvious from the content but the wording was bad. I have edited it now.
I was kinda hoping for use cases to make your point clearer, especially for high, since much is being talked about incursion runners, where it is not unreasonable to expect 500-800m battleships, and the advantage of getting two of them into a very slow and vulnerable hull probably not being a very good thing, and a questionable time saver. |
Anonymous Forumposter
State War Academy Caldari State
111
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Posted - 2014.11.18 11:47:04 -
[1784] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Can this ship get a younger brother? Let say something that is capable of hauling a cruiser , destroyer and 2-3 frigates at the same time. It is fun you offer nice stuff for older and more wealthy players, but some stuff for new players could be also nice.
Noob Whale
Med slots : 4 Low slots : 3 Cargo Bay :1500 Ship Hangar : 225.000 m3 Total EHP : around 25k without mods Prerequisite : Ore Industrial LVL 3 , Adv Spaceship Command LVL 1
Lrn 2 Orca. |
Barton Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
95
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Posted - 2014.11.18 11:50:50 -
[1785] - Quote
Anonymous Forumposter wrote:
Lrn 2 Orca.
A faster orca without the whole mining ballast (500-700k ship bay) is not so unreasonable, however the decision to call it "Ore FREIGHTER" makes that impossible on itself, much less that the null is jumping at the 90% reduction themselves. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13942
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Posted - 2014.11.18 12:35:56 -
[1786] - Quote
Barton Breau wrote:baltec1 wrote:Lets go over the numbers again.
With a bog standard t2 tank the bowhead comes out at 2.6 times the tank of a cargo expanded freighter and 85k more EHP than a a bulkhead freighter. In terms of speed a bowhead over 30 jumps of an average of 50 au is faster than manually transporting three battleships. In terms of usefulness the bowhead will transport an entire harpy/hawk fleet or 13 cruisers or three battleships, this is infinatly useful to null organisations, low sec corps, ship manufacturers, incursion corps and anyone else with a need to move a number of ships.
It was worked out that an incursion corp of 40 would be able to move to a new incursion using 30 bowheads escorted by 10 logi and would be as close to unkillable as you can get. No gank group would pose a threat to such a convoy. And this is unfortunately why you will encounter resistance, if you have to resort to "but but but, 30 players using the thing at the same time makes it excellent!".
Try not skipping over the first paragraph.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
10648
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Posted - 2014.11.18 13:41:00 -
[1787] - Quote
Barton Breau wrote: And this is unfortunately why you will encounter resistance, if you have to resort to "but but but, 30 players using the thing at the same time makes it excellent!".
Why is that? That's exactly the same argument carebears use about the Catalyst to try and get ganking nerfed.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Anthar Thebess
803
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Posted - 2014.11.18 13:41:43 -
[1788] - Quote
Orca is still quite expensive stuff for a new player. I'm talking about ship that will be worth max 100mil , and if it could cost around 50mil , then this will be even better.
Something that new player can use to haul its stuff without investment in mining skills. Orca have much bigger cargo space and tank, and ability to boost the fleet.
PHOEBE Retrospective
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S'No Flake
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
44
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Posted - 2014.11.18 13:58:10 -
[1789] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:S'No Flake wrote:
Seriously? Like 8sec to enter warp instead of 10 makes a difference when you have only half tank? Even my NM with travel fit can get past 230k. This guy with 3 extenders + inv field and another 1600 plate in lows would have had a lot more tank.
Bad guy is bad.
Fitting plates slows your alignment down and fitting extenders makes your sig larger. Both make you easier to catch. Travel fits are ment to make you faster not slower and easier to lock.
Plates, extenders or bulkheads will give you the raw hp to survive until concord comes. The 2 seconds of align you will get with nanos will not save you when tackle has SeBos and can lock you in 2 seconds out of 8.
Seriously, you spend too much time in HS. You should spend some time hunting in null or some FW and you will see you don't even need an inty to catch people on gates.
A dessy with sebos does wonders. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13947
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Posted - 2014.11.18 15:34:49 -
[1790] - Quote
S'No Flake wrote:baltec1 wrote:S'No Flake wrote:
Seriously? Like 8sec to enter warp instead of 10 makes a difference when you have only half tank? Even my NM with travel fit can get past 230k. This guy with 3 extenders + inv field and another 1600 plate in lows would have had a lot more tank.
Bad guy is bad.
Fitting plates slows your alignment down and fitting extenders makes your sig larger. Both make you easier to catch. Travel fits are ment to make you faster not slower and easier to lock. Plates, extenders or bulkheads will give you the raw hp to survive until concord comes. The 2 seconds of align you will get with nanos will not save you when tackle has SeBos and can lock you in 2 seconds out of 8. Seriously, you spend too much time in HS. You should spend some time hunting in null or some FW and you will see you don't even need an inty to catch people on gates. A dessy with sebos does wonders.
Yet here we are with people saying a travel fit mach that is slower and more expensive than a dread is a good idea. You can dump a 50 man fleet on this thing and still walk away with a profit.
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Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
107
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Posted - 2014.11.18 16:24:31 -
[1791] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:S'No Flake wrote:baltec1 wrote:S'No Flake wrote:
Seriously? Like 8sec to enter warp instead of 10 makes a difference when you have only half tank? Even my NM with travel fit can get past 230k. This guy with 3 extenders + inv field and another 1600 plate in lows would have had a lot more tank.
Bad guy is bad.
Fitting plates slows your alignment down and fitting extenders makes your sig larger. Both make you easier to catch. Travel fits are ment to make you faster not slower and easier to lock. Plates, extenders or bulkheads will give you the raw hp to survive until concord comes. The 2 seconds of align you will get with nanos will not save you when tackle has SeBos and can lock you in 2 seconds out of 8. Seriously, you spend too much time in HS. You should spend some time hunting in null or some FW and you will see you don't even need an inty to catch people on gates. A dessy with sebos does wonders. Yet here we are with people saying a travel fit mach that is slower and more expensive than a dread is a good idea. You can dump a 50 man fleet on this thing and still walk away with a profit. Meanwhile the actual travel fit machs are aligning nearly twice as fast and are sporting a t2 fit.
where was he promoting a 3 bil isk travel fit mach?
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Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
286
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Posted - 2014.11.18 16:26:24 -
[1792] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
Yet here we are with people saying a travel fit mach that is slower and more expensive than a dread is a good idea. You can dump a 50 man fleet on this thing and still walk away with a profit. Meanwhile the actual travel fit machs are aligning nearly twice as fast and are sporting a t2 fit.
Still clueless.....you don't face 50 man gank fleets in highsec, they max out at around 25, and without enough dps to take down a brick tank even in a 0.5. Also, the point of the travel fit is to move the incursion stuff, not to move the ship! Keep scouring those killmails for an actual gank of a travel mach. Or you could just look for freighter ganks - no shortage of those. |
Yazzinra
Scorpion Ventures Rim Worlds Protectorate
53
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Posted - 2014.11.18 17:40:45 -
[1793] - Quote
I like it. Already planning on buying 3 of them for my indy/hauler alt. |
ashley Eoner
360
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Posted - 2014.11.18 18:19:49 -
[1794] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote:Highsec is already very, very safe. In fact it is probably safer than it ought to be, and it might be arguable that it is safe to an extent that is unhealthy for the game. That the only real problem players have is in certain chokepoint systems, and even then, the problem is small-scale, infers to me that highsec is very safe indeed.
Yes, I know, that is only my opinion and I have nothing substantial or statistical to back it up. It's just what I've observed. (cue the "that's just, like, your opinion man" from Lebowski)
That aside, I think the EHP on the Bowhead could use to be reverted back to the original numbers (~350k if properly fitted, if I recall correctly). I don't think gank profitability is of any relevance in this discussion, as it is a question of motive and not of the mechanics of the act, and right now it's highly questionable if profitability is even a [major] driving factor behind ganking at this time (how many times have I seen a thread titled something along the lines of "Help CCP! Empty freighters being ganked!!!"?). So putting that aside, the original EHP numbers were powerful and perfectly usable*.
*Caveat: like others have mentioned earlier in the thread, having the majority of EHP in shield is a great idea to encourage logi support.
But EHP plus or minus, it most likely won't directly effect me since I am unlikely to be able to partake in taking one down either through gank or through wardec. No, my main beef with this vessel is another point already driven home by other posters and while I know it won't change, I have to say it just the same - having yet another industrial skill that only effects one ship is just bullpocky. I'd rather see the ship rolled in with Capital Industrial Ship (someone said earlier it would have XL rigs, right? Well, isn't that capital? Well then it's an industrial ship that's capital and needs to be a part of that skillbook). Says the guy hiding behind a NPC alt....
"Look guys Highsec is TOO SAFE!!! So safe I'm hiding my real character's name because someone might spend time to gank me over and over which would ruin my play experience!! But remember highsec is super safe!"
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Anonymous Forumposter
State War Academy Caldari State
112
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Posted - 2014.11.18 18:28:30 -
[1795] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:Says the guy hiding behind a NPC alt....
"Look guys Highsec is TOO SAFE!!! So safe I'm hiding my real character's name because someone might spend time to gank me over and over which would ruin my play experience!! But remember highsec is super safe!"
ITT: Players who victimize people in high sec are upset over people effectively denying them the opportunity to victimize them. |
Valterra Craven
376
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Posted - 2014.11.18 18:35:01 -
[1796] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
It never will because null sec would abuse such a ship to undo the force projection nerfs.
Except that the two have absolutely no relation to each other. The bowhead can't move cap ships and therefore can not undo the force projection nerfs since the force projection was really all about cap ships. Its not like people were complaining that they kept getting hot dropped by battleships in the middle of nowhere.
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Barton Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
95
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Posted - 2014.11.18 18:38:44 -
[1797] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Barton Breau wrote: And this is unfortunately why you will encounter resistance, if you have to resort to "but but but, 30 players using the thing at the same time makes it excellent!".
Why is that? That's exactly the same argument carebears use about the Catalyst to try and get ganking nerfed.
And dont they face resistance? :) |
Barton Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
95
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Posted - 2014.11.18 18:44:10 -
[1798] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Barton Breau wrote:baltec1 wrote:Lets go over the numbers again.
With a bog standard t2 tank the bowhead comes out at 2.6 times the tank of a cargo expanded freighter and 85k more EHP than a a bulkhead freighter. In terms of speed a bowhead over 30 jumps of an average of 50 au is faster than manually transporting three battleships. In terms of usefulness the bowhead will transport an entire harpy/hawk fleet or 13 cruisers or three battleships, this is infinatly useful to null organisations, low sec corps, ship manufacturers, incursion corps and anyone else with a need to move a number of ships.
It was worked out that an incursion corp of 40 would be able to move to a new incursion using 30 bowheads escorted by 10 logi and would be as close to unkillable as you can get. No gank group would pose a threat to such a convoy. And this is unfortunately why you will encounter resistance, if you have to resort to "but but but, 30 players using the thing at the same time makes it excellent!". Try not skipping over the first paragraph.
I did not, i just wasnt sure we want to go trough all the back and forth about the (outside null/ops in general) debatable concept whether you will actually transport 3 trips needed ever, and being stupid if one does and the hulls are 2 bil together and so on and forth et cetera... |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13951
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Posted - 2014.11.18 19:03:23 -
[1799] - Quote
Barton Breau wrote:
I did not, i just wasnt sure we want to go trough all the back and forth about the (outside null/ops in general) debatable concept whether you will actually transport 3 trips needed ever, and being stupid if one does and the hulls are 2 bil together and so on and forth et cetera...
So dont use it. Meanwhile there is a large number of people who will have a use for this ship.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
13951
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Posted - 2014.11.18 19:04:49 -
[1800] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:baltec1 wrote:
It never will because null sec would abuse such a ship to undo the force projection nerfs.
Except that the two have absolutely no relation to each other. The bowhead can't move cap ships and therefore can not undo the force projection nerfs since the force projection was really all about cap ships. Its not like people were complaining that they kept getting hot dropped by battleships in the middle of nowhere.
Yep, nobody has ever complained about goons being able to project their vast subcap fleets anywhere they wanted for the last four years.
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