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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 31 post(s) |
Etara Silverblade
Cynosural Edge Yulai Federation
23
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Posted - 2014.07.18 20:27:00 -
[361] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq?
If the choice has to be made then the first one (3-5% all jobs time reduction) but you have to promise to fix this in the next patch and give us back a skill that is more like the original. |
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
39
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Posted - 2014.07.18 20:37:00 -
[362] - Quote
Etara Silverblade wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq? If the choice has to be made then the first one (3-5% all jobs time reduction) but you have to promise to fix this in the next patch and give us back a skill that is more like the original. The original (ME) was too strong. Having a weaker skill is fine, just so long as it's actually useful for everyone, and not just the most active manufacturers. Material Efficiency had to go, there's no two ways to look at that, and having a skill put back in that's "like the original" would make it too strong, as well. |
Ranamar
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
65
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Posted - 2014.07.18 21:08:00 -
[363] - Quote
I was pushing for fee reduction earlier, but I'd take a time bonus on all S&I jobs as well. It'd particularly benefit people who went full everything S&I on one character which, well, I didn't, but it would definitely be both less mandatory than the material skill (which is important) and still useful. I haven't trained Rapid Firing to V, for example, but I can see where its last 3% could be useful.
On the other hand, I'm not keen on the idea of increasing the rank but leaving the SP constant. That would bother me for reasons I'm not sure I can articulate well. |
Meytal
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
470
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Posted - 2014.07.18 21:32:00 -
[364] - Quote
The problem is that you want to take a skill that was mandatory and very powerful and turn it into something insignificant. It's just not going to work, and you're not going to make people happy. It's a pretty crap move on your part, really, and you know it. You also seem hell-bent on propping up nullsec industry with this skill, which is also a crap move though forgiveable if you consider the makeup of the CSM.
If you don't want to refund, for whatever reason it is -- and none of the explanations given have any chance of actually holding water -- then you need to do something you don't want to do: make this a mandatory skill but with lesser impact. Not only should it open the gateway to more skills as in your "#2 option", but it should also give the players something extra as well.
Call it Industry Specialization (3x), and let it reduce installation costs by 5% per level. It would be more useful to more customers than a time bonus would, since it helps hisec more than it helps nullsec (instead of the other way around). It can give people a little more option in deciding how far to move away from Jita vs the cost of training this skill; those who trained it early would be able to absorb the costs of being closer to Jita more than someone without it. You cold also choose to ignore this skill and relocate your industry to a quiet, backwater system.
Then add skills (8x ?) that further reduce various industry times (Copy, Invention, Reverse Engineering, Manufacturing, ME Research, TE Research), skills that increase effectiveness of teams in varying ways, skills that reduce team costs ... all reductions should be some minor-but-not-insignificant amount that require this Industry Specialization skill at level 5.
These would be specialisation skills; you want them all, but you only have reason to train for the aspects of industry that you actually use.
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TigerXtrm
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
811
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Posted - 2014.07.18 22:29:00 -
[365] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq?
Is the reduction in job cost completely off the table now? Because that's the kind of thing you'd expect there to be a skill for honestly.
But between those two choices I'd pick the additional skills. More ways to specialize in this game is always good IMO (without creating a skill tree the size of Texas). My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things! |
Shin Dari
Covert Brigade
48
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Posted - 2014.07.18 23:10:00 -
[366] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq? Now you are asking a hard question. I see it as such, the 3-5% all jobs time reduction is the minimal that needs to be done.
The additional specialism skills (such as Facility Efficiency, Industrial Relations, etc) with Industry or Advanced Industry as prereq must also be done, but that can wait for next month or next release. You will need the feedback from the community and the emergent results from Crius to make proper decision for the industrial skill tree. You should make F&I tread for this next week. |
Sjaandi HyShan
EVE University Ivy League
1
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Posted - 2014.07.19 00:07:00 -
[367] - Quote
- If I had to pick one, I'd go with the TE bonus instead of the new skills: we already have a lot of skills prereqs, and we already have skills like ship construction that give no benefit per level other than unlocking ships at arbitrary levels (and often with gaps in-between). I might be ok with it if you also did a production skill revamp and made this skill flow better with those (because let's face it, the tieracide of the production skills hasn't happened yet).
- You might take a look at the accelerator thing. I don't know if it would work, but it would be nice for things that have many prereqs in one remap, but take another to realize (like Light Interdictors, all the prereqs take Int/Mem, except for racial destroyer V. Allowing the train for Destroyer V at max speed would be great for those training up the Int/Mem requirements for it.
- Another thought, what if we could pay for rush jobs, and this would reduce the cost of that? That way, if we needed components for a ship quicker, or were trying to beat a competitor, we could pay an "overtime" fee to our workers, and this skill would reduce the cost of that. This would be more in the spirit of providing more diversity and not using SP as the primary factor in succeeding in Industry.
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Shiloh Templeton
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
137
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Posted - 2014.07.19 00:52:00 -
[368] - Quote
I'd vote for option 2 -- under the assumption that the specialization skills would be desirable.
As an aside: ME 5 will no longer be a requirement, but haven't most manufacturers recouped their time investment from having ME 5 for the last X years?
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Manfred Hideous
TOHOKU 9.0
72
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Posted - 2014.07.19 01:14:00 -
[369] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq?
Are we back to this? Part time producers don't get much from this skill. A reduction in job cost or an additional slot per level might be good but if the time reduction is pushed, I'd hope you give us the ability to move our SP elsewhere. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
85
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Posted - 2014.07.19 01:15:00 -
[370] - Quote
Shiloh Templeton wrote:I'd vote for option 2 -- under the assumption that the specialization skills would be desirable.
As an aside: ME 5 will no longer be a requirement, but haven't most manufacturers recouped their time investment from having ME 5 for the last X years?
What if i finished training a capital alt last week?? |
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Sjaandi HyShan
EVE University Ivy League
1
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Posted - 2014.07.19 01:28:00 -
[371] - Quote
Shiloh Templeton wrote:I'd vote for option 2 -- under the assumption that the specialization skills would be desirable.
As an aside: ME 5 will no longer be a requirement, but haven't most manufacturers recouped their time investment from having ME 5 for the last X years?
If you count a grand total of 10 production jobs and a month of having it, sure. Remember, there are a lot of new players to the game too. 750K experience is a lot to me ATM. In 3 years, maybe not too much. |
Sjaandi HyShan
EVE University Ivy League
1
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Posted - 2014.07.19 01:34:00 -
[372] - Quote
Manfred Hideous wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq? Are we back to this? Part time producers don't get much from this skill. A reduction in job cost or an additional slot per level might be good but if the time reduction is pushed, I'd hope you give us the ability to move our SP elsewhere.
Well, with the changes it would save money from less time installed, and don't forget, manufacturing is not the bottleneck. It's research, invention, copying. It's much easier to keep those research slots filled up 24/7 then production, since production hardly takes any time at all (I can produce a BS in 3 hours, but researching one ME of a frigate takes over a day). |
Kuroi Aurgnet
Celestial Phoenix Industries
15
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Posted - 2014.07.19 02:01:00 -
[373] - Quote
--TL;DR at bottom--
Okay, so.... I'm not going to lie- reading this thread has been as painful as removing teeth.
Lets have a small summation here:
CCP made a mistake. Oops. Mistakes happen. But this was a pretty big mistake and should never happen again.
Lots of hot air from all sides. People who are angry that something that they spent tons of time training has become invalid- this is by far not the first time it has happened (and frankly it SHOULDN'T EVER HAPPEN, but sometimes choices are made that the consequences arent clear until its too late- i.e. designing the skills this way), and it probably won't be the last time. At the same time we have a ton of people snapping at them saying "grow up and get over it". None of this is helping the problem at hand. We ALL want eve to be a good experience for everyone- so strive for that shall we?
Greyscale has gone from being kinda.... not so here on the issue to being actively in this thread. Hopefully the latter becomes the norm because I went from unimpressed to impressed as he started really actively talking to players. It was a bit late, truthfully- this kind of interaction should be the NORM with a game this big- but I really appreciate the effort he has begun to put into this thread. So thank you.
NOW, on to the meat and bones- as someone who joined this game several years ago on the premise of industry (shocker, aint it?), I too think that the 1% time reduction is a bit underwhelming (read: frankly ridiculous) . While I don't understand the issue with "mandatory skills" as there are plenty of skills that do a lot for players in many departments and are mandatory to use well (thankfully most of them that are left are 1x skills which is a lot more acceptable), I do understand that the ME skill was a bit.... powerful. That being said, here's what I personally think would be best:
1. Keep it as a ME based skill, lower the percentage per level to around 1%. sure, "waste" as a mechanic is being removed, but iirc you are bumping up build materials to compensate- meaning that you aren't ACTUALLY removing waste. you are just re-branding it as the norm. So, a small materials bonus wouldnt be that ridiculous because it wouldnt be changing too much from what the system currently is, in my honest opinion. I know this mechanic is changed up with teams- but that's what happens when you randomly introduce new mechanics. But a ME based skill FEELS the best, even if the amount is a bit more marginal. EVERYONE benefits from it in a completely balanced way- whether they only manufacture a few things here or there, or manufacture EVERY DAY- a materials decrease is the most tangible benefit, so why remove it. just tone it down.
2. If you are REALLY adamantly against it- then the next best idea is the aforementioned idea of changing industry and this new "advanced industry" to affect install costs of ALL jobs, and then later on adding skills (or modifying the existing ones) to specialize in each field. While this would still be a small kick in the shins for all of us industrial players who trained ME5 (which is basically EVERY serious industrialist)- this is a buff to the industry skill and if you make the advanced version at least 3-5%, then it would almost compensate for the change- especially if you add in some new ways to further drive down costs (especially if theyre just buffing some of the old skills that are only borderline useful).
Remember that industry is a REALLY delicate and important part of eve- and as much as there are some people who wouldnt like to admit it, industry is just as as important as PvP if not more. Those ships and ammo and drones and modules etc dont just build themselves. So be careful on this CCP. We all want to give you our trust- but lately we've been blindsided a lot and we're all a bit confused and hurting from the wave of changes that many of us still aren't truly prepared for (the details of which have been changing almost every week). So lets just all work together on getting this done ASAP =) I want to continue to have faith in the longevity of this game, and the work of the devs- lets make that happen! =)
--TL;DR--
summary of thread, personal opinion agreeing with general consensus of 1% being underwhelming. two proposed ideas: keep ME just nerf percentages, or change industry and advanced industry to buff costs for all jobs- not just manufacturing. then add specialization capabilities to further reduce costs (as the new cost system kinda really sucks in all honesty.)
Just that hint of cynicism the world needs now and then. |
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
111
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 04:30:00 -
[374] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq?
I'd put my vote on the all jobtime reduction. |
Orin Solette
Omamori Himari Pandora Hearts
6
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Posted - 2014.07.19 04:44:00 -
[375] - Quote
I was training a manufacturing alt. Then the dev blogs got released.
I sure wish I didn't waste that plex on something I could've done almost just as good with a fresh toon.
Thanks for the bait and switch I guess. |
Chris Winter
Winters Are Coming
517
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Posted - 2014.07.19 04:55:00 -
[376] - Quote
People who are saying that install cost is based on job run time...what? In Crius I thought job install cost was going to be based on the market value of the materials?
I said it before in the thread and it got ignored, I'll say it again.
The skill should reduce the job install cost by 25 or 50% total at level 5. This ends up being a less significant improvement than the ME skill (up to something like 7% in very busy systems) and it's not mandatory since people without the skill can save even more than that by moving to a different, less busy system.
It's a win-win. The skill continues to do kind of the same thing as no (reduce cost of manufacturing), is fairly powerful but nowhere near as powerful as the current iteration, and isn't mandatory. |
Decarthado Aurgnet
Imperial Combat Engineers Empire of Arcadia
11
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Posted - 2014.07.19 05:09:00 -
[377] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:People who are saying that install cost is based on job run time...what? In Crius I thought job install cost was going to be based on the market value of the materials?
I said it before in the thread and it got ignored, I'll say it again.
The skill should reduce the job install cost by 25 or 50% total at level 5. This ends up being a less significant improvement than the ME skill (up to something like 7% in very busy systems) and it's not mandatory since people without the skill can save even more than that by moving to a different, less busy system.
It's a win-win. The skill continues to do kind of the same thing as no (reduce cost of manufacturing), is fairly powerful but nowhere near as powerful as the current iteration, and isn't mandatory.
This kind of thing is what I was thinking when I suggested somewhere between 5% and 10% per level job cost reduction. I didn't have the actual savings laid out, so it's nice that somebody does. It'd help people in nullsec most, but the blocs are already rich as hell so that part doesn't really matter much to me. What this kind of thinking *does* do is encourage people to feel more free to manufacture closer to hubs and would create some potential for a little emergent gameplay where those who choose not to learn it could actually benefit MORE than those who do learn the skill by going into nowhere to make their products because they're willing to travel significantly longer distances, maybe even collecting their entire infrastructure and moving it from time to time so they can save a couple %. |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
8
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Posted - 2014.07.19 06:01:00 -
[378] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:People who are saying that install cost is based on job run time...what? In Crius I thought job install cost was going to be based on the market value of the materials?
I said it before in the thread and it got ignored, I'll say it again.
The skill should reduce the job install cost by 25 or 50% total at level 5. This ends up being a less significant improvement than the ME skill (up to something like 7% in very busy systems) and it's not mandatory since people without the skill can save even more than that by moving to a different, less busy system.
It's a win-win. The skill continues to do kind of the same thing as no (reduce cost of manufacturing), is fairly powerful but nowhere near as powerful as the current iteration, and isn't mandatory.
Yeah, unfortunately it will do next to nothing for pilots who currently do their manufacturing in w-space. But I guess I'm in the minority. That's why I proposed a Cerebral Accelerator type solution (in lieu of an SP refund). |
Khiluale Zotakibe
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2014.07.19 06:02:00 -
[379] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq?
I would say 5% per level would be nice. But I wouldn't exclude additional skills having this one as prerequisite.
One idea for the new skills would time reductions that only affect specific products (something like gun assembly expertise or (Jump) freighter construction management). These would allow for serious producers to specialize on specific market segments through mass production.
(I would like to see skills that would increase the number of lines per character further but I do understand why that wouldn't be desirable)
On the topic of jump freighters, I noticed that with the changes the JF BPCs invented using accelerant decryptors went from 15 days build time to 25 days. Before Crius there was the option of sacrificing some margin (read 30% to 60% depending on market fluctuations) per ship to be able to almost double the monthly production and reduce the risk of said market fluctuations. Is this something that is going to be addressed in the invention changes? If not, are you planning on addressing to this situations? ( I know this is a bit off topic but it would be interesting to have some light shed over this). |
iovi Hashur
Genyosha Unlimited
4
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Posted - 2014.07.19 08:34:00 -
[380] - Quote
wow really. Tbh i hadn't read any news the last 2-3 weeks but that post was unexpected. As someone stated above, eve time = sp. So i get it if CCP wants to stop this whole sp reimbursement thing but tbh I wouldn't have spend 11 days in that at all if it was any different skill.
With the crius, what i understand so far is that either you are a big time industrialist so you can make deals with others ang get teams on your area often, or you will have to move your setups (POSes etc) every once in a while. Mat efficiency was the skill that gave ppl like me a chance to build something small scale, even without having access to researched BPOs.
Now i get it you don't wanna give sp back, but seriously i expect to get a skill of the same importance. time aint important for me in manufacturing. Nor i wanna manufacture 24/7. That's it I am NOT interested in 24/7 production.
What i can propose is if you wanna make the skill about time efficiency, then lower its rank and don't give me the rest sp as reimbursement. Just add more skills and put them there in a next update. But i guess that query is gonna be lot more "stupid" than just giving sp back.
Or worst case scenario, give us a skill related to invention. cause i still cant really understand how i can compete with t2 BPOs that have + ML while i have to start at -4 |
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Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
294
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Posted - 2014.07.19 09:33:00 -
[381] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:I said it before in the thread and it got ignored, I'll say it again.
The skill should reduce the job install cost by 25 or 50% total at level 5. This ends up being a less significant improvement than the ME skill (up to something like 7% in very busy systems) and it's not mandatory since people without the skill can save even more than that by moving to a different, less busy system. I disagree with what you suggest here. The main reason is it rewards players who make bad choices, and has minimal effect on those players who make the right choice.
Industry is all about making good choices now, and so to implement a skill which circumvents the folly of someone building in the wrong location seems contrary to the aims of these changes, and will not make for the good gameplay which crius is trying to implement into industry. |
Owen Levanth
Federated Deep Space Explorations
209
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Posted - 2014.07.19 10:13:00 -
[382] - Quote
iovi Hashur wrote:
Or worst case scenario, give us a skill related to invention. cause i still cant really understand how i can compete with t2 BPOs that have + ML while i have to start at -4
I don't know how you overlooked this, but after Crius you won't start at -4 ME anymore. (For one thing, ME isn't calculated like that anymore, and new T2 BPCs get positive values from now on. There was even something about how all existing T2 BPCs at the point of conversion will get a one-time extra boost to make the numbers less awkward. The formula was something like ME -4 turns into ME 2, which is then converted into the new system. For some reason this will result in ME -7% BPCs. ) |
Avacore Estemaire
The Scope Gallente Federation
26
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Posted - 2014.07.19 12:13:00 -
[383] - Quote
I feel that the most flexible option is to introduce new high rank skills that require the Advanced Industry skill to 5. They don't have to do a lot but they would also fix the annoyance that you can have an almost perfect manufacturing toon in like a month or two for all but T2 ships. This is your big chance to introduce all those high SP fringe skills that people have thought of through the ages. I would say that the total time-reduction for manufacturing (or cost reduction or whatever) could total to 25% (as 5% per level would) but I think it should require exponentially more skillpoints, use the refining skilltree as a point of reference.
Also make sure the skill in itself isn't worthless so make it 2% for all or something like that and make capital construction require it to 5.
tl;dr option 2 |
iovi Hashur
Genyosha Unlimited
4
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Posted - 2014.07.19 12:58:00 -
[384] - Quote
Owen Levanth wrote:iovi Hashur wrote:
Or worst case scenario, give us a skill related to invention. cause i still cant really understand how i can compete with t2 BPOs that have + ML while i have to start at -4
I don't know how you overlooked this, but after Crius you won't start at -4 ME anymore. (For one thing, ME isn't calculated like that anymore, and new T2 BPCs get positive values from now on. There was even something about how all existing T2 BPCs at the point of conversion will get a one-time extra boost to make the numbers less awkward. The formula was something like ME -4 turns into ME 2, which is then converted into the new system. For some reason this will result in ME -7% BPCs. )
I did see the negative ME change. What i meant was that even if ME now is 0 or positive, there are still ppl that have researched t2 BPOs which they can copy. And I hope i have missed a post or something, but i didn't see any exact date when t2 BPOs will be removed.
Tbh i didn't read how the transition for existing BPCs will be, but I hope they have taken into account the fact that most t2 BPO owners already have made lots of BPCs in case they lose the originals.
Anyway the thing is that i changed my plan when i trained this skill just to be able to make my own stuff and possibly make some profit. So I'm not really a hardcore industrialist. Thus time efficiency in industry really is of no interest to me atm. I just feel like this change is happening really fast and i don't remember anything being mentioned in the fanfest or till kronos release. I hope they wont go on and make hasty changes. Cause afterall its 11days worth of sp. if it was rank 1 it wouldn't be so big deal |
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CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
2473
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Posted - 2014.07.19 13:25:00 -
[385] - Quote
Kale Freeman wrote:I vote for the time bonus.
The only people who won't benefit from it are the people who choose to run small runs of small things. Anyone manufacturing seriously will be attempting to get maximum use out of each slot, so they are probably already running n*24 + 22 hour jobs. These are also the people who would have invested the time into training the skill previously, because it was pretty much a hard rule that it was required for serious manufacturing.
This will also provide some reprieve for the newbie manufacturers who face the research mountain
EDIT: As an aside, a more equitable solution for migrating the already researched blueprints would have been to preserve the hours of research put in. If I've put in 28 days of research into my blueprint, to get it to whatever ME/PE it is, then set my blueprint at such a level that it still represents 28 days of research.
The only downside is that the blueprint that used to be perfect, isn't perfect any more, but all the blueprints that used to be perfect would suffer the same fate, so any individual manufacturer would not be negatively affected because everyone would be in the same boat.
The current solution is allowing the existing veteran manufactuers to acquire blueprints that are effectively impossible (or totally impractical) for a new manufacturer to aim at. That last 1% ME is awesome, it simply 1% extra profit forever and ever, because only the grissly veterans who got it pre crius will ever have it. anyone who starts after crius will have missed the chance because now it is totally impractical to research to that level.
Anyway, I'll just quit now, coz my foot note is longer than my post!
With the constant-time approach, the player perspective that we're concerned about is "hey, I finish researching that blueprint and now I have to do a bunch more research to get back to where I was when I started", which we'd anticipate would cause a lot more uproar as we're taking absolute rather than comparative advantage away, and we lose the ability to say "yes, everyone caught up, but your blueprint still got a little bit better" (applies to most but not all cases). Yes, everyone would be affected the same, but everyone would need to research back up in order to catch up. It'd also presumably cause a huge output slowdown as people did so, and while we're expecting a fairly large market disruption anyway, this could end up being strongly counterproductive.
twit brent wrote:I pay a monthly subscription so my indy alt can train. If you take away a skill you should refund either the skillpoints or the game time.
Please see this from your Customers point of view and understand why people are angry.
We absolutely understand why people are angry, and it legitimately makes us sad to see everyone posting about it, but we need to balance that against the long-term health of the game, which sometimes forces us to make difficult decisions.
TigerXtrm wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq? Is the reduction in job cost completely off the table now? Because that's the kind of thing you'd expect there to be a skill for honestly. But between those two choices I'd pick the additional skills. More ways to specialize in this game is always good IMO (without creating a skill tree the size of Texas).
The problem with job cost reductions is that the job costs are already trying to be as small as possible without being irrelevant, and a 50% reduction pushes them way too far into the irrelevant direction. We could artificially increase the costs so that the skill brings them back down again, but that feels deeply artificial (and to some degree puts us back in the hole we started in, although not completely due to system-variable costs).
Shin Dari wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq? Now you are asking a hard question. I see it as such, the 3-5% all jobs time reduction is the minimal that needs to be done. The additional specialism skills (such as Facility Efficiency, Industrial Relations, etc) with Industry or Advanced Industry as prereq must also be done, but that can wait for next month or next release. You will need the feedback from the community and the emergent results from Crius to make proper decision for the industrial skill tree. You should make F&I tread for this next week.
That is a pretty reasonable suggestion.
Shiloh Templeton wrote:I'd vote for option 2 -- under the assumption that the specialization skills would be desirable.
As an aside: ME 5 will no longer be a requirement, but haven't most manufacturers recouped their time investment from having ME 5 for the last X years?
Most but not all, yes, insofaras it is an investment and not simply a barrier to entry. That said, the bulk of this discussion is not rooted in raw numbers, so it's not a driving factor in the decision.
Kuroi Aurgnet wrote:--TL;DR at bottom--
Okay, so.... I'm not going to lie- reading this thread has been as painful as removing teeth.
Lets have a small summation here:
CCP made a mistake. Oops. Mistakes happen. But this was a pretty big mistake and should never happen again.
Lots of hot air from all sides. People who are angry that something that they spent tons of time training has become invalid- this is by far not the first time it has happened (and frankly it SHOULDN'T EVER HAPPEN, but sometimes choices are made that the consequences arent clear until its too late- i.e. designing the skills this way), and it probably won't be the last time. At the same time we have a ton of people snapping at them saying "grow up and get over it". None of this is helping the problem at hand. We ALL want eve to be a good experience for everyone- so strive for that shall we?
Greyscale has gone from being kinda.... not so here on the issue to being actively in this thread. Hopefully the latte... |
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Ms Michigan
Aviation Professionals for EVE Rim Worlds Protectorate
48
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Posted - 2014.07.19 16:05:00 -
[386] - Quote
Rena Senn wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote: - We don't want to have skills that are as in-practice mandatory as the old Material Efficiency skill in the Industry skillset
Problem is, the skill was mandatory. For all the people who already trained it, which is just about everyone who seriously devoted themselves to industry, having that skill forced upon them in its new form will still be mandatory. CCP Greyscale wrote: - skills are supposed to be about specialization, not about jumping through hoops
As above, people have already jumped through hoops. Not refunding the SP is only going to force industrialists and bazaar traders to keep jumping through more hoops by playing SP catchup and re-adjusting sale values for a now far less useful skill. Skills are also supposed to be about player choice, not retroactively enforcing unwanted specialization. CCP Greyscale wrote: - we dislike skillpoint reassignment as the act of reassignment incrementally devalues the perceived value of skillpoints accumulated over time
Repurposing skills into less worthy iterations also devalues the perceived value of skillpoints over time, especially when CCP is sending the message that any SP you already invested may suddenly change in operation and hence value with every new patch. CCP Greyscale wrote: - We are in any case too close to the release to implement a refund at this time, and that is a non-disputable statement of fact precluding us from doing so even if we wanted to (which we don't)
Even so, this still demonstrates a highly flawed development and release schedule that did not properly accommodate for testing and customer feedback. Saying "We've already spent too much effort accelerating this car to 160 mph and it's going crash in the next minute regardless of whether we wanted to slow down or not (which we don't)" still makes you a reckless driver. In short, an iterative and incremental development model is not a carte blanche excuse to do less planning and be more callous towards preventable product faults. Regardless of how you've shaken up your content release schedule to make it 'more agile' or what have you, if the result is a loss of customer satisfaction, then you're doing it wrong.
THIS!
CCP Greyscale - your responses and attitude towards customer service make me want to unsubscribe from EVE and try any number of other games. Quit being so flippant and emo. It makes me want to cuss at you (which isn't allowed here). |
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
111
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 16:46:00 -
[387] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote: *stuff*
The amount of stuff kicking around the thread is interesting but all 11th hour and likely not to be implemented before December or sometime later than that. This thread needed to be started right after Kronos not right before the skill goes live. AND you're going on vacation after the patch and leaving us hanging for how long?!?!!
In american football we'd have backed up and punted already hoping for better field position next time. Just do the damn refund and next trip remember and utilize the fact you've got the smartest playerbase of any MMO. |
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CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
2473
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Posted - 2014.07.19 17:26:00 -
[388] - Quote
Mhari Dson wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote: *stuff*
The amount of stuff kicking around the thread is interesting but all 11th hour and likely not to be implemented before December or sometime later than that. This thread needed to be started right after Kronos not right before the skill goes live. AND you're going on vacation after the patch and leaving us hanging for how long?!?!!In american football we'd have backed up and punted already hoping for better field position next time. Just do the damn refund and next trip remember and utilize the fact you've got the smartest playerbase of any MMO.
We had a separate plan for the skill relating to the bulk discount that didn't work out (ie we cut the discount a few weeks ago based on feedback and internal discussion), so we're looking around for alternatives. I fully support your right to be skeptical, but all I can do in the face of that is reiterate that we want to solve this as soon as possible, and we are looking to make changes next week to be shipped the week after.
Furthermore, I'm taking my vacation "in August" because I pushed it back from July so that I'd be on hand for the pre- and post-release period, and I'm not expecting to lock in final dates until the release is in a good state on TQ and I'm comfortable that it's safe to leave it for a few weeks. This is the last discussion I'm expecting to hear regarding when I choose to take my summer vacation and I'd thank you all for understanding that a) I've already moved it about considerably and cancelled earlier plans to ensure that this patch goes off without a hitch, b) we've done this for many years and we have a very clear understanding internally about how to handle vacation time as it relates to game coverage and c) this is only being discussed because I'm trying to be as open as possible about what's going on, and if the consequence of that is that people are going to second-guess whether or not they think I'm allowed to have a vacation this year based on an extremely thin understanding of the facts involved I am going to choose to be less open in future |
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Mackenzie Nolen
XYJAX
8
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 18:13:00 -
[389] - Quote
After reading all the suggestions and goals (specialization vs hoops), I've changed my mind on this skill entirely. Here is what I would like to see it become:
Have the skill apply a bonus to team efficiency.
Tentatively I would say a 10% bonus per level to team efficiency. A team with a 2% ME benefit would have a 3% ME benefit for someone with level 5 of adv industry. Even better since teams are new, base team values can be tweaked around this bonus and no one has to know :)
"reasons":
1) Teams are specialization incarnate. People that want a TE benefit can pick those teams and people that want ME benefit pick those teams and this skill benefits BOTH by ampifying team effects. 2) Keeps this away from affecting install costs which sounds like it's on a knife-edge already. 3) Teams are, to me, very much an "advanced industry" feature that many newer indy types may not bother with initially (making this very much a specialization path) 4) I hope level 5 remains a pre-req for capital industry (I've seen conflicting info so far and haven't checked if sisi is up yet today to verify) 5) It sounds as though teams will be most beneficial to capital ship industry. Leaving it as a pre-req for cap production while tying it to team benefits reinforces this connection. It also puts cap builders on a more level field wrt team bonuses, leaving the driving factors for cap production in the hands of things like the thukker module so cap production can be squeezed out of hisec (which seems like an unstated gosl, but one I'm fine with anyway) |
Kuroi Aurgnet
Celestial Phoenix Industries
15
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Posted - 2014.07.19 18:23:00 -
[390] - Quote
Mackenzie Nolen wrote:After reading all the suggestions and goals (specialization vs hoops), I've changed my mind on this skill entirely. Here is what I would like to see it become:
Have the skill apply a bonus to team efficiency.
Tentatively I would say a 10% bonus per level to team efficiency. A team with a 2% ME benefit would have a 3% ME benefit for someone with level 5 of adv industry. Even better since teams are new, base team values can be tweaked around this bonus and no one has to know :)
"reasons":
1) Teams are specialization incarnate. People that want a TE benefit can pick those teams and people that want ME benefit pick those teams and this skill benefits BOTH by ampifying team effects. 2) Keeps this away from affecting install costs which sounds like it's on a knife-edge already. 3) Teams are, to me, very much an "advanced industry" feature that many newer indy types may not bother with initially (making this very much a specialization path) 4) I hope level 5 remains a pre-req for capital industry (I've seen conflicting info so far and haven't checked if sisi is up yet today to verify) 5) It sounds as though teams will be most beneficial to capital ship industry. Leaving it as a pre-req for cap production while tying it to team benefits reinforces this connection. It also puts cap builders on a more level field wrt team bonuses, leaving the driving factors for cap production in the hands of things like the thukker module so cap production can be squeezed out of hisec (which seems like an unstated gosl, but one I'm fine with anyway)
the thing about this is that until teams hit tranquility- we can't tell how this would balance out. furthermore, this would end up being a skill favoring only those who manufacture in areas with teams. wormhole players, people in the middle of nowhere, etc might not benefit from it as much- and that won't fly with something that used to be such an important skill.
Just that hint of cynicism the world needs now and then. |
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