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Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2006.07.01 12:40:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 01/07/2006 12:43:11 Indeed. I think its firmly established that the Bellicose sucks. Perhaps when they get that ship in order they will get the Minmatar Recons in order.
I hear a lot of people saying TP bonus sucks. Then in reply I hear a lot of people saying webbifier bonus is good. What does the goodness of one have to do with the suckage of the other?
I already use a TPII on my ships that CAN fight. Why should I waste a T2 ship for a 7.5% extra TP bonus?? SERIOUSLY, how many people fit rows and rows of tracking mods? I never heard of anybody stacking Tracking mods except Snipers which have nothing better to fit anyway.
And the agrument that this is a 'special' ship that you have to fly in some 'special' secretive manner to get any benefit from it ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle |
Stamm
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Posted - 2006.07.01 12:51:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Stamm on 01/07/2006 12:51:19
Originally by: Imhotep Khem Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 01/07/2006 12:43:11 Indeed. I think its firmly established that the Bellicose sucks. Perhaps when they get that ship in order they will get the Minmatar Recons in order.
I hear a lot of people saying TP bonus sucks. Then in reply I hear a lot of people saying webbifier bonus is good. What does the goodness of one have to do with the suckage of the other?
I already use a TPII on my ships that CAN fight. Why should I waste a T2 ship for a 7.5% extra TP bonus?? SERIOUSLY, how many people fit rows and rows of tracking mods? I never heard of anybody stacking Tracking mods except Snipers which have nothing better to fit anyway.
And the agrument that this is a 'special' ship that you have to fly in some 'special' secretive manner to get any benefit from it
No.
Let me put it this way.
What stops a turret ship hitting another ship? What stops missiles doing much damage to another ship?
Speed (transversal for the turrets) and signature radius.
What bonuses does the Huginn get?
Speed killing and sig boosting.
Bang, dead ships :)
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Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.07.01 13:06:00 -
[33]
currently i can get a huginn for 40 mill and a rapier for 60 mill, while a low price is a good thing, it does speak alot about its popularity
Target Panter bonus sucks, but i've accepted it. Unless minnie get as a whole a new racial ew (oh god plz) this bonus stays for good
i have other points to critizise tough
- hard to fit , after the munnin the hugin is the worst ship ship to fit ( rapier is oke)
- split weapon system with a bonus for each weaponsystem, this sucks bad, effectively its a wasted bonus compared to amarr/caldari recon, gallente one suffers same fate
- slot layout, huginn/rapier are made for shield tanking yet they only get 6 medslots like amarr, compared to 7 for caldari and 7!!?? for the Lachesis
- effectively you could say that the huginn has only 2 bonuses, one for web and 1 for its weapon
Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Soyemia
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Posted - 2006.07.01 14:41:00 -
[34]
LOL "it help killing ships" =P. It is far more useful to jam enemy and it is useless to enemy gang, while with painter, it can still damage to your gang. While it takes longter (ONLY MAYBE AS SMALL GUNS HIT BIGGER THAN IT SELF), so its far better to have rook / any other recon in gang. We need to get like 200% better eff to TP or get useful EW, you see from its price it is crap. Only ares and huginn are t2 ships thta are near same price of producing cost, what it tells? They suck. I hope that CCP answers here how TP:s are as good as other EW.
Proud member of fix. Hated on finnish channel. |
Stamm
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Posted - 2006.07.01 14:47:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Soyemia LOL "it help killing ships" =P. It is far more useful to jam enemy and it is useless to enemy gang, while with painter, it can still damage to your gang. While it takes longter (ONLY MAYBE AS SMALL GUNS HIT BIGGER THAN IT SELF), so its far better to have rook / any other recon in gang. We need to get like 200% better eff to TP or get useful EW, you see from its price it is crap. Only ares and huginn are t2 ships thta are near same price of producing cost, what it tells? They suck. I hope that CCP answers here how TP:s are as good as other EW.
You see from it's price people only buy ships if it gets them the final blow on the killmail.
Perhaps target painter bonuses need a little boost. Perhaps not.
But the ship itself is great, it gets lots of stuff killed.
What could help more in combat than the Huginn pilot saying on Vent 'Target MrDiemos, webbed and painted'. 5 seconds later dead deimos. Been there, seen it :)
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Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.07.01 15:03:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Stamm
You see from it's price people only buy ships if it gets them the final blow on the killmail.
Bull****, rook/falcon are by far not killmailgenerators, yet they rank top and sell at far higher prices
Originally by: Stamm
Perhaps target painter bonuses need a little boost. Perhaps not.
the module target painter itself is fine as it is, it just sucks as racial EW, even more so for mainly turret users (could argue for a boost of the TP bonus of the huginn, but thats not really a solution)
Originally by: Stamm
But the ship itself is great, it gets lots of stuff killed.
you contradict yourself, first you state if its not a killmailgenerator it wont sell, now you say otherwise, the webbing is nice and huginn is far from useless but that does not make it a great ship
Originally by: Stamm
What could help more in combat than the Huginn pilot saying on Vent 'Target MrDiemos, webbed and painted'. 5 seconds later dead deimos. Been there, seen it :)
as opposed to Mr Rook, " got em all jammed" take down the diemos first, which dies in 6 secs instead 5 sec but now without firing back
Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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6Bagheera9
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Posted - 2006.07.01 15:07:00 -
[37]
Perhaps the tp bonus could use some boosting, but as is the Huggin is still the ultimate inty/frig killer.
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Stamm
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Posted - 2006.07.01 15:09:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Tiuwaz
Originally by: Stamm
You see from it's price people only buy ships if it gets them the final blow on the killmail.
Bull****, rook/falcon are by far not killmailgenerators, yet they rank top and sell at far higher prices
Originally by: Stamm
Perhaps target painter bonuses need a little boost. Perhaps not.
the module target painter itself is fine as it is, it just sucks as racial EW, even more so for mainly turret users (could argue for a boost of the TP bonus of the huginn, but thats not really a solution)
Originally by: Stamm
But the ship itself is great, it gets lots of stuff killed.
you contradict yourself, first you state if its not a killmailgenerator it wont sell, now you say otherwise, the webbing is nice and huginn is far from useless but that does not make it a great ship
Originally by: Stamm
What could help more in combat than the Huginn pilot saying on Vent 'Target MrDiemos, webbed and painted'. 5 seconds later dead deimos. Been there, seen it :)
as opposed to Mr Rook, " got em all jammed" take down the diemos first, which dies in 6 secs instead 5 sec but now without firing back
I didn't contradict myself at all.
I said it gets stuff killed, as opposed to it kills stuff.
As for the Deimos example, jam it all you like, but you're not going to get BSs hitting it or targetting it fast. The Huginn gets it killed fast. Jamming just puts it aside for a while (and jam a ship for long and it's likely to warp off).
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Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.07.01 15:19:00 -
[39]
fair enough for the get stuff killed
webbing doesnt equal scrambling so it can warp away just aswell as when its jammed (can web up to 40 km but only 20km scramblers, not to mention that huginn wont have any room to fit scramblers (max 1))
2 inties with a web have same effect + scramble the deimos (once transversal is eliminiated, BS guns have little trouble hitting hacs)
Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Stamm
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Posted - 2006.07.01 15:28:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Tiuwaz fair enough for the get stuff killed
webbing doesnt equal scrambling so it can warp away just aswell as when its jammed (can web up to 40 km but only 20km scramblers, not to mention that huginn wont have any room to fit scramblers (max 1))
2 inties with a web have same effect + scramble the deimos (once transversal is eliminiated, BS guns have little trouble hitting hacs)
You'd be surprised how much faster a Huginn is at webbing something than an interceptor. Interceptors are always on the move, and they have to turn around and start moving towards something, then get within 10KM and hit the web button. The Huggin starts targetting, hits the web button and the target is webbed. It's really a lot faster.
As for targets being able to warp away... if you double web something (Huginns really should fit 2), then assuming they were going at speed to start with, you've just knocked two zeroes off their top speed. I don't know if you've noticed but you can't warp if you're going too fast, even if you are aligned. The Diemos would have to slow right down to 12 m/s, turn around, and then accelerate a bit before it could get away. Assuming you have a heavy hitter in the gang (that'll be me with the pulses :P) then by that time the Deimos is splattered all over the place.
Maybe people haven't tried Huginns much, but I suggest they fit one out and try it in a small gang or gatecamp.
Scramblers aren't always better than webbers anyway, couple of reasons. No use scrambling something if it's shooting you in the face and going to kill you. In addition interdictors are getting more and more common, they're making it much easier to stop people warping off, and putting the emphasis more on stopping people getting out of the bubble.
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Ernest Graefenberg
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Posted - 2006.07.01 15:35:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Stamm
What could help more in combat than the Huginn pilot saying on Vent 'Target MrDiemos, webbed and painted'. 5 seconds later dead deimos. Been there, seen it :)
Replace Deimos with "Vagabond" and you've got the idea. Especially obnoxious with the Rapier, where the Vagabond pilot has 6 seconds to warp or die without being able to scan beforehand. All recons have way over-the-top gang abilities in my oppinion, with the exception of the Arazu/Lachesis (which are by no means bad, but has the most situational T2 bonus).
Webrange bonuses should really not exist. They're almost the nail in the coffin of mobility-based engagements, and for that matter they aid tremendously in stopping medium/large ships from MWDing back to the gate after they jump into a camp. Massive gank-enablers all around.
Those qualities, while majorly imbalanced and fun-murdering, are also mean they're really, really effective ships. Anyone citing the TP bonus as a reason for them being bad has completely missed out on their point. Target painters are entirely optional, often times you're better off saving those slots for doublewebs/sensorboosters/shieldtank/ecm or whatever.
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Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.07.01 15:44:00 -
[42]
the webbing bonus is great, wont argue about that, but the huginn still is lacking
it has a few issues i listed earlier in the thread
- it effectively has only 2 bonuses : 1) 2x rof for split weapon system, this sucks, lachesis suffers the same 2) Target Painterbonus isnt that great, and on a doublewebbed target its benefit is marginal at best
- huginn is a shieldtanker but has same amount of medslots like curse and even less midslots than lgallente (this is messed up :/)
- if i have to put up with a split weaponsystem, then i should be able to do some nice fitting atleast, but huginn is a very hard to fit and in 99% of the cases you need 1-2 fitting mods for pg (and i am not even fitting the top tier weaponsystems here)
Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Stamm
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Posted - 2006.07.01 16:03:00 -
[43]
Well, it's not alone in the split weapon system, and I don't think it's in any way unique. There's a fair few Amarr ships that have that flaw.
I think it's more the case that split weapon systems are bust, than the Huginn is bust.
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Jerick Ludhowe
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Posted - 2006.07.01 21:07:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Tiuwaz
2) Target Painterbonus isnt that great, and on a doublewebbed target its benefit is marginal at best
Fit some furry heavy missles and watch stuff explode.
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Lord Violent
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Posted - 2006.07.01 22:13:00 -
[45]
The main point has been missed here, the huggin pwns all other ships for one simple reason ... it has flappy wings.
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Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2006.07.01 22:13:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe
Fit some furry heavy missles and watch stuff explode.
So then, Minmatar gets a bonus that benefits Caldari? Our enemy? ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle |
Soyemia
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Posted - 2006.07.06 16:42:00 -
[47]
bumb sp devs see.
Proud member of fix. Hated on finnish channel. |
Stamm
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Posted - 2006.07.06 16:53:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Soyemia bumb sp devs see.
The devs see what? It's a great ship? Or that everybody loves the flappy ears?
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Forsch
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Posted - 2006.07.06 17:12:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Soyemia Solution; GIve matari recons offensive EW, TP:s suck you all know it, so matari recons suck.
First they cry about not having a defensive EW, now they want offensive EW... Do you guys even know what you want (besides owning all others)?
Forsch Defender of the empire
More love for side factions! |
Labinstein Labor
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Posted - 2006.07.06 18:50:00 -
[50]
whine more n00b
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Isonkon Serikain
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Posted - 2006.07.06 19:32:00 -
[51]
I have some killer uses for my huginn... I'm glad few people see its worth... It keeps the prices down. Ison's notches more notches |
Stamm
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Posted - 2006.07.06 19:57:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Isonkon Serikain I have some killer uses for my huginn... I'm glad few people see its worth... It keeps the prices down.
They see it as not worth anything since it's worse than a Stababond for solo PvP, and in gangs it gets things killed, but they don't get the final blow on the killmail.
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Still Hart
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Posted - 2006.07.06 22:30:00 -
[53]
Since I've been really getting into interceptors, I've been learning the joys of tackling for a team. It's very fun knowing that all those kills in the last hour are because YOU tackled them so damage dealers could pummel em. The fact is, without people like me tackling, all the sub-uber BS and cruiser pilots aren't killing much of anything.
That being said, I'm really looking forward to getting into a recon ship. The huggin and the rapier have some VERY useful builds for tackling. So what if you can't solo as well as other recons? I'm in a corp so I have people to fly around with. I can concentrate on tackling skills so I don't have to worry about T2 guns which take forever to train. I will always be useful in a gang with a tackler/scout like the rapier. I will be on every killmail even if I don't get them all.
The fact is, like others have stated, if you play to its strengths (instead of *****ing about its weaknesses) it's a SWEET ship regardless of how green the grass is on the other side. Get a team together that takes advantages of its strengths and you will be kicking ass in no time.
And for my last point, if you think the pilgrim is so uber, spend the damn 4 weeks to train Amarr cruiser 5 and get your own. I'm fine with my Minmatar recons being dirt cheap, TYVM.
_____________________
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Shamis Orzoz
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Posted - 2006.07.06 23:38:00 -
[54]
Minnie recons server a purpose.
But they do SUCK for solo play. Which is kinda lame.
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McScruff
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Posted - 2006.07.07 01:19:00 -
[55]
Edited by: McScruff on 07/07/2006 01:20:37
Let us examine the above post.
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Minnie recons server a purpose.
But they do SUCK for solo play. Which is kinda lame.
The name of the ship type says it all. Its a freeking RECON ship. Its not suposed to be good solo.
Edit: Minmatar Recons suck. I will continue to say this untill such time as i have bought one and no longer need the prices to be low. After that my opinion may (almost definately) change ______________________________________
Warning: May contain traces of sarcasm |
Kyguard
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Posted - 2006.07.07 03:50:00 -
[56]
Minnie recons are fine. They just require more use of you know that thing inside your head.. yeah a brain!
They might not be able to kill tanks like a pilgrim, but they have their uses in group and solo play. They're not crap. ===
God is on the side with the best arti |
Forsch
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Posted - 2006.07.07 06:21:00 -
[57]
wow, suddenly it's a problem if a ship can't solo. Ever checked out the amarr ships? Not even half of them can solo!
Forsch Defender of the empire
More love for side factions! |
Soyemia
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Posted - 2006.07.07 07:08:00 -
[58]
It isint a prob that thay cant solo, its a problem that other recons beat em in 95% of situations, so you'll be almoust every time better off in any other recons. And you cant tacjle really with it, 40km web but 20km scram...
We need EW that stops enemy, (TD, ECM, NOS, S DAMP) but not just help you hitting (TP). And TP is underpowered anyway, so we need new EW or INSANE bonus like 200% per level so you can paint inty so u hit it with torps, THEN it could be good.
Proud member of fix. Hated on finnish channel. |
Tachy
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Posted - 2006.07.07 07:19:00 -
[59]
With those few Amarrians defending the power of the Minmatar Recon cruisers, why don't their corps and alliances buy them in bulk?
The market pretty clearly shows that they don't.
They're pretty good in doing L2 combat missions with their huge locking range and T2 weapons and ammo.
This thread just needed some positive vibes from a Minmatar Recon pilot. --*=*=*--
Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment. |
RoMUF
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Posted - 2006.07.07 09:36:00 -
[60]
Imo they should double all the stats on TP's or give us an extra slot for one.
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