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Dreamdancer
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Posted - 2006.06.01 11:39:00 -
[1]
I'm a little confused here. Been looking at various ships. Gun ships get bonuses on damage. Flat, no bonus on just this or that type of damage. While missiles always seem to be limited to one type, usually kinetic.
Why?
Cause any reason I can think of such as velocity would also limit guns. So it just doesn't make any sense. Please enlighten my sleep fogged brain.
Moved from General Discussion. - Ivan K
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Benefactor
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Posted - 2006.06.01 11:41:00 -
[2]
Missiles have the greatest variety of damage types possible. It depends on the missile you stick into the launcher.
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Benefactor
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Posted - 2006.06.01 11:42:00 -
[3]
Unless you mean specific ships getting specific damage bonuses, like the nearly useless EM missile damage bonus on Amarr ships. That one beats me, too.
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Sandra Tseng
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Posted - 2006.06.01 11:44:00 -
[4]
Every race has a "prefered damage type"
Amarr = EM Caldari = kinetic Gallente = Thermal Minmatar = Explosive
Same goes for each race¦s drone types
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Dreamdancer
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Posted - 2006.06.01 11:52:00 -
[5]
Understand the racial preferred damage, but it's not on the guns ship bonuses for the same race.
Plus the Kessy is a great example of missile damage looniness.
Special Ability: 10% bonus to Kinetic missile damage and 5% bonus to EM, Explosive, and Thermal missile damage per level.
Why the difference? A missile is a missile. Either it hits correctly or not. Why limit the player to use only one type? The damage types are already effected at the target level. Various targets are effected better this or that type of damage.
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Sandra Tseng
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Posted - 2006.06.01 11:57:00 -
[6]
Maybe this is to reflect that the Caldari race prefers to use Kinetic missiles so they have become better at manufacturing them and their Kinetic Missiles are better than the Kinetic Missiles fo other races?
Kinetic Missiles (again)
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Dreamdancer
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Posted - 2006.06.01 12:56:00 -
[7]
I'd buy into that if Caldari ships were only flown in Caldari space and purchased their missile from the same supplier.
But as I make my own if those missiles were better then anyone using them would get the bonus in any ship.
Minmatar ships get bonuses on the projectile damage. Any type. Projectile ammo has all forms of damage. So why the limits on the missiles?
Either give the missile damage bonus across the board or remove it and give a different missile bonus. Something logical. As the way it is it's not logical.
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.06.01 13:01:00 -
[8]
This is because missiles are all the same with only different damage types. Had they been like drones (i.e. had kinetic missiles done most damage), then you'd have seen all those "+5% Kinetic Missile Damage" turned into "+5% Missile Damage". CCP just want Caldari to do their own damage.
Why don't I get to choose explosive antimatter charges? New sig coming soonÖ In the next (content) patch Information Warfare will be nerfed. How sad, it wasn't even useful to begin with. |
Sandra Tseng
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Posted - 2006.06.01 13:11:00 -
[9]
Ever checked the damage bonus to the Minmatar Stealth Bomber?
besides - maybe the caldari knows how to upgrade their missiles themselves? Or maybe the ships targeting computer is calibrated for Kinetic missiles making them hit and/or expload at the right time and place to do the most Kinetic damage...?
or like - whatever - that is the way it is?
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.01 13:16:00 -
[10]
the reason you don't get it with turrets is because turret ammo is already balanced to do their race's primary and secondary damage. Missiles however, only do one damage type each and do it in equal qualtities to other missiles so the +25% kinetic/thermal/etc damage is to keep the racial damage types in check.
Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
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Dreamdancer
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Posted - 2006.06.01 13:20:00 -
[11]
Hybrid and Laser weapons do a certain type of damage based on the real life type of weapon they are.
While projectiles deliver their various damages by the loads carried within the ammo. Same with missiles. Missile warheads are filled with different mixes that provide the type of damage desired. As each missile explodes nearby the target and none actually hit there is no ingame reason for there to be a bonus of only one sort.
So once again, CCP make missile damage bonus across the board or give a legitimate and logical reason for it being just kinetic.
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Sandra Tseng
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Posted - 2006.06.01 13:23:00 -
[12]
Now you are just being silly, demanding dramatic game alterations... I do not think CCP cares if you find the ships missile bonuses "unlogic"
Neither do I think they should...
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.01 13:28:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Dreamdancer So once again, CCP make missile damage bonus across the board or give a legitimate and logical reason for it being just kinetic.
Role play. It's the only reason you'll get, as it's the only reason there is. Otherwise, lets give lasers and hybrids the ability to do all 4 damage types too.
Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
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Dreamdancer
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Posted - 2006.06.01 13:28:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Sarmaul the reason you don't get it with turrets is because turret ammo is already balanced to do their race's primary and secondary damage. Missiles however, only do one damage type each and do it in equal qualtities to other missiles so the +25% kinetic/thermal/etc damage is to keep the racial damage types in check.
Actually not true. Minmatar ammo does every sort of damage. Pick choose based on what your targets weaknesses are. And the ship does not care whether you are putting in Phased or Nuclear or ECM. So projectile blows that out.
Also if the racial argument is being made then why do both Gal and Caldari specialize in hybrid weapons firing the same ammo. That does kinetic and thermal only? Kinda throws the racial arguement out the window.
Then Gal secondary is drones which do any type of damage equally. Depending on the drone you choose and don't use the skills because you aren't limited to which skill you train by your race.
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Sandra Tseng
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Posted - 2006.06.01 13:31:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Dreamdancer
Originally by: Sarmaul the reason you don't get it with turrets is because turret ammo is already balanced to do their race's primary and secondary damage. Missiles however, only do one damage type each and do it in equal qualtities to other missiles so the +25% kinetic/thermal/etc damage is to keep the racial damage types in check.
Actually not true. Minmatar ammo does every sort of damage. Pick choose based on what your targets weaknesses are. And the ship does not care whether you are putting in Phased or Nuclear or ECM. So projectile blows that out.
Also if the racial argument is being made then why do both Gal and Caldari specialize in hybrid weapons firing the same ammo. That does kinetic and thermal only? Kinda throws the racial arguement out the window.
Then Gal secondary is drones which do any type of damage equally. Depending on the drone you choose and don't use the skills because you aren't limited to which skill you train by your race.
1) Gallente prefer Thermal Damage, Caldari prefer Kinetic. Hybrids do both and both are prefered to both races - easy is it not?
2) Gallente likes drones yes - but the GALLENTE made drones (Hobgoblin, hammerhead and Ogre) all do THERMAL damage. The Caldari drones do kinetic, EM for the Amarrians and Expl for the Minmatar drones. Any race can use any drones - but you need each race's DRONE SPECIALIZATION skill to fly each race¦s T2 drones
IE Gallente Drone Specialization skill for Ogre IIs Minmatar Drone Specialization for Berzerker IIs and so on
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.01 13:31:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Dreamdancer
Originally by: Sarmaul the reason you don't get it with turrets is because turret ammo is already balanced to do their race's primary and secondary damage. Missiles however, only do one damage type each and do it in equal qualtities to other missiles so the +25% kinetic/thermal/etc damage is to keep the racial damage types in check.
Actually not true. Minmatar ammo does every sort of damage. Pick choose based on what your targets weaknesses are. And the ship does not care whether you are putting in Phased or Nuclear or ECM. So projectile blows that out.
Projectiles primarily do explosive and kinetic, with some ammos doing EM and thermal. this is to make up for the god-awful dps our guns do.
Quote: Also if the racial argument is being made then why do both Gal and Caldari specialize in hybrid weapons firing the same ammo. That does kinetic and thermal only? Kinda throws the racial arguement out the window.
Except it doesn't, because each race has 2 main damage types. Minny get EX and KI, amarr get EM and TH, and gallente and caldari get TH and KI. Check your backstory and you'll realise that Caldari is an offshoot from the Gallente Federation, hence the same types of guns. The difference is Caldari branched into missiles and Gallente branched into drones.
Quote: Then Gal secondary is drones which do any type of damage equally. Depending on the drone you choose and don't use the skills because you aren't limited to which skill you train by your race.
Yes, and if it were up to me I would change this. The devs tried once, and the collective whinging was so great I don't think they dare do it again.
Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
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Dreamdancer
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Posted - 2006.06.01 13:35:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Sandra Tseng Now you are just being silly, demanding dramatic game alterations... I do not think CCP cares if you find the ships missile bonuses "unlogic"
Neither do I think they should...
OK maybe I am being silly, but CCP was silly when they did this and leaving it is even sillier.
There simply is no reason for it being in the game. No one has given a good logical reason for it being there.
We all know the Raven is the mission runners choice because of it's strengths and flexibilty. And missiles certainly don't need anymore bonuses, but leaving in illogical bonuses in is silly. Just drop the kinetic only bonus and add something else. Something like Guided missile precision or something else if that would unbalance things.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.01 13:38:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Dreamdancer We all know the Raven is the mission runners choice because of it's strengths and flexibilty. And missiles certainly don't need anymore bonuses, but leaving in illogical bonuses in is silly. Just drop the kinetic only bonus and add something else. Something like Guided missile precision or something else if that would unbalance things.
so your *****ing about a bonus on the raven that doesn't even exist?
Quote: Special Ability: 5% bonus to Cruise and Siege Launcher Rate Of Fire and 10% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo Velocity per level.
Muppet :/
Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
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Dreamdancer
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Posted - 2006.06.01 13:43:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Sandra Tseng
Originally by: Dreamdancer
Originally by: Sarmaul the reason you don't get it with turrets is because turret ammo is already balanced to do their race's primary and secondary damage. Missiles however, only do one damage type each and do it in equal qualtities to other missiles so the +25% kinetic/thermal/etc damage is to keep the racial damage types in check.
Actually not true. Minmatar ammo does every sort of damage. Pick choose based on what your targets weaknesses are. And the ship does not care whether you are putting in Phased or Nuclear or ECM. So projectile blows that out.
Also if the racial argument is being made then why do both Gal and Caldari specialize in hybrid weapons firing the same ammo. That does kinetic and thermal only? Kinda throws the racial arguement out the window.
Then Gal secondary is drones which do any type of damage equally. Depending on the drone you choose and don't use the skills because you aren't limited to which skill you train by your race.
1) Gallente prefer Thermal Damage, Caldari prefer Kinetic. Hybrids do both and both are prefered to both races - easy is it not?
2) Gallente likes drones yes - but the GALLENTE made drones (Hobgoblin, hammerhead and Ogre) all do THERMAL damage. The Caldari drones do kinetic, EM for the Amarrians and Expl for the Minmatar drones. Any race can use any drones - but you need each race's DRONE SPECIALIZATION skill to fly each race¦s T2 drones
IE Gallente Drone Specialization skill for Ogre IIs Minmatar Drone Specialization for Berzerker IIs and so on
I'd agree here if as a Minmatar I was forced to learn just Minmatar drone Specialization. But I can learn and use all 4. So racial reason is shot down again.
Thus giving both Gal and Min all 4 damage types. Amarr are the most screwed here as they are truely limited to EM with a minor in thermal, but that's the natural of the laser. I guess in a small way they are paid back by having to go thru ammo, aka crystals, slower. Though that's a pitance.
But still why does the Kessy for example do more damage with kinetic missiles? It just makes no sense. If the missile actually struck and did not explode next to the target I'd totally buy into it. But the new missiles skills are all about the fact that missile are actually near miss weapons.
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FFGR
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Posted - 2006.06.01 13:44:00 -
[20]
tbh I never thought of game breaking of changing the msl damage bonuses to :
5% kinetic -> 5% kinetic and 2.5% thermal 5% explosive -> 5% explosive and 2.5% kinetic 5% em -> 5% em and 2.5% thermal 5% thermal -> 5% thermal and 2.5% kinetic
10% kinetic and 5% rest -> 10% kinetic, 7.5% thermal, em and expl 5% rest follow the upper paterns.
Gives Bombers a secondary damage bonus (and all the msl boats with damage bonuses) and they aren't game breaking as the bonus is less on the secondary bonus damage. _____________________________
siggys v. 0.5 |
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Dreamdancer
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Posted - 2006.06.01 13:45:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Dreamdancer We all know the Raven is the mission runners choice because of it's strengths and flexibilty. And missiles certainly don't need anymore bonuses, but leaving in illogical bonuses in is silly. Just drop the kinetic only bonus and add something else. Something like Guided missile precision or something else if that would unbalance things.
so your *****ing about a bonus on the raven that doesn't even exist?
Quote: Special Ability: 5% bonus to Cruise and Siege Launcher Rate Of Fire and 10% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo Velocity per level.
Muppet :/
OK I picked the wrong ship. I remember when it did have the bonus. Focus on the question.
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Dreamdancer
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Posted - 2006.06.01 13:49:00 -
[22]
Originally by: FFGR tbh I never thought of game breaking of changing the msl damage bonuses to :
5% kinetic -> 5% kinetic and 2.5% thermal 5% explosive -> 5% explosive and 2.5% kinetic 5% em -> 5% em and 2.5% thermal 5% thermal -> 5% thermal and 2.5% kinetic
10% kinetic and 5% rest -> 10% kinetic, 7.5% thermal, em and expl 5% rest follow the upper paterns.
Gives Bombers a secondary damage bonus (and all the msl boats with damage bonuses) and they aren't game breaking as the bonus is less on the secondary bonus damage.
An interesting idea, but why should there be bonuses on certain types of damage?
A missile flys out from your ship chases your target till it gets within a certain proximatity and goes boom. The ship has virtually no effect on how much damage it does at that point. Other then maybe making it more accurate. In which case it would effect all forms of damage.
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Valea Silpha
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Posted - 2006.06.01 13:58:00 -
[23]
Im happy to go along with the 'Caldari ships are optimiseed for kinetic missiles' reasoning.
Since im fairly certain kinetic missiles don't explode, they just have a weighty inert tip and essentially they just ram the other guy. In that way, other races ships are optimised to make the missile get close and explode/spew plasma/dischager EMP so that the other ship flies into the path of the charge. As such, when they are loaded with a missile that has to use a completely different method of engagement they aren't as efficent, where as caldari as missile ships have the whole 'ram the other guy' thing hardwired into their systems and know how to do it to best effect.
This brings the further idea that as kinetic missiles literally impact the other guy, they could in theory be smashing into more vulnerable parts of the other ships, assuming the ship has enough finesse to get the targetting right.
<Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing <Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head |
Dreamdancer
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Posted - 2006.06.01 14:05:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Valea Silpha Im happy to go along with the 'Caldari ships are optimiseed for kinetic missiles' reasoning.
Since im fairly certain kinetic missiles don't explode, they just have a weighty inert tip and essentially they just ram the other guy. In that way, other races ships are optimised to make the missile get close and explode/spew plasma/dischager EMP so that the other ship flies into the path of the charge. As such, when they are loaded with a missile that has to use a completely different method of engagement they aren't as efficent, where as caldari as missile ships have the whole 'ram the other guy' thing hardwired into their systems and know how to do it to best effect.
This brings the further idea that as kinetic missiles literally impact the other guy, they could in theory be smashing into more vulnerable parts of the other ships, assuming the ship has enough finesse to get the targetting right.
Not a bad way of looking at it and would explain the kinetic thing, but kinda kills the whole new skills thing. As it would mean you either hit or don't if it don't go boom.
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Angus McLein
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Posted - 2006.06.01 14:14:00 -
[25]
So whats the point of this topic? I swear ive read it 4 times over and still dont get it. Heres what I think your saying "I want all Caldari missile ships to have 100% damage bonus to EM, Thermal, Kinetic and Explosive per level because CCP tried to balance the game by only giving Caldari Kinetic because that just happens to be there main missile type."
If you dont see this then ok. But Caldari mainly get Kinetic because thats there reaces preferred damage. As another person said above Its roleplaying. Thats what happens in roleplaying games...someones got to have a bonus somewhere and you cant just go giving a missile bonus to every dmg type to make caldari uber. So CCP had to pick one and based that caldari like Kinetic...thats what they chose.
Amarr doesnt get 500,000% damage bonus to EM thermal kinetic and explosive..and yeah granted they do get 10% damage bonus per level...but you can do the same thing by training your missile skills.
SO either you dont have jack missile skills and want ccp to make missiles uber to 200k sp characters or you fly a raven and want to be able to gank a nossing ship before it gets in range.
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Onaka
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Posted - 2006.06.01 14:39:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Valea Silpha Im happy to go along with the 'Caldari ships are optimiseed for kinetic missiles' reasoning.
Since im fairly certain kinetic missiles don't explode, they just have a weighty inert tip and essentially they just ram the other guy. In that way, other races ships are optimised to make the missile get close and explode/spew plasma/dischager EMP so that the other ship flies into the path of the charge. As such, when they are loaded with a missile that has to use a completely different method of engagement they aren't as efficent, where as caldari as missile ships have the whole 'ram the other guy' thing hardwired into their systems and know how to do it to best effect.
This brings the further idea that as kinetic missiles literally impact the other guy, they could in theory be smashing into more vulnerable parts of the other ships, assuming the ship has enough finesse to get the targetting right.
That's pretty much how I see kinetic missiles too. I could also imagine that kinetic missiles don't have to literally hit their target, but that they'll get close and explode into a well-directed shower of shrapnell that hammers the target.
For Caldari ships being specialized in that, I'd say that they're better at correctly positioning a missile to get maximum effect from the kinetic hailstorm. For example, a kinetic missile chasing after a ship would be less effective than one flying head-on to it and exploding in its face. Perhaps the Caldari ships in question have additional on-board missile guidance that is optimized for plotting trajectories for kinetic missile attacks like that.
Anyway that's my imagination running off while at work
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Dreamdancer
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Posted - 2006.06.01 14:40:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Angus McLein So whats the point of this topic? I swear ive read it 4 times over and still dont get it. Heres what I think your saying "I want all Caldari missile ships to have 100% damage bonus to EM, Thermal, Kinetic and Explosive per level because CCP tried to balance the game by only giving Caldari Kinetic because that just happens to be there main missile type."
If you dont see this then ok. But Caldari mainly get Kinetic because thats there reaces preferred damage. As another person said above Its roleplaying. Thats what happens in roleplaying games...someones got to have a bonus somewhere and you cant just go giving a missile bonus to every dmg type to make caldari uber. So CCP had to pick one and based that caldari like Kinetic...thats what they chose.
Amarr doesnt get 500,000% damage bonus to EM thermal kinetic and explosive..and yeah granted they do get 10% damage bonus per level...but you can do the same thing by training your missile skills.
SO either you dont have jack missile skills and want ccp to make missiles uber to 200k sp characters or you fly a raven and want to be able to gank a nossing ship before it gets in range.
OK read your reply and not sure if you haven't had your morning coffee or what but the question is as obvious as your character's receding hairline or mine's chin.
Why is there a limit to the bonus to just kinetic damage?
So far we have determined that it has nothing to do with race as you are saying. Just look at Gal and Minmatar damage types. All over the board. So people please stop that deadline of logic.
There is no racial prefered damage types anymore if there really ever was.
And next NOWHERE do I ask for insane damage bonuses like you are talking about. I am asking for a reason why they are limited to one type of damage when Galente and Minmatar are not.
There is no ingame reason for it. Missiles explode next to your target. The missile skills, all of which I have, explain that clearly. Meaning the ship would have absolutely no effect on one type of damage versus another. Matter of fact. Kinetic would be the least type of damage as the missile never actually strikes the ship. It's explosion does. Sending shrapnel to hit the ship instead. Thus thermal or EM would be more logical.
So instead of being silly make a logical post and give a reason that the others above haven't. Because all of those have fallen short.
ps: guys I really do appreciate your posts. I may disagree with you but without your replies I could not show how this kinetic missile bonus makes no sense. If at antime I came across terse please forgive. Sneaking on to reply while at work and sometimes stress here bleeds over.
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Angus McLein
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Posted - 2006.06.01 14:44:00 -
[28]
Lol I havent had my coffee..and its 2 am here... And my post was probably rather harsh lol. But I just dont see why NOT kinetic. I mean no one in caracals or any other missile ship is complaining. (Dont even know if the caracal has that bonus). And missiles do fine damage kinetic or not.
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Dreamdancer
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Posted - 2006.06.01 14:44:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Onaka
Originally by: Valea Silpha Im happy to go along with the 'Caldari ships are optimiseed for kinetic missiles' reasoning.
Since im fairly certain kinetic missiles don't explode, they just have a weighty inert tip and essentially they just ram the other guy. In that way, other races ships are optimised to make the missile get close and explode/spew plasma/dischager EMP so that the other ship flies into the path of the charge. As such, when they are loaded with a missile that has to use a completely different method of engagement they aren't as efficent, where as caldari as missile ships have the whole 'ram the other guy' thing hardwired into their systems and know how to do it to best effect.
This brings the further idea that as kinetic missiles literally impact the other guy, they could in theory be smashing into more vulnerable parts of the other ships, assuming the ship has enough finesse to get the targetting right.
That's pretty much how I see kinetic missiles too. I could also imagine that kinetic missiles don't have to literally hit their target, but that they'll get close and explode into a well-directed shower of shrapnell that hammers the target.
For Caldari ships being specialized in that, I'd say that they're better at correctly positioning a missile to get maximum effect from the kinetic hailstorm. For example, a kinetic missile chasing after a ship would be less effective than one flying head-on to it and exploding in its face. Perhaps the Caldari ships in question have additional on-board missile guidance that is optimized for plotting trajectories for kinetic missile attacks like that.
Anyway that's my imagination running off while at work
I like it and fills in some holes, but..wouldn't this also help other types of damage? I mean better positioning, aka closer, would be useful to them all don't ya think?
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Dreamdancer
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Posted - 2006.06.01 14:47:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Dreamdancer on 01/06/2006 14:49:48
Originally by: Angus McLein Lol I havent had my coffee..and its 2 am here... And my post was probably rather harsh lol. But I just dont see why NOT kinetic. I mean no one in caracals or any other missile ship is complaining. (Dont even know if the caracal has that bonus). And missiles do fine damage kinetic or not.
lol I actually agree 100%. I don't need or want missiles to be any more powerful and I fly a Raven when missioning. They are plenty effective as is, but I just don't get the reasoning behind the kinetic only. I know the racial thing but they seem to have broken that rule with Gal and Min. While going hardcore with it on Amarr.
edit: Though I do notice I am not getting even one person going "Hey! you know, you're right. Why they do that?" So I guess I'm beating the living hell out of a dead horse.
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