Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 [6] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
52
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 07:36:00 -
[151] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:Ruah Piskonit yep, matar should have lost his speed advantage when ac-s were buffed. Just look at the tornado wtf is that 1660mps , that is faster than my nano cruisers... clearly unbalanced.
Learn to Stabber....preferably Fleet Stabber, I can keep up with a Tornado with a 1600mm plate. |
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
64
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 03:17:00 -
[152] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote: Whatever intent CCP had years ago has long been lost in today's EVE. Also, this narrative of Amarr ships being pure gunships is just untrue: a Geddon that gets roughly a quarter of it's max DPS from drones is no more a pure gunship than a Tempest that gets roughly 75% of it's max DPS from turrets. A Harbinger much the same story, it's 50m3 dronebay accounting for roughly the same ratio of total DPS as a Hurricane fitted with missiles and damage drones. If one wanted to be absurd, I could point that Abaddon has a launcher slot. The only Amarr gunship with a smaller dronebay than it's Minmatar equivalent I can think of off the top of my head is the Zealot.
Then that is what you should be arguing for in terms of balance imo. But my point still stands - if turrets are balanced - then the ships need to be too.
Mfume Apocal wrote: The most common Amarr BS setup uses 2x TCs. I'm not sure how you missed Hellcats, given the specific fit and fleet comp is well over a year old now, but they are pretty much FOTM for seriousface fights because they can effectively reach well into medium ranges with around 600-800 DPS, good tracking (relative to their size) and sport around 180-300K EHP tank.
These setups fall under 'specilized' or 'spacific'. Amarr BBs have always been popular in fleet - high range, decent alpha, fantastic dps, good tank, and lag immuine (no reload). . . |
ElCholo
BURN EDEN Northern Coalition.
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 05:03:00 -
[153] - Quote
Eve Forums Blow Balls |
ElCholo
BURN EDEN Northern Coalition.
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 05:04:00 -
[154] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote:Being fast = dictating engagement range = Win
Plus their weapon systems track better with base stats, and have ammo that can give tracking boosts, and many of their ships have tracking bonuses.
Plus they just plain take less damage due to small sigs. If you do more damage, but then miss or lose a lot of it due to firing at a small sig radius target, then your actual DPS isn't nearly as good as the paper DPS.
Winmatar win because they can hit you when you can't hit back.
Either you can't track them, or you can't get within range while they continue to do damage to you (even if they are not doing all that much due to falloff). And of course, you can't neut them to stop them from firing like ships using hybrids and lasers, so they often have more cap to spare even if they do have weak caps.
Then figure that they are going to select their damage type, and go against your weakest resist. Your laser/hybrid may have started with more DPS, but does that still hold true when resistances are taken into account? Likely not. Then when tracking/range and sig are taken into account, your poor hit chance/quality just hands the win to the Winmatar.
The only race that can compete against those strengths is the Caldari missile boats. They also don't need cap to fire. Their primary weapons systems have ridiculously long range (Heavy missiles are just way too long ranged, wtf is up with missile skills granting a 2.25x range increase, while gunnery skils only grant a 1.25x range increase), and transversal has no effect on them, so closing the distance has no effect on applied damage. -Though pure speed does severely limit damage, as does small sig radii.
And of course, once you get into larger groups at moderate ranges, where ships get alphad, slow missiles fall out of favor, leaving Winmatar Winning Eve.
Eve ate my post. Needless to say, you are an idiot and your post is full of idiotic words that are wrong. Please stop now. |
ElCholo
BURN EDEN Northern Coalition.
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 05:12:00 -
[155] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote: I'm so stupid!
Finally, something we can all agree on! |
Cambarus
Clearly Compensating
47
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 06:58:00 -
[156] - Quote
Ruah Piskonit wrote: Then that is what you should be arguing for in terms of balance imo. But my point still stands - if turrets are balanced - then the ships need to be too.
Your point never stood. A zealot has twice the EHP of a vaga, an abso nearly twice that of a sleip, you want to compare what a pest brings to the field with an abaddon? Please.
Minmatar trade tank for speed. Nothing wrong with that. (note that there are a couple of exceptions, the cane being the most notable because it actually IS somewhat in need of a nerf)
Ruah Piskonit wrote: The key to the reason for lazors not competing with blasters is tracking. Getting 'under' the guns is to beat the tracking of pulse lazors. The medium range dps projection is only good at medium range because of tracking too - the two go hand and hand.
Lasers track a lot better than you seem to think they do, or did you forget when CCP gave them an extra 25% tracking? It's also worth noting that if you're unable to track a same-size target in an amarr ship that you are doing a very, VERY poor job at flying.
Ruah Piskonit wrote: These setups fall under 'specilized' or 'spacific'. Amarr BBs have always been popular in fleet - high range, decent alpha, fantastic dps, good tank, and lag immuine (no reload). . .
So I take it you feel that Amarr are the best race in eve, but can you at least see where I (and others) am/are coming from?
Minmatar have always been popular in smaller skirmishes and for pirating. They are, for the most part, well balanced with amarr. You nerf minmatar, amarr become OP. THAT is why many of us are against the idea. |
ElCholo
BURN EDEN Northern Coalition.
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 07:40:00 -
[157] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:You nerf minmatar, amarr become OP. THAT is why many of us are against the idea.
I think you nailed it on the head. Some people just want their Amarr to be top dog again. Personally, I would love to see Gallente or even Caldari as top dog for a bit. Anything but Amarr. They had it before Minmatar, they don't need it again this soon. This is Eve, FOTM cycles with expansions. :P |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
75
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 10:27:00 -
[158] - Quote
ElCholo wrote:Cambarus wrote:You nerf minmatar, amarr become OP. THAT is why many of us are against the idea. I think you nailed it on the head. Some people just want their Amarr to be top dog again. Personally, I would love to see Gallente or even Caldari as top dog for a bit. Anything but Amarr. They had it before Minmatar, they don't need it again this soon. This is Eve, FOTM cycles with expansions. :P
at least amarr is catcheable:P |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
140
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 10:54:00 -
[159] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:ElCholo wrote:Cambarus wrote:You nerf minmatar, amarr become OP. THAT is why many of us are against the idea. I think you nailed it on the head. Some people just want their Amarr to be top dog again. Personally, I would love to see Gallente or even Caldari as top dog for a bit. Anything but Amarr. They had it before Minmatar, they don't need it again this soon. This is Eve, FOTM cycles with expansions. :P at least amarr is catcheable:P
I haven't been having much trouble catching Minnies lately. Gal cruisers are ~5-10% faster and 10% more agile. It really really helps.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Pistrik
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 14:52:00 -
[160] - Quote
I never really understood the "nerf" mentality. Would it not make more sense to bring the surrounding systems in line with the so called OP ones, rather then removing parts of said system?
In the formers case, you can balance the other systems around the "OP" one. This has the advantage of allowing you to have a base to draw from in regards to balance. You can use the base as a guideline to move the other systems in line until they are about equal, without butchering the other system.
The latter, the nerf option, has the function of gutting parts of the system said to be overpowered... which would create a cascade of unbalances in the other system. You no longer have that base to work from, and the unbalances in the other systems will be much harder to fix. Not only will you now have to balance the system you just gutted, but you also have to balance every other systems with that one. Example being you bring Minny "in line" with the others. But now Amarr is overpowered. You now have to bring both minmatar and amarr back in line, while readjusting the other two to deal with the new values.
Seems to be it would take much more time and effort.
I never did understand the need for nerfs. I'm a pro-buff man myself. |
|
Takeshi Yamato
ALA Biomedical
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 15:12:00 -
[161] - Quote
Quote:Would it not make more sense to bring the surrounding systems in line with the so called OP ones, rather then removing parts of said system?
It would be more work and harder. Nerfing or buffing the outliers is simpler. Avoiding unpopular nerfing in favor of buffing the weak ends in performance creep - player ships keep getting better and better which eventually creates other problems. |
Kance Tzu
Lone Star Investments
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 17:48:00 -
[162] - Quote
Alexa Coates wrote: stop calling them winmatar. Thats just damn childish.
Winmatar! Winmatar! Winmatar!
Neener neener neener! =oP |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
145
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 19:38:00 -
[163] - Quote
Ruah Piskonit wrote:Then that is what you should be arguing for in terms of balance imo. But my point still stands - if turrets are balanced - then the ships need to be too. The key to the reason for lazors not competing with blasters is tracking. Getting 'under' the guns is to beat the tracking of pulse lazors.
I've only had issues with pulse tracking when trying to shoot a full shipclass lower than my turrets are meant for. I.e. frigs with HPLs or HACs with MPLs. If you've experienced something different it's probably because you fly frigs more than I do.
Mfume Apocal wrote: These setups fall under 'specilized' or 'spacific'. Amarr BBs have always been popular in fleet - high range, decent alpha, fantastic dps, good tank, and lag immuine (no reload). . .
Specialized and specific? It's literally the most common Amarr BS fit out there.
Quote:So I take it you feel that Amarr are the best race in eve, but can you at least see where I (and others) am/are coming from?
Not the best race (too subjective), but their turrets already have a comfortable margin of superiority over other turrets already. I'd probably have more sympathy for the hull issues if Amarr didn't have their own hull advantages which made them hands-down better at seriousface fights. |
Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
183
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 02:14:00 -
[164] - Quote
IMO, the hybrid balances are a good start. What remains to be balanced is more about individual ships rather than blanket nerfs or blanket buffs, as that will just inevitably make certain things OP/underpowered.
Basically:
-Clean up the whole cruiser class. Re-working the tier system so that everything is the level of the Rupture is probably the best way to do this.
-Slight buff to the Myrmidon to bring it in line with the other three tier 2 BC's.
-Moderate buff to the Astarte/Nighthawk to bring in line with the Sleip/Abso.
-Re-work the role of the Angel Cartel line up into something which doesn't obsolete many Minmatar ships - as it stands, there's little reason to use a Firetail over a Dramiel, a Vaga over a Cyna, or a Flempest over a Mach. This isn't a problem with other races; there are still reasons to use a Slicer over a Cruor or Succubus, for example.
-More useful or flexible hybrid ammo types; give us some which do mostly thermal and some which do mostly kinetic, for example. Lasers already have some variation in this, but it's mostly moot since people only ever use MF or Scorch, so perhaps adding some more variation within MF or Scorch range could also be considered.
-Do something to the Brutix. Active armor + blasters + 5 lows still just isn't that good.
However, blanket nerfing the ENTIRE Minmatar lineup for the sake of a few superior ships (Machs, Cynabals, and Drams) is unnecessary. |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
52
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 02:33:00 -
[165] - Quote
Roosterton wrote:
However, blanket nerfing the ENTIRE Minmatar lineup for the sake of a few superior ships (Machs, Cynabals, and Drams) is unnecessary.
Nerfing a Mach for the sake of Tracking Enhancers is unnecessary, too. I'd say that at least a half of its OP-factor goes to TEs. 2008, CCP Zulu(park): "command ships are fine as is" 2011, CCP Greyscale: "is the Nighthawk actually underpowered?" Nice progress, guys. |
Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
183
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 03:30:00 -
[166] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:Roosterton wrote:
However, blanket nerfing the ENTIRE Minmatar lineup for the sake of a few superior ships (Machs, Cynabals, and Drams) is unnecessary.
Nerfing a Mach for the sake of Tracking Enhancers is unnecessary, too. I'd say that at least a half of its OP-factor goes to TEs.
Tracking enhancers affect lasers just as well as AC's. Tracking computers are even better, and most kiting minmatar ships don't have the free midslots to fit them. |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
77
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 08:49:00 -
[167] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:Ruah Piskonit wrote:Then that is what you should be arguing for in terms of balance imo. But my point still stands - if turrets are balanced - then the ships need to be too. The key to the reason for lazors not competing with blasters is tracking. Getting 'under' the guns is to beat the tracking of pulse lazors. I've only had issues with pulse tracking when trying to shoot a full shipclass lower than my turrets are meant for. I.e. frigs with HPLs or HACs with MPLs. If you've experienced something different it's probably because you fly frigs more than I do. Mfume Apocal wrote: These setups fall under 'specilized' or 'spacific'. Amarr BBs have always been popular in fleet - high range, decent alpha, fantastic dps, good tank, and lag immuine (no reload). . .
Specialized and specific? It's literally the most common Amarr BS fit out there. Quote:So I take it you feel that Amarr are the best race in eve, but can you at least see where I (and others) am/are coming from? Not the best race (too subjective), but their turrets already have a comfortable margin of superiority over other turrets already. I'd probably have more sympathy for the hull issues if Amarr didn't have their own hull advantages which made them hands-down better at seriousface fights.
Why should anybody listen to you? You dont even know what hail ammo does , and you fly matar ships...
|
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
147
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 11:06:00 -
[168] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:Why should anybody listen to you? You dont even know what hail ammo does , and you fly matar ships...
It's pretty rare I fly autocannon ships, because they are pretty ******* bad for the kind of stuff I mainly do. Hail had it's falloff penalty set to 25% when I'd last checked v0v. And I think removing it entirely is ********. Didn't think CCP would be that silly but w/e, not my company!
Also: if you're going to throw the experience card, you might want to have more than 20 kills in a solid six months. |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
52
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 14:53:00 -
[169] - Quote
Roosterton wrote:Fon Revedhort wrote:Roosterton wrote:
However, blanket nerfing the ENTIRE Minmatar lineup for the sake of a few superior ships (Machs, Cynabals, and Drams) is unnecessary.
Nerfing a Mach for the sake of Tracking Enhancers is unnecessary, too. I'd say that at least a half of its OP-factor goes to TEs. Tracking enhancers affect lasers just as well as AC's. Tracking computers are even better, and most kiting minmatar ships don't have the free midslots to fit them. No, they don't. Literally nothing has changed for lasers when TE's were given +30% falloff bonus. While AC got severely boosted. 2008, CCP Zulu(park): "command ships are fine as is" 2011, CCP Greyscale: "is the Nighthawk actually underpowered?" Nice progress, guys. |
Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
185
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 15:07:00 -
[170] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:Roosterton wrote:Fon Revedhort wrote:Roosterton wrote:
However, blanket nerfing the ENTIRE Minmatar lineup for the sake of a few superior ships (Machs, Cynabals, and Drams) is unnecessary.
Nerfing a Mach for the sake of Tracking Enhancers is unnecessary, too. I'd say that at least a half of its OP-factor goes to TEs. Tracking enhancers affect lasers just as well as AC's. Tracking computers are even better, and most kiting minmatar ships don't have the free midslots to fit them. No, they don't. Literally nothing has changed for lasers when TE's were given +30% falloff bonus. While AC got severely boosted.
You're right, instead lasers get a +15% optimal bonus. Optimal is massively more useful than falloff.
Or you could, you know, use a tracking computer, which more minmatar ships don't have the privilege of doing? Same optimal/falloff bonus, but you get to switch it with tracking. |
|
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
52
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 15:21:00 -
[171] - Quote
I'm sorry, but advocating for TEs being fine just results in you looking clueless. 2008, CCP Zulu(park): "command ships are fine as is" 2011, CCP Greyscale: "is the Nighthawk actually underpowered?" Nice progress, guys. |
Cipher Jones
130
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 17:18:00 -
[172] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Quote:stop calling them winmatar. Thats just damn childish.
'HURR I R BETTER DAN U CUZ I FLY RUST LOLOLOLOL' Nice job completely missing the point, idiot. The term "Winmatar" refers to how hilariously OP the race as a whole is. Still, great stuff, yet another buff to the best weapon system in the game. I guess CCP just couldn't have a hybrid buff without giving the projectile packing pwnmobiles some extra love.
It comes from the nubs who think that the Dram, Cyn, and Mach are Minmatar ships for the most part TBPFH.
See what happens when fat neckbeards try to ride little ponies? The ponies die. |
Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
186
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 17:50:00 -
[173] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:I'm sorry, but advocating for TEs being fine just results in you looking clueless.
There are these things called "facts." Using them when you argue instead of factlessly calling someone clueless tends to make your terrible argument look a little better. |
Niko Takahashi
United Starbase Systems
14
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 22:21:00 -
[174] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Zeomebuch Nova wrote: Stabber
Really? The stabber? /facepalm On to a more serious note: The Hybrid changes stand to change several of these rankings. For example the difference between the Rupture and Vexor/Thorax is actually fairly low and we may actually see them simply reverse positions as they did immediately after the projectile boost. The Thrasher may do the same - there's lots of heavy breathing on vent when people talk about 500 DPS Catalysts. I think its amusing that you point out the Cyclone because in a lot of ways the Cyclone is already not the best Tier 1 BC. The Ferox is about as good at bait tanking while the Brutix is actually a better damage dealer (and getting better tonight). I won't be really surprised to hear that both of these ships have become much more popular at the given role than the Cyclone. The Hurricane comparison is just ridiculous because the Harbinger and Drake are both better at straight up brawling. That's not to say that the Hurricane can't run away - because it can - but that doesn't make it better at really fighting. The same kind of thing goes for the Vaga and Muninn vs the Zealot. The Zealot is just better on the whole - as we might expect.. I don't mean to say that there aren't Minnie ships that are hands down the best - for example I would say that the Sleip, Claymore, and Sabre are the best. I'm also convinced that your concerns about the Mach and Cyanabal are somewhat well founded - though I don't personally believe its projectiles that push them over the top. Anyway - if we see a Minnie/projectile nerf, we see it. I don't really have a horse in the race except requesting that we nerf the appropriate stats for the right reasons. :) -Liang Ed: Rereading Cambarus' post makes me realize you were theoretically just comparing Amarr and Minmatar. There are several Amarr ships which are just simply garbage - but none of them are really in positions of concern. For example, the Omen and Retribution are both terrible but it doesn't matter because nobody does anything with those ship classes anyway.
Just to add some comments
Drone based gallente ships were OK before the buff now they will really kick ass. My gripe with minmatar is not so with the weapons them self but with the fitting posible you can stuff on their ships almost anything you imagine.
Try to fit for example 2 heavy neuts 6 of the siege launchers MWD and cap booster on the raven :)
|
Vanessa Vale
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 02:22:00 -
[175] - Quote
As I was reading I had to check the thread 3 times to be sure it wasn't something from a couple years ago.
Exactly the same crappiness with exactly the same minmatar ships, same arguments about them being win, same "balance" style of letting them be as crappiest as possible but still be able to sort of run away.
I remember shortly before I left that I was running around finding people and realizing most of the time the best outcome would be for me to be able to run away if I dared to engage, while their worst would be for me to run away. No, it wasn't fun and I Ieft.
But its ok. I'll just continue to train my amarr skills as I reminisce about better times where minmatar ships were feared rather than considered overpowered because they grief people when they run away unable to kill yet another ship. Maybe this time I'll hold my sub long enough to forget my beloved minmatar.
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 [6] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |