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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Orion Nex
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.08.11 06:37:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm not going to pretend to know everything about Eve, not even remotely. I love the sandbox, I love the ability to do so many different things.
With that out of the way, what is the point of the high sec war dec? I look at CODE with the ganking and I get that, to me this is a big part of what Eve is about. But the high sec war dec HURTS Eve. I'd guess the VAST majority of players it affects are those that have just taken the leap to get involved socially in a corp for mining and high sec PVE stuff.
They are not about wars either as most corps in high sec are not even remotely able to combat the high sec war dec corps and the tactics they've honed around the mechanics (mechanics most of the players on the dying end don't understand).
I've got 4 characters and I've got them doing different things in Eve. But my Industrial character has only recently joined a corp after 2 years in Eve. You can look at the dozens of war decs in the alliance and corp history, in total there is only minimal losses. In no way would someone look at the losses and think it would be a profitable or worthwhile venture. I've witnessed the corp and alliance activity fall by at least 80%.
What is the point? It's not war decing to take over POCOs or because they are undercutting operations in your system. Might as well give the ability to war dec individual players in noob sytems while we are at it. Just have new players undock in tutorial missions and get smart bombed instantly. That would be fun right? |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2068
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 06:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
yes ... no fun for u ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8707
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 06:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
I find it hilarious that you're posting this from an NPC corp alt.
Oh, and by the way, you don't "love the sandbox", as you initially claimed. No one who loves the sandbox advocates taking away player freedom.
So go sling that bullshit somewhere else. Reported for redundant thread, since this is the fifth wardec whine this past few days. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Orion Nex
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.08.11 06:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
Lol, this isn't QQ about losing things. This is about seeing something that IS running players off that isn't leading to content at all.
The vast majority aren't leading to ANY kills or losses. The corps just disband and people that don't quit Eve just go about it solo.
I'm not even saying eliminate high sec war decs. I'm saying there is nothing tactical about it. Why would you war dec a corp that hasn't lost ANYTHING in the last 10 war decs? There is nothing to gain. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8708
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 06:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
Orion Nex wrote:This is about seeing something that IS running players off that isn't leading to content at all.
Yeah, citation needed on that one. I would love to see your source as to how you found out that it's wardecs that run off people.
(nevermind that, even if true, it's a good thing. Anyone who quits from a wardec doesn't belong here in the first place)
Quote: The vast majority aren't leading to ANY kills or losses. The corps just disband and people that don't quit Eve just go about it solo.
Yeah, we should make dec dodging an actionable exploit.
Quote: I'm not even saying eliminate high sec war decs. I'm saying there is nothing tactical about it. Why would you war dec a corp that hasn't lost ANYTHING in the last 10 war decs? There is nothing to gain.
Because the game is about shooting spaceships. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Orion Nex
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 06:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Orion Nex wrote:This is about seeing something that IS running players off that isn't leading to content at all. Yeah, citation needed on that one. I would love to see your source as to how you found out that it's wardecs that run off people. (nevermind that, even if true, it's a good thing. Anyone who quits from a wardec doesn't belong here in the first place) Quote: The vast majority aren't leading to ANY kills or losses. The corps just disband and people that don't quit Eve just go about it solo.
Yeah, we should make dec dodging an actionable exploit. Quote: I'm not even saying eliminate high sec war decs. I'm saying there is nothing tactical about it. Why would you war dec a corp that hasn't lost ANYTHING in the last 10 war decs? There is nothing to gain.
Because the game is about shooting spaceships.
What part of my post said I didn't think it was about shooting spaceships? |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8709
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 07:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
Orion Nex wrote: What part of my post said I didn't think it was about shooting spaceships?
I'd like that citation on your spurious claim, first.
And you asked why you would wardec someone. I answered you. Because the game is about shooting people. That's why people wardec other people. To shoot them. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Arkady Romanov
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
474
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 07:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
Cannibal Kane must have been busy over the past week. A lot of these threads cropping up. |
Orion Nex
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.08.11 07:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Orion Nex wrote: What part of my post said I didn't think it was about shooting spaceships?
I'd like that citation on your spurious claim, first. And you asked why you would wardec someone. I answered you. Because the game is about shooting people. That's why people wardec other people. To shoot them.
I said why war dec a corp that hasn't lost anything in war decs in the last 10 war decs? There is no shooting happening. Only people not logging in.
And I can't provide a citation. I just witness it firsthand. I have a blockade runner and most of my operations are unaffected. This isn't me hopping on after getting killed to QQ. It's about seeing a situation that is troubling and looking to my peers to discuss it.
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Prince Kobol
2019
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Posted - 2014.08.11 07:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
I agree that War Dec Mechanics could do with another look but not in the sense your talking about.
It is far too easy for players just to leave corp and docking mechanics also ruin HS wars.
Easy way to kill docking games is for every HS station to have a random kick out distance, say between 20km and 30km but keeping the docking radius to 1km.
As for players just leaving corp.. I suppose the best thing to do is that even if you leave corp your character will still be a target for the duration of the war dec. |
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Pheusia
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
177
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 07:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
Orion Nex wrote:Lol, this isn't QQ about losing things. This is about seeing something that IS running players off that isn't leading to content at all.
The vast majority aren't leading to ANY kills or losses. The corps just disband and people that don't quit Eve just go about it solo.
I'm not even saying eliminate high sec war decs. I'm saying there is nothing tactical about it. Why would you war dec a corp that hasn't lost ANYTHING in the last 10 war decs? There is nothing to gain.
Because your corp has a tower on a moon that I want to use. I know full well that if I wardec you, you'll just take it down and won't get to blow anything up, but then I can claim "your" moon for my own corp. You will have to use some other, less desirable moon elsewhere.
This motivation has only increased (by design) with the Crius industry changes.
If you're going to say that wars for territorial aggression shouldn't be in EVE, then I'm not even sure what you think wars might be in the game for.
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Orion Nex
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 07:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
Pheusia wrote:Orion Nex wrote:Lol, this isn't QQ about losing things. This is about seeing something that IS running players off that isn't leading to content at all.
The vast majority aren't leading to ANY kills or losses. The corps just disband and people that don't quit Eve just go about it solo.
I'm not even saying eliminate high sec war decs. I'm saying there is nothing tactical about it. Why would you war dec a corp that hasn't lost ANYTHING in the last 10 war decs? There is nothing to gain. Because your corp has a tower on a moon that I want to use. I know full well that if I wardec you, you'll just take it down and won't get to blow anything up, but then I can claim "your" moon for my own corp. You will have to use some other, less desirable moon elsewhere. This motivation has only increased (by design) with the Crius industry changes. If you're going to say that wars for territorial aggression shouldn't be in EVE, then I'm not even sure what you think wars might be in the game for.
I'm sorry, I'm not following you. I said that I didn't like the current mechanics because they have NO tactical reasoning. They aren't about anything other than creating tears. It's not currently about knocking someone's operations out of whack or wanting that POCO.
It's funny because you listen to some of the recent Declarations of War podcasts and hear them discussing the mechanics they use and the fact the most people have no idea or ability to counter. Noob mining corps with located agents and neutral logi??? |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8709
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 07:19:00 -
[13] - Quote
Orion Nex wrote: And I can't provide a citation.
Then you ought not use capslock when you say things like "seeing something that IS running players off". Because you shouldn't have any conviction in that statement, given that you just made it up.
Quote: It's about seeing a situation that is troubling and looking to my peers to discuss it.
Yeah, nope. I have long since tired of suggestions to ruin emergent gameplay and handcuff player freedom couched behind "concern".
Especially when, if anything, wars desperately need buffed. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Orion Nex
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 07:25:00 -
[14] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:I agree that War Dec Mechanics could do with another look but not in the sense your talking about.
It is far too easy for players just to leave corp and docking mechanics also ruin HS wars.
Easy way to kill docking games is for every HS station to have a random kick out distance, say between 20km and 30km but keeping the docking radius to 1km.
As for players just leaving corp.. I suppose the best thing to do is that even if you leave corp your character will still be a target for the duration of the war dec.
I actually agree with you if there was something done to prevent war dec spamming just for the lulz.
I think the industry changes will kick some of the vet carebears out of their comfort zone thus making high sec an area that noobs get their feet wet. I don't know, maybe I'm looking at it wrong. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8709
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 07:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
Orion Nex wrote: I actually agree with you if there was something done to prevent war dec spamming just for the lulz.
Remember when you claimed you love the sandbox? This is the part where you just tripped up and showed us that you don't.
"for the lulz" or "because I can" is always, 100% of the time an acceptable reason to do anything in a sandbox game. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Prince Kobol
2019
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 07:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
Pheusia wrote:Orion Nex wrote:Lol, this isn't QQ about losing things. This is about seeing something that IS running players off that isn't leading to content at all.
The vast majority aren't leading to ANY kills or losses. The corps just disband and people that don't quit Eve just go about it solo.
I'm not even saying eliminate high sec war decs. I'm saying there is nothing tactical about it. Why would you war dec a corp that hasn't lost ANYTHING in the last 10 war decs? There is nothing to gain. Because your corp has a tower on a moon that I want to use. I know full well that if I wardec you, you'll just take it down and won't get to blow anything up, but then I can claim "your" moon for my own corp. You will have to use some other, less desirable moon elsewhere. This motivation has only increased (by design) with the Crius industry changes. If you're going to say that wars for territorial aggression shouldn't be in EVE, then I'm not even sure what you think wars might be in the game for.
Not really.
If anything CCP has made this even easy to circumvent now you do not need standings to anchor pos's.
Each corp has a 24 hours before the war kicks in. All they have to do is tear down there pos and pop a another up using a holding corp. Unless you are going to camp that spot for a full 24 hours before the war then your going to have to war dec that corp.
Of course there is nothing to stop them doing it again and again and again.
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Orion Nex
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 07:37:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Orion Nex wrote: And I can't provide a citation.
Then you ought not use capslock when you say things like "seeing something that IS running players off". Because you shouldn't have any conviction in that statement, given that you just made it up. Quote: It's about seeing a situation that is troubling and looking to my peers to discuss it.
Yeah, nope. I have long since tired of suggestions to ruin emergent gameplay and handcuff player freedom couched behind "concern". Especially when, if anything, wars desperately need buffed.
Well I didn't make it up. I witness it.
You don't read well do you? It feels like I'm answering riddles from some troll guarding a bridge that doesn't hear well. Do I need to get crayons out?
You aren't commenting about where the emergent gameplay is in decking corps that don't fight? If Orion's Mining Corp (I'd guess most corps getting dec'd are mining corps) has been dec'd 10x but hasn't lost ANY ships where is the emergent gameplay?
If Orion's Mining Corp had 50 active players after war dec 3, 25 players after war dec 7, and 1 after war dec 10 where is the good in that? There was zero content in there. They didn't have camp anymore stations or gates waiting for noobs as they had 27 other active decs going.
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Glathull
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
575
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 07:37:00 -
[18] - Quote
Just fyi, tears--in general--are a totally legit in-game goal. Turrents |
Pheusia
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
178
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 07:38:00 -
[19] - Quote
Orion Nex wrote:Pheusia wrote:Orion Nex wrote:Lol, this isn't QQ about losing things. This is about seeing something that IS running players off that isn't leading to content at all.
The vast majority aren't leading to ANY kills or losses. The corps just disband and people that don't quit Eve just go about it solo.
I'm not even saying eliminate high sec war decs. I'm saying there is nothing tactical about it. Why would you war dec a corp that hasn't lost ANYTHING in the last 10 war decs? There is nothing to gain. Because your corp has a tower on a moon that I want to use. I know full well that if I wardec you, you'll just take it down and won't get to blow anything up, but then I can claim "your" moon for my own corp. You will have to use some other, less desirable moon elsewhere. This motivation has only increased (by design) with the Crius industry changes. If you're going to say that wars for territorial aggression shouldn't be in EVE, then I'm not even sure what you think wars might be in the game for. I'm sorry, I'm not following you. I said that I didn't like the current mechanics because they have NO tactical reasoning. They aren't about anything other than creating tears. It's not currently about knocking someone's operations out of whack or wanting that POCO. It's funny because you listen to some of the recent Declarations of War podcasts and hear them discussing the mechanics they use and the fact the most people have no idea or ability to counter. Noob mining corps with located agents and neutral logi???
You asked for a reason to dec a corp that hasn't had any losses in 10 years; I supplied you with an example
Again, I'm not sure what you think wars are. Still less what they should be.
I get the feeling that they should be some kind of group scale tournament, with leagues and weight classes. Wars happen when Group A identifies that Group B is a target that can be attacked with minimal risk and possible rewards, or that Group B is a future threat best dealt with now.
In EVE, unlike in RL, Group B gets 24 hours notice in which they can safe up all their assets and completely duck out of any threat at the cost of some mild administrative inconvenience for a week. That makes EVE wars as consensual as they could possibly be and still called "wars".
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Orion Nex
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 07:44:00 -
[20] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Orion Nex wrote: I actually agree with you if there was something done to prevent war dec spamming just for the lulz.
Remember when you claimed you love the sandbox? This is the part where you just tripped up and showed us that you don't. "for the lulz" or "because I can" is always, 100% of the time an acceptable reason to do anything in a sandbox game.
Then why not be able to sit in tutorial missions and kill noobs?
This isn't a 100% open sandbox, I shouldn't even have to mark that statement. |
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8709
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 07:46:00 -
[21] - Quote
Orion Nex wrote: Then why not be able to sit in tutorial missions and kill noobs?
Because CCP says so, duh.
Quote: This isn't a 100% open sandbox, I shouldn't even have to mark that statement.
Nothing is, or people wouldn't be banned for exploits.
But neither of those sentences refute my point, that you don't actually love the sandbox as you claim. To me, it rather seems as though you hate it, what with all your cries about how something shouldn't be allowed unless it's measurable "content". Which, by the way, is a really silly thing to say when you're trying to defend dec dodging. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Orion Nex
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 07:50:00 -
[22] - Quote
Glathull wrote:Just fyi, tears--in general--are a totally legit in-game goal.
I agree, but in my opinion the stuff that CODE does provides this in more of the way I perceive Eve.
The stuff high sec war dec corps do seems to dance around the idea of high sec and take advantage of the "safety" new players feel high sec provides.
Again, these guys are NOT doing this for the fights . These wars have NOTHING to do with PvP. I hope we can at least drop this notion from the conversation. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8709
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 07:55:00 -
[23] - Quote
Orion Nex wrote: Again, these guys are NOT doing this for the fights . These wars have NOTHING to do with PvP. I hope we can at least drop this notion from the conversation.
No, because both of those statements are wrong.
Especially since pretty much the entire game is PvP in some form or another, thanks to how the market works. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Orion Nex
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 07:55:00 -
[24] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Orion Nex wrote: Then why not be able to sit in tutorial missions and kill noobs?
Because CCP says so, duh. Quote: This isn't a 100% open sandbox, I shouldn't even have to mark that statement.
Nothing is, or people wouldn't be banned for exploits. But neither of those sentences refute my point, that you don't actually love the sandbox as you claim. To me, it rather seems as though you hate it, what with all your cries about how something shouldn't be allowed unless it's measurable "content". Which, by the way, is a really silly thing to say when you're trying to defend dec dodging.
What is the alternative for a 1 mil SP new player that is set up for mining, but to dodge the war dec? Let's try to get specific here instead of speaking to me like I'm your three year old child. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8709
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 08:00:00 -
[25] - Quote
Orion Nex wrote: What is the alternative for a 1 mil SP new player that is set up for mining, but to dodge the war dec?
Well, you do realize that even new players have gunnery skills, yes? And that, and I know this might come as a shock, fights are fun even if you lose?
Or hell, just don't mine, that's a good start right there. I can't think of a better way to cripple new player retention than by making people mine as their first impression of EVE.
Quote: Let's try to get specific here instead of speaking to me like I'm your three year old child.
I find this statement hilarious coming from someone who attempted to belittle me by asking if you needed to "get crayons out". My literal three year old has enough of a grasp of the concept of irony to laugh at this. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Orion Nex
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 08:02:00 -
[26] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Orion Nex wrote: Again, these guys are NOT doing this for the fights . These wars have NOTHING to do with PvP. I hope we can at least drop this notion from the conversation.
No, because both of those statements are wrong. Especially since pretty much the entire game is PvP in some form or another, thanks to how the market works.
So, you are saying that you are delusional?
I just told you that in 10 war decs ZERO ships were killed. Do you have an understanding of what zero means?
You honestly believe these high sec war dec corps want fights? My main is in a low sec PvP alliance and one of the big named Merc corps dec'd us. We fleeced up to go kick their teeth in and they run and hide. There is nothing about PvP in the sense your smart ass knows I'm talking about.
But I'm not telling you anything you don't know. |
Orion Nex
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 08:07:00 -
[27] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Orion Nex wrote: What is the alternative for a 1 mil SP new player that is set up for mining, but to dodge the war dec?
Well, you do realize that even new players have gunnery skills, yes? And that, and I know this might come as a shock, fights are fun even if you lose? Or hell, just don't mine, that's a good start right there. I can't think of a better way to cripple new player retention than by making people mine as their first impression of EVE. Quote: Let's try to get specific here instead of speaking to me like I'm your three year old child.
I find this statement hilarious coming from someone who attempted to belittle me by asking if you needed to "get crayons out". My literal three year old has enough of a grasp of the concept of irony to laugh at this.
You are the one who steered the conversation this way.
Now, go make me a sandwich. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8710
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 08:11:00 -
[28] - Quote
Orion Nex wrote: You honestly believe these high sec war dec corps want fights?
Yep. I'm a part of all of that, as well as a suicide ganker.
Quote: My main is in a low sec PvP alliance
Well, then this next part should be interesting.
Post with your main. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
4157
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 08:14:00 -
[29] - Quote
Orion Nex wrote:
I just told you that in 10 war decs ZERO ships were killed. Do you have an understanding of what zero means?
Don't be condescending. First off, your population sample is terrible. The alliance I'm usually part of would wardec frequently, and fight every time. We were getting kills through the roof. As the top killer of that alliance OVERALL, I can tell you we were getting plenty of fights with wardecs.
Orion Nex wrote:You honestly believe these high sec war dec corps want fights? My main is in a low sec PvP alliance and one of the big named Merc corps dec'd us. We fleeted up to go kick their teeth in and they run and hide. There is nothing about PvP in the sense your smart ass knows I'm talking about.
Who were you fighting? Because it depends. Forsaken Asylum, Marmite, etc, yeah, if you bring them a fight they probably will run and hide. Pursuit of Happiness or Devil's Warrior on the other hand, or us... come at us, bro. Additionally, due to posting as an NPC, I'm calling you out on this. Post with your main if you expect us to believe it, otherwise, you're lying, and we have no reason to believe otherwise.
Orion Nex wrote:But I'm not telling you anything you don't know.
Actually, you're not telling him anything at all. It is, in fact, you who lacks a great deal of the information you need to have a viable discussion on the topic of wardeccing. So please, be a doll and leave the grown-up stuff to the grown-ups. At least until you're older. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
2557
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 08:14:00 -
[30] - Quote
Dodging wardec is active reaction to other players' initiative, same as warping out when hostiles land on your grid. We may not like it but denial of fights is in fact way of interacting with universe. You want my moon so I will take it down and replace with one of my alt corp. You want to break my chain of logistics - I will use 3rd party for it. You want to "legally" gank my skiffs crunching ice - I drop corp and roll a new one.
You do one thing - I do another to counter yours. As I said, we might not like this all dodging and skulking around but at least one player made other do sth in response. Worst thing that happens is in fact "no undock until war is over" or even worse "no log in until war is over". Those 2 things are just plain wrong because you cut yourself out of your play time instead finding relatively easy way out of your situation.
There's always counter to in-game events, not always "e-honorable", not always nice, not always resulting in full victory but there's always a way. Kind of like flying cloaky in hostile areas - you have to choose your fights and GTFO when sh!t hits the fan even if it results in loss (of drones for example, or fat loot in container or whatever).
Wardecs are far from perfect but nobody should let them to become griefing tools that rob you out of play time you pay for. Look what James315 did at very beginning when people actually were wardeccing him. He rolled his corp ad nauseam and announced himself (and his stabber) invincible. He didn't let others to prevent him from getting max value out of his play time.
RL is full of bullies and sh!t you sometimes cannot prevent and you fail and bad things happen - but that's a RL. Here we have pixel spaceships and pixel villains and pixel consequences - you are free to do whatever you like and you don't have to worry about anything but pixels. What worst can happen, you will fly under another logo for a while? Pffft... Eve Online Overview Wizard: Forum thread Homepage
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