Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Chris TheNinjaPirate
|
Posted - 2006.06.14 18:16:00 -
[1]
Hi,
I note that the Zealot and Sacrilege both have similar base armor resists, but the Sacrilege has the bonus: 5% bonus to all armor resists per level.
So naturally I thought that the Zealot could be a better tank. However, I was told by someone that because the Zealot requires cruiser 5 in the first place, the stat sheet is showing the armor resists with the 25% bonus ALREADY INCLUDED.
That sounds like rubbish to me.
So - can you settle this for me? - Does the Sacrilege get higher resists due to its bonus - Or are the Zealot and Sacrilege resists equal EVEN AFTER the 25% bonus?
Thank you.
|
Cruz
|
Posted - 2006.06.14 18:25:00 -
[2]
Sacrilege has higher resists. The 25% bonus is put into affect when you get into the ship.
Its all pointless though because 1 energized nano makes up for that and then the zealot still has 1 extra lowslot and does more dps. ................. |
Chris TheNinjaPirate
|
Posted - 2006.06.14 18:41:00 -
[3]
That is what I thought. Why do so many people think that the 25% bonus is part of the base stats?
|
Aramendel
|
Posted - 2006.06.14 18:48:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Aramendel on 14/06/2006 18:53:37
Originally by: Chris TheNinjaPirate That is what I thought. Why do so many people think that the 25% bonus is part of the base stats?
Because it's this way for the AFs.
As a sidenote, be aware that as with all + res boni those 25 are multiplied, not added. So the Sacri won't have for example 60% thermal resist but 51.25%.
Originally by: Imode if the bonus is for the racial cruiser skill, then its already included in the ship
if its for the heavy assault ship skill, then its added bonus on top of what is already show in the info
Wrong. You can see this pretty easily with the EM armor resistance of the sacri. It has the base 60% there. If the resistances would be already applied in the ship info you wouldn't get that there.
|
Imode
|
Posted - 2006.06.14 18:48:00 -
[5]
if the bonus is for the racial cruiser skill, then its already included in the ship
if its for the heavy assault ship skill, then its added bonus on top of what is already show in the info ____________________________
|
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.06.14 18:49:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Chris TheNinjaPirate That is what I thought. Why do so many people think that the 25% bonus is part of the base stats?
because the resistance bonuses on assault frigs, transport ships and exhumers are pre-applied :/
|
Chris TheNinjaPirate
|
Posted - 2006.06.14 19:02:00 -
[7]
WTF, I'm confused....
So it is pre-applied for some, and not pre-applied for others?
Is there some official word on this somewhere? Or can someone who has a sac post a screenshot of their fittings page with no gear on? (So that base resists+bonus can be seen?)
Thanks!
|
Aramendel
|
Posted - 2006.06.14 19:12:00 -
[8]
What Sarmaul said...
And, as said, you can see it easily when you look at the unchanged resistances. Both the sacri and the zealot have 60% EM resistance. If the sacris boni would be pre-applied it would have higher values there.
|
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.06.14 19:20:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Chris TheNinjaPirate WTF, I'm confused....
So it is pre-applied for some, and not pre-applied for others?
Is there some official word on this somewhere? Or can someone who has a sac post a screenshot of their fittings page with no gear on? (So that base resists+bonus can be seen?)
Thanks!
Basically, if it inherits the bonus from it's t1 ship, it's not pre-applied. The Maller gets 5% armor resistances/cruiser level and the Moa gets it for shield. The T2 ships also get this bonus, but it is applied in the same way as a T1 ship (i.e. after you get into it). If CCP ever lowered the skill requirements for HACs to Cruiser 4, you could in theory jump into an Eagle/Sac and get 20% resistances instead of 25%, unless you trained Cruiser to 5.
The Assault frigates, Transport ships and Exhumers's resistance bonus is not inherited from their T1 counterpart, so it is pre-applied.
|
Aberash
|
Posted - 2006.06.14 19:22:00 -
[10]
I dont get it, people prove that the %5 armor reist bonus for amarr cruisers is pointless.. why not change it
It makes ships like the sac a bit useless compared to the zealot, when it could be so much more..
|
|
sirlisterofsmeg
|
Posted - 2006.06.14 19:22:00 -
[11]
I dont get it, people prove that the %5 armor reist bonus for amarr cruisers is pointless.. why not change it
It makes ships like the sac a bit useless compared to the zealot, when it could be so much more..
|
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.06.14 19:29:00 -
[12]
how the hell is it useless? You get a free energized adaptive nano II with maxed out compensation skills and it bypasses the stacking penalty.
|
Rychek
|
Posted - 2006.06.14 20:16:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Sarmaul how the hell is it useless? You get a free energized adaptive nano II with maxed out compensation skills and it bypasses the stacking penalty.
Comparitivly speaking. A 25% bonus to resists, or a 33% increase in damage. Ill take the damage.
|
Cruz
|
Posted - 2006.06.14 20:20:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Cruz on 14/06/2006 20:20:54
Originally by: Rychek
Originally by: Sarmaul how the hell is it useless? You get a free energized adaptive nano II with maxed out compensation skills and it bypasses the stacking penalty.
Comparitivly speaking. A 25% bonus to resists, or a 33% increase in damage. Ill take the damage.
25% bonus in resists gives you a 25% increase in effective armor AND 25% increase in effective Armor Repaired per second by armor repairers.
Then again sac has 2 less lows, but it is more versatile imo, the ability to do more then just Thermal/EM damage helps it out a lot. Not to mention one more midslot for fitting something like say a tracking disruptor or sensor dampener. And 3 light drones. ................. |
Nyxus
|
Posted - 2006.06.14 20:27:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Nyxus on 14/06/2006 20:28:39
Originally by: Sarmaul how the hell is it useless? You get a free energized adaptive nano II with maxed out compensation skills and it bypasses the stacking penalty.
Not useless per se, just MUCH less effective than other bonuses as currently implemented.
Because of the way stacking reduces (% of a %) the 5% per level bonus is actually less than that when you start putting them on ships. No other ship bonus has to contend with this problem. 25% rof is 25% rof when applied. +25% damage is 25% damage. +37.5% to repairer effectiveness is +37.5% repairer effectiveness.
In actuality I think the 7.5% per level effectiveness is actually a better tanking bonus than resistance. That 7.5% is additive accross each repper mod you put on your ship as opposed to a resistance bonus which is automatically reduced from the start then continues to reduce later EAN II's although they are not further penalized by being on the same stacking "line".
I think the %resistance needs to be raised just as the Brutix bonus was raised. Right now there just isn't much noticeable difference to tanking on the Maller and Prophecy even at level 5 respectively.
Or just make the 25% not apply to the stacking reduction on tanking, but that may overpower it. I haven't run the numbers myself to be sure yet. At least it would be noticeable.
Nyxus
Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
|
gfldex
|
Posted - 2006.06.14 20:41:00 -
[16]
The bonus of the Brutix got raised from 5% to 7.5% per level to get it to the same lvl of a Proph.
Resi > Repair bonus
If you math tells you different then your math is not the same as on the server. -- $ perl -n -e 'print "Stop blameing pirates! Oveur is the root of all evil!\n" if m/podkill|lost my ship|gank|gate camp|Verone/;'
|
Nyxus
|
Posted - 2006.06.14 21:22:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Nyxus on 14/06/2006 21:23:59
Originally by: gfldex The bonus of the Brutix got raised from 5% to 7.5% per level to get it to the same lvl of a Proph.
Resi > Repair bonus
If you math tells you different then your math is not the same as on the server.
Wow snide, uninformative and snotty. Thats 3 for 3 on the useless forum poster's scale.
The Brutix repair bonus wasn't raised to "bring it to prophecy level" as you assert. Rather the 5% repair effectiveness wasn't all that noticeable even when placed on a Med Rep II because the base number it was effecting wasn't all that large. 5% on a Large Repper would most likely be more than enough because the base repaired amount is so much larger. 7.5% didn't just make it noticeable, it made the bonus good and desired.
Saying "resi>repair" is misleading and possibly entirely incorrect. But if you would like to post your math and show me the proof behind your statements please do so. If it is so clear cut as you say, it should be easy to do.
Nyxus
Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
|
Cruz
|
Posted - 2006.06.14 21:34:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Nyxus Edited by: Nyxus on 14/06/2006 21:23:59
Originally by: gfldex The bonus of the Brutix got raised from 5% to 7.5% per level to get it to the same lvl of a Proph.
Resi > Repair bonus
If you math tells you different then your math is not the same as on the server.
Wow snide, uninformative and snotty. Thats 3 for 3 on the useless forum poster's scale.
The Brutix repair bonus wasn't raised to "bring it to prophecy level" as you assert. Rather the 5% repair effectiveness wasn't all that noticeable even when placed on a Med Rep II because the base number it was effecting wasn't all that large. 5% on a Large Repper would most likely be more than enough because the base repaired amount is so much larger. 7.5% didn't just make it noticeable, it made the bonus good and desired.
Saying "resi>repair" is misleading and possibly entirely incorrect. But if you would like to post your math and show me the proof behind your statements please do so. If it is so clear cut as you say, it should be easy to do.
Nyxus
Don't make me bust out the math please... a 25% resist bonus gives you an effective 25% increase in HP AND a 25% increase in the effectiveness of your armor repairer.
Also you don't understand how armor hardening stacking works do you? FYI the 25% resist bonus that a sac/proph gets gives you a flat 25% reduction in dps recieved. Saying that because resist only goes from 60% to 70% for EM only gives a 10% reduction is mathematically flawed, its a 25% reduction in damage despite the % only increasing by 10. ................. |
gfldex
|
Posted - 2006.06.14 22:35:00 -
[19]
Taking and repairing damage in EVE does not work in dmg/sec. It happens in chunks so it's basicly an interaction of two wave functions (actualy it's more then one function because of the different resi on shield/armor/structure). As I don't know the used algorithms I can't tell how those wave functions looks like.
But I don't have to because I can go to the test server and do empiric tests. And I can tell you that all those nice paper damage is worth a *beep*. Even in an reather artifical experiment where I was shooting with a single gun on a giant secure at optimal range I found out that the avarage damage is around 30% higher then the paper damage. But even with 200 shots there was a big difference between 2 tests of about 10% additional damage depending on how much wrackings are made.
If we take tracking and falloff into account the gap between paper and server damage is getting even wider (hit chance is indeed 50% but average damage is going down to 20% at end of falloff).
And the boni both for Brutix and Cyclone got changed because ppl complained here on the forum that both ships have a hard time to tank the very same mission. Just browse back to the time befor the mk2 thingy. Loads of complains about both ships.
Ohh here a true gem! Tux himself states that the Cyclone and Brutix still got a weaker tank (after raise to 7.5%) then Proph and Ferox. I'm not quite sure if he understand the underlying math as a whole but I'm sure he knows what he's talking about because he tried (Heck this bastard got his own server!).
-- $ perl -n -e 'print "Stop blameing pirates! Oveur is the root of all evil!\n" if m/podkill|lost my ship|gank|gate camp|Verone/;'
|
gfldex
|
Posted - 2006.06.14 22:43:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Cruz
Don't make me bust out the math please... a 25% resist bonus gives you an effective 25% increase in HP AND a 25% increase in the effectiveness of your armor repairer.
It's not that easy. The time you survive longer gives you more time to run your repair. A difference in burst damage (size of chunks of damage) can get you into structure within a repair cycle or not (shorter cycle of boosters can be better then long of repair). Here do high resi help too.
-- $ perl -n -e 'print "Stop blameing pirates! Oveur is the root of all evil!\n" if m/podkill|lost my ship|gank|gate camp|Verone/;'
|
|
Chris TheNinjaPirate
|
Posted - 2006.06.14 22:45:00 -
[21]
Wow, derailed thread.
I'm still looking for a screenshot or something that verifies the sac's armor resists bonuses.
Anyway, I've heard repeatedly that the Sac is better than the Zealot for PVE (level 4 missions and such). Is that so?
|
Zyrla Bladestorm
|
Posted - 2006.06.14 22:48:00 -
[22]
Having your armour HP last 5% longer is as good in every possible situation as repairing 5% more since the HP you repair lasts 5% longer. Plus it helps if you dont fit any repairers at all - as such the cyclone and brutix bonuses were at best equal to the prophecy and ferox and most of the time simply worse.
skill-based resistance bonuses do not effect the stacking penalty, so having more of them increases the maximum resists you can attain, the result is a sacriledge with one EANM II and max compensation skills will have higher resists than a zealot with two of them and the same maxed skills (much more noticeable when we're talking 2 on the sac and 3 on the zealot though) . ----- Apologies for any rambling that may have just occurred.
|
Aramendel
|
Posted - 2006.06.14 22:48:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Aramendel on 14/06/2006 22:50:36 Actually what is "better" depends what kind of DPS is directed against you.
With a common MAR2 the 37.5% boni of the gal BCs gives you 120 more armor repaired every 9.6 seconds (or every 9.2 seconds with maxxed repair systems skill, but I do not think rep systems V is that common, fell free to correct me though). Anyway: this negates effectively 12.5 dps per armor rep (after all resistances have been applied, of cource).
In order to get the same dps reduction for 25% resistance amarr ships need to suffer 50 dps damage after all resistances but the 25% bonus. 12.5 dps of that will get resisted, 37.5 dps will get through.
In short: If a ship suffers more than 50 dps (after normal armor resistance and harderners) the 25% res bonus will be more effective than the 37.5% armor rep bonus, if it suffers less than 50 dps it will be less effective. The effeciency breakeven for the res bonus is above the max longterm tankable dps, though, even with maxxed rep system a MAR2 can at most negate 34.8 dps.
IMO both are pretty much balanced. The gal one is better for PvE where longterm tanking is more important while the amarr one is better in PvP where you are more likely to get focus fired on.
Originally by: Chris TheNinjaPirate Wow, derailed thread.
I'm still looking for a screenshot or something that verifies the sac's armor resists bonuses.
How things are has been shown to you. Choose to believe it or not.
|
Hellspawn01
|
Posted - 2006.06.14 22:49:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Sarmaul how the hell is it useless? You get a free energized adaptive nano II with maxed out compensation skills and it bypasses the stacking penalty.
Exactly. Also a Sacrilege can run 2x med armor reps forever with the right setup. Zealot can do it too but it has to sacrifice more low slots to archive it.
**Ship lovers click here** |
gfldex
|
Posted - 2006.06.15 02:34:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Zyrla Bladestorm Having your armour HP last 5% longer is as good in every possible situation as repairing 5% more since the HP you repair lasts 5% longer.
Does that mean that it's even depending how many damage you get per time? So we could say that higher resi are better when you are slightly undertanked and resi are better when you are heavyly undertanked rep bonus helps more?
-- $ perl -n -e 'print "Stop blameing pirates! Oveur is the root of all evil!\n" if m/podkill|lost my ship|gank|gate camp|Verone/;'
|
Tel Bakhara
|
Posted - 2006.06.15 02:42:00 -
[26]
Personally I believe that it is shield not armor makes Sac out tank Zealot. 25% resis vs. 2 Adap. nano II, just slot wise. When a Zealot pilot do want to tank, he tanks well.
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |