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JP Eulienne
University of Caille Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2014.10.28 15:10:55 -
[61] - Quote
I have nothing interesting to add as I'm a bit thick and can't keep up with what's being said. I just thought i'd say that it's nice to see some positive discussion for once. |
Liam Antolliere
University of Caille Gallente Federation
46
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Posted - 2014.10.28 15:51:38 -
[62] - Quote
Jace Sarice wrote: I have seen no part of the Federation that functions in the way you have recently described - it certainly isn't the Senate or any of the localities I have visited over the years. Perhaps there is one of the Federated states that functions in such a way that I am aware of, but there is little evidence that the Federation itself utilizes public initiatives in the way you suggest.
With all respect Monsieur Sarice,
Are you a citizen of the Federation or have you been one at any point in your life?
It is easy to develop a misconception from the outside.
"Let it never be said that I have not been true to myself and, in so doing, true to those around me."
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Jace Sarice
17747
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Posted - 2014.10.28 16:25:29 -
[63] - Quote
Liam Antolliere wrote:Jace Sarice wrote: I have seen no part of the Federation that functions in the way you have recently described - it certainly isn't the Senate or any of the localities I have visited over the years. Perhaps there is one of the Federated states that functions in such a way that I am aware of, but there is little evidence that the Federation itself utilizes public initiatives in the way you suggest.
With all respect Monsieur Sarice, Are you a citizen of the Federation or have you been one at any point in your life? It is easy to develop a misconception from the outside.
It is also easy to research the general political structure of massive governmental organizations such as the Federation. This isn't a shadowy organization the details of which are only discovered via joining. Growing up in the Federation may provide different insights and opinions, but not facts. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Imperial Outlaws.
4034
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Posted - 2014.10.28 16:25:43 -
[64] - Quote
Deacon Abox wrote:All this Caldari bullshit is just divide and conquer. They don't give a rat's ass for Jin Mei or Intaki freedom or their own people for that matter. It is all about the overarching business motivation, the profit motive. Any other reasons given for their actions is just a smoke screen to achieve that end.
Yes. It is possible to have the most collectivist of the four empires whilst not giving a rat's ass about your own people. Clearly you know us and our hollow lives entirely too well. We certainly haven't continuously sacrificed our own standard of living and freedoms for the good of the group ever since the first Civire was ass-deep in a snowdrift.
You mistake hard choices and pragmatism for a lack of emotion. Clearly you have never spoken to a Caldari about anything they care about.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1364
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Posted - 2014.10.28 17:31:01 -
[65] - Quote
Liam Antolliere wrote:Jace Sarice wrote: I have seen no part of the Federation that functions in the way you have recently described - it certainly isn't the Senate or any of the localities I have visited over the years. Perhaps there is one of the Federated states that functions in such a way that I am aware of, but there is little evidence that the Federation itself utilizes public initiatives in the way you suggest.
With all respect Monsieur Sarice, Are you a citizen of the Federation or have you been one at any point in your life? It is easy to develop a misconception from the outside. I always suspected him as a gallentean bootlicker. Should take a note down with this observation, thanks. |
Liam Antolliere
University of Caille Gallente Federation
47
|
Posted - 2014.10.28 19:31:46 -
[66] - Quote
Jace Sarice wrote: It is also easy to research the general political structure of massive governmental organizations such as the Federation. This isn't a shadowy organization the details of which are only discovered via joining. Growing up in the Federation may provide different insights and opinions, but not facts.
Monsieur Jarice,
The Federal Senate's primary function is to pass new legislation into law and to regulate the taxation and fiscal spending of the government. The process of passing new legislation into law is done primarily be placing the intended law before a vote of the people, who then vote for or against the law as it is written.
Prior to all of this, citizens in the various districts of the Federation are encouraged to communicate with their senators and use other various legal avenues available to them to affect the language and implementation of a particular legislative bill. The Senate would then compose a law in accordance with the will of its constituents, which then goes before the people for a vote. This practice is called democracy.
In a Republic, the majority of legislation is passed by elected officials without ever being brought before the public. Yes, the constituents can still contact their elected representatives and affect the language and implementation of a law, but the vote is held internally within the body of representatives and is not brought before the public. This practice is called a republic.
The difference is subtle, but it is most certainly there.
In short:
Democracy: 4,800,000 votes for, 2,200,000 votes against. Bill passes by popular majority. (Popular vote) Republic: Elected representatives for districts 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 10,11,13 and 15 vote for; elected representatives for districts 2, 4, 6, 8, 12 and 14 vote against. Bill passes by majority. (Electoral vote)
The Gallente Federation is closer to the former, the Minmatar Republic is closer to the latter. (Except they would have tribal representation rather than district numbers).
"Let it never be said that I have not been true to myself and, in so doing, true to those around me."
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1368
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Posted - 2014.10.28 19:58:51 -
[67] - Quote
Liam Antolliere wrote: Democracy: 4,800,000 votes for, 2,200,000 votes against. Bill passes by popular majority. (Popular vote)
Lets now imagine, we have 4 800 000 gallenteans, and 2 200 000 caldari. The bill would be: "Lets take all Caldari colonies and give them to Gallenteans, so all gallenteans, who don't work there, can recieve profits from them too! (because it is not fair that Caldari do have profits from their colonies, and Gallenteand don't)" You will have 4 800 000 votes for, and 2 200 000 votes against. Bill passes by. That's how the Federation operates. |
Jace Sarice
17828
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Posted - 2014.10.28 20:36:02 -
[68] - Quote
Liam Antolliere wrote:[...]
I think you are confused about the manner in which your government functions. Legislation does not rely on the direct involvement of the population in any way. I agree with you that what you describe could be labeled as more democratic than republic, but it is not what the Federation consists of. |
Liam Antolliere
University of Caille Gallente Federation
47
|
Posted - 2014.10.28 20:45:47 -
[69] - Quote
Using the information you've provided, I will illustrate why I am not confused.
You will notice mention of lobbyists. You will also notice mention of their influence in politics. Including "what bills are presented before the Senate."
In other words, the Senate does not write the legislation without external influence and approval. Whom do lobbyists appeal to? The common populace. How do lobbyists control which bills are presented before the Senate? By influencing the popular vote of the common populace.
Ergo, the common populace is in control over which bills get presented before the Senate to be written into legislation via the lobbyist factions. I can further substantiate this with this information. Particularly the part which states "it is common for major issues to go to a public vote instead of being solely decided on by the senate or president, thanks to actions long ago by lobby factions wishing to utilize public opinion."
"Let it never be said that I have not been true to myself and, in so doing, true to those around me."
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Jace Sarice
17828
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Posted - 2014.10.28 20:53:50 -
[70] - Quote
Liam Antolliere wrote:Using the information you've provided, I will illustrate why I am not confused. You will notice mention of lobbyists. You will also notice mention of their influence in politics. Including "what bills are presented before the Senate." In other words, the Senate does not write the legislation without external influence and approval. Whom do lobbyists appeal to? The common populace. How do lobbyists control which bills are presented before the Senate? By influencing the popular vote of the common populace. Ergo, the common populace is in control over which bills get presented before the Senate to be written into legislation via the lobbyist factions. I can further substantiate this with this information. Particularly the part which states "it is common for major issues to go to a public vote instead of being solely decided on by the senate or president, thanks to actions long ago by lobby factions wishing to utilize public opinion."
That very same piece of information references criticism of the lobbyist power as being undemocratic. You are clearly extremely optimistic regarding the amount of direct public influence on policy if you are using lobbyists as part of that democratic definition. |
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Calairis
Phaeornis Asymmetrics
26
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Posted - 2014.10.28 21:46:34 -
[71] - Quote
I must agree with Pilot Sarice in this instance. The lobbyists are central to the institutionalized abandonment of the Spirit of the Federal Charter in favor of our burgeoning plutocracy. That war profiteers inhabit the Executive while ethnic constituencies scrape in vain for national representation speaks to the brokerage of power in the hands far removed from the populace. By and large, the Senate represent themselves and those who foisted them to office. |
Liam Antolliere
University of Caille Gallente Federation
47
|
Posted - 2014.10.28 22:39:17 -
[72] - Quote
Jace Sarice wrote:That very same piece of information references criticism of the lobbyist power as being undemocratic. You are clearly extremely optimistic regarding the amount of direct public influence on policy if you are using lobbyists as part of that democratic definition.
The criticism you are referencing is external criticism, as you will notice we Gallenteans usually counter the argument. My "optimism" as you put it, is not uncommon. I am also not using them as "part of the democratic definition," I am pointing out that they petition the populace of the Federation, not the senators. This direction of petition is reflective of a democracy, in which the people have influence over the government. A reverse flow of influence would reflect a republic, in which the senators hold the power.
I must apologize to you Monsieur Sarice, clearly my experience within the Federation is at odds with your educated understanding of the system from the outside. I will refrain from discussing the matter further and apologize for troubling you with my ignorance.
Calairis wrote: I must agree with Pilot Sarice in this instance. The lobbyists are central to the institutionalized abandonment of the Spirit of the Federal Charter in favor of our burgeoning plutocracy. That war profiteers inhabit the Executive while ethnic constituencies scrape in vain for national representation speaks to the brokerage of power in the hands far removed from the populace. By and large, the Senate represent themselves and those who foisted them to office.
I never stated the lobbyists were a "positive" part of the Federation, merely that they are part of the system and that the manner in which they work (which is appealing to the population rather than the Senate) is reflective of a democratic process rather than a republic process.
To touch on your other points, the problem isn't so much that the power has been removed from the populace as the populace allows itself to be easily distracted and influenced by the lobbyists' agendas rather than looking around themselves - which comes full circle back to the original purpose of this entire thread.
Until the populace educates itself and looks beyond the agendas of the lobbyists, turning its attention perhaps to the ethnic constituencies vying for representation, then the Federation will continue to drone on as a plutocratic mockery of the democratic system.
"Let it never be said that I have not been true to myself and, in so doing, true to those around me."
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James Syagrius
Viriette Consolidated LLC
919
|
Posted - 2014.10.28 22:50:38 -
[73] - Quote
Bataav wrote:I'm reluctant to distract attention away from the original discussion on what the Federation has become, the paradoxes it struggles with, and how it undermines itself, but I feel it necessary to respond to some comments regarding Intaki: James Syagrius wrote:The history of the current security situation and related historical commentary are fairly easy to find with the minimum application of due diligence. True enough, but its interesting how those on either side of the debate present this history. For those defending the Federation, Intaki's request for any Federation Navy presence to be kept to a minimum within the Intaki system is heralded as the single cause of any security concerns. Who else can possibly be to blame than the Intaki themselves? For those of us challenging the Federation's record, we point out that this argument ignores the fact that New Eden was a very different place then, as were the threats: The Federation was still in its founding days, the black markets of the Intaki Syndicate were not yet in existence, Serpentis had not yet been established, and the Caldari State with which the Federation wages a proxy war through its amoral capsuleer militia did not exist. However, even today the Intaki Assembly reinforces that original request for a minimal Federation Navy presence in the system. It did refuse entry to a Federal Navy fleet in YC112, and instead awarded their security contract to Mordu's Legion. And so today, the Legion works in the Intaki system, and the Assembly is rightly held accountable for what happens within its own borders. What then is the Federation's excuse for what it has allowed to happen, to what had been Intaki colonies, across the rest of Placid? I think that you and I know each otherGÇÖs mind on this issue and understand the nuances of the othersGǪ feelings.
So understand my response is not necessary directed at you or those you represent.
There are many, more interested in assigning blame than seeking solutions. I will defend the Federation, to the best of my meager ability, against wanton accusers whose hands are dirtier than our own. Against those who feign friendship towards Intaki to advance their political, economic and military objectives.
No one would be happier than I, to hear and even participate in, a discussion about the practical merits of an independent and sovereign Intaki.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
-á
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Komodo Askold
No Code of Conduct Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
200
|
Posted - 2014.10.30 22:38:18 -
[74] - Quote
I have to agree. The Federation might be a very close ally of the Republic, and we have much to thank it, but I've always had... some feeling the Gallente society is dangerously close to collapsing upon itself like a dying star. They preach freedom and peaceful coexistence of all cultures no matter how they are, but that's much more difficult to achieve than it might appear at first glance, if not an outright utopia. As OP said, even "freedom" is hard to define. That said, I think it makes Gallente people be very passionate, sometimes too much for their own good. Take this as a person's worry about a friend that has a serious weakpoint in their life, but doesn't seem to realize about it. |
Liam Antolliere
University of Caille Gallente Federation
109
|
Posted - 2014.10.30 22:47:06 -
[75] - Quote
Monsieur Askold,
You have my thanks for your input and your observations.
I do not suspect the Federation is in any danger of collapsing in on itself but I do think it needs to endure a period of self reflection and exploration. Your concern is greatly appreciated and perhaps it is we who could learn much from our friends in the Republic.
~Msr. Antolliere
"Let it never be said that I have not been true to myself and, in so doing, true to those around me."
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Imperial Outlaws.
4046
|
Posted - 2014.10.30 23:04:38 -
[76] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote: There are many, more interested in assigning blame than seeking solutions. I will defend the Federation, to the best of my meager ability, against wanton accusers whose hands are dirtier than our own. Against those who feign friendship towards Intaki to advance their political, economic and military objectives.
No one would be happier than I, to hear and even participate in, a discussion about the practical merits of an independent and sovereign Intaki.
Phew! For a moment I thought you meant ME.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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James Syagrius
Viriette Consolidated LLC
926
|
Posted - 2014.10.31 03:12:53 -
[77] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:James Syagrius wrote: There are many, more interested in assigning blame than seeking solutions. I will defend the Federation, to the best of my meager ability, against wanton accusers whose hands are dirtier than our own. Against those who feign friendship towards Intaki to advance their political, economic and military objectives.
No one would be happier than I, to hear and even participate in, a discussion about the practical merits of an independent and sovereign Intaki.
Phew! For a moment I thought you meant ME. Why Pieter I have never known you to feign... anything.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
-á
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Imperial Outlaws.
4050
|
Posted - 2014.10.31 14:49:33 -
[78] - Quote
Sometimes I feign interest at stockholder meeting social events. Once I feigned sleep to escape a conversation on a shuttle flight.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Tyrel Toov
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
28
|
Posted - 2014.10.31 23:48:03 -
[79] - Quote
Antolliere for prez? |
Bataav
Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative
238
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 17:01:48 -
[80] - Quote
As this particular discussion seems to have run its course, I'm less concerned about diverting attention away from the Federation as a whole to matters relating to Intaki.
And so...
James Syagrius wrote:There are many, more interested in assigning blame than seeking solutions. I will defend the Federation, to the best of my meager ability, against wanton accusers whose hands are dirtier than our own. Against those who feign friendship towards Intaki to advance their political, economic and military objectives.
No one would be happier than I, to hear and even participate in, a discussion about the practical merits of an independent and sovereign Intaki. Civil liberties within the Federation appear to be on people's minds at the moment, so let's touch on that.
At the very core of the Federation is the principle of the democracy. The right of the people to elect those who lead them, and to be able to remove them and hold them accountable should they fail.
I'll not focus here on the Senate's serious undermining of this principle, through their denial of voting rights to their citizens in Placid and elsewhere, but this is something that really does need to be addressed. Instead I'll talk briefly about what could be a return to real democracy in an independent Intaki.
While our independence movement is not one of ethnic nationalism, we do acknowledge the demographics that makes up the population of Intaki and surrounding colonies. It is to be expected that a very large percentage of people here are of Intaki heritage.
If we consider the well documented voting blocks that appear to follow ethnic heritage to some degree, we can expect to see a particular style of governance in an independent Intaki - that of the so called Dove bloc.
Independence would see decisions made locally, in accordance with local political understandings, and by those living and working in Intaki, instead of light years away in Villore. Local concerns would be higher up the list of priorities, along with the solutions implemented.
Independence, offers a better chance that the people of Intaki will get the governance they actually vote for. Not just some of the time, but all of the time.
Is this not a good representation of what the Federation is supposed to stand for? Responsibility and accountability to and of the people? Would the Federation not look to their new neighbour and be proud to see what had been achieved?
Or is power more important to Villore than principle?
Bataav en Gravonere
IPI & ILF Diplomat
Intaki Endures!
|
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Liam Antolliere
University of Caille Gallente Federation
143
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 17:44:19 -
[81] - Quote
Bataav wrote:
Independence, offers a better chance that the people of Intaki will get the governance they actually vote for. Not just some of the time, but all of the time.
Is this not a good representation of what the Federation is supposed to stand for? Responsibility and accountability to and of the people? Would the Federation not look to their new neighbour and be proud to see what had been achieved?
Or is power more important to Villore than principle?
While you have touched on many important points Monsieur Bataav, it is this particular part that I wished to address.
The Federation should be proud of what an independent Intaki could represent in terms of democracy and it should be proud that the Intaki people would seek to adapt democracy as their form of governance because ultimately the spread of democracy is the spread of an ideal; the ideal that a group of people are entitled rights and values that enable them to elect their own governance and govern themselves in their own best interests.
As to whether or not the Federation would be proud in its current form? I cannot say. What I can say is there are those of us who would seek to see the integrity of the Federation upheld and we are not few in number.
"Let it never be said that I have not been true to myself and, in so doing, true to those around me."
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Dessau
Phaeornis Asymmetrics
217
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 18:06:52 -
[82] - Quote
Bataav wrote:Is this not a good representation of what the Federation is supposed to stand for? Responsibility and accountability to and of the people? Would the Federation not look to their new neighbour and be proud to see what had been achieved?
Or is power more important to Villore than principle? In my view, you have touched on the issue precisely. One need only view the Constitution with regard to governance during the Sixth Union to recognize that we are in the twilight of 'principle'. |
Caviar Liberta
Moira. Villore Accords
739
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 21:01:13 -
[83] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Merdaneth wrote: Obeying priests: bad. Obeying people with certain tribal tattoos: good Enslaving terrorists: bad. Imprisoning terrorists: good Whipping as punishment: bad. Firing squad as punishment: good
And for this, I would like to add, that enslaved terrorists probably have way greater options, abilities and priveleges than imprisoned terrorists. As for punishment, I again would like to remind, that gallenteans torture Caldari (except Ishukone) POWs with severe physical mutilations, which are way worse than whipping, and just for these POWs were doing their duty, defending their homeland from gallentean occupants. One more word about whipping, back in the academy days I was whipped a lot, and, I assure you, I would choose it any day instead of facing a firing squad.
I must commend you Ms Kim for a well spoken response. I knew you could keep yourself from going into your typical diatribe. |
Cuci Cairi
879
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 21:50:18 -
[84] - Quote
Yes, it has. There are many of us that would consider coming home if we felt there was a home to return to. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1398
|
Posted - 2014.11.06 18:30:04 -
[85] - Quote
Caviar Liberta wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Merdaneth wrote: Obeying priests: bad. Obeying people with certain tribal tattoos: good Enslaving terrorists: bad. Imprisoning terrorists: good Whipping as punishment: bad. Firing squad as punishment: good
And for this, I would like to add, that enslaved terrorists probably have way greater options, abilities and priveleges than imprisoned terrorists. As for punishment, I again would like to remind, that gallenteans torture Caldari (except Ishukone) POWs with severe physical mutilations, which are way worse than whipping, and just for these POWs were doing their duty, defending their homeland from gallentean occupants. One more word about whipping, back in the academy days I was whipped a lot, and, I assure you, I would choose it any day instead of facing a firing squad. I must commend you Ms Kim for a well spoken response. I knew you could keep yourself from going into your typical diatribe. Please don't do that. I am almost trying to reach my sidegun to blow my brains out because a frog has agreed with me. |
Caellach Marellus
The Scope Gallente Federation
1530
|
Posted - 2014.11.06 18:31:42 -
[86] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Caviar Liberta wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Merdaneth wrote: Obeying priests: bad. Obeying people with certain tribal tattoos: good Enslaving terrorists: bad. Imprisoning terrorists: good Whipping as punishment: bad. Firing squad as punishment: good
And for this, I would like to add, that enslaved terrorists probably have way greater options, abilities and priveleges than imprisoned terrorists. As for punishment, I again would like to remind, that gallenteans torture Caldari (except Ishukone) POWs with severe physical mutilations, which are way worse than whipping, and just for these POWs were doing their duty, defending their homeland from gallentean occupants. One more word about whipping, back in the academy days I was whipped a lot, and, I assure you, I would choose it any day instead of facing a firing squad. I must commend you Ms Kim for a well spoken response. I knew you could keep yourself from going into your typical diatribe. Please don't do that. I am almost trying to reach my sidegun to blow my brains out because a frog has agreed with me.
If you were to find yourself agreeing with a Gallentian that would be a suitable course of action, I agree.
When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1398
|
Posted - 2014.11.06 18:39:42 -
[87] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:Diana Kim wrote: Please don't do that. I am almost trying to reach my sidegun to blow my brains out because a frog has agreed with me.
If you were to find yourself agreeing with a Gallentian that would be a suitable course of action, I agree. STOP. THAT. |
Claudia Osyn
The Scope Gallente Federation
977
|
Posted - 2014.11.06 21:06:21 -
[88] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Diana Kim wrote: Please don't do that. I am almost trying to reach my sidegun to blow my brains out because a frog has agreed with me.
If you were to find yourself agreeing with a Gallentian that would be a suitable course of action, I agree. STOP. THAT. I concur, you should stop that Mr. Marellus.
The lack of money is the root of all evil.
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Liam Antolliere
University of Caille Gallente Federation
145
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Posted - 2014.11.06 23:12:18 -
[89] - Quote
Claudia Osyn wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Diana Kim wrote: Please don't do that. I am almost trying to reach my sidegun to blow my brains out because a frog has agreed with me.
If you were to find yourself agreeing with a Gallentian that would be a suitable course of action, I agree. STOP. THAT. I concur, you should stop that Mr. Marellus.
Definitely agree. It is immoral of us to tempt Mademoiselle Kim in such a way.
"Let it never be said that I have not been true to myself and, in so doing, true to those around me."
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Caellach Marellus
The Scope Gallente Federation
1531
|
Posted - 2014.11.06 23:30:52 -
[90] - Quote
Liam Antolliere wrote:Claudia Osyn wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Diana Kim wrote: Please don't do that. I am almost trying to reach my sidegun to blow my brains out because a frog has agreed with me.
If you were to find yourself agreeing with a Gallentian that would be a suitable course of action, I agree. STOP. THAT. I concur, you should stop that Mr. Marellus. Definitely agree. It is immoral of us to tempt Mademoiselle Kim in such a way.
So we're all in agreement with Captain Kim? Noted.
When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
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