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Dumus
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Posted - 2006.07.14 08:08:00 -
[1]
Just remove it from the game completly. It sucks.
/emote whine and gnashing of teeth. Yes I just lost a HAC to 4 pilots wielding ECM as thier primary weapon and I did'nt like it.
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Great Artista
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Posted - 2006.07.14 08:35:00 -
[2]
Thats why there is no point flying anything expensive, 3x cruisers can take out hac, if 2 of them are blackbirds -------------
˝Artista - One name. One legend.+
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Samirol
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Posted - 2006.07.14 08:43:00 -
[3]
fit extra warp scra...
wait a sec...
ecm sucks when it is being used against you
Originally by: Tekka
Originally by: ISD "Can I have your stuff?" isn't constructive
neither is 95% of the internet
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.07.14 08:46:00 -
[4]
I think target jamming should only be possible on special EW ships. Right now you have about 40-50% chance to jam a cruiser for almost 30 seconds (jam + relock) using a single multispectral. Its overpowered and stupid.
What Hac do you use Dumus?
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Dumus
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Posted - 2006.07.14 09:01:00 -
[5]
My first post was a bit of a joke TBH. I was just venting steam But there is a serious point to be made.
I hate the whole ECM thing mostly because there is no real counter for it. I tried out those eccm thingermebob wotsits and it gave something like 28 points strength. (stronger than a BS!) Mellarinn tried jamming me with 2 multi specs and perma jammed me. So we tried it with just one, and guess what, jammed me 8 times out of 10! It blows because there is no counter that works. In PVP it is the same as handcuffing someone hands behind their back, tyeing one of there legs to the handcuffs and repeatedly punching them in the face. Anyone who has been beaten by ECM knows my pain. I can take being beaten, its why I PVP. I love the rush of it, but being battered and beaten and not being able to do squat but get my Pod ready for the bang 'n' warp make me cry I hate it TBH and think it would improve PvP more than any other nerf.
P.S. I was in my SAC
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Niivvy
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Posted - 2006.07.14 09:06:00 -
[6]
/ signed
i agree eve is turning into not who ha the best ship or the busr skills. its who can jam who first,
target jammers are lame and warp jammers are lame there all lame i have the skills but dont use em cos i aint lame.....
come on ccp de-bork pvp make it fun again
[url="http://oldforums.eveonline.com/? |
Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.07.14 09:08:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 14/07/2006 09:16:01
Originally by: Dumus My first post was a bit of a joke TBH. I was just venting steam But there is a serious point to be made.
I hate the whole ECM thing mostly because there is no real counter for it. I tried out those eccm thingermebob wotsits and it gave something like 28 points strength. (stronger than a BS!) Mellarinn tried jamming me with 2 multi specs and perma jammed me. So we tried it with just one, and guess what, jammed me 8 times out of 10! It blows because there is no counter that works. In PVP it is the same as handcuffing someone hands behind their back, tyeing one of there legs to the handcuffs and repeatedly punching them in the face. Anyone who has been beaten by ECM knows my pain. I can take being beaten, its why I PVP. I love the rush of it, but being battered and beaten and not being able to do squat but get my Pod ready for the bang 'n' warp make me cry I hate it TBH and think it would improve PvP more than any other nerf.
P.S. I was in my SAC
Target jamming is what sucks the most. There really should be better modules to prevent it, not to mention the chance of jamming seems bugged...
We might not need another thread on it, but i get annoyed just hearing about people losing ships to this crap. Every 20 seconds you have 40-50% chance of disabling the enemy ship if you are in a cruiser and trying to jam another cruiser. If the jam succeeds, you almost always win the fight. Even if the jam fails, after 20 seconds, you get a new chance.
The whole thing just gets me annoyed. Its just wrong.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Dumus
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Posted - 2006.07.14 09:16:00 -
[8]
Sorry Jim I meant Jammers. Warp scrams webbers etc I am fine with. It just those 'stop you fighting back' mods I hate.
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Jack Z
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Posted - 2006.07.14 09:20:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Dumus Just remove it from the game completly. It sucks.
/signed
simply lost too many ships to jammers.../me hates jammers ---------------------------------- Jack Z. CEO of Free Arms |
Merdaneth
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Posted - 2006.07.14 09:24:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Dumus Sorry Jim I meant Jammers. Warp scrams webbers etc I am fine with. It just those 'stop you fighting back' mods I hate.
That's what really a core problem with ECM, no so much 'unbalanced' but more 'unfun'.
Games (certainly games with RP elements) are supposed to empower those who play, ECM is nothing short of a severe virtual castration. It makes you feel that nothing what you do matters.
That's the problem.
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Crumplecorn
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Posted - 2006.07.14 09:30:00 -
[11]
Make it work like WCS. Too few points of ECM on them and nothing happens at all, and give all decent ships enough points that it takes a dedicated ship (or more depending on size) to actually jam them. ----------
Always Up To SomethingÖ One of us is really thick, and I hope its you - Kalaan Oratay |
Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.07.14 09:34:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 14/07/2006 09:39:46
Originally by: Crumplecorn Make it work like WCS. Too few points of ECM on them and nothing happens at all, and give all decent ships enough points that it takes a dedicated ship (or more depending on size) to actually jam them.
It used to work that way in the beginning. There was no chance involved at all. If your jammers combined strength were higher than the ships, you would jam.
I think jamming should be possible only on blackbird/scorpion and other EW ships. Perhaps recons as well. Just not all ships. Just like all ships in the military is not capable of electronic warfare.
I get the argument that "Eve should be free and without limits... dont tell us what to fit" when i say that though. But I personally think its ruining otherwise good fights, and also means people blob even more.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Yolan
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Posted - 2006.07.14 09:36:00 -
[13]
I disagree the ECM should be removed from the game as it adds a huge tactical element especially in fleet engagements.
However I do beleive it should be restricted to the specialist ew ships, and those ew ships should be support craft and not able to solo gank.
It could be done along similar lines to the cov ops cloak which can only be fitted to cov ops ships. They could make jammers and sens damps only able to be fitted to specialist ew ships. This will force people to setup their gangs tactically and would remove the frig gangs all with a sens damp/jammer fitted to each one.
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.07.14 09:39:00 -
[14]
/me wouldnt say ECM is totally broken and neither would I say ECM is working perfectly.
But when you jam, you cant tackle, can you? When you solo vs 3-5 people, you dont expect to live, do you? ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.07.14 09:42:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire /me wouldnt say ECM is totally broken and neither would I say ECM is working perfectly.
But when you jam, you cant tackle, can you? When you solo vs 3-5 people, you dont expect to live, do you?
The problem with target jamming is that you dont need the gang to win. You need a multispectral. Thats it.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Infrared Raven
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Posted - 2006.07.14 09:43:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Dumus Just remove it from the game completly. It sucks.
/emote whine and gnashing of teeth. Yes I just lost a HAC to 4 pilots wielding ECM as thier primary weapon and I did'nt like it.
not remove it from game, but limit it to special ships, ie EW-Slots. Scorp would have 8 EW-Slots...
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.07.14 11:02:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 14/07/2006 11:02:22
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire /me wouldnt say ECM is totally broken and neither would I say ECM is working perfectly.
But when you jam, you cant tackle, can you? When you solo vs 3-5 people, you dont expect to live, do you?
The problem with target jamming is that you dont need the gang to win. You need a multispectral. Thats it.
You put one multi and pray for luck. In the meantime, you can either web or scram. Not everyone armour tank, you know... ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
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Wanoah
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Posted - 2006.07.14 11:10:00 -
[18]
You know, I cautiously welcomed the chance-based stuff when it came in, but now I think I preferred it the way it was. Some magical, invisible roll of the dice that decides whether you live or die is just *******s really and it leaves you feeling cheated. Equally, when you are the jammer rather than the 'jammee' and you see all of your jamming attempts fail for absolutely no reason it leaves you feeling cheated.
What is the point of having sensor strengths and racial types etc if it just boils down to a percentage? No, if a ship has 28 points of LADAR strength, I should be able to fit the appropriate jammers to jam 28+ points of LADAR and it should just work. |
Sean Dillon
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Posted - 2006.07.14 11:17:00 -
[19]
If u can't beat them join them.
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Antaris Xenal
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Posted - 2006.07.14 11:19:00 -
[20]
I just gotta agree with the op here, sorry if anyone disagrees. Jamming is bull**** and should be nerfed. 'nuff said. (along with stabs and escrow scams)
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Lord WarATron
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Posted - 2006.07.14 11:24:00 -
[21]
The issue with ecm would be far far better it it effected the enemy's chance to hit, rather than force-break their lock on you. The Current system is that some recon pilot get in the middle of a 30man gang and activates ecm burst to disable most of them in a swoop :) --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE |
Slirtdan Uheran
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Posted - 2006.07.14 11:31:00 -
[22]
Backup arrays. Or you do not wish to scratch your tanking or damage?
5.79 a hypnos multispec with lvl 4 signal dispersion means 20-30% jamming a HAC without a backup array. Place one and feel good.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.07.14 11:34:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Slirtdan Uheran Backup arrays. Or you do not wish to scratch your tanking or damage?
5.79 a hypnos multispec with lvl 4 signal dispersion means 20-30% jamming a HAC without a backup array. Place one and feel good.
Thats the medslot version that cuts the chance to get jammed in half. I would much rather put a multispectral in that medslot and maybe jam the other guy first.
System is fubar.
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Antaris Xenal
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Posted - 2006.07.14 11:35:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Slirtdan Uheran Backup arrays. Or you do not wish to scratch your tanking or damage?
5.79 a hypnos multispec with lvl 4 signal dispersion means 20-30% jamming a HAC without a backup array. Place one and feel good.
System is fubar.
QFT!
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.14 11:39:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 14/07/2006 11:39:13
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Slirtdan Uheran Backup arrays. Or you do not wish to scratch your tanking or damage?
5.79 a hypnos multispec with lvl 4 signal dispersion means 20-30% jamming a HAC without a backup array. Place one and feel good.
Thats the medslot version that cuts the chance to get jammed in half. I would much rather put a multispectral in that medslot and maybe jam the other guy first.
System is fubar.
Hmmm... may be the system isnt bad afterall. If WCS can be made chance based on activation. :O
Also those Backup Arrays and ECCM midslot anti-jam arrays can be fixed so when it is used and we get jammed, there will be a minimum amount of target lock remaining instead of losing everything. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
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Locke DieDrake
Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.07.14 11:41:00 -
[26]
The funny part is, if you don't have a bunch of LVL4 or 5 skills ECM is worthless.
And if you do, you jam more often than not.
I know a pilot that just purchased a rook and refuses to fly it until he has the right skills. Mind you this guy runs T2 multi's on his scorp.
ECM is strong, when you have the skills for it. It's relatively easy to defeat if you don't. Of if you fit backup arrays. Or if you use ECM first. Or if you have a rifter with ECM bursts on it. Or.... yeah, so the list goes on.
Let me ask you something. How often does your HAC take out three cruisers in an engagement? Pretty often right? So... whats the counter to that? Skill up and get a HAC?
Do you appreciate irony? ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________ |
Keta Min
Pre-nerfed Tactics
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Posted - 2006.07.14 11:42:00 -
[27]
yep ecm needs to be changed. the current state just sucks.
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Infinity Ziona
Funshine Bears
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Posted - 2006.07.14 11:46:00 -
[28]
Might be better if being jammed just caused your offensive modules to be much less effective.
That way if you were jammed you could still counter jam back just not as effectively, you could also still fire back less effectively and have the semblence of still actually playing rather then spectating the destruction of your ship.
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Slirtdan Uheran
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.14 11:48:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Slirtdan Uheran on 14/07/2006 11:48:53 As i remember backup arrays are low slot, not med slot.
So please take off your WCS from your HAC and place backup arrays.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.14 11:52:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 14/07/2006 11:39:13
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Slirtdan Uheran Backup arrays. Or you do not wish to scratch your tanking or damage?
5.79 a hypnos multispec with lvl 4 signal dispersion means 20-30% jamming a HAC without a backup array. Place one and feel good.
Thats the medslot version that cuts the chance to get jammed in half. I would much rather put a multispectral in that medslot and maybe jam the other guy first.
System is fubar.
Hmmm... may be the system isnt bad afterall. If WCS can be made chance based on activation. :O
Also those Backup Arrays and ECCM midslot anti-jam arrays can be fixed so when it is used and we get jammed, there will be a minimum amount of target lock remaining instead of losing everything.
Even more dices deciding fate? If I believed in luck over skill, I would play the lotto. But ok, for the sake of argument, if warp scramblers/jammers/all EW was chance based, then it would be pretty annoying to play this game. Most of the important decisions that would affect life or death would be made randomly by the server. The best players wouldnt be the best, they would just be the luckiest.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
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hellwarrior
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.14 11:55:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire /me wouldnt say ECM is totally broken and neither would I say ECM is working perfectly.
But when you jam, you cant tackle, can you? When you solo vs 3-5 people, you dont expect to live, do you?
soloing against 3-5 ships isn't hard, soloing against 1 ship using EW is hard.
then theres the gangs of 5+ who ***** EW on multiple ships because they can't do anything else
*EYEROLL*
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.14 11:59:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 14/07/2006 12:04:15
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
Let me ask you something. How often does your HAC take out three cruisers in an engagement? Pretty often right? So... whats the counter to that? Skill up and get a HAC?
Do you appreciate irony?
I really dont see whats wrong with a elite cruiser managing to kill a few normal cruisers. Its like a cruiser managing to kill a few frigates. Of course that might not happen today because the frigates will just use EW and win any fight. People not realizing its overpowered is beyond me, tbh.
Whats to stop 3 frigates from jumping in on you, keeping you permanently target jammed and finally killing you? Whats the counter to this?
Seriously, thanks to the EW system working the way it does, its actually best to be in a frigate gang compared to any other ship gang. Doesnt matter if you cant tank that well, you just use a multispectral each and take on any ship with ease.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.14 12:04:00 -
[33]
Originally by: hellwarrior
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire /me wouldnt say ECM is totally broken and neither would I say ECM is working perfectly.
But when you jam, you cant tackle, can you? When you solo vs 3-5 people, you dont expect to live, do you?
soloing against 3-5 ships isn't hard, soloing against 1 ship using EW is hard.
then theres the gangs of 5+ who ***** EW on multiple ships because they can't do anything else
*EYEROLL*
Well, some ships like Vagabonds are not very easy to catch unless you can web at 60km or even 240km. If there are several BS, a vaga pilot wont fight. If several cruisers, the pilot might. What other kind of baits do you expect them to make? All in haulers with web, ecm and warp scram?
---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.14 12:07:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Even more dices deciding fate? If I believed in luck over skill, I would play the lotto. But ok, for the sake of argument, if warp scramblers/jammers/all EW was chance based, then it would be pretty annoying to play this game. Most of the important decisions that would affect life or death would be made randomly by the server. The best players wouldnt be the best, they would just be the luckiest.
Game of chance. *If* some combat mechanics can be fixed in EvE, IMHO chance based system would work lovely in this game. Under current game mechanics, make ECM back to previous system and some other stuffs really have to go too. Like T2 ammo. I doubt 1 Scorp can jam 1 sniping BS at 210km away. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
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Locke DieDrake
Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.07.14 12:09:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Locke DieDrake on 14/07/2006 12:10:35
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 14/07/2006 12:04:15
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
Let me ask you something. How often does your HAC take out three cruisers in an engagement? Pretty often right? So... whats the counter to that? Skill up and get a HAC?
Do you appreciate irony?
I really dont see whats wrong with a elite cruiser managing to kill a few normal cruisers. Its like a cruiser managing to kill a few frigates. Of course that might not happen today because the frigates will just use EW and win any fight. People not realizing its overpowered is beyond me, tbh.
Whats to stop 3 frigates from jumping in on you, keeping you permanently target jammed and finally killing you? Whats the counter to this?
Seriously, thanks to the EW system working the way it does, its actually best to be in a frigate gang compared to any other ship gang. Doesnt matter if you cant tank that well, you just use a multispectral each and take on any ship with ease.
Apperently, you don't appreciate irony.
There are many perfectly good counters to ECM. Just like there are counters to a guy in a HAC. Your unwillingness to use them is not cause to nerf the game mechanic you don't like. You with me so far?
IF you have to gimp your ship a bit to fit some backup arrays or an ECM burst, then do so and see how that works for you. I've more than once gotten my interceptor unwebbed, unjammed and unscrammed with a single ecm burst.
EDIT: to answer your question.. the counter to a frig gang is a decent tank and FOF missles or drones. Don't you already know that?
___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________ |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.14 12:09:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Game of chance. *If* some combat mechanics can be fixed in EvE, IMHO chance based system would work lovely in this game. Under current game mechanics, make ECM back to previous system and some other stuffs really have to go too. Like T2 ammo. I doubt 1 Scorp can jam 1 sniping BS at 210km away.
I usually agree with you, but I really cant see what would be good about making the entire module success rate being based on being lucky.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.14 12:15:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Game of chance. *If* some combat mechanics can be fixed in EvE, IMHO chance based system would work lovely in this game. Under current game mechanics, make ECM back to previous system and some other stuffs really have to go too. Like T2 ammo. I doubt 1 Scorp can jam 1 sniping BS at 210km away.
I usually agree with you, but I really cant see what would be good about making the entire module success rate being based on being lucky.
The improbability and things being not certain 100% to spice up life. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.14 12:29:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
The improbability and things being not certain 100% to spice up life.
Well, im going to go ahead and disagree with you on this one. I think chance-based target jamming is way too powerful and as close to the "I Win" button you can get. It doesnt spice up my life in any way when i lose millions of iskies because the server said today im not lucky.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.14 12:33:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
The improbability and things being not certain 100% to spice up life.
Well, im going to go ahead and disagree with you on this one. I think chance-based target jamming is way too powerful and as close to the "I Win" button you can get. It doesnt spice up my life in any way when i lose millions of iskies because the server said today im not lucky.
I didnt 100% agree we should have a chance based system. At least not at the moment but eventually when many things are fixed like instas, bms, etc. Under current in-game mechanics, with T2 210km sniping ammo, I think not even one Scorpion can jam a BS that far. Need to verify this though. A chance based ECM, if you are very lucky can jam the BS though I rarely see it happen. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.14 12:37:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
There are many perfectly good counters to ECM. Just like there are counters to a guy in a HAC. Your unwillingness to use them is not cause to nerf the game mechanic you don't like. You with me so far?
IF you have to gimp your ship a bit to fit some backup arrays or an ECM burst, then do so and see how that works for you. I've more than once gotten my interceptor unwebbed, unjammed and unscrammed with a single ecm burst.
EDIT: to answer your question.. the counter to a frig gang is a decent tank and FOF missles or drones. Don't you already know that?
This doesnt in any way change the fact that a single multispectral is too powerful in combat. Sure there are anti-jamming modules, but giving up 2 low slots or 1 medium slot and still have 20-25% chance of getting target jammed for every multispectral you face... its just not worth it for most people. Chances are, you will still get jammed, and then you have also gimped your setup trying to prevent it.
I do understand your point though, but i dont agree with you that the current system is fine. Not in any way.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
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Terraform
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.14 12:38:00 -
[41]
I still hold on to my own idea about jammers jamming a random module instead of the whole ship. Then it would require a seroiusly load of jammers to incapitate a player completely... but that's just my idea..
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.14 12:40:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire [ I didnt 100% agree we should have a chance based system. At least not at the moment but eventually when many things are fixed like instas, bms, etc. Under current in-game mechanics, with T2 210km sniping ammo, I think not even one Scorpion can jam a BS that far. Need to verify this though. A chance based ECM, if you are very lucky can jam the BS though I rarely see it happen.
Yeah, maybe it will work in some future version of Eve, we'll see... I dont enjoy getting sniped from 210 km either, but luckily, the devs are trying to fix this in some way.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Locke DieDrake
Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.07.14 15:20:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Locke DieDrake on 14/07/2006 15:21:42
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
There are many perfectly good counters to ECM. Just like there are counters to a guy in a HAC. Your unwillingness to use them is not cause to nerf the game mechanic you don't like. You with me so far?
IF you have to gimp your ship a bit to fit some backup arrays or an ECM burst, then do so and see how that works for you. I've more than once gotten my interceptor unwebbed, unjammed and unscrammed with a single ecm burst.
EDIT: to answer your question.. the counter to a frig gang is a decent tank and FOF missles or drones. Don't you already know that?
This doesnt in any way change the fact that a single multispectral is too powerful in combat. Sure there are anti-jamming modules, but giving up 2 low slots or 1 medium slot and still have 20-25% chance of getting target jammed for every multispectral you face... its just not worth it for most people. Chances are, you will still get jammed, and then you have also gimped your setup trying to prevent it.
I do understand your point though, but i dont agree with you that the current system is fine. Not in any way.
damn forums nuked my post.
Well, let me tell you how I see. You may still not agree. But thats ok.
My character spent more than 1m points on Ewar skills. I can jam just about anything, just about any range.
Your Character spent about 10m skill points to be a HAC pilot. You can kill just about anything at just about any range.
I don't see how my jamming you is in any way unfair. I don't have 10m skill points to put into HAC's and weapons (not yet anyway). But you could train Ewar skills in a matter of weeks.
You see where I'm going with this?
My point of course is that Ewar is not hard to train, and not 100%. While a HAC is hard to train but also practically 100% likely to kill anything less than a BS in 1v1 combat. And PROBABLY going to kill the BS too.
I will concede that it's likely that at high skill levels certain ECM modules are a bit overpowered. Gimping them of course means that they just aren't usable at anything less than top skills. But I don't have a problem with that. (remember, I have good, not perfect, ewar skills)
I could stand to see multispectrals reduced in power a bit. But racials need to be left alone if you do that. And at top skills, using multispectrals, a pilot should have not worse than 45% chance to jam.
It's not my fault people stack ECM in their gangs. It's the same reason people stack up HAC's with T2 weapons. They WORK. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________ |
Soumk
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Posted - 2006.07.14 15:35:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Dumus Just remove it from the game completly. It sucks.
Or you could work with a team and JAM THE JAMMERS.
Simple, and it works.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.14 15:41:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
damn forums nuked my post.
Well, let me tell you how I see. You may still not agree. But thats ok.
My character spent more than 1m points on Ewar skills. I can jam just about anything, just about any range.
Your Character spent about 10m skill points to be a HAC pilot. You can kill just about anything at just about any range.
I don't see how my jamming you is in any way unfair. I don't have 10m skill points to put into HAC's and weapons (not yet anyway). But you could train Ewar skills in a matter of weeks.
You see where I'm going with this?
My point of course is that Ewar is not hard to train, and not 100%. While a HAC is hard to train but also practically 100% likely to kill anything less than a BS in 1v1 combat. And PROBABLY going to kill the BS too.
I will concede that it's likely that at high skill levels certain ECM modules are a bit overpowered. Gimping them of course means that they just aren't usable at anything less than top skills. But I don't have a problem with that. (remember, I have good, not perfect, ewar skills)
I could stand to see multispectrals reduced in power a bit. But racials need to be left alone if you do that. And at top skills, using multispectrals, a pilot should have not worse than 45% chance to jam.
It's not my fault people stack ECM in their gangs. It's the same reason people stack up HAC's with T2 weapons. They WORK.
Ok, you are arguing that the current EW system is fine because it only requires 1 mill skillpoints to be able to jam good, and that it gives you the ability to level the playing field vs older pilots.
Im arguing that one module should not be able to give you 40-50% chance every 20 seconds of target jamming the opponent, using any ship you want, because I feel its overpowered. Also i feel that the counter modules arent really worth using because you still have a high chance of getting jammed. Therefore i feel it should be limited to special EW ships.
Maybe you and me can agree on that target jamming works fine, but should be limited to the EW ships?
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Mazupty
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Posted - 2006.07.14 16:10:00 -
[46]
Instead of shutting down the targetting system completly, maybe reducing the number of target of the jammed ship by the difference between ecm point and sensor points? |
Locke DieDrake
Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.07.14 16:25:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
damn forums nuked my post.
Well, let me tell you how I see. You may still not agree. But thats ok.
My character spent more than 1m points on Ewar skills. I can jam just about anything, just about any range.
Your Character spent about 10m skill points to be a HAC pilot. You can kill just about anything at just about any range.
I don't see how my jamming you is in any way unfair. I don't have 10m skill points to put into HAC's and weapons (not yet anyway). But you could train Ewar skills in a matter of weeks.
You see where I'm going with this?
My point of course is that Ewar is not hard to train, and not 100%. While a HAC is hard to train but also practically 100% likely to kill anything less than a BS in 1v1 combat. And PROBABLY going to kill the BS too.
I will concede that it's likely that at high skill levels certain ECM modules are a bit overpowered. Gimping them of course means that they just aren't usable at anything less than top skills. But I don't have a problem with that. (remember, I have good, not perfect, ewar skills)
I could stand to see multispectrals reduced in power a bit. But racials need to be left alone if you do that. And at top skills, using multispectrals, a pilot should have not worse than 45% chance to jam.
It's not my fault people stack ECM in their gangs. It's the same reason people stack up HAC's with T2 weapons. They WORK.
Ok, you are arguing that the current EW system is fine because it only requires 1 mill skillpoints to be able to jam good, and that it gives you the ability to level the playing field vs older pilots.
Im arguing that one module should not be able to give you 40-50% chance every 20 seconds of target jamming the opponent, using any ship you want, because I feel its overpowered. Also i feel that the counter modules arent really worth using because you still have a high chance of getting jammed. Therefore i feel it should be limited to special EW ships.
Maybe you and me can agree on that target jamming works fine, but should be limited to the EW ships?
We can agree it works fine. But I'm not in favor of limiting it to ships.
My solution for the problem is to increase the effectiveness of counter modules. ALOT. Like say 200%. Afterall, you are gimping your tank or damage in order to fit them.
Take an example.
2x multis with good skills has about 98% chance to jam constantly against a cruiser.
If that same cruise fits a backup array of the corret type, the chance to jam for 2x multi's should be less than 60%. And 2 backup modules would make it less than 20%.
Thats the solution in my opinion. The jammers are strong, so should the counter modules.
The best part is, many people still won't fit ECCM because it gimps their ship a bit. So jammers would still be usefull.
I use jammers to AVOID combat. I don't use them in combat. I think it's a rather lame tactic, and I try to fight with honor when it's possible. (read, when not uber outnumbered) That being said, I really like seeing a rook in my gangs, because it means, more likely than not, that my paper thin interceptor or interdictor is going to survive alot longer.
___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________ |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.14 16:40:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
My solution for the problem is to increase the effectiveness of counter modules. ALOT. Like say 200%. Afterall, you are gimping your tank or damage in order to fit them.
Yeah, sounds good. If people are using 2 or more multispectrals, they are either in a EW ship anyway, or are gimping their ship severly for the increased chance of jamming. Both are fine to me.
One multispectral (vs cruiser) have about 40-50% chance of jamming, but if the counter module strength would be doubled, then the medslot version would make that chance about 10-12.5%. That sounds much more reasonable compared to the 20-25% it is today WITH one counter module fitted.
So basicly double the strength of counter modules (both med slot and low slot) to make them useful.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Locke DieDrake
Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.07.14 16:45:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
My solution for the problem is to increase the effectiveness of counter modules. ALOT. Like say 200%. Afterall, you are gimping your tank or damage in order to fit them.
Yeah, sounds good. If people are using 2 or more multispectrals, they are either in a EW ship anyway, or are gimping their ship severly for the increased chance of jamming. Both are fine to me.
One multispectral (vs cruiser) have about 40-50% chance of jamming, but if the counter module strength would be doubled, then the medslot version would make that chance about 10-12.5%. That sounds much more reasonable compared to the 20-25% it is today WITH one counter module fitted.
So basicly double the strength of counter modules (both med slot and low slot) to make them useful.
I can get behind that. I like jamming the way it is now. (I wish scraming worked the same way) But the counter modules should be worth using. And not just worth it, but should practically negate the ECM in the first place.
The real world framework for ECM/ECCM is different, and doesn't apply to eve. But just to make a point, IRL, it's much easier to scramble a frequency or a whole range of them than it is to unscramble them. But thats really only true for common frequencies. I don't see alot of 5gw burst transceivers lying around radio shack. ;)
___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________ |
PeeWee Pee
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Posted - 2006.07.14 16:51:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire [ I didnt 100% agree we should have a chance based system. At least not at the moment but eventually when many things are fixed like instas, bms, etc. Under current in-game mechanics, with T2 210km sniping ammo, I think not even one Scorpion can jam a BS that far. Need to verify this though. A chance based ECM, if you are very lucky can jam the BS though I rarely see it happen.
Yeah, maybe it will work in some future version of Eve, we'll see... I dont enjoy getting sniped from 210 km either, but luckily, the devs are trying to fix this in some way.
why dont we just keep sensor boosters the way they are and boost EW to have 200km range so snipers can be jammed. or give us large battleship EW modules with 200km range but use more grid for fits.
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Locke DieDrake
Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.07.14 16:57:00 -
[51]
Originally by: PeeWee Pee
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire [ I didnt 100% agree we should have a chance based system. At least not at the moment but eventually when many things are fixed like instas, bms, etc. Under current in-game mechanics, with T2 210km sniping ammo, I think not even one Scorpion can jam a BS that far. Need to verify this though. A chance based ECM, if you are very lucky can jam the BS though I rarely see it happen.
Yeah, maybe it will work in some future version of Eve, we'll see... I dont enjoy getting sniped from 210 km either, but luckily, the devs are trying to fix this in some way.
why dont we just keep sensor boosters the way they are and boost EW to have 200km range so snipers can be jammed. or give us large battleship EW modules with 200km range but use more grid for fits.
Have you ever seen a Blackbird or a Rook?
They can easily jam at 200km. You might need a sensor booster or two, and you need top of the line ewar skills. But it's not the least bit hard. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________ |
PriceCheckMax
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Posted - 2006.07.14 17:12:00 -
[52]
For example a gang of 4 cruisers, moa, maller, rupture were to team up. Instead of everyone going for the solo setup "MWD, web, disruptor" they use their drones/med slots for ecm. Requires setups for the gang, not for solo... I can't see anything wrong in that. If ecm was to be nerfed to be useless suggests we would only get "more sp/isk" wins... I can only see the 1 multispectral being too tough, guess one solution would be to remove multispectrals alltogether
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Rodj Blake
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.14 17:18:00 -
[53]
The main problem with ECM at the moment is that it's not possible to improve your non-standard sensor strength with backups or ECCM - ie use gravimetric sensors on a LADAR ship.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori |
Synapse Archae
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.14 18:03:00 -
[54]
"OMG I CANT GANK ENOUGH NUBS NERF TEH ECM!!"
Thats basically what I'm getting out of this thread. I'm almost completely happy with the state of ECM today. ECM pilots have weak armor, and cant expect to kill anything because their damage sucks so bad. Expecting to win 4v1 against a gang of pilots who have built their ships to counter your setup is just asking to lose a HAC.
Maybe I can point out a few things: ECM ships do crap for dammage. A well tanked HAC should be able to both outrun and outtank 4 blackbirds, so I'm assuming you were up against 4 scorps? In which case dont expect to win 4v1 against any battleship. Hell it took me 5 minutes to kill a helios in a BB. My BB nearly lost to a MINING BARGE. So it sounds to me like your setup sucked if it couldnt tank the damage output of 4 mining barges. ECMs fail a lot when your enemy has an ECCM on. Maybe you need to fit one? ECM ships are ridiculously unarmored, bring a friend with you and its over. ECM ships have very little defence against drones. Should a HAC really be able to expect to win 4v1 all the time?
The only caveat I can think of is groups of pilots who use a single multispectral each in their setup. But you said ECM was the primary weapon so I'm assuming not.
In other words you could have beaten them but they had "the correct setup(tm)" and you didn't like that.
---------------------------------------------
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=349194&page=1Redo Fleets[/ur |
Wesley Harding
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Posted - 2006.07.14 19:17:00 -
[55]
Make ECM a high slot module. That'd work out great for the Scorpion and Blackbird.
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Macon Squaredealer
Squaredeal Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.07.14 20:25:00 -
[56]
Thread translation:
Dear CCP,
We demand you nerf or remove ECM because we refuse to gimp our all out offense setups. We want nothing more than WTF D/S POONAGE and a tank good enough to hold up long enough against the other guys WTF D/S POONAGE. Allowing ECM to actually counter my one dimensional setup takes away my I win button. Please give it back. Yes I know there are mod's to counter ECM but I can't be bothered to even put on an AB much less those other useless mod's than don't increase my D/S or my tank.
Thank you ___________________________________________ Watch for the Squaredeal Enterprises IPO in the coming months. |
Cloud Alexander
Nubs.
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Posted - 2006.07.14 20:32:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Crumplecorn Make it work like WCS. Too few points of ECM on them and nothing happens at all, and give all decent ships enough points that it takes a dedicated ship (or more depending on size) to actually jam them.
They had it like this before with the Point system.....That is certianly the best for ECM right now a rifter can target jam a battleship......which is beyond amazing and entertaining......BRING BACK THE POINT SYSTEM. I hate it when a single frig jams out battleships!
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.14 20:37:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
Originally by: PeeWee Pee
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire [ I didnt 100% agree we should have a chance based system. At least not at the moment but eventually when many things are fixed like instas, bms, etc. Under current in-game mechanics, with T2 210km sniping ammo, I think not even one Scorpion can jam a BS that far. Need to verify this though. A chance based ECM, if you are very lucky can jam the BS though I rarely see it happen.
Yeah, maybe it will work in some future version of Eve, we'll see... I dont enjoy getting sniped from 210 km either, but luckily, the devs are trying to fix this in some way.
why dont we just keep sensor boosters the way they are and boost EW to have 200km range so snipers can be jammed. or give us large battleship EW modules with 200km range but use more grid for fits.
Have you ever seen a Blackbird or a Rook?
They can easily jam at 200km. You might need a sensor booster or two, and you need top of the line ewar skills. But it's not the least bit hard.
It is borked because BS should be better than cruiser hull. T2 sniping turret BS can shoot 200km, T2 sniping HACs cant. If they could, CCP should just throw BS into the bins. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
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Dumus
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.14 23:22:00 -
[59]
OK lots of assumptions here.
Let me clear a few of them up.
1. I never use stabs nor ever would in combat or not. They suck period and should be removed. 2. ECM backup arrays (there are low slot and med slot versions) suck they are not effective. If you had read my second post you would see the example I recited. If I have taken the trouble to gimp my ability's by fitting a back up array it should work. ECM burst are next to useless because the range is pathetic. 3. It is good that in this game, 5, 4 month old players can take me down in my HAC (cos thats what happened) But the only reason I lost my ship was because I could not fire back. They did a great job at trapping me and luring me to them. But in the end it was ECM that beat me. They would more than likely still beat me had they not used it. But I would have taken a few of them with me. I know it sounds like I am just a sore loser. If thats what you want to think then there is not much I can do to stop you. But let me tell you what I believe is the truth about why I feel so sore. I had no fun whatsoever during this fight, I was jammed, triple webbed, scrammed, and being bumped from the gate. I could do NOTHING to fight back. In my opinion this just sucked, as does ECM jammers. I would seriously, if I was in charge, take them out of the game.
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Dumus
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.14 23:33:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Macon Squaredealer Thread translation:
Dear CCP,
We demand you nerf or remove ECM because we refuse to gimp our all out offense setups. We want nothing more than WTF D/S POONAGE and a tank good enough to hold up long enough against the other guys WTF D/S POONAGE. Allowing ECM to actually counter my one dimensional setup takes away my I win button. Please give it back. Yes I know there are mod's to counter ECM but I can't be bothered to even put on an AB much less those other useless mod's than don't increase my D/S or my tank.
Thank you
You complete and utter nublet. You have no clue at all. You did not read my post's at all did you. Get back under your bridge troll!
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Ris Dnalor
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.15 00:14:00 -
[61]
ccp has their mind of fleet warfare miethinks... -- Talking in circles is more dizzying than walking in them... tralala
Character For Sale For Isk
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Xaen
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.15 00:34:00 -
[62]
Basically what I seem to be hearing is:
Quote: Jamming takes away my solo pwnmobile because I don't account for ECM. So please nerf jamming so my solo pwnmobile will be 100% unstoppable again.
Just reading between the lines here.
And yes, I know, I'm an abrasive bastard.
----------------------------------------------------------------- Theists should not try to use logic to prove their gods exist; it makes as much sense as spiders playing with matches. |
Deja Thoris
Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.07.15 01:30:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Synapse Archae Edited by: Synapse Archae on 14/07/2006 18:07:22 "OMG I CANT GANK ENOUGH NUBS NERF TEH ECM!!"
Thats basically what I'm getting out of this thread. I'm almost completely happy with the state of ECM today. ECM pilots have weak armor, and cant expect to kill anything because their damage sucks so bad. Expecting to win 4v1 against a gang of pilots who have built their ships to counter your setup is just asking to lose a HAC. No one soloes with an ECM ship. It almost always loses to enemy drones.
Maybe I can point out a few things: ECM ships do crap for dammage. A well tanked HAC should be able to both outrun and outtank 4 blackbirds, so I'm assuming you were up against 4 scorps? In which case dont expect to win 4v1 against any battleship. Hell it took me 5 minutes to kill a helios in a BB. My BB nearly lost to a MINING BARGE. So it sounds to me like your setup sucked if it couldnt tank the damage output of 4 mining barges. ECMs fail a lot when your enemy has an ECCM on. Maybe you need to fit one? ECM ships are ridiculously unarmored, bring a friend with you and its over. ECM ships have very little defence against drones. Should a HAC really be able to expect to win 4v1 all the time?
The only caveat I can think of is groups of pilots who use a single multispectral each in their setup. But you said ECM was the primary weapon so I'm assuming not.
ECM is pretty broken. I've been on the giving end of this and the receiving end.
I've turned a 2v2 hac fight where I was in structure to a 2-0 win with one multispec.
Who cares how weak a scorp is physically? I'll bet my ship on permajamming 2 other bs's and perhaps 3 for the duration of a fight with my skills. You don't need to tank if you don't take damage.
Perhaps Dumas didnt use the best example but ECM sure could use some big time tweaking imo (and I have way over 3 mill SP invested in electronics so I should be asking for it to be boosted)
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Scoundrelus
The Black Fleet
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Posted - 2006.07.15 01:47:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Dumus Just remove it from the game completly. It sucks.
/emote whine and gnashing of teeth. Yes I just lost a HAC to 4 pilots wielding ECM as thier primary weapon and I did'nt like it.
I feel your pain. I lost a HAC to ECM once, I just had to sit there and die. After that I threw out my 'fairplay' and started being an ECM ***** too. As I always say, You can't be a nice guy in a *****es world. What proof that ECM is overpowered? My Maller, along with a thorax and another maller took down the Zealot of a 2004 player and it was fully faction fitted. The two guys that were with me had 4 mil and 12 mil SP. So I've been on both sides of the coin, ECM is annoying as hell. The fact that there is a mod out there that can prevent you from using ANY offensive mods is just stupid.
Removing ECM would be an issue however because you would have to change many ships in the game like Blackbird, Falcon, Scorpian etc. ===============================================
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Lord Spidey
Hmmzor.
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Posted - 2006.07.15 02:00:00 -
[65]
I agree with OP.
Nothing like running into gangs where MEGATHRONS have multispecs and escort caracals are carrying 2 a peice.
Nothing like watching my scorp get jammed with a medium slot backup array Nothing like watching my dedicated jamming ship with t2 jammers fail to jam anything.
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MellaRinn
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.07.15 02:08:00 -
[66]
Well, after reading a lot of thought out comments as well as trollage, here is what I will write.
1. I was using a Dominix with 2 Compulsive Multis (second best) and had Dumus permajammed with 1 failure for about 4 minutes in his Sacrilege with the best ECCM active module mounted. This means - my dominix DRONE battleship was permajamming a HAC with 98% more strength than the base. My skills aren't that great in EW - signal dispersion lv 3. Takes about a day to train after a few days of higher level basic ew skill training which you need for cap/t2 variant anyway.
2. YES, I do object to 3 t1 fitted ECM-horsing cruisers to be able to take out a HAC (let's be realistic - a ship needing at least 4 months of dedicated, specialisation training to fly EFFECTIVELY), while my t1 fitted Megathron can't break this SAC's tank 1v1 without drones (my gunnery sucks, but this was to make a point that SAC is the best tanked HAC in game, if that's the last thing it's good for).
3. I don't object to be jammed 90% of the time in anything short of the biggest, toughest ships fitted with ECCM, by an EW oriented ship (Rook, Scorp, BB, Falcon).
4. E-War needs a fix badly, as we all know. Those who don't clearly have no clue about game balance.
Any comments?
Click |
Wesley Harding
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Posted - 2006.07.15 04:05:00 -
[67]
Originally by: MellaRinn Well, after reading a lot of thought out comments as well as trollage, here is what I will write.
1. I was using a Dominix with 2 Compulsive Multis (second best) and had Dumus permajammed with 1 failure for about 4 minutes in his Sacrilege with the best ECCM active module mounted. This means - my dominix DRONE battleship was permajamming a HAC with 98% more strength than the base. My skills aren't that great in EW - signal dispersion lv 3. Takes about a day to train after a few days of higher level basic ew skill training which you need for cap/t2 variant anyway.
2. YES, I do object to 3 t1 fitted ECM-horsing cruisers to be able to take out a HAC (let's be realistic - a ship needing at least 4 months of dedicated, specialisation training to fly EFFECTIVELY), while my t1 fitted Megathron can't break this SAC's tank 1v1 without drones (my gunnery sucks, but this was to make a point that SAC is the best tanked HAC in game, if that's the last thing it's good for).
3. I don't object to be jammed 90% of the time in anything short of the biggest, toughest ships fitted with ECCM, by an EW oriented ship (Rook, Scorp, BB, Falcon).
4. E-War needs a fix badly, as we all know. Those who don't clearly have no clue about game balance.
Any comments?
Um, it'd take like half a day to train heavy nos. Put a couple on your Mega and most ships in the game won't be able to tank you anywhere.
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Prestis
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Posted - 2006.07.15 04:05:00 -
[68]
I still like the idea of just removing multi-spectrals.
Specialist ECM ships could fit every racial type and still get jams off, and other ships would need intel on their targets to fit the right ones. Or they could fit for the ships they're most likely to encounter (*cough* gravimetric *cough*), which would give a bonus to the 'less popular' races of EVE.
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burek
A.W.M
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Posted - 2006.07.15 04:16:00 -
[69]
I agree that ECM is lame the way it works. There should be more emphasis on it being effective on EW ships instead of everything. Yes, I realise they already have bonuses but the modules them selves still work too well on other ships.
Maybe the EW ship bonuses should be doubled or trippled and the strength of the modules nerfed by half or more. That is if you must keep the current system.
It's just nothing lamer when you should absolutely annihilate someone due to being superior in character skills, RL skills and you have them scrambled etc for them to jam you with their magic 3 midslot ****box. Or a totally even skills fight between two tempests with identical setups. He who's jammer doesn't fail, wins. That is the bottom line today pretty much, since everyone's packing anyway.
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Ehker Gerete
HelpCorp United
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Posted - 2006.07.15 04:55:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Ehker Gerete on 15/07/2006 05:00:00 I think that ECM should only work on specalised ECM ships (Rook, BB, Scorpion), unless you have a rank 22 skill to level 5. AND it would need a bit of specalisation.
Only problem i see is the current state of tracking disruptors, they dont work that well and most Arbitrator/Curse/Pilgrim pilots just fit ECM instead. So, considering the slots on those ships, there should be a Tracking Disruptor and a Missile Disruptor. one of these modules is enough to disable missiles/turrets.
A tracking disruptor does what it does now but a larger effect. a missile disruptor would increase the explosion radius.
Missile Disruptor I: Explosion Radius multiplier: 2x Explosion Velocity Multiplier: x0.375
In an arbitrator with cruiser 4 (and navigation 4, no AB):
Explosion Radius multiplier: 2.4x Explosion Velocity Multiplier: x0.25
Scourge heavy missile shot from a caracal with cruiser 4 and heavy missiles 4:
explosion radius of 360m Explosion velocity of 187.5 216 damage
Arbitrator is 130m and 204m/s This would end up with the missile doing 71.7 damage
of course, the weapon disrupting modules wouldnt work well on anything besides a ship made for them, as goes with ECM and sensor damps. These ships have a built in tradeoff that they have paper thin defenses. they can't tank that well, so their EW becomes their tank. but when a 4 midslot whatever that armor tanks can OMGWTFPWN tank and fit ECM and OMGWTFPWN DPS its outbalanced.
and the stats i had are still screw-around-with-able. but an arbitrator should have something like this in its 4 midslots: 1x AB/web, 1x scram, 1x missile disruptor, 1x turret disruptor.
a pilgrim can fit AB, web, and scram, and a curse can fit that and better ewar.
of course the tradeoff is that pilgrim and curse are more expensive. and between those two, the pilgrim can covops cloak, which is pretty damn nice, and the curse has to fit the speed and lock time gimping cloak, if any.
Please keep your signature below the 24000 bytes limit.- Pirlouit There. Fixed. - Ehker |
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Lo3d3R
Implant Liberation Front
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Posted - 2006.07.15 09:42:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Dumus Just remove it from the game completly. It sucks.
agreed. ____________________
Eating Chopped Bear |
Ilyana
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2006.07.15 09:54:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Ilyana on 15/07/2006 10:02:47
Quote:
After that I threw out my 'fairplay' and started being an ECM ***** too. As I always say, You can't be a nice guy in a *****es world. My Maller, along with a thorax and another maller took down the Zealot of a 2004 player and it was fully faction fitted. The two guys that were with me had 4 mil and 12 mil SP.
Wow, you must feel really uber now.
This is the reason player disabling moves in MMORPGs suck badly, it's human nature. Several people figure it out and before we know it, the entire game uses them. You see the same with player disabling moves in every MMORPG. It's a nightmare to balance properly.
I've been reading up on the new system after a loong time of absence and it isn't necessarily completely broken but needs heavy tweaking. It seems the base chance to jam someone with only 1 jammer is a bit high. Removing EW isn't really an option since people probably invested heavily in skills for it.
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Dumus
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.15 10:01:00 -
[73]
It is very difficult to balance a game I agree. You should all be glad I am NOT in charge I take my hat off to CCP for the job they do. But Multispecs are really borked and it spoils the fun in my opinion not just for the Jammed but also for the Jammer. I get no pleasure from winning with ease. I like my pulse to be racing and getting the shakes. The sense of elation from a good fight is what I am after not this cant do **** to defend my self.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.15 10:06:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Ilyana
Quote:
After that I threw out my 'fairplay' and started being an ECM ***** too. As I always say, You can't be a nice guy in a *****es world. My Maller, along with a thorax and another maller took down the Zealot of a 2004 player and it was fully faction fitted. The two guys that were with me had 4 mil and 12 mil SP.
Wow, you must feel really uber now.
This is the reason most MMORPG pvp sucks badly, it's human nature. Several people figure out the iwin approaches and before we know it, the entire game uses them. You see the same with player disabling moves in every MMORPG. It's horrible to balance properly.
I dont know any other game where you can keep the other played stunlocked for the entire fight, even as a total newbie. Target jamming is way too powerful when used on normal combat ships.
Its time to do something about this. Its been too long now and nothing is being done. The fact that EW wasnt even allowed in the pvp tournament really does show that its too powerful. A gang of caldari missile spammers combined with EW would wtfpwn the other side no matter what they did. --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
PriceCheckMax
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Posted - 2006.07.15 11:03:00 -
[75]
Correct me if I am wrong, but haven't devs stated that the don't want solopwn mobiles?
3 t1 cruisers attacking your hac? What, do you expect them to go with speed mod, web and 20km disruptor each? Instead they choose to fit things that are the best for the gang(EW)! I really can't see wrong with that, it is a multiplayer() game after all, not some "I-solo-pwn-players-with-less-sp" game.
I can only see the issue of multispectrals being too strong, remove them and ECM will be more or less balanced in my opinion.
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Lifewire
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.15 11:17:00 -
[76]
I think the old ECM system was better - but people saying ECM should be completly removed or nerfed have to see this:
What can a scorpion or a blackbird do? These ships are lousy damage dealers and would be totally useless without ECM. Why use a Scorp or Blackbird if i can use a Mega or a Thorax??? The only reason is: ECM. This is where those caldary ships are good at. To remove ECM from the game means to recode Caldary ships and missiles. So - simply forget it - ECM will stay. And ECM is good - to fight outnumbered ECM is an option.
Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/ Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/
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Yolan
Stupid People Always Need Killing E N I G M A
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Posted - 2006.07.15 12:36:00 -
[77]
ECM for ECM ships only.
Sorted.
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Powder Monkey
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Posted - 2006.07.15 13:03:00 -
[78]
Jammed a raven with 1 named 4.6 multi 3 times in a row in my thorax
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.15 13:05:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Powder Monkey Jammed a raven with 1 named 4.6 multi 3 times in a row in my thorax
Happens every day. Some people feel thats game balance. I dont.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Tao Han
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.15 13:40:00 -
[80]
Midslot EW ------ Tracking DisruptorsTurrets have a harder time hitting you, good for close combat ships Sensor DampeningLocking range reduced, good for long range combat ships Target Painting (!)Enhance damage vs painted ship ECMTargeted ship has a great chance of not being able to target anything ------
Then add to the fact that devs has a great problem balancing ECM, earlier the chance to jam was guaranteed but that was changed for our dice rolling system of today. My main problem with ECM is that there really isnt a good way to counter it, ECCM is a joke even if it was improved some weeks ago.
If we keep ECM make the victim of it not being able to target the ship which is using the ECM module. And I suggest this because currently being a ECM victim renders your skillpoints and ship totaly useless and that isnt fun. Fun should be the goal to strive for and not being able to defend himself makes ECM overpowered and it removes the fun from the game.
------ Another idea:
ECM modules lowers the amount of targets you can have locked. For each module that "sticks" on the target one "lock slot" is removed. this should remove the "lucky bastard with one ECM module" syndrome that seems to be everywhere.
------
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Epsilon 1
mUfFiN fAcToRy
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Posted - 2006.07.15 13:41:00 -
[81]
Make them a high slot module with a very high CPU/tf requirment. End of story
Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
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MellaRinn
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.07.15 13:53:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Wesley Harding
Originally by: MellaRinn Well, after reading a lot of thought out comments as well as trollage, here is what I will write. 1. I was using a Dominix with 2 Compulsive Multis (second best) and had Dumus permajammed with 1 failure for about 4 minutes in his Sacrilege with the best ECCM active module mounted. This means - my dominix DRONE battleship was permajamming a HAC with 98% more strength than the base. My skills aren't that great in EW - signal dispersion lv 3. Takes about a day to train after a few days of higher level basic ew skill training which you need for cap/t2 variant anyway. 2. YES, I do object to 3 t1 fitted ECM-horsing cruisers to be able to take out a HAC (let's be realistic - a ship needing at least 4 months of dedicated, specialisation training to fly EFFECTIVELY), while my t1 fitted Megathron can't break this SAC's tank 1v1 without drones (my gunnery sucks, but this was to make a point that SAC is the best tanked HAC in game, if that's the last thing it's good for). 3. I don't object to be jammed 90% of the time in anything short of the biggest, toughest ships fitted with ECCM, by an EW oriented ship (Rook, Scorp, BB, Falcon). 4. E-War needs a fix badly, as we all know. Those who don't clearly have no clue about game balance. Any comments?
Um, it'd take like half a day to train heavy nos. Put a couple on your Mega and most ships in the game won't be able to tank you anywhere.
LOL! you just made me laugh my head off.. FYI my Mega setup is the standard 1 heavy nos setup with a full set of low-grade talismans in my head. So you can take your worthless comment back as I was referring to the structural integrity of Sacrilege and its pure DPS tanking ability rather than survivability as a way of exemplifying the nature of the problem whereby a tiny group of under 5month old players in t1 cruisers can take out a ship that takes about as long to train for as they have been flying anything bigger than a velator.
As well as that, if you didn't notice, heavy nos is countered even in pairs by cap injection of 800s. go do the maths, Sacrilege is the best cruiser tank ingame and though it will not survive to a BS, it can tank it a long time. kthxbai..
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Celedris
Tharsis Security
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Posted - 2006.07.15 15:27:00 -
[83]
Originally by: MellaRinn the nature of the problem whereby a tiny group of under 5month old players in t1 cruisers can take out a ship that takes about as long to train for as they have been flying
There are problems with the ECM system, but do you really think a veteran HAC pilot should be automatically entitled to take down four T1 cruisers at the same time?
One of things that is nice about Eve is that its not like WoW, where the guy with the huge glowy epic sword will automatically kill a group of people with inferior equipment.
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Infinity Ziona
The First Noble Truth
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Posted - 2006.07.15 16:54:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 15/07/2006 16:54:28
Originally by: Celedris
Originally by: MellaRinn the nature of the problem whereby a tiny group of under 5month old players in t1 cruisers can take out a ship that takes about as long to train for as they have been flying
There are problems with the ECM system, but do you really think a veteran HAC pilot should be automatically entitled to take down four T1 cruisers at the same time?
One of things that is nice about Eve is that its not like WoW, where the guy with the huge glowy epic sword will automatically kill a group of people with inferior equipment.
Glowy **** pwns stuff. You obviously havent been keeping up on the recent pawnage overseas by some of the more highly trained and high tech nations.
Training and high technology should always beat a rabble of untrained low tech muggers.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2006.07.15 17:50:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Noriath on 15/07/2006 17:51:26 ECM has to go, it's one of the worst basic mechanics in all of Eve.
The fact that EW was outlawed at the alliance tournament speaks volumes about how balanced it really is.
And to people saying: "It should only work on special EW ships" - how does that help it? One of the main reasons why ECM is so ridiculous is because of specialized EW ships that can not only fit twice as much of it as anyone else, but also get completly over the top bonuses on it...
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Strong Bubba
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Posted - 2006.07.15 17:51:00 -
[86]
Love it how ccp didn't include ecm in the tournament, shows it all
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Logan Fyreite
Nubs.
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Posted - 2006.07.15 18:22:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Synapse Archae Edited by: Synapse Archae on 14/07/2006 18:07:22 "OMG I CANT GANK ENOUGH NUBS NERF TEH ECM!!"
Thats basically what I'm getting out of this thread. I'm almost completely happy with the state of ECM today. ECM pilots have weak armor, and cant expect to kill anything because their damage sucks so bad. Expecting to win 4v1 against a gang of pilots who have built their ships to counter your setup is just asking to lose a HAC. No one soloes with an ECM ship. It almost always loses to enemy drones.
Maybe I can point out a few things: ECM ships do crap for dammage. A well tanked HAC should be able to both outrun and outtank 4 blackbirds, so I'm assuming you were up against 4 scorps? In which case dont expect to win 4v1 against any battleship. Hell it took me 5 minutes to kill a helios in a BB. My BB nearly lost to a MINING BARGE. So it sounds to me like your setup sucked if it couldnt tank the damage output of 4 mining barges. ECMs fail a lot when your enemy has an ECCM on. Maybe you need to fit one? ECM ships are ridiculously unarmored, bring a friend with you and its over. ECM ships have very little defence against drones. Should a HAC really be able to expect to win 4v1 all the time?
The only caveat I can think of is groups of pilots who use a single multispectral each in their setup. But you said ECM was the primary weapon so I'm assuming not.
In other words you could have beaten them but they had "the correct setup(tm)" and you didn't like that.
Synapse - where to start? He was not fighting 4 specialist ECM ships as you intone in your post, he was fighting 4 combat cruisers. I don't think he should have been able to beat them, but at least he should be able to shoot back. If there had been 4 blackbirds there or even 1 or two that were ECMing him out I doubt he would have complained as much. I certainly would not care then. But being jammed by ships like the rupture or Rax or something with only 3 mids may just mean that the module they are using to replace speed aka a AB or MWD is a multispec or a ECM module of some kind.
If that does not seem like a module is overpowered then I don't know what would. Should a HAC be able to fight 4 v 1 and win? not all the time, depending on your setup and the 4 ships that it is fighting, should it be able to fight back against non-EW specced ships? I think so.
Something needs to be changed about ECM, it solopwns every other type of special warfare, like dampners, target painters or tracking disruptors. Even on something like the Bellicose(that has a target painting bonus) I would still rather fit ECM than a target painter cause I know that the target is not going to be able to fight back when he is jammed, at all. Dampners may make it hard to target out to your full range or increase the time it takes you to target, but at least the counter module works to combat that affect. Tracking disruptors can be countered by tracking computers, target painters don't really need to be countered because they are garbage TBH. ECM works an insane percentage of the time to make your ship wholly useless. Unless your flying a ship with 4-7 missile launchers fitted WITH FoF or a drone ship and your lucky enough to launch your drones and lock before your jammed out, or your drones just go off and do their own thing, maybe taking out one ship.
and another thing... FoF missiles don't work wonders against jamming, sure they might take out one ship then each launcher starts shooting at a different ship each, none of your damage adds up, and you still die. so basically why are missiles the only ones that can fire while jammed? what about FoF guns or a FoF module or something? or just ECCM that works either way. Maybe even both.
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Locke DieDrake
Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.07.15 18:30:00 -
[88]
The tournament is supposed to be a fair fight.
The rest of the game is not.
ECM may not be "fair" but I don't really see a HAC pilot coming 1v1 against my dictor as fair either. Too bad I was actually AFK when this happened or I would have jammed the **** out of him. *grumblestupidss* ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________ |
Naichi
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.16 02:38:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Lifewire I think the old ECM system was better
Agree, the pointbased Ecm was great. You needed 1 ship to jam another singel ship. Bring that back and have a slight % chance to be able to jam with lower points and that raises a bit how closer you are to actualy jam the ship. ___________________________________________________
'Everytime a miner kills a roid.. we kill a miner' |
Ikaru Otoni
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.16 09:28:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Dumus
<... random whiny diatribe...>[/i]
I know it sounds like I am just a sore loser. If thats what you want to think then there is not much I can do to stop you. But let me tell you what I believe is the truth about why I feel so sore. I had no fun whatsoever during this fight, I was jammed, triple webbed, scrammed, and being bumped from the gate. I could do NOTHING to fight back. In my opinion this just sucked, as does ECM jammers. I would seriously, if I was in charge, take them out of the game.
You had "no fun", because you could "do NOTHING" to fight back". Therefore, you would have taken them out of the game, because they ruined *your* fun, because it's all about how *you* feel about the game, of course.
You, a VETO member, whining about how unfair it is to be 'ganked' by a group of 'noobs' that happened to know what they were doing, and beat you fair and square.
How does it feel to be on the receiving end for a change?
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Ikaru Otoni
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.16 09:36:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Locke DieDrake The tournament is supposed to be a fair fight.
The rest of the game is not.
ECM may not be "fair" but I don't really see a HAC pilot coming 1v1 against my dictor as fair either. Too bad I was actually AFK when this happened or I would have jammed the **** out of him. *grumblestupidss*
I don't think the no-EW tournament rule is not so much about fairness but about not having the matches last forever and becoming a borefest. Let's face it, if EW was allowed, every team would have a T2 jamming ship (or more), and possible multispectrals in 3 out of the 4 other players.
This would mean that the majority of the time would be spent in the jam/lock/jam/failed-jam/lock/jam cycle and so on. Who would want to watch a match that would last forever with minimal action?
EW is not over-powered, the same way WCS are not overpowered. There are ways to override the effects, which you have the option to use, or not. Stop whining about how a module is overpowered because someone else used it to taint your cornflakes; it's not like you're forbidden to do it right back.
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Vishnej
Demonic Retribution
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Posted - 2006.07.16 10:17:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Vishnej on 16/07/2006 10:20:54 IMO, they're a valid part of the game, they're just slightly too powerful. I would enjoy having countermeasures that were worth a damn (huge boost), but it would make the game too rock/paper/scissors. The boost they got on the june 20 static update was enough.
The removal from the tournament was because of both factors - it's a spectator sport, and it's too versatile right now. ECM takes the place of warp core stabs, sensor damper, tracking disruptor, tanking, ECCM, everything contained within in one module.
My solution is a simple blanket nerf - reduce all ECM strength by 25%. A nerf of that sort would improve the above mentioned modules by comparison to the point where it's not obvious whether to fit out that Raven with 2 more extenders or 2 multispecs, or even 2 tracking disruptors. ECM would remain viable on both ECM and non-ECM ships, while not becoming 'the only reason people want midslots' on non-tackling ships.
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Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.07.16 12:26:00 -
[93]
The best solution for ECM are ECCM. Drones, smartbombs and FoF missiles are unaffected by jamming. Jammers also suck up a lot of cap leaving the ECM ship vulnerable to Nos.
In my opinion they are fine, they just force you to fight outside the old tank / gank paradigm a little. Yes I use ECM, I also face others who use it on a regular basis.
>> RECRUITING << |
Rexthor Hammerfists
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.07.16 12:31:00 -
[94]
im lazy, so:
i think the biggest problem with ecm isnt that the dedicated ships are overwhelming,
its that every ship fits one, and threy can use it very effective.
to make it short: id suggest to make ecm, damps everything alot less effective in general, but give the dedicated ships a bigger bonus o that the ecm works like now on those ships.
that would stop most of the ecm stupidness that is goin on atm.
i also would like to have it less mindless, dunno how, cause flying scorps is kinda boring atm, and having to specialise in it a bit mroe would b nice too.
- Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.
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Dumus
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.16 12:54:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Ikaru Otoni You had "no fun", because you could "do NOTHING" to fight back". Therefore, you would have taken them out of the game, because they ruined *your* fun, because it's all about how *you* feel about the game, of course.
You, a VETO member, whining about how unfair it is to be 'ganked' by a group of 'noobs' that happened to know what they were doing, and beat you fair and square.
How does it feel to be on the receiving end for a change?
ooooh look a troll. Get back under your bridge.
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Claria Icenia
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Posted - 2006.07.16 13:37:00 -
[96]
*skips loads of posts*
(knows the OP was being tongue in cheek with his original post, and I know that it can be frustrating!)
To people who don't like ECM - Stop whining.
I like ECM, why? Because its saved my backside more than once when I've been engaged by a ship vastly superior to mine. Its made them disengage because they're taking damage and I'm not; and its allowed me to make my escape because hanging around for a fight would have been the stupid thing to do.
Look, seriously - you get jammed and can't engage - thats your problem; I suggest you run and don't look back - can't run because your webbed and scrambled?? Oh. Looks like your gonna die. Welcome to your new body.
If I want to take on a vessel that I think is better than mine - I'm going to do my best to jam them up, web them, scramble them, suck their cap dry and turn their ship into a big metal coffin. I don't want a fair fight, I don't want them shooting back. I want them dead. Quickly.
But then I don't fight for sport, I fight for the interests of my Corp, which I imagine changes my outlook on these issues!
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Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2006.07.16 13:41:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 16/07/2006 13:42:54
Originally by: Vishnej [...] and it's too versatile right now. ECM takes the place of warp core stabs, sensor damper, tracking disruptor, tanking, ECCM, everything contained within in one module.
My solution is a simple blanket nerf - reduce all ECM strength by 25%. A nerf of that sort would improve the above mentioned modules by comparison to the point where it's not obvious whether to fit out that Raven with 2 more extenders or 2 multispecs, or even 2 tracking disruptors. ECM would remain viable on both ECM and non-ECM ships, while not becoming 'the only reason people want midslots' on non-tackling ships.
It's a fairly typical line of reasoning, but what I don't understand is how the solution does adress the problem as described.
ECM is too versatile because too many mods need a lock; decreasing jamming chance will not adress versatility, just average effectiveness of the mod. But versatile mods very uneffective in average aren't generally worth the fitting.
It would make much more sense to make jamming only disable a kind of modules, and not any kind of module requiring a lock; specialized ECM would only have a chance to prevent activation of all EW modules for one variation, all turrets for another kind, all launchers for a third type of ECM, all drone communications for a fourth... In this way, ECM becomes more specialized and we don't have to cope too much with luck and excessive versatility, without making setups too predictable either.
NB.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.16 13:48:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Naughty Boy Edited by: Naughty Boy on 16/07/2006 13:42:54
Originally by: Vishnej [...] and it's too versatile right now. ECM takes the place of warp core stabs, sensor damper, tracking disruptor, tanking, ECCM, everything contained within in one module.
My solution is a simple blanket nerf - reduce all ECM strength by 25%. A nerf of that sort would improve the above mentioned modules by comparison to the point where it's not obvious whether to fit out that Raven with 2 more extenders or 2 multispecs, or even 2 tracking disruptors. ECM would remain viable on both ECM and non-ECM ships, while not becoming 'the only reason people want midslots' on non-tackling ships.
It's a fairly typical line of reasoning, but what I don't understand is how the solution does adress the problem as described.
ECM is too versatile because too many mods need a lock; decreasing jamming chance will not adress versatility, just average effectiveness of the mod. But versatile mods very uneffective in average aren't generally worth the fitting.
It would make much more sense to make jamming only disable a kind of modules, and not any kind of module requiring a lock; specialized ECM would only have a chance to prevent activation of all EW modules for one variation, all turrets for another kind, all launchers for a third type of ECM, all drone communications for a fourth... In this way, ECM becomes more specialized and we don't have to cope too much with luck and excessive versatility, without making setups too predictable either.
NB.
Yeah, the whole system could use a rework, but personally i just want them to do a quick fix of everybody having multispectrals on their ship these days. I think i probably get jammed in almost every fight im in. It kills the fun of going down shooting and any excitement you may have before the fight. Its just like "ah he had a jammer, ok, better luck next time".
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Noriath
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Posted - 2006.07.16 13:52:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists im lazy, so: id suggest to make ecm, damps everything alot less effective in general, but give the dedicated ships a bigger bonus o that the ecm works like now on those ships.
That's a total load of bull, sorry. Dedicated EW ships already are too powerful for comfort. Scorpion is the only battleship in existence that can affect a 240km fleetbattle without a single tech 2 module fittet! No tech 1 ship in the game other then Caldari even get more then 5 medslots, so they can't fit ECM in large numbers to begin with. And the ECM ships get two bonuses to ECM, which is already overpowered, while every other ship with an EW bonus in the game only gets one.
ECM ships should be cut down to size, not improved even more, because they take a module that is already overpowered, and then have twice the slots to fit it in, twice the range, and increased effectivity on top of that.
As for ECM balancing, the main thing that has to be removed is the fact that they lock down the sensors instead of just breaking locks. Instead of not being able to target anything when hit by ECM it should just start a new target aquiring cycle right away, and the ECM itself gets a 30 second cooldown.
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Lochmar Fiendhiem
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Posted - 2006.07.16 14:54:00 -
[100]
Pirates whining about unfair game tactics... LOL!
just stick to gate camping industrials, noob ships and shuttles mate. They won't put up a struggle at all.
However to make a valid point, ECM Bursts work well at at least breaking a jammers lock, which could give you enough time to escape and re-asess the situation.
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Mr Filth
Shadow League
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Posted - 2006.07.16 15:26:00 -
[101]
There is nothing unfair about using ECM and im sure Dumus agree. The problem with ECM is, that it overwrites your ship-fitting AND your skill points. 9 mill SP in gunnery is awesome but what good is it if you cant shoot ?. Atm, ECM is nothing but a joke and has become a module similar to a warpscrambler; "every ship needs to fit one to pvp". It ruins the excitement of pvp where your opponent is shooting and you are shooting back - keeping track of your tank and you start getting nervous cause he deals out more damage than you expected. You still think the chance of you winning is alive so you continue the fight, have a laugh and eventually say "good fight". With ECM on every ship the excitement is gone. first to get jammed looses, regardless of anything else. I did however love the old system cause when you saw a scorp or BB you knew that your arse was about to get jammed and you pretty much knew what you were up against. Now every ship is a jammer ship and its killing the game. Im on an eve break myself cause atm pvp is broken. Ill happily return when ecm is fixed - until then, have a nice summer.
oh and hey Dumus
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Dumus
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.16 21:09:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Dumus on 16/07/2006 21:11:04
Originally by: Mr Filth
oh and hey Dumus
He he, Hi there you filthy blighter how the devil are you?
Lochmar Fiendhiem and others, You do not know me and you do not know how pirates go about their business. You also do not know VETO and how we work. I do not, and neither does anyone else in my corp sit at gates camping all day. I don't snipe from 250km either. I use cruisers. Duramaller, sometimes a Sacriledge, sometimes a Pilgrim and very rarely an Apoc (hate flying BS's). I scan peeps in belts and sometimes catch them at gates and stations. I tank the sentries in my cruiser. I frequently go against the odds and love PvP, whether my target likes it or not, whether you like it or not. If peeps get it into their heads that this is a PvP game and if you travel to low sec you do so at the risk of losing what your flying in they would get on better in the game, and make friends with the pirates trying to rob them.
Now to all those thinking I am a whining pirate, My corpies will tell you that I am indeed a moaning old fart of 41 years young and they get sick of me whinging about this and that. I love moaning, and enjoy it immensely. But lets get one thing clear. On this issue I believe that ECM (jammers) are over powered and need fixing in some way. Yes taking it out completely is a flippant response from me because when I lose a ship to being perma jammed I moan and wail like and old woman. CCP want us all to have fun, an I win button brings no fun to the person pressing the button or the person taking the pain from the results. I have no issue with being beaten by 4 month old chars in tech 1 ships. As I stated in my posts They played me and suckered me into a trap, and fair play to them for it. I was the fool and could have escaped with relative ease. I didn't I chose to be greedy and take them on. They won, but I could have had some fun too had I not been perma-jammed. And I FIRMLY believe they would have had a sweeter victory if they had beaten me without the perma-jam they may have lost some of their ships but they would have beaten a vet with tech 1 kit. And thats how it should be. So pack up your trolls in you old kit bag and smile boys smile! ---------------------------
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ching'sta
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.16 21:28:00 -
[103]
The hole point of not being able to lock on to something is so lame heck its like spaceage in eve the firewalls on them ships should be uber.
Anyway its anyoing as hell i would be pleased to see them removed but its to incorporated in the game now its never gonna happen. Hasent ccp talk aboute some fix?
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Lord Gilberto
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Posted - 2006.07.16 22:12:00 -
[104]
/signed at nerfing ECM, and I was one of the noobs that killed you :). It is completely overpowered- we kill battleships and hacs daily without any losses completely because of ECM.
As long as they're overpowered though, we'll keep using them :P.
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Gilbert0
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Posted - 2006.07.16 22:13:00 -
[105]
whoOps thats me posted on an alt :(
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MellaRinn
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.07.17 01:18:00 -
[106]
bumping to maybe get that little flag on kieron's Forum Overview from one of the ISD \o/
also: @ last Dumus' post - I couldn't agree more :)
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.07.17 01:32:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Jim McGregor This doesnt in any way change the fact that a single multispectral is too powerful in combat. Sure there are anti-jamming modules, but giving up 2 low slots or 1 medium slot and still have 20-25% chance of getting target jammed for every multispectral you face... its just not worth it for most people. Chances are, you will still get jammed, and then you have also gimped your setup trying to prevent it.
I do understand your point though, but i dont agree with you that the current system is fine. Not in any way.
Excuse me, but how is that one ecm module more powerful than a warp scramber?
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DrKira
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Posted - 2006.07.17 06:27:00 -
[108]
I like the idea of ECM but it should have a debilitating effect like turret jammers, turret jammers (which i might add do NOTHING to missle boats, where ECM works on EVERYTHING) will make turrets less effective but not disfunctional, why doesnt ECM have similar effects such as reducing the number of target locks you can have instead of cancelling them all out, Of corse i think that all EW should work kinda like NOS, each item has a certain capacity (not literally like capacitor) and each EW effect has a debilitating effect on it, NOT complete PWNERSHIP of that. I really do like the idea of low damage setups being effective due to strategy over brute, but it is true, ECM should be optional not mandatory in PvP, just like turret jammers, or sensor dampenors. It is also true that there are mods that dont do ANYTHING right now, like multi sensor backup, that mod is POINTLESS it doesnt do anything that a racial sensor backup doesnt do for you, and Burst ECM is also worthless. I guess my suggestion is make ECM an effect that reduces not destroys the use of a ships abilites...
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MellaRinn
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.07.19 03:42:00 -
[109]
*bump*
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