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Guurzak
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.08.11 16:39:00 -
[1]
shield: 75 em, 60 ex, 40 ki, 60 th armor: 92.5 em, 10 ex, 25 ki, 67.5 th
5 low, 3 med
So, this ship gets an inherent 75% to EMP and 50% to Thermal, on both shield and armor. This is great if you're shield tanking with your 3 medium slots. It's terrible if you are armor tanking, and it's obvious that this ship needs to armor tank with its slot layout.
No other race has 2 holes in its HAC armor resists. The Amarr have 2 holes in their shield resists but that's fine because they don't shield tank. The Muninn is the only HAC that's forced to fill 2 resist holes in its only viable tanking style.
Bonuses for this ship should be moved from 75EMP+50Therm to 75Therm+50Kin. This would result in the following resist pattern:
shield: 0 em, 60 ex, 70 ki, 80 th armor: 70 em, 10 ex, 62.5 ki, 83.75 th
This would be entirely in line with the resist patterns of the other races and make the ship much more flyable.
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Rexthor Hammerfists
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.11 16:43:00 -
[2]
caldari hacs are the only ones with "holes", 40% as the lowest is nothin to complain about. - Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.
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Guurzak
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.08.11 16:45:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists caldari hacs are the only ones with "holes", 40% as the lowest is nothin to complain about.
I guess you didn't notice the Muninn's 10% explosive resist and 25% kinetic resist which are the whole point of my post?
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Jet Collins
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Posted - 2006.08.11 16:49:00 -
[4]
They are not holes t2 ships are war ships the race minmatar are at war with are Amarr they do not do kin and Exp damage
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Savion Mercarte
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Posted - 2006.08.11 16:57:00 -
[5]
It has 5 turrets with an RoF and damage bonus, and then a tracking bonus. Then, you can have 2 nos or 2 launchers. It also has 25m3 of drone space, moderate speed and low mass. What else do you want? It is an offensive ship, you can't have everything.
If it had more spread out resists it would be too good of a ship.
PvP: Kill Amarr, or fit lots of active hardeners. PvE: Kill Sansha or Blood Raiders.
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.08.11 17:08:00 -
[6]
Minmatar war targets for the last four years are Guristas (kinetic) and Angels (explosive). --*=*=*--
Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment. |
Valea Silpha
Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact
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Posted - 2006.08.11 17:10:00 -
[7]
I've always thought that the munin was pretty poor. The problem the ship is clearly intended to armor tank, but it has two huge resist holes to fill and only as many lows as its t1 counterpart to fill them with.
Then, if it were supposed to use artillery, you would be able to tank and do it, or the bonuses would be better suited to staying out of range rather than damage.
Its a combination of not much improved tankability, and not much improved damage. Aside from PvE against ammar rats, its not good enough to compete.
<Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing <Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head |
Commander Thrawn
Fluffy rabbit killer's inc
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Posted - 2006.08.11 17:10:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Guurzak Edited by: Guurzak on 11/08/2006 16:48:17 shield: 75 em, 60 ex, 40 ki, 60 th armor: 92.5 em, 10 ex, 25 ki, 67.5 th
5 low, 3 med
So, this ship gets an inherent 75% to EMP and 50% to Thermal, on both shield and armor. This is great if you're shield tanking with your 3 medium slots. It's terrible if you are armor tanking, and it's obvious that this ship needs to armor tank with its slot layout.
No other race has 2 holes in its HAC armor resists. The Amarr have 2 holes in their shield resists but that's fine because they don't shield tank. The Muninn is the only HAC that's forced to fill 2 resist holes in its only viable tanking style.
Bonuses for this ship should be moved from 75EMP+50Therm to 75Therm+50Kin. This would result in the following resist pattern:
shield: 0 em, 60 ex, 70 ki, 80 th armor: 70 em, 10 ex, 62.5 ki, 83.75 th
This would be entirely in line with the resist patterns of the other races and make the ship much more flyable.
Edit to add: The Wolf has the same problem and should receive the same fix.
im all for this, Easier for my zealot to kill you this way :)
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Commander Thrawn
Fluffy rabbit killer's inc
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Posted - 2006.08.11 17:12:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Commander Thrawn on 11/08/2006 17:13:05
Originally by: Tachy Minmatar war targets for the last four years are Guristas (kinetic) and Angels (explosive).
those are rats, minies fight Amarr, but ya be my guess. lower the EM and thermal resistance i'll be more then happy
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Jet Collins
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Posted - 2006.08.11 17:26:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Commander Thrawn Edited by: Commander Thrawn on 11/08/2006 17:13:05
Originally by: Tachy Minmatar war targets for the last four years are Guristas (kinetic) and Angels (explosive).
those are rats, minies fight Amarr, but ya be my guess. lower the EM and thermal resistance i'll be more then happy
Thanks for proving my point
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Garmon
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Posted - 2006.08.11 17:32:00 -
[11]
Those holes might be the biggest reason why people prefer the vaga over the muninn, since the muninn is a tanking ship, or should be one atleast
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.08.11 17:34:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Commander Thrawn Edited by: Commander Thrawn on 11/08/2006 17:13:05
Originally by: Tachy Minmatar war targets for the last four years are Guristas (kinetic) and Angels (explosive).
those are rats, minies fight Amarr, but ya be my guess. lower the EM and thermal resistance i'll be more then happy
You know, I am pretty happy with them resists as they are kinda regularly. And no, the Republic and the Empire aren't at war (yet). Actually, there's no Republic - or did you see any representative past a military guy handing out a medal? --*=*=*--
Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment. |
Emperor D'Hoffryn
Low Grade Ore
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Posted - 2006.08.11 17:45:00 -
[13]
when flying the 10/10 sansha complex, you send in the muninn first. Tanks the whole complex solo, since sanshas for amarr damage types, and minmitar is anti amarr. but yea, when fighting anyone else, can be a problem (say other minnie ships doing exp damage)
Amarr is just as borked with the damage types it does, although our tech2 resists are spread nicely to deal with the any damage type doing minnies.
Originally by: Tuxford Yes we don't play on our main accounts simply because you would lose all respect for us
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.11 17:47:00 -
[14]
You've got an argument if you say the Muninn should have more mid slots and less low slots because it's such an obvious shield tank.
You haven't got an argument if you want racial resists to change. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death |
Guurzak
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.08.11 17:47:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Valea Silpha I've always thought that the munin was pretty poor... Its a combination of not much improved tankability, and not much improved damage. Aside from PvE against ammar rats, its not good enough to compete.
That's pretty much my point. With its unique gaping resistance holes, there's very little reason to fit one of these instead of the much cheaper Rupture, unless you want to snipe with its improved optimal.
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.08.11 18:08:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/08/2006 18:09:50
Originally by: Ithildin You've got an argument if you say the Muninn should have more mid slots and less low slots because it's such an obvious shield tank.
You haven't got an argument if you want racial resists to change.
Ugh. Reducing the lowslots will cripple the ship...you're basically removing the damage mods it needs on a 1:1 basis.
I've worked WONDERS with this beast of a ship, including wrecks for over 1250 damage from a 650mm gun (5s RoF, 12 damage mod...). Consistantly on the top of a lot of killmails while I was in BDSM. Sure, I didn't have much going for me... speed, laser resistance and firepower. But in a group, that's a lethal combination.
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Imhotep Khem
Vortex.
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Posted - 2006.08.11 18:24:00 -
[17]
These are definitely holes. Minmatar enemy being Amarr we get EM and TH boost. This plugs the holds in our shields but does nothing for the holes in our armor. So our shield tanking HAC rocks while our armor tanking HAC does not.
I assumed every race sufered from this.
For instance, Amarr having Minmatar as their enemy get bosted EX and KIN. This plugs two holes in their armor but does nothing for their shields. So Amarr's armor tanking HAC should rock, while their shield tanking HAC should suck.
Please tell me they do not have two armor tanking HACs!?! ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle |
Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.11 18:36:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 11/08/2006 18:09:50
Originally by: Ithildin You've got an argument if you say the Muninn should have more mid slots and less low slots because it's such an obvious shield tank.
You haven't got an argument if you want racial resists to change.
Ugh. Reducing the lowslots will cripple the ship...you're basically removing the damage mods it needs on a 1:1 basis.
I've worked WONDERS with this beast of a ship, including wrecks for over 1250 damage from a 650mm gun (5s RoF, 12 damage mod...). Consistantly on the top of a lot of killmails while I was in BDSM. Sure, I didn't have much going for me... speed, laser resistance and firepower. But in a group, that's a lethal combination.
Don't quote me as if it's my argument, all I'm saying is that racial resists shouldn't be changed just because one ship or other might need it. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death |
Guurzak
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.08.11 18:48:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Imhotep Khem I assumed every race sufered from this... For instance, Amarr... Please tell me they do not have two armor tanking HACs!?!
Amarr have 2 armor tanking HACs with no deep holes (one low resist at 35%). Caldari have 2 shield HACs with one hole. Gallente have 2 armor HACs with one hole.
Minmatar are the only race with differential tanking per ship and also the only race with a HAC which is clearly slotted for a type of tanking that gives it 2 holes.
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Guurzak
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.08.11 18:54:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Ithildin all I'm saying is that racial resists shouldn't be changed just because one ship or other might need it.
When *should* racial resists be changed? Where do you think racial resists come from, anyway? They're not handed down on stone tablets from a burning bush; they're a tool like any other, subject to revision as needed for game balance.
From the unpopularity of the Muninn relative to other HACs, it's clear that there's a game balance issue to be addressed. The numbers confirm that the ship suffers from a unique resistance flaw due to poorly conceived bonus selection. The Minmatar fleet was explicitly and deliberately designed to support some ships with shield tanking and some with armor, but when the T2 resist bonuses were being planned that previous design decision was simply not taken into account. So yes, racial resists should be changed when it's obvious that they're just plain wrong.
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Chewan Mesa
Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2006.08.11 19:06:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Guurzak
Originally by: Ithildin all I'm saying is that racial resists shouldn't be changed just because one ship or other might need it.
When *should* racial resists be changed? Where do you think racial resists come from, anyway? They're not handed down on stone tablets from a burning bush; they're a tool like any other, subject to revision as needed for game balance.
From the unpopularity of the Muninn relative to other HACs, it's clear that there's a game balance issue to be addressed. The numbers confirm that the ship suffers from a unique resistance flaw due to poorly conceived bonus selection. The Minmatar fleet was explicitly and deliberately designed to support some ships with shield tanking and some with armor, but when the T2 resist bonuses were being planned that previous design decision was simply not taken into account. So yes, racial resists should be changed when it's obvious that they're just plain wrong.
Ehrm nope, they are no tool that gets changed how someone feels like it.
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.11 19:37:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Guurzak
Originally by: Ithildin all I'm saying is that racial resists shouldn't be changed just because one ship or other might need it.
When *should* racial resists be changed? Where do you think racial resists come from, anyway? They're not handed down on stone tablets from a burning bush; they're a tool like any other, subject to revision as needed for game balance.
Minmatar racial resists gets changed when Amarrian racial damage gets changed. Simple enough. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death |
Dexter Rast
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2006.08.11 21:22:00 -
[23]
who gives a sh1t about armor resists, the muninn is not an armor tank ship, its a gank ship that should be used with a single sheild booster, the low slots are not for tanking, they are for damage mods and pdu`s, tracking enhancers etc.. if you want to armor tank a ship go use a rupture, the muninn is a diferent beast altogether --------------------------------------------- Please resize your forum signature graphic to be smaller than 24,000 bytes in filesize - Jacques |
Epsilon 1
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Posted - 2006.08.11 21:23:00 -
[24]
92% EM is a joke tbh.
Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
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Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2006.08.11 21:32:00 -
[25]
Remove 1 low, give it enoug PG to fit it's guns without an rcu and give it 2 more mids then maybe it will be worth flying over a vaga. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Kulmid
Dummies
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Posted - 2006.08.11 22:41:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Kulmid on 11/08/2006 22:41:29 give my Deimos some more Powergrid and then we will talk about your resists
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Kai Lae
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.08.11 22:44:00 -
[27]
Muninn's problem is that in order to fit the weapons it seems oriented around, artillery, you need multiple grid mods. If it had enough grid to fit even 650's and not use a grid mod, it wouldn't be too bad, as you could just use 1 explosive hardener and 1 kinetic hardener w/ a MAR II. The other 2 could then be gyros. However, now as it stands you need 1-2 grid mods minimum and therefore the resistance holes become a problem because of the lack of remaining slots.
In short the grid is the problem not the layout of the resists. See deimos for a similar ship.
Raptor and Ares Fix |
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