| Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Reply to Topic | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Vincent Gaines
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
136
    |
Posted - 2011.11.21 16:15:00 -
[61] - Quote
Dr Halberstam wrote: GGt although truth be told, that might also be a result of ppl trying to unload product for which there is hardly any demand in most cases
I hate when people refer to something they make as "product." It's a stupid production catchphrase, used incorrectly, and irritating to hear just as "synergy" is in the business world. |
Dr Halberstam
Nine Eyes Medical
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 16:22:00 -
[62] - Quote
Vincent Gaines wrote:Dr Halberstam wrote: GGt although truth be told, that might also be a result of ppl trying to unload product for which there is hardly any demand in most cases I hate when people refer to something they make as "product." It's a stupid production catchphrase, used incorrectly, and irritating to hear just as "synergy" is in the business world.
FYI I use the word "product" to allude to RL drug trafficking as it is portrayed in the television shows like "The Wire" or "Breaking Bad". Characters in that setting call narcotics in general "product". |
Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
34
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 16:33:00 -
[63] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Just chiming in to let you know that this topic is not forgotten by the responsible devs.
Thank you. I urge to read this thread if you haven't already. |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce
67
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 16:45:00 -
[64] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Just chiming in to let you know that this topic is not forgotten by the responsible devs.
now we need a post like this in the FW threads lol |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
DarkSide.
27
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 16:49:00 -
[65] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Just chiming in to let you know that this topic is not forgotten by the responsible devs.
Will we get some reasoning behind these changes as well? And preferably before they hit TQ 
2008, CCP Zulu(park): "command ships are fine as is"
2011, CCP Greyscale: "is the Nighthawk actually underpowered?"
Nice progress, guys. |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
61
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 17:01:00 -
[66] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Just chiming in to let you know that this topic is not forgotten by the responsible devs.
What? We have responsible devs nowadays?
|
pmchem
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
75
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 17:45:00 -
[67] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Just chiming in to let you know that this topic is not forgotten by the responsible devs.
Just bite the bullet and make them candy instead of drugs, and legal to transport/contract/etc in highsec. Without a centralized exchange for production and sale of the drugs (Jita) and easy contracting, there is no liquid market for the item.
Without an easy, liquid market there is no strong incentive to get the raw materials and produce the product except for specialty cases (allied supercap pilots). |
Caulk H0lster
Kazakh Ministry of Wealth Redistribution
40
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 17:45:00 -
[68] - Quote
What many people seem to not realize, is that with MAXED SKILLS, the effects of strong boosters are only slightly less than what is currently in place on TQ, but with the added benefit of zero side effects. We're talking a 2-5% difference compared to what the boosters do NOW with what they do on Sisi with max skills.
That being said...
I have been a booster manufacturer for over a year now. My main is also in an ELITE PVP alliance who REQUIRES boosters for a large amount of our fleets. So now you know where I'm coming from.
Here are my concerns and comments:
- If the current Sisi changes go through, booster demand is going to SKYROCKET. This is pretty common sense since boosters will be far less risky to use for a lot of people afraid of side-effects.
- Gas cloud material supplies aren't expected to change much from what I can gather. Nor is the availability of blueprint copies. Gas cloud prices have already increased from 50%-100%, and it's hard to tell how much BPC prices have increased, because many of them are already very rare, but I have recently paid 150m for a single strong booster BPC, and often paid 100m for strong BPCs, and this was before the changes were announced. (as a side note, I can tell you that someone was manipulating the gas market before these changes were even announced, I really hope CCP looks into this, because it seems like it very well could have been some insider trading)
- What happened to smuggling? I'm not really complaining here, because I think the whole idea of making smuggling a profession might have been a bit half-baked and unrealistic from the point of view of a booster manufacturer. In the end it'll probably just be something ELSE I have to do to get my drugs to market, because I don't see how I can realistically rely on others to do this for me, or for those services to come at a reasonable price. Honestly it just sounds like wishful thinking and ANOTHER FEATURE that CCP can flaunt as reason for people to join/stay with EVE. Maybe I'm wrong and it won't be a cluster****, but knowing CCP I have my concerns about that.
Also, I'd like to add as a more anecdotal comment: Before these changes were announced, booster market demand was minimal, at best. I would often sit on billions of isk worth of stock for months because there just wasn't a lot of people using boosters. Though I was often able to make sales thorough the forums or by other means of setting up private transactions, often the effort and cost involved with delivery was more than it was worth to accomplish. Boosters DO need something to make them more appealing and increase market demand, and these changes have done WONDERS for that. Still, CCP really should consider if they are going to increase demand so substantially for boosters, that they NEED to increase the supply of the materials which the boosters are made of (gas clouds and blueprints, specifically), and may also want to look into adding more diversity to their distribution throughout the galaxy.
Last thing I'll say in this wall of text, I'll just toss some numbers out. Less than a month ago, I made a run of Strong Drop boosters for some m8s. My total production cost, including fuel for the time the POS required to complete the full cycle, was around 12 million per pill (in a run of 50 pills). Because I was selling these to m8s, I sold them all at cost for this run. However, I did another run the following week for the Jita market, and sold them for about 25m each. As you can see, the profit margin is massive, but that also doesn't take into account customs fines, which add up quite a bit. Also Strong Drops have a pretty high profit margin compared to most boosters, so aren't a very good representative sample for all boosters. After the changes went in-place on Sisi, the current Jita price is sitting at about 82 million per pill. I haven't made any since the Sisi changes, but I'd estimate the production cost might have gone up maybe 50% in total, not counting the BPC, which you can't even FIND on the market right now, except for one copy selling for 2 billion, which is pretty hilarious. Still, I think this illustrates what will happen if CCP doesn't address the production material supply chain for boosters, and goes ahead with these changes. In fact, I think booster prices are going to end up at 4-5x as much as they used to be, because everyone will be wanting them and they will just be RARE, because it's going to become very difficult, if not outright impossible to find the supplies to continue to manufacture them. |
Simc0m
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 17:48:00 -
[69] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:Will we get some reasoning behind these changes as well? And preferably before they hit TQ
I assume they want to increase the use of boosters, and by extension drug manufacturing/ gas harvesting/ smuggling, etc. Being from a gas region I am actually pretty excited about this change, as gas mining/ ladar sites are some of the worst isk/hour possible. Belt ratting easily beats gas mining isk/hr, and involves none of the transportation headaches. |
William Loire
Dragon Interdiction Services
15
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 17:48:00 -
[70] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Just chiming in to let you know that this topic is not forgotten by the responsible devs.
The fact of the matter is most people don't use booster's for whatever reason: either the side effects or illegality "scares them" or the cost may be prohibitive for a small boost. This is for the most part a good thing. Boosters as they are now allow pilots to trump the odds in situations they are not expected to win.
Take the recent "Clarion Call 3" video, I'm willing to bet the R&K Archon was using boosters while the AHARM Triage carriers probably were not. This kind of "upset" occurs often in small gang PVP scenarios where boosters (amongst other tactics such as overloading modules) allows an outnumbered team to prevail.
CCP should not be changing the mechanics of boosters themselves, which have been perfect fr the last seven years. They should instead look into improving the ease of extraction or profits for null-sec alliances sitting on ladar sites. At the moment Alliances simply let their gas sources rot rather than extract them. On improvement off the top of my head would be to allow Rorqual's to compress gas or to simply lower gas's volume. If gas becomes easier to transport we might eventually see a flood of gases to the trade hubs which will not only lower prices on boosters across the board but also make the higher level boosters more accessible. |
|
Dr Halberstam
Nine Eyes Medical
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 18:41:00 -
[71] - Quote
Caulk H0lster wrote:Last thing I'll say in this wall of text, I'll just toss some numbers out. [...] As you can see, the profit margin is massive, but that also doesn't take into account customs fines, which add up quite a bit. Also Strong Drops have a pretty high profit margin compared to most boosters, so aren't a very good representative sample for all boosters. After the changes went in-place on Sisi, the current Jita price is sitting at about 82 million per pill. I haven't made any since the Sisi changes, but I'd estimate the production cost might have gone up maybe 50% in total, not counting the BPC, which you can't even FIND on the market right now, except for one copy selling for 2 billion, which is pretty hilarious. Still, I think this illustrates what will happen if CCP doesn't address the production material supply chain for boosters, and goes ahead with these changes. In fact, I think booster prices are going to end up at 4-5x as much as they used to be, because everyone will be wanting them and they will just be RARE, because it's going to become very difficult, if not outright impossible to find the supplies to continue to manufacture them.
i second this wholeheartedly - I have the exact same experience with mindflood, down to the numbers even. Scarcity needs to be adressed, not side effects.
William Loire wrote:CCP should not be changing the mechanics of boosters themselves, which have been perfect fr the last seven years. They should instead look into improving the ease of extraction or profits for null-sec alliances sitting on ladar sites. At the moment Alliances simply let their gas sources rot rather than extract them. On improvement off the top of my head would be to allow Rorqual's to compress gas or to simply lower gas's volume. If gas becomes easier to transport we might eventually see a flood of gases to the trade hubs which will not only lower prices on boosters across the board but also make the higher level boosters more accessible.
And since this total stranger is suggesting the exact same things I posted down to the wording, there might be some truth in there.
Also to further the discussion, another copypaste from FHC on what i fear will happen after the changes:
Dr Halberstam wrote:But what happens [after the change]? Do you see (possibly hostile) alliances trading the ginormous amount of gases involved between each other? Will everyone just ship their gas to Jita? How will alliance X from, say, Tenal, know that if it ships his gas to Jita (instead of simply cooking from it), alliance Y will also ship their gas up from Catch so a mutually beneficial trade can be achieved, and they both get to cook strongs?
I fear of a future with more overpriced cyto and loads of standards, and prices remaining high, and thus demand low. Which is not necessarily a bad thing for some, but still. And yes, to let the cat out of the bag, I realize it is possible to cook from reprocessed standards and such, but still, that speaks volumes of the state of the art, imo
Will there be a publicly available supply to sate demand, or will everyone just hog their gas and be done with it, essentially preserving the status quo as it is now?
I would love to be convinced that it all will be well, but I just cant see it yet
|
Simc0m
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 18:51:00 -
[72] - Quote
Caulk H0lster wrote:
Gas cloud material supplies aren't expected to change much from what I can gather. Nor is the availability of blueprint copies. Gas cloud prices have already increased from 50%-100%, and it's hard to tell how much BPC prices have increased, because many of them are already very rare, but I have recently paid 150m for a single strong booster BPC, and often paid 100m for strong BPCs, and this was before the changes were announced. (as a side note, I can tell you that someone was manipulating the gas market before these changes were even announced, I really hope CCP looks into this, because it seems like it very well could have been some insider trading)
Thanks for your post, it is interesting seeing the manufacturing side of the operation. I hope I can provide some insight, as I am on the supply side.
First, Gas clouds. From my point of view, it really doesn't seem like there is a lack of supply. I live in a gas constellation, and we have mb 8 active gas clouds (out of 10 systems) at any given time. Even though this gas is the MOST expensive gas on the Jita market, it almost never gets harvested, because the isk/hour is not good. To put it in perspective, harvesting gas will net you about 40mln isk/hour, NOT including transportation, etc. Compare this to normal belt ratting, or ANOMs, which net 50-60mln per hour CASH and you can see why nobody mines gas. Even with the current price spike, gas is now just about in line with belt ratting, so although there has been a slight uptick in miners (I saw one yesterday for the first time in months), we will be nowhere near saturation until prices go up another 50% or so.
Second, BPCs. BPCs come from ladar sites, which are pretty common in our region, I scan one down in about 1/4 systems. The problem here is that BPCs are also not very profitable, so running ladar site will net you maybe 20-60mil on average, even after considering that occasionally you luck out and get a nanite control book, or a strong BPC, those are pretty rare. Combat plexes on the other hand are very profitable, with the 10/10 bringing in a cool 500mil-1bil on average, so you can see why many of these ladar sites sit ignored for days and eventually disappear. Now that BPCs are up about 2-3 fold as speculators have moved in, it appears that ladars (at these prices) are actually worth running. Still not as good as normal plexes, but better than belt ratting. This should increase the BPC supply, that is if the demand comes through to meet this increased supply after the expansion.
TLDR: we have plenty of unused supply, both on the gas and BPC front - what we really need is DEMAND, hopefully the winter expansion will bring that.
Caulk: If you need a specific BPC to be listed on the market evemail me (I have hundreds, including dozens of strongs bpcs). |
Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
The Black Armada
44
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 00:25:00 -
[73] - Quote
I think i see a compromise here to increase demand while protecting low-sec PVPers.
As the drug market is now we have different levels of drugs and each level gives a different level of boost to attributes which is kind of stupid as there is no reason not to use strong pills and train out the side effects with skills and implants.
Below is my suggest for booster re-balance.
Strong = Shortest duration + Most side effects (Chance based on all 4 side effects to be imposed all in one go) + biggest boost to attributes (25% boost as they are now) + highest cost of production
Improved = 2nd shortest duration + only 3 side effects (Chance based on each of the 3 side effects imposed) + 2nd biggest boost to attributes + 2nd highest cost of production
standard = 3rd shortest duration + only 2 side effects (Chance based on each of the 2 side effects imposed) + 3rd biggest boost to attributes + 3rd highest cost of production
Synth = longest duration + no side effects + weakest boost to attributes + cheapest cost of production
For the Improved and Standard pills, keep all 4 side effects in place; however, make it chance based on which of the 4 the system picks to impose using the system above. This will keep the devs from having to go trough and balance each of the side effects for the Improved and Standard level pills again which is un necesarry as most PVPers can live with the current type of side effect for each pill. Now they just dont know what they might get once poped
As you can see there is a reason to use each level of the boosters depending on your location and situation and still allows high sec people to pop the pills in a station and keep the high bonuses for the hard core low-sec pvpers |
Rangloff
Lightbringer's Sanctuary
BLACK-MARK
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 00:53:00 -
[74] - Quote
Zendoren wrote:I think i see a compromise here to increase demand while protecting low-sec PVPers. As the drug market is now we have different levels of drugs and each level gives a different level of boost to attributes which is kind of stupid as there is no reason not to use strong pills and train out the side effects with skills and implants. Below is my suggest for booster re-balance. Strong = Shortest duration + Most side effects (Chance based on all 4 side effects to be imposed all in one go) + biggest boost to attributes (25% boost as they are now) + highest cost of production Improved = 2nd shortest duration + only 3 side effects (Chance based on each of the 3 side effects imposed) + 2nd biggest boost to attributes + 2nd highest cost of production standard = 3rd shortest duration + only 2 side effects (Chance based on each of the 2 side effects imposed) + 3rd biggest boost to attributes + 3rd highest cost of production Synth = longest duration + no side effects + weakest boost to attributes + cheapest cost of production For the Improved and Standard pills, keep all 4 side effects in place; however, make it chance based on which of the 4 the system picks to impose using the system above. This will keep the devs from having to go trough and balance each of the side effects for the Improved and Standard level pills again which is un necesarry as most PVPers can live with the current type of side effect for each pill. Now they just dont know what they might get once poped As you can see there is a reason to use each level of the boosters depending on your location and situation and still allows high sec people to pop the pills in a station and keep the high bonuses for the hard core low-sec pvpers
The problem I see with your solution is that it does not make drugs more desirable. I hope the change will create a better market for drugs and increase there use. I for one would like to get into the drug trade however the market for drugs seems to be lacking. If they became more popular, then I would assume we would see more players like myself enter the market to ensure the prices do not over inflate.
I enjoy seeing others interested in this topic like myself, and I hope this constructive discussion may lead to increased visibility of the drug trade. It upsets me that many changes like the hybrids are worthy of a sticky, but boosters get no love.
Lets keep the ideas rolling. I am sure those that are making the changes do not mind borrowing ideas off the forums. (especially now given the current climate at CCP) |
leboe
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 01:18:00 -
[75] - Quote
You can't increase demand (poorly, but that's an argument for others to make) without addressing the REAL issues behind booster scarcity and prices. Gas clouds. Mining them is a terrible mechanic (between 30-50mil per hour, but thats in a 5-turret ship and 5000m3 to deal with)
|
Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
The Black Armada
44
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 02:57:00 -
[76] - Quote
Rangloff wrote:
The problem I see with your solution is that it does not make drugs more desirable. I hope the change will create a better market for drugs and increase there use. I for one would like to get into the drug trade however the market for drugs seems to be lacking. If they became more popular, then I would assume we would see more players like myself enter the market to ensure the prices do not over inflate.
I enjoy seeing others interested in this topic like myself, and I hope this constructive discussion may lead to increased visibility of the drug trade. It upsets me that many changes like the hybrids are worthy of a sticky, but boosters get no love.
Lets keep the ideas rolling. I am sure those that are making the changes do not mind borrowing ideas off the forums. (especially now given the current climate at CCP)
I don't see how this would not increase the usage. It would allow High sec pilots to use boosters (all be it synth and standards until the new contraband enforcement system goes into place) and once the new contraband enforcement system is in place; high sec pilots will be able to carry around the improved and strong boosters as well in their cargo bays with the understanding that if caught they can be shoot at.
Personally, I see this as a perfect way to transition the booster market into the new contraband enforcement system while increasing the usage in high sec and increasing the knowledge of them.
Rangloff, could you give a reason/example as to why this proposal would not increase demand? |
Rangloff
Lightbringer's Sanctuary
BLACK-MARK
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 03:01:00 -
[77] - Quote
leboe wrote:You can't increase demand (poorly, but that's an argument for others to make) without addressing the REAL issues behind booster scarcity and prices. Gas clouds. Mining them is a terrible mechanic (between 30-50mil per hour, but thats in a 5-turret ship and 5000m3 to deal with)
I do not see a problem with mining. I do not mind gas harvesting. I use a hauler to scoop so there is no issue with the size. I believe the isk per hour at the current prices is sufficient enough. However, the raw gas does not move on the market. If the gas moved faster in Jita, I would certainly bring in more loads on a consistent basis.
If the supply was increased, I am afraid that boosters will become another requirement to compete in pvp. Boosters should be items that, like faction/officer mods, are only used to give a pilot the added edge. I am afraid of them becoming similar to faction ammo where everyone uses it.
|
Demon Azrakel
Defiant..
Narwhals Ate My Duck
53
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 05:20:00 -
[78] - Quote
My biggest problem is that a skill that I trained to 5 now hinders me instead of helping me. I don't want the booster to last a long time; the sooner that booster wears out, the sooner I can decide if a different booster is in order (See triage pilot: Mindflood or Blue Pill / Exile Booster). A better change would have been to leave all else the same and change the skill that reduced bad things by 5% per level to 10% or 15% even. 5% reduction per level hardly felt like it was reducing the risk. There should still be non-empire-legality-related risk, just not necessarily so high. That said, I need to find some indy guy to make me some of this stuff... |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous
518
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 05:48:00 -
[79] - Quote
Caulk H0lster wrote:Wall O Text, but a good one.
One thing I should point out is that the current market changes are only indicative of current speculator activity, not necessarily the new booster price standards. Market whores who aren't even involved in manufacturing are getting their grubby hands all up in the booster market right now. Until we see a blog, I'm assuming the changes are still on pencil and not in pen, hopefully CCP is listening to feedback (I wish a Dev could step in and confirm this), which means that things can shift yet again.
Also, I think its important to point out to others here, (I know you know this) that just because a booster is priced at 80 mil in Jita doesn't mean that its actually moving. I've always found with low trade volume items like boosters, list price rarely tells the true value. Check the table instead of the graph - its much more accurate in terms of what people are actually spending on drugs as supposed to what retailers want them to spend.
Personally, I don't want them to flood the game with gas spawns, if it means boosters ending up even cheaper than they were before. Booster manufacturing is rewarding for those that are up for the challenge - it seems ludicrous to haul that much volume around from 8 dangerous corners of New Eden but that's why it should pay well, and it also why many of us enjoy it. Its a chance to travel and explore (and will be great with new nebulas).
There's gotta be a middle ground here - I don't want boosters to be cheap candy (if spawns are everywhere), but they shouldn't be the new officer mods either (which they will be with current changes). Both could easily be the outcome of CCP isn't careful in their consideration of the feedback here.
My biggest fear though, is that usually when a game developer "stealth patches" like this with no acknowledgement or announcement, its because really they've already made up a judgement call and are going to move forward with it regardless of negative feedback. If they were flexible about their vision for boosters, they would have asked us already.
|
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous
518
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 05:52:00 -
[80] - Quote
Demon Azrakel wrote:My biggest problem is that a skill that I trained to 5 now hinders me instead of helping me. I don't want the booster to last a long time; the sooner that booster wears out, the sooner I can decide if a different booster is in order (See triage pilot: Mindflood or Blue Pill / Exile Booster). A better change would have been to leave all else the same and change the skill that reduced bad things by 5% per level to 10% or 15% even. 5% reduction per level hardly felt like it was reducing the risk. There should still be non-empire-legality-related risk, just not necessarily so high. That said, I need to find some indy guy to make me some of this stuff...
Ahhhh an EXCELLENT point.
This is why I've never trained Afterburner to V - its actually a liability if you enjoy dual-prop fits (as I do) or 100mn AB cruiser fits.
The fact that this changes skills so drastically to implement this change, should be the number one reason CCP seeks player feedback - its really unfair to fundamentally change what a skill does, knowing that players spent time on that and can't get it back. Same with the now-useless implants people spent fortunes on.
Personally, if it were me, I would have just spent some time tweaking the side effect combos to make more boosters viable on more fits, or reducing them slightly, and maybe left in the 5% synth boost. Synth clouds are in abundance and changing just the synth boosters would have the desired effect (people would want to upgrade to the dangerous stuff once they get hooked on the "gateway" drug - right now the entry level boosters are ignored because that 3% is pretty negligible in a lot of cases.) |
|
Covert Kitty
SRS Industries
SRS.
33
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 06:09:00 -
[81] - Quote
Quote: A better change would have been to leave all else the same and change the skill that reduced bad things by 5% per level to 10% or 15% even
I agree with this, it's better than removing the effects completely. Though I don't think as it is now is a big deal. In addition as others have pointed out gas clouds are simply not worth mining financially, and the m3 makes ninja harvesting not very easy.
A better smuggling mechanic is also needed, your not going to see much use in highsec if you can't move them around without taking standing hits. However the main thing that is needed is buffing the gas sites in some way, reduce the m3, increase the rate so that harvesting them is worth around 100mil/hr and you will see more interest.
For example it would be nice if solo frigs could profitably go ninja harvest the gas. |
Gevlin
SMANews.net
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
41
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 07:04:00 -
[82] - Quote
AkiRoss wrote:Side effects made boosters unusable for most of the situations. It is far better without side-effects as it is on Sisi. But I definitly agree that "Risk vs Reward", especially for that kind of products, deserve to be looked at.
To keep the counter-effects of boosters, and bring an addictive part :
1. Take a Pill, get the bonus, enjoy it during one hour, without any side-effect (propaganda!)
2. Booster's effects are gone ... headharsh ... side-effects start for the next 48h !
3. You feel bad, you take the same kind of pill (any size except synth), side-effects disapeared, back to point 1 !
4. And so on ...
In my opinion, the side-effects of a Booster should be the same as the bonus. Get +20% capacitor for an hour, get -20% capacitor for the next 48h (-10% for 24h with all skill lvl 5?). At the end, you become totally addict to pills ;)
In real life, when you take drugs, you feel awesome for the next hours ... Then you pay it until the next shot. Same here ;)
I totally like this idea!!
my PVP alt becomes a Miner for a while to wait till the effect rub off. Though the negatives should be a 1/5 of that is proposed here
I agree with several people: CCP needs to focus most of eve's recources on FIS, but the development of WIS still needs to continue, just as a slower and more efficient pace.
In eve I wish to be more than just a machine. |
Rangloff
Lightbringer's Sanctuary
BLACK-MARK
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 08:05:00 -
[83] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
There's gotta be a middle ground here - I don't want boosters to be cheap candy (if spawns are everywhere), but they shouldn't be the new officer mods either (which they will be with current changes).
Could you elaborate on how they will be the new officer mod given the current change proposed? |
Soon Shin
Abyssal Heavy Industries
Narwhals Ate My Duck
9
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 08:19:00 -
[84] - Quote
Rangloff wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
There's gotta be a middle ground here - I don't want boosters to be cheap candy (if spawns are everywhere), but they shouldn't be the new officer mods either (which they will be with current changes).
Could you elaborate on how they will be the new officer mod given the current change proposed?
Pretty much all the strong boosters will be snatched up by the wealthy leaving behind a very small supply are ridiculous prices. Think 30 mil for a strong is crazy? Wait till you pay 100-200 million maybe even more! |
Ryans Revenge
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
10
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 10:18:00 -
[85] - Quote
I have to agree with most people in this thread. Removing side effects does nothing but effectively make drugs "potions" that now everyone has to carry. Meaning all 0.0 pilots are now pillheads.
The real problem with drugs was supply. Not enough gas to bring a lot of them to market and too many obstacles to get them into empire. This is what really needed changing. |
Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
Clockwork Pineapple
39
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 10:57:00 -
[86] - Quote
Demon Azrakel wrote:My biggest problem is that a skill that I trained to 5 now hinders me instead of helping me. I don't want the booster to last a long time; the sooner that booster wears out, the sooner I can decide if a different booster is in order (See triage pilot: Mindflood or Blue Pill / Exile Booster). A better change would have been to leave all else the same and change the skill that reduced bad things by 5% per level to 10% or 15% even. 5% reduction per level hardly felt like it was reducing the risk. There should still be non-empire-legality-related risk, just not necessarily so high. That said, I need to find some indy guy to make me some of this stuff...
This is actually a pretty decent point. Having a slot tied up with Exile is great if I'm flying, say, a solo Myrm while waiting for an op to form up but having that slot tied up for hours until I can consume a Mindflood when the op gets going as a logi for a gang as a direct result of the skills I trained is argh.
Boosters should really remain relatively short burst things.
Also agreeing with Leboe - gas mining mechanics are terrible.
On the same note, I do hope the Cytocerosin clouds aren't going to remain limited to the handful of static locations and considering Synth is cheap and near worthless with these changes Mykoserocin clouds really aren't something I'd go out of my way to harvest were I to probe out a Ladar site.
|
|
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
46
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 12:40:00 -
[87] - Quote
Hey folks, it seems this thread needs some attention.
Let us explain why we are not happy with current state of boosters on Tranquility:
- Unpredictability: that is due to the side-effects being randomly applied when you consume a booster, and that often hampers the very points you are trying to boost. As examples, chance of reducing shield capacity when consuming Blue Pills, missile velocity with Crash, or armor hitpoint / capacitor penalty with Exile. The list goes on, but the important point to remember here is that unpredictable mechanics on a player produced, controlled item do little to promote the usefulness of it in the long run.
- Production complexity: boosters, as short-term consumables, are too time consuming and complex to produce. They require a combination of reactions and manufacturing, while relying on limited supply of skills, gas distributions and commodities to produce.
- Distribution inconsistency: since most of them are illegal, smuggling boosters back into high-sec is highly unreliable due to the bugged and incoherent nature of Customs NPCs.
Basically, boosters are they stand right now should be used more than in just a few niche situations. There are a lot of points to improve, but instead of trying to revamp everything quite blindly in one release, we chose to adopt a more conservative step-by-step approach and see actual consequences before moving on to the next step. That also fits well with our "thousand little things" project, which consists of many, small iterations on existing features.
The changes about to be deployed for Crucible look into their unpredictability, by making them more appealing to a broader portion of our player base. Since they are supposed to be more reliable, we tuned down their effects a bit, while revamping old skills to partly compensate for the change. We also do know this is going to cause prices issue as the production isn't changed for the time being.
To help you understand why this was done and how this fits in our general scheme, here is a glimpse of our long term vision for boosters, smuggling and contraband:
- Production changes: as stated above, iterate on booster production to make them more available, at least on their synth and standard variations. That includes, but is not limited to, gas distribution changes, modifications in the reaction and manufacturing process, remove or adjust some skills.
- Distribution iteration: have a look on how booster components (gases, pure booster reactions and commodities) are moved around, iterate on their illegality status.
- Consumption iteration: look at how boosters are consumed, possibly look into and replace unpredictable side-effects by addiction mechanics (remember, first one is free).
- Smuggling improvements: possibly remove Custom NPCs, and move the act of scanning and seizing contraband into player hands. Coupled with the points above, make smuggling of large illegal goods or more potent boosters challenging but rewarding in low/high-security space, turn booster distribution into an emergent, player controlled system that is easy to get into, but difficult to control and profit from. And finally, look into ways to promote low-security and fringes of high-security space as main sources of smuggling, contraband production and distribution.
Remember all of this remains soonGds material and are no way fixed in stone right now. We just wanted to be a bit more transparent on why this change is happening and which goals we are attempting to reach.
Note: Alchemist and Edge implant sets are an oversight that are being looked into. Fix will most likely not make it for Crucible release, but shortly after, so we advise you to hold on to them.
Hope that helps. |
|
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
35
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 12:52:00 -
[88] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hope that helps.
it does ! |
Cailais
Rekall Incorporated
128
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 13:29:00 -
[89] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
- Production changes: as stated above, iterate on booster production to make them more available, at least on their synth and standard variations. That includes, but is not limited to, gas distribution changes, modifications in the reaction and manufacturing process, remove or adjust some skills.
- Distribution iteration: have a look on how booster components (gases, pure booster reactions and commodities) are moved around, iterate on their illegality status.
- Consumption iteration: look at how boosters are consumed, possibly look into and replace unpredictable side-effects by addiction mechanics (remember, first one is free).
- Smuggling improvements: possibly remove Custom NPCs, and move the act of scanning and seizing contraband into player hands. Coupled with the points above, make smuggling of large illegal goods or more potent boosters challenging but rewarding in low/high-security space, turn booster distribution into an emergent, player controlled system that is easy to get into, but difficult to control and profit from. And finally, look into ways to promote low-security and fringes of high-security space as main sources of smuggling, contraband production and distribution.
Remember all of this remains soonGds material and are no way fixed in stone right now. We just wanted to be a bit more transparent on why this change is happening and which goals we are attempting to reach. Hope that helps.
Its possible that 'good' boosters will generate a user need/addiction in and of themselves - players could, conceivably, become so accustomed to using them that they can't do without them. Finding and exploiting the raw ingredients and then manufacturing the product is not really a straight forward process as it stands with gas clouds being restricted to specific null sec constellations and only certain gas types being available in them. This makes 'mining gas' a difficult proposition.
My personal view is that the raw ingredients should be common place enough - with a more involved industrial process the further up the potency tree you go. Poor quality boosters should have some disadvantages - after all they're less refined, less 'pure' and therefore have a bigger 'hangover' effect, but they would be comparatively common place. Stronger, purer boosters should have limited or no side effects, but are harder to manufacture and need more esoteric materials.
In terms of smuggling I think a suitable approach would be that star gates scan, and record a vessel transiting through them. This process would be largely invisible to a player but common sense rules would apply (high sec gates are more likely to detect boosters, null sec gates less so). As a player progresses through various system gates they would accrue a 'residue' of alarms that would eventually set them to a 'flashy red' status. This removes the rather impractical task of trying to scan cloaked haulers / ceptors zipping through systems with their holds full of booster goodness.
Id rather see something of this nature implemented than just a flat 'booster boost' :)
C. |
Bomberlocks
CTRL-Q
55
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 13:36:00 -
[90] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Hey folks, it seems this thread needs some attention.
......
Basically, boosters are they stand right now should be used more than in just a few niche situations. There are a lot of points to improve, but instead of trying to revamp everything quite blindly in one release, we chose to adopt a more conservative step-by-step approach and see actual consequences before moving on to the next step. That also fits well with our "thousand little things" project, which consists of many, small iterations on existing features.
The changes about to be deployed for Crucible look into their unpredictability, by making them more appealing to a broader portion of our player base. Since they are supposed to be more reliable, we tuned down their effects a bit, while revamping old skills to partly compensate for the change. We also do know this is going to cause prices issue as the production isn't changed for the time being.
........
Hope that helps.
Ytterbium, you do realise that you are making the cost of PvP go up radically, at least in the short term and in the long term, it will make drugs an obligatory item that you cannot undock without?
Have you thought about the effect on newer players? It is already practically impossible for newer players to enter into PvP until they have both the ISK and the skills to fit rigs and T2 weapons and mods. It has become practically obligatory for gangs to fly with T3 boosting alts. With these changes it will be obligatory to consume drugs to partake in realistic PvP and adds yet another layer of complexity that newer players are going to have to understand.
I don't know what the effect of this will be, but I suspect that the ranks of beginner PvP corps will thin out and losec will be even emptier than it already is outside of FW hub areas. It will give big alliances and even greater advantage because they will be able to afford the obligatory drugs on each combat roam.
Considering the cost of the higher tier drugs, improved and strong, and the large difference between them and the lower tiers, it is going to disadvantage more people than it advantage.
Please don't do another Tier 3 BC on us. |
|
|
|
| |
Reply to Topic |
| Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |