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Catherine Laartii
Providence Guard Templis CALSF
341
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Posted - 2014.10.28 18:17:25 -
[1] - Quote
Please add ice belts to w-space, as they are the only thing missing from the space for wormholers making their own local fuel blocks. Idea would be that they would introduce a new type of ice titled 'Ancient Silver ice' that would spawn once a week at random times. Its yield would be equal parts all ice products, and would not carry more yield than any of the normal ice types. Greater spawn frequency and heavier types as you see from a highsec to nullsec transition would also occur progressively in the higher level wormholes you see. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
6422
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Posted - 2014.10.28 18:23:48 -
[2] - Quote
I believe the point behind the lack of ice in Wormhole systems is that you are not supposed to be entirely self sufficient (so you can't simply seal yourself off from the rest of the game).
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?"
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Catherine Laartii
Providence Guard Templis CALSF
341
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Posted - 2014.10.28 18:33:56 -
[3] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:I believe the point behind the lack of ice in Wormhole systems is that you are not supposed to be entirely self sufficient (so you can't simply seal yourself off from the rest of the game). The biggest question is 'why' aren't pilots supposed to be self-sufficient? Wormholes aren't sealed from the rest of the game since any hermit with a decent-sized pocket book and an alt can already live in w-space as they are, but have to defend themselves from interlopers. They just have to pay a little more for shipping blocks in from outside and keep an alt on backup in case they lose their pod and have to find a new way back if the hole closes.
I find the notion that wormholes are somehow supposed to be places to take daytrips to be disingenuous. They were introduced as no-strings attatched content back in apocrypha for player to do with without any instruction or real stated guidelines. If people want to live in them permanently (as many already do), then they should have the tools to make that a little more viable. |
Tonai Kion
Tactical Grace Inc. Nerfed Alliance Go Away
13
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Posted - 2014.10.28 18:43:48 -
[4] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:I believe the point behind the lack of ice in Wormhole systems is that you are not supposed to be entirely self sufficient (so you can't simply seal yourself off from the rest of the game). The biggest question is 'why' aren't pilots supposed to be self-sufficient? Wormholes aren't sealed from the rest of the game since any hermit with a decent-sized pocket book and an alt can already live in w-space as they are, but have to defend themselves from interlopers. They just have to pay a little more for shipping blocks in from outside and keep an alt on backup in case they lose their pod and have to find a new way back if the hole closes. I find the notion that wormholes are somehow supposed to be places to take daytrips to be disingenuous. They were introduced as no-strings attatched content back in apocrypha for player to do with without any instruction or real stated guidelines. If people want to live in them permanently (as many already do), then they should have the tools to make that a little more viable.
I'll take your question and ask you, why should wormholers be self-sufficient?
Null sec depends on cheap goods from high sec and npc seeded items from there to function, to say nothing of the fact that Null needs the low end minerals from high sec to do any useful manufacturing. Why should Wormholes be any different in needing another area of space to function? |
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
interstellar initiative Incorporated
316
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Posted - 2014.10.28 18:54:38 -
[5] - Quote
I would rather see individual masses of ice spawn inside the existing ore anoms, not in large quantities rather more as a bonus to whoever is mining. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
6425
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Posted - 2014.10.28 18:58:53 -
[6] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:The biggest question is 'why' aren't pilots supposed to be self-sufficient? Simple; to force conflict.
Plus, no part of EVE is entirely self sufficient.
- high-sec requires high-end minerals/ice and moon materials from null-sec to perform anything other than Tech 1 industry... in addition to a supply of Pirate Faction, Officer, and other very high-end stuff. - null-sec requires the vast, cheap workforce of high-sec to procure large amounts of low-end minerals as well as NPCs for skill books, faction mods, and "safe industry." - low-sec relies on both high-sec and null-sec for... well... just about everything except security status.
Wormholes already allow people to mostly be self-sufficient in all but one major way; ice products for POS towers. In fact... wormholes allow you to be more self-sufficient than almost any other type of system out there.
Catherine Laartii wrote:Wormholes aren't sealed from the rest of the game since any hermit with a decent-sized pocket book and an alt can already live in w-space as they are, but have to defend themselves from interlopers. When I say "sealed off" I am saying that you do not have to deal with people outside of your own turf.
Catherine Laartii wrote:They just have to pay a little more for shipping blocks in from outside and keep an alt on backup in case they lose their pod and have to find a new way back if the hole closes. See! Conflict! Working as intended!
Catherine Laartii wrote:I find the notion that wormholes are somehow supposed to be places to take daytrips to be disingenuous. They were introduced as no-strings attatched content back in apocrypha for player to do with without any instruction or real stated guidelines. If people want to live in them permanently (as many already do), then they should have the tools to make that a little more viable. The DEVs were orginally going to disable POSs from being anchored in WHs... but they figured that no one would do such a thing (due to the amount of effort involved in maintaining it) and let it be. People then starting living in WHs and the DEVs were pleasantly surprised.
But the point still stands; if you have all the materials you need to be entirely self sufficient for what reason would you leave your system at all? How would you or other players be forced to interact with each other?
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?"
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Ix Method
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
207
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Posted - 2014.10.28 19:10:14 -
[7] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Catherine Laartii wrote:The biggest question is 'why' aren't pilots supposed to be self-sufficient? Simple; to force conflict. Exactly true.
It is a fairly ridiculous situation though. If the Venture could mine Ice dipping into low/null would seem much more of a reasonable compromise but for whatever reason ice is made harder to mine than ore.
It would definitely be nice to see it looked at, relying almost entirely on highsec AFK miners to fuel everything seems poor.
Travelling at the speed of love.
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
407
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Posted - 2014.10.28 20:05:14 -
[8] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Catherine Laartii wrote:The biggest question is 'why' aren't pilots supposed to be self-sufficient? Simple; to force conflict. Plus, no part of EVE is entirely self sufficient.
Shah dear, even if wh-space would get some ice to fuel control towers, you still have to get out of your wh or all of that precious stuff you can collect isn't worth anything.
You can collect riches all day long for an entire lifetime but if you want to make isk, you need to exit the hole and sell it.
Funny and not so funny stuff can happen on the way - it's conflict I believe.
And for all intents and purposes you can have conflict all day long in w-space by just going there and warp to the next site on your scanner.
You can kill complex runners or you could de-spawn an Empire exit so that w-space inhabitants would have to take a route through low or nullsec.
For w-space to become "self-sufficient" you would need to drop an outpost egg and create a new w-space Jita. But you cannot claim sleeper-space or drop an outpost egg, nor did anyone ask for one.
Conflict is enough to be had and even more if you interrupt an ice-mining op.
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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
861
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Posted - 2014.10.28 20:09:32 -
[9] - Quote
Ix Method wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:Catherine Laartii wrote:The biggest question is 'why' aren't pilots supposed to be self-sufficient? Simple; to force conflict. Exactly true. It is a fairly ridiculous situation though. If the Venture could mine Ice dipping into low/null would seem much more of a reasonable compromise but for whatever reason ice is made harder to mine than ore. It would definitely be nice to see it looked at, relying almost entirely on highsec AFK miners to fuel everything seems poor.
Why do you rely on highsec afk miners to fuel your everything? You know that you can have null/low sec ice mining incursions from your WHs, right? Or you mine the ice on your own with non-afk miners. You don't have to rely on anybody, but if you don't, you have to put a bit more effort into your game. If you don't do that, why are you complaining about high sec afk miners?
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Ix Method
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
211
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Posted - 2014.10.28 20:14:53 -
[10] - Quote
You do like missing the point and getting angry don't you
I said exactly the same but suggested mining barges are somewhat unwieldy for the task. Hope that meets with your approval o/
Travelling at the speed of love.
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
6427
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Posted - 2014.10.28 20:21:21 -
[11] - Quote
Who needs ISK when you can set up your own small production line and produce all the T3s you want? Of course... that is what I would be saying if I didn't have to buy fuel blocks.
And compared to FW low-sec... WH space is a goddamn vacation. Few, if any, roaming gangs... no hotdropping... cloaky ships that can probe are either deliciously squishy or completely vulnerable to ECM... I'm still trying to get a handle on the NPCs though... WH dwellers by and large have no idea how good they have it.
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?"
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Lugh Crow-Slave
189
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Posted - 2014.10.28 20:22:30 -
[12] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote: The biggest question is 'why' aren't pilots supposed to be self-sufficient? .
Well i'm not sure if you have noticed or not but.... this is what we call an mmo. You are supposed to interact and trade with other people it breads content and conflict for all.
if you want to know the best way to get ice into your WH i find chaining to drone regions. I find one day can get you more then enough to run two large towers for a month |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
11790
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Posted - 2014.10.28 20:44:36 -
[13] - Quote
As some people have already mentioned in this thread, we do intentionally set up resources to encourage trade and movement, leaving surpluses and deficits of certain things in different areas of space.
That being said, I think we may be able to make some changes in this particular area in the near future. It probably won't be in the way you expect though.
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/
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Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
381
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Posted - 2014.10.28 20:51:34 -
[14] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:As some people have already mentioned in this thread, we do intentionally set up resources to encourage trade and movement, leaving surpluses and deficits of certain things in different areas of space. That being said, I think we may be able to make some changes in this particular area in the near future. It probably won't be in the way you expect though.
I seriously hope you intend to work on creating new/modifying existing sites to be more interactive and less like k-space. I would like to see something closer to the burner missions introduced a few patches ago.
Also please give the corax some extra grid. A friend was just showing me a few fits of his and 2-3 fitting mods just to fill his mids is kind of sad.
And don't be scared to comment on more threads we like to know what you think.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=348015
T3 OHing subsystem review and rebalance
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=290346
LP faction weapon store costs rebalancing
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Forged of Fire
593
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Posted - 2014.10.28 21:13:54 -
[15] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:As some people have already mentioned in this thread, we do intentionally set up resources to encourage trade and movement, leaving surpluses and deficits of certain things in different areas of space. That being said, I think we may be able to make some changes in this particular area in the near future. It probably won't be in the way you expect though.
I don't think I have ever read a more ominous Dev statement. If I lived in a WH, I'd be terrified at the implications of that statement.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
407
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Posted - 2014.10.28 21:22:52 -
[16] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:As some people have already mentioned in this thread, we do intentionally set up resources to encourage trade and movement, leaving surpluses and deficits of certain things in different areas of space. That being said, I think we may be able to make some changes in this particular area in the near future. It probably won't be in the way you expect though.
For Christ sake, just do us a favor and respond with a clear answer.
By being vague I can only assume that another torpedo nerf is incoming because we had an idea that would make our second lifes easier.
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Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
5000
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Posted - 2014.10.28 21:43:27 -
[17] - Quote
So, comet mining or solar harvesting?
Sovereignty and Population
New Mining Mechanics
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Ix Method
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
215
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Posted - 2014.10.28 22:02:23 -
[18] - Quote
Or death to all POS. Come on the speculation
Travelling at the speed of love.
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
407
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Posted - 2014.10.28 22:20:38 -
[19] - Quote
Or super-caps in c8 w-space
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Catherine Laartii
Providence Guard Templis CALSF
344
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Posted - 2014.10.28 22:25:55 -
[20] - Quote
Tonai Kion wrote:Catherine Laartii wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:I believe the point behind the lack of ice in Wormhole systems is that you are not supposed to be entirely self sufficient (so you can't simply seal yourself off from the rest of the game). The biggest question is 'why' aren't pilots supposed to be self-sufficient? Wormholes aren't sealed from the rest of the game since any hermit with a decent-sized pocket book and an alt can already live in w-space as they are, but have to defend themselves from interlopers. They just have to pay a little more for shipping blocks in from outside and keep an alt on backup in case they lose their pod and have to find a new way back if the hole closes. I find the notion that wormholes are somehow supposed to be places to take daytrips to be disingenuous. They were introduced as no-strings attatched content back in apocrypha for player to do with without any instruction or real stated guidelines. If people want to live in them permanently (as many already do), then they should have the tools to make that a little more viable. I'll take your question and ask you, why should wormholers be self-sufficient? Null sec depends on cheap goods from high sec and npc seeded items from there to function, to say nothing of the fact that Null needs the low end minerals from high sec to do any useful manufacturing. Why should Wormholes be any different in needing another area of space to function? Nullsec shouldn't have to depend on hisec for its goods and neither should w-space. |
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Catherine Laartii
Providence Guard Templis CALSF
345
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Posted - 2014.10.28 22:29:21 -
[21] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:As some people have already mentioned in this thread, we do intentionally set up resources to encourage trade and movement, leaving surpluses and deficits of certain things in different areas of space. That being said, I think we may be able to make some changes in this particular area in the near future. It probably won't be in the way you expect though. *fangirls* |
Catherine Laartii
Providence Guard Templis CALSF
345
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Posted - 2014.10.28 22:31:16 -
[22] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:So, comet mining or solar harvesting? I could definitely get behind comet mining. There was a thread somewhere about comets... |
Catherine Laartii
Providence Guard Templis CALSF
345
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Posted - 2014.10.28 22:39:33 -
[23] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Catherine Laartii wrote:The biggest question is 'why' aren't pilots supposed to be self-sufficient? Simple; to force conflict. Plus, no part of EVE is entirely self sufficient. - high-sec requires high-end minerals/ice and moon materials from null-sec to perform anything other than Tech 1 industry... in addition to a supply of Pirate Faction, Officer, and other very high-end stuff. - null-sec requires the vast, cheap workforce of high-sec to procure large amounts of low-end minerals as well as NPCs for skill books, faction mods, and "safe industry." - low-sec relies on both high-sec and null-sec for... well... just about everything except security status. Wormholes already allow people to mostly be self-sufficient in all but one major way; ice products for POS towers. In fact... wormholes allow you to be more self-sufficient than almost any other type of system out there. Catherine Laartii wrote:Wormholes aren't sealed from the rest of the game since any hermit with a decent-sized pocket book and an alt can already live in w-space as they are, but have to defend themselves from interlopers. When I say "sealed off" I am saying that you do not have to deal with people outside of your own turf. Catherine Laartii wrote:They just have to pay a little more for shipping blocks in from outside and keep an alt on backup in case they lose their pod and have to find a new way back if the hole closes. See! Conflict! Working as intended! Catherine Laartii wrote:I find the notion that wormholes are somehow supposed to be places to take daytrips to be disingenuous. They were introduced as no-strings attatched content back in apocrypha for player to do with without any instruction or real stated guidelines. If people want to live in them permanently (as many already do), then they should have the tools to make that a little more viable. The DEVs were orginally going to disable POSs from being anchored in WHs... but they figured that no one would do such a thing (due to the amount of effort involved in maintaining it) and let it be. People then starting living in WHs and the DEVs were pleasantly surprised. But the point still stands; if you have all the materials you need to be entirely self sufficient for what reason would you leave your system at all? How would you or other players be forced to interact with each other?
For the last question: A quiet c1 or c2 with a null static is a great place to retire in or take an extended vacation to. if someone can build their fuel locally then not only is the person who shacks up in a small hole able to maintain it easily enough, the big w-space alliances have some more weight off their backs for maintaining themselves. Short of banning starbases in w-space there's isn't a damn thing that the devs can do to keep people from trying to live in w-space.
So in regards to the question, "If you have all the materials you need to be entirely self suffiient what reason would you leave your system at all?" well, to sell things for one. And in regards to being forced to interact with each other that's pretty easy; you can't lock your door in w-space even if you can close it. People will wander in no matter what class wh you're in, and it's still a pretty high probability that you'll run into people to fight. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
864
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Posted - 2014.10.28 22:45:52 -
[24] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote: Null sec depends on cheap goods from high sec and npc seeded items from there to function, to say nothing of the fact that Null needs the low end minerals from high sec to do any useful manufacturing. Why should Wormholes be any different in needing another area of space to function?
Nullsec shouldn't have to depend on hisec for its goods and neither should w-space.[/quote]
Null sec does not depend on High sec. At all. All the low end minerals are available in the regular belts. They just need to be mined. Null sec has all the Moon minerals necessary for any production. Null sec has the money generating capabilities as well. What's missing? Well, the change in attitude and perspective towards the game in the player base. That's all.
In my opinion, EVE should not be 1 community; it should be many. None needs to interact with the other. They can be parallel societies if you will, who then have real reasons to clash and fight proper wars, not the rubbish currently (the last 4 years or so) taking place in EVE. Basically, in Null sec there should be societies living all sec levels (High/Low/Null) of EVE on their own. This would mean that the players don't have a choice about what they do if they are part of one society, they would just have to help their society struggle and hurdle forward. In the end, it would also mean that the societies have to use all their resources, which means they have to mine everything they can get their hands on in their realm, not just cherry picked anoms. And if their minerals deplete, they have to fight over new mineral grounds, new moons, now ice fields. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
940
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Posted - 2014.10.28 23:21:44 -
[25] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:pend on High sec. At all. All the low end minerals are available in the regular belts. They just need to be mined. Null sec has all the Moon minerals necessary for any production. Null sec has the money generating capabilities as well. What's missing? Well, the change in attitude and perspective towards the game in the player base. That's all.
Unfortunately, infrastructure hub upgrades, outposts, outpost upgrades, new blueprints, and skillbooks all have to come from Empire. Many of these must be moved via freighter. So, no, nullsec is, in fact still dependent on empire, even while implicitly accepting your facile argument as truth.
This doesn't even get into the nightmare of trying to trade moon minerals GÇô a very regional material GÇô-áwithout a neutral trading ground, such as empire.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Leonard Nimoy II
Dark Force Protectorate Special Operators Federation Alliance
52
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Posted - 2014.10.28 23:32:24 -
[26] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:Nullsec shouldn't have to depend on hisec for its goods and neither should w-space.
THIS. ^^
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Tonai Kion
Tactical Grace Inc. Nerfed Alliance Go Away
14
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Posted - 2014.10.29 00:27:31 -
[27] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote: Nullsec shouldn't have to depend on hisec for its goods and neither should w-space.
Oh cool, I guess null sec and high sec shouldn't be dependent on Wormholes for Tech 3 supplies then. Glad to see you support the inclusion of sleeper spawns in Null sec. :) |
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow The Revenant Order
4293
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Posted - 2014.10.29 00:37:03 -
[28] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Catherine Laartii wrote:The biggest question is 'why' aren't pilots supposed to be self-sufficient? Simple; to force conflict. Plus, no part of EVE is entirely self sufficient. - high-sec requires high-end minerals/ice and moon materials from null-sec to perform anything other than Tech 1 industry... in addition to a supply of Pirate Faction, Officer, and other very high-end stuff. - null-sec requires the vast, cheap workforce of high-sec to procure large amounts of low-end minerals as well as NPCs for skill books, faction mods, and "safe industry." - low-sec relies on both high-sec and null-sec for... well... just about everything except security status. Wormholes already allow people to mostly be self-sufficient in all but one major way; ice products for POS towers. In fact... wormholes allow you to be more self-sufficient than almost any other type of system out there. Catherine Laartii wrote:Wormholes aren't sealed from the rest of the game since any hermit with a decent-sized pocket book and an alt can already live in w-space as they are, but have to defend themselves from interlopers. When I say "sealed off" I am saying that you do not have to deal with people outside of your own turf. Catherine Laartii wrote:They just have to pay a little more for shipping blocks in from outside and keep an alt on backup in case they lose their pod and have to find a new way back if the hole closes. See! Conflict! Working as intended! Catherine Laartii wrote:I find the notion that wormholes are somehow supposed to be places to take daytrips to be disingenuous. They were introduced as no-strings attatched content back in apocrypha for player to do with without any instruction or real stated guidelines. If people want to live in them permanently (as many already do), then they should have the tools to make that a little more viable. The DEVs were orginally going to disable POSs from being anchored in WHs... but they figured that no one would do such a thing (due to the amount of effort involved in maintaining it) and let it be. People then starting living in WHs and the DEVs were pleasantly surprised. But the point still stands; if you have all the materials you need to be entirely self sufficient for what reason would you leave your system at all? How would you or other players be forced to interact with each other? This
I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Demon your parents warned you about.
||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Tug-class Vessel||
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Arronicus
Bitter Lemons Brothers of Tangra
1202
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Posted - 2014.10.29 00:38:13 -
[29] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:As some people have already mentioned in this thread, we do intentionally set up resources to encourage trade and movement, leaving surpluses and deficits of certain things in different areas of space. That being said, I think we may be able to make some changes in this particular area in the near future. It probably won't be in the way you expect though.
Has there been any worthwhile consideration into making different regions of nullsec deficient in different minerals to encourage inter-regional trade instead of the entire stale status quo for all of nullsec: Import 2/3 of the mexallon you need, Export most of your zydrine, megacyte, morphite, and some of nocxium ? |
Catherine Laartii
Providence Guard Templis CALSF
347
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Posted - 2014.10.29 01:56:57 -
[30] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Catherine Laartii wrote: Null sec depends on cheap goods from high sec and npc seeded items from there to function, to say nothing of the fact that Null needs the low end minerals from high sec to do any useful manufacturing. Why should Wormholes be any different in needing another area of space to function?
Nullsec shouldn't have to depend on hisec for its goods and neither should w-space.
Null sec does not depend on High sec. At all. All the low end minerals are available in the regular belts. They just need to be mined. Null sec has all the Moon minerals necessary for any production. Null sec has the money generating capabilities as well. What's missing? Well, the change in attitude and perspective towards the game in the player base. That's all.
In my opinion, EVE should not be 1 community; it should be many. None needs to interact with the other. They can be parallel societies if you will, who then have real reasons to clash and fight proper wars, not the rubbish currently (the last 4 years or so) taking place in EVE. Basically, in Null sec there should be societies living all sec levels (High/Low/Null) of EVE on their own. This would mean that the players don't have a choice about what they do if they are part of one society, they would just have to help their society struggle and hurdle forward. In the end, it would also mean that the societies have to use all their resources, which means they have to mine everything they can get their hands on in their realm, not just cherry picked anoms. And if their minerals deplete, they have to fight over new mineral grounds, new moons, now ice fields.[/quote] Please fix your quotes as I did not say that first part. Thank you. |
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