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Maeltstome
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
428
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 12:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm returning after a relatively long break to find a lot of changes. Universally people seem to Dislike the new Rapid Light Missile Launcher.
The change seemed like an interesting idea: A front loaded damage module aimed at killing lighter targets (e.g. they have small health pools so 'burst' damage is more effective).
In practice, why do they suck? |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
14935
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 12:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:I'm returning after a relatively long break to find a lot of changes. Universally people seem to Dislike the new Rapid Light Missile Launcher.
The change seemed like an interesting idea: A front loaded damage module aimed at killing lighter targets (e.g. they have small health pools so 'burst' damage is more effective).
In practice, why do they suck?
because people were used to being able to use the previously somewhat OP RLML to murder frigates more easily. Now they have to think a bit, and you know how angry get when they're asked to do that.
1 Kings 12:11
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Maeltstome
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
428
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 12:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
I get that people can be but-hurt, but really they now output as much DPS as HAM's but without the massive sig radius or low range.
The trade-off of less uptime seems almost trivial given how much more DPS they do? |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1153
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 13:03:00 -
[4] - Quote
They're more frustrating than bad now. Sitting there watching the launchers blink during reload for 35 s can be so frustrating that some people just forget their DPS output during the previous 50 s. The inability to rapidly load the correct missile type is also a real pain. |
Chessur
Amarrian Nublet Team Amarrica
325
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 14:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Maeltstome wrote:I'm returning after a relatively long break to find a lot of changes. Universally people seem to Dislike the new Rapid Light Missile Launcher.
The change seemed like an interesting idea: A front loaded damage module aimed at killing lighter targets (e.g. they have small health pools so 'burst' damage is more effective).
In practice, why do they suck? because people were used to being able to use the previously somewhat OP RLML to murder frigates more easily. Now they have to think a bit, and you know how angry get when they're asked to do that.
Its comical that you hold these opinions, and are willing to express them with such assurance. You have never used RLM ships to any extent, and your 'PvP experience' is limited to 20+ man fleets, assigning drones and sitting back. RLMs were never OP. They were the only valid missile choice for some time- after the HML and HAM changes. RLM's stopped the proliferation of inty / EAF blobs, and allowed solo / small gang players the ability to engage these groups.
Nowadays, the RLM weapon system is completely useless. A super long reload time, prevents you from changing your damage type, which with a missile based weapon system is huge. RLM"s didn't have that great of DPS anyway, so changing damage based on your target was a very important factor.
With the inflexibility of the missile system now, its a complete joke of a weapon system. Only suitable to gang warfare, and completely out of the questions for small gang / solo
Malcanis, stop giving the typical bullshit response of 'think a bit' or about people getting mad. You are speaking way outside of your depth here. |
Maeltstome
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
428
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
Chessur wrote:Malcanis wrote:Maeltstome wrote:I'm returning after a relatively long break to find a lot of changes. Universally people seem to Dislike the new Rapid Light Missile Launcher.
The change seemed like an interesting idea: A front loaded damage module aimed at killing lighter targets (e.g. they have small health pools so 'burst' damage is more effective).
In practice, why do they suck? because people were used to being able to use the previously somewhat OP RLML to murder frigates more easily. Now they have to think a bit, and you know how angry get when they're asked to do that. Its comical that you hold these opinions, and are willing to express them with such assurance. You have never used RLM ships to any extent, and your 'PvP experience' is limited to 20+ man fleets, assigning drones and sitting back. RLMs were never OP. They were the only valid missile choice for some time- after the HML and HAM changes. RLM's stopped the proliferation of inty / EAF blobs, and allowed solo / small gang players the ability to engage these groups. Nowadays, the RLM weapon system is completely useless. A super long reload time, prevents you from changing your damage type, which with a missile based weapon system is huge. RLM"s didn't have that great of DPS anyway, so changing damage based on your target was a very important factor. With the inflexibility of the missile system now, its a complete joke of a weapon system. Only suitable to gang warfare, and completely out of the questions for small gang / solo Malcanis, stop giving the typical bullshit response of 'think a bit' or about people getting mad. You are speaking way outside of your depth here.
I think the changing ammo types is a good example of how this mechanic has real world application issues - however i'm not convinced it's a huge nerf to dps. This is a copy-pasta from a spread sheet that represents The number of missiles fire by each launcher over a period of time. The top value is default, each subsequent value represents a 10% reduction in cycle time on the previous ROF all the way down to the equivalent of a Cerberus (25% rof) with perfect skills and 3x BCS. It's delimited with spaces if you want to do text-to-column.
RoF_OldRoF_NewTT20_OldTT20_NewReloadMissiles_For_RML 9.66.41921283516.97916667 8.645.76172.8115.23517.38425926 7.7765.184155.52103.683517.83436214 6.99844.6656139.96893.3123518.33447645 6.298564.19904125.971283.98083518.89015902 5.6687043.779136113.3740875.582723519.5075841 5.10183363.4012224102.03667268.0244483520.19361196 4.591650243.0611001691.833004861.22200323520.95586514 4.1324852162.75499014482.6497043255.099802883521.80281312 3.7192366942.4794911374.3847338949.589822593522.74386643
What does it say?
Basically: Until you drop the RoF of the RLML to under 3 seconds per cycle, the damage remains unchanged or increased against an old RLML even with the 35 sec reload time. The difference is that you front-load the damage which should be better for hit-and-run or overloading peoples tank-per-second.
Feel free to correct me, this is all math and i haven't used the module yet. |
Maeltstome
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
428
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 15:28:00 -
[7] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Chessur wrote:Malcanis wrote:Maeltstome wrote:I'm returning after a relatively long break to find a lot of changes. Universally people seem to Dislike the new Rapid Light Missile Launcher.
The change seemed like an interesting idea: A front loaded damage module aimed at killing lighter targets (e.g. they have small health pools so 'burst' damage is more effective).
In practice, why do they suck? because people were used to being able to use the previously somewhat OP RLML to murder frigates more easily. Now they have to think a bit, and you know how angry get when they're asked to do that. Its comical that you hold these opinions, and are willing to express them with such assurance. You have never used RLM ships to any extent, and your 'PvP experience' is limited to 20+ man fleets, assigning drones and sitting back. RLMs were never OP. They were the only valid missile choice for some time- after the HML and HAM changes. RLM's stopped the proliferation of inty / EAF blobs, and allowed solo / small gang players the ability to engage these groups. Nowadays, the RLM weapon system is completely useless. A super long reload time, prevents you from changing your damage type, which with a missile based weapon system is huge. RLM"s didn't have that great of DPS anyway, so changing damage based on your target was a very important factor. With the inflexibility of the missile system now, its a complete joke of a weapon system. Only suitable to gang warfare, and completely out of the questions for small gang / solo Malcanis, stop giving the typical bullshit response of 'think a bit' or about people getting mad. You are speaking way outside of your depth here. I think the changing ammo types is a good example of how this mechanic has real world application issues - however i'm not convinced it's a huge nerf to dps. Below is a copy-pasta from a spread sheet that represents The number of missiles fire by each launcher over a period of time. The top value is default, each subsequent value represents a 10% reduction in cycle time on the previous ROF all the way down to the equivalent of a Cerberus (25% rof) with perfect skills and 3x BCS. It's delimited with spaces if you want to do text-to-column. RoF_OldRoF_NewTT20_OldTT20_NewReloadMissiles_For_RML 9.66.41921283516.97916667 8.645.76172.8115.23517.38425926 7.7765.184155.52103.683517.83436214 6.99844.6656139.96893.3123518.33447645 6.298564.19904125.971283.98083518.89015902 5.6687043.779136113.3740875.582723519.5075841 5.10183363.4012224102.03667268.0244483520.19361196 4.591650243.0611001691.833004861.22200323520.95586514 4.1324852162.75499014482.6497043255.099802883521.80281312 3.7192366942.4794911374.3847338949.589822593522.74386643 What does it say? Basically: Until you drop the RoF of the RLML to under 3 seconds per cycle, the damage remains unchanged or increased against an old RLML even with the 35 sec reload time. The difference is that you front-load the damage which should be better for hit-and-run or overloading peoples tank-per-second. Feel free to correct me, this is all math and i haven't used the module yet.
|
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
4
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 16:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
They are not bad, but they are more niche now instead of the previous default medium sized missile system. |
Silvetica Dian
Manson Family Advent of Fate
901
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 16:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
Every caracal i have engaged in the last 2 months was RLML fit. I have 2 rapid light caracals in my hanger. They might not always be the best option any more (which was stupid) but they are still the best option for certain engagement types and i have them on standby for those occaisions. Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85 |
Maeltstome
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
429
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 16:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
Silvetica Dian wrote:Every caracal i have engaged in the last 2 months was RLML fit. I have 2 rapid light caracals in my hanger. They might not always be the best option any more (which was stupid) but they are still the best option for certain engagement types and i have them on standby for those occaisions.
In the case of a Caracal, RLML's are better now than they where before... Except if you want to change ammo type. |
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Denuo Secus
243
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 17:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
Silvetica Dian wrote:Every caracal i have engaged in the last 2 months was RLML fit. I have 2 rapid light caracals in my hanger. They might not always be the best option any more (which was stupid) but they are still the best option for certain engagement types and i have them on standby for those occaisions.
Because on a Caracal, RLMLs are the only sane option. At least solo and very small gang. Both other medium missile systems are just subpar or inflexible (bad for solo).
HAMs are hard to fit together with tank. Other than turrets, the close range, high damage launcher needs more power grid compared to the long range version. Speaking of them, HMs are over nerfed imho. They need quite some support to hit even equally sized (moving) targets. But if support is available I'm in a fleet. In a fleet I'm almost always better off with insta-damage turrets anyhow. So I don't really see any reason to use HMs at all right now.
Regarding the performance of RLMLs, I agree with Gypsio. I used them a lot in the past. They are not really bad but frustrating. DPS wise (including reaload) they are not that much worse compared to the old value. Ammo change is a real issue tho. But one could argue other weapon system cannot change their damage type at all. So moot point. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1903
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 17:10:00 -
[12] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote: I think the changing ammo types is a good example of how this mechanic has real world application issues - however i'm not convinced it's a huge nerf to dps. This is a copy-pasta from a spread sheet that represents The number of missiles fire by each launcher over a period of time. The top value is default, each subsequent value represents a 10% reduction in cycle time on the previous ROF all the way down to the equivalent of a Cerberus (25% rof) with perfect skills and 3x BCS. It's delimited with spaces if you want to do text-to-column.
RoF_OldRoF_NewTT20_OldTT20_NewReloadMissiles_For_RML 9.66.41921283516.97916667 8.645.76172.8115.23517.38425926 7.7765.184155.52103.683517.83436214 6.99844.6656139.96893.3123518.33447645 6.298564.19904125.971283.98083518.89015902 5.6687043.779136113.3740875.582723519.5075841 5.10183363.4012224102.03667268.0244483520.19361196 4.591650243.0611001691.833004861.22200323520.95586514 4.1324852162.75499014482.6497043255.099802883521.80281312 3.7192366942.4794911374.3847338949.589822593522.74386643
What does it say?
Basically: Until you drop the RoF of the RLML to under 3 seconds per cycle, the damage remains unchanged or increased against an old RLML even with the 35 sec reload time. The difference is that you front-load the damage which should be better for hit-and-run or overloading peoples tank-per-second.
Feel free to correct me, this is all math and i haven't used the module yet.
i haven't checked your numbers, but assuming you're right, how many cruiser sized ships are there that have a light missile damage bonus rather than a RLML RoF bonus? also, my pyfu tells me that a typical caracal is at around 2.6s cycles, which is terribad for rlml. essentially, if you do not manage to kill your target with the 15-20k damage you have in your launchers (which is admittedly enough to kill most frigs), you are at their mercy and unlikely to survive until you can fire again.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Maeltstome
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
429
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 17:26:00 -
[13] - Quote
You're right about the caracal, i didn't realise the bonus was ROF. Its 3.2s Refire rate with perfect skills and no BCS. Add 1 BCS and you will have a net gain of 1 missile per full-cycle on the old RLML's versus the new system.
Damage rigs would seem to shine in this particular instance.
With no RoF bonus, it seems like the new mechanic will perform better until you hit 3BCS, then it's about even. I suppose you could surmise that due to the change, BCS's RoF bonus is sub-optimal due to the long reload, but damage gained from rigs would be significantly higher and free up more low slots for other mods.
More and more this seems like it has a lot of flavour
*** Also you would take the same ammount of time to fire 21 missiles form the old RLML on a BCS'd caracal than you currently do to fire 20 missiles and spend 35 secs reloading... i'd argue that the 'survive until reload' argument is invalid due to you firing roughly the same number of missiles over the same time period, the waiting for reload seems to be very much a mental handicap rather than a mathematical handicap - assuming you have the correct ammo loaded for the start of the fight and don't need to change. at best it seems you loose 10% dps or 2 missiles per launcher over the course of a full fire-reload cycle on an RoF bonused ship with perfect skills and 3x BCS. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1903
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 17:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:*** Also you would take the same ammount of time to fire 21 missiles form the old RLML on a BCS'd caracal than you currently do to fire 20 missiles and spend 35 secs reloading... i'd argue that the 'survive until reload' argument is invalid due to you firing roughly the same number of missiles over the same time period, the waiting for reload seems to be very much a mental handicap rather than a mathematical handicap - assuming you have the correct ammo loaded for the start of the fight and don't need to change. at best it seems you loose 10% dps or 2 missiles per launcher over the course of a full fire-reload cycle on an RoF bonused ship with perfect skills and 3x BCS.
you are right in theory of course, but in practice, there might be a problem where the RLMLs provide your opponent with an obvious and relatively easy to exploit sweet spot: if he can bring up 20k EHP, he can be 99% sure of a 90 second window to apply whatever dps he has. in other words, it may become trivial to fit a specialized caracal killer that is still viable in other situations.
i have no horse in this race myself, but if i saw a lot of RLML action going on (which i don't), this would be the first thing i would look into.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Maeltstome
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
429
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 17:58:00 -
[15] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Maeltstome wrote:*** Also you would take the same ammount of time to fire 21 missiles form the old RLML on a BCS'd caracal than you currently do to fire 20 missiles and spend 35 secs reloading... i'd argue that the 'survive until reload' argument is invalid due to you firing roughly the same number of missiles over the same time period, the waiting for reload seems to be very much a mental handicap rather than a mathematical handicap - assuming you have the correct ammo loaded for the start of the fight and don't need to change. at best it seems you loose 10% dps or 2 missiles per launcher over the course of a full fire-reload cycle on an RoF bonused ship with perfect skills and 3x BCS. you are right in theory of course, but in practice, there might be a problem where the RLMLs provide your opponent with an obvious and relatively easy to exploit sweet spot: if he can bring up 20k EHP, he can be 99% sure of a 90 second window to apply whatever dps he has. in other words, it may become trivial to fit a specialized caracal killer that is still viable in other situations. i have no horse in this race myself, but if i saw a lot of RLML action going on (which i don't), this would be the first thing i would look into.
I understand where the logic of that comes from - but i'm still a little fuzzy on the practicality. You don't do any less damage in those 90 seconds, but perhaps if they have a burst tank (such as an ASB) they will run it until you need to reload then start reloading their ASB.
Something like that? |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1903
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 18:20:00 -
[16] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:Maeltstome wrote:*** Also you would take the same ammount of time to fire 21 missiles form the old RLML on a BCS'd caracal than you currently do to fire 20 missiles and spend 35 secs reloading... i'd argue that the 'survive until reload' argument is invalid due to you firing roughly the same number of missiles over the same time period, the waiting for reload seems to be very much a mental handicap rather than a mathematical handicap - assuming you have the correct ammo loaded for the start of the fight and don't need to change. at best it seems you loose 10% dps or 2 missiles per launcher over the course of a full fire-reload cycle on an RoF bonused ship with perfect skills and 3x BCS. you are right in theory of course, but in practice, there might be a problem where the RLMLs provide your opponent with an obvious and relatively easy to exploit sweet spot: if he can bring up 20k EHP, he can be 99% sure of a 90 second window to apply whatever dps he has. in other words, it may become trivial to fit a specialized caracal killer that is still viable in other situations. i have no horse in this race myself, but if i saw a lot of RLML action going on (which i don't), this would be the first thing i would look into. I understand where the logic of that comes from - but i'm still a little fuzzy on the practicality. You don't do any less damage in those 90 seconds, but perhaps if they have a burst tank (such as an ASB) they will run it until you need to reload then start reloading their ASB. Something like that?
that's a good example yes. if you have the means, just try to plot a graph with the caracals average dps for time windows between 0 seconds and, say, three minutes. again, i am not certain, but i strongly suspect that there are a lot of solo ships or small, cheap frigate gangs that can fit into the valleys that occur during the reload cycles. for example a gang of two cheap t1 blaster catalysts may have enough combined EHP for one of them to survive into reload while their dps are easily enough to kill the caracal in 90 seconds.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Maeltstome
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
429
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 18:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:that's a good example yes. if you have the means, just try to plot a graph with the caracals average dps for time windows between 0 seconds and, say, three minutes. again, i am not certain, but i strongly suspect that there are a lot of solo ships or small, cheap frigate gangs that can fit into the valleys that occur during the reload cycles. for example a gang of two cheap t1 blaster catalysts may have enough combined EHP for one of them to survive into reload while their dps are easily enough to kill the caracal in 90 seconds.
Well if they can survive 90 seconds against the burst of the new RLML's then they will be able to survive the old RLML's for 90 seconds
The difference is if they *can't* then you take 1 dps off the field in half the time it used to take, decreasing their effective DPS significantly for the time it takes to reload.
Am i making sense or have i gone off at a tangent? |
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
122
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 18:39:00 -
[18] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Maeltstome wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:Maeltstome wrote:*** Also you would take the same ammount of time to fire 21 missiles form the old RLML on a BCS'd caracal than you currently do to fire 20 missiles and spend 35 secs reloading... i'd argue that the 'survive until reload' argument is invalid due to you firing roughly the same number of missiles over the same time period, the waiting for reload seems to be very much a mental handicap rather than a mathematical handicap - assuming you have the correct ammo loaded for the start of the fight and don't need to change. at best it seems you loose 10% dps or 2 missiles per launcher over the course of a full fire-reload cycle on an RoF bonused ship with perfect skills and 3x BCS. you are right in theory of course, but in practice, there might be a problem where the RLMLs provide your opponent with an obvious and relatively easy to exploit sweet spot: if he can bring up 20k EHP, he can be 99% sure of a 90 second window to apply whatever dps he has. in other words, it may become trivial to fit a specialized caracal killer that is still viable in other situations. i have no horse in this race myself, but if i saw a lot of RLML action going on (which i don't), this would be the first thing i would look into. I understand where the logic of that comes from - but i'm still a little fuzzy on the practicality. You don't do any less damage in those 90 seconds, but perhaps if they have a burst tank (such as an ASB) they will run it until you need to reload then start reloading their ASB. Something like that? that's a good example yes. if you have the means, just try to plot a graph with the caracals average dps for time windows between 0 seconds and, say, three minutes. again, i am not certain, but i strongly suspect that there are a lot of solo ships or small, cheap frigate gangs that can fit into the valleys that occur during the reload cycles. for example a gang of two cheap t1 blaster catalysts may have enough combined EHP for one of them to survive into reload while their dps are easily enough to kill the caracal in 90 seconds.
2 Destoyers killing a cruiser is not an entirely awful situation. Especially if they have to pay one of the destros to accomplish it. The no ammo switching is rough. The reload timer is all in the pilots head. HAMs are actually pretty good, especially on the Caracal and Cerb. HMLs are in a bad place right now.
If they could find a way around the ammo type issue I think most of the complaining would go away. They could make it so trying to switch ammo while charges were still in the launcher resulted in a 5 second timer with the new ammo replacing only the number previous loaded charges. Now to get a full load of different charges would require the 35 second reload time and another 5 second ammo switch but that seems like a sacrifice most would make for 5 sec ammo switches. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1903
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 18:49:00 -
[19] - Quote
ok i will stop speculating now and go home to do the math for myself.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Valleria Darkmoon
Convicts and Savages Shadow Cartel
218
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 19:14:00 -
[20] - Quote
RLML are not automatically the go to weapon especially for solo these days, I feel like Heavies could be a much better weapon choice if to compensate for their dps nerf they were given a bit of an application buff.
That being said my corp has used paired RLML Cerbs on quite a few roams of late because they do very well in an anti-support role. Interceptors can be hard to kill with anything else unless they make a mistake and there's no e-war (TDs) that can be used against RLMLs to reduce their damage if you can't prevent a lock, so if you are using interceptors to tackle or really have any small hulls in your gang the Cerbs will make quick work of it and their dps is still OK against larger hulls if not sustainable. Scouts will allow you to swap damage types as you jump and warp making you ready to fight by the time you land so the inability to switch damage types is a big deal for solo, not so much otherwise.
Chessur often points out things that are correct but the scenarios he uses and points he makes are often oversimplified or exaggerated. Everything he says is worth considering but try to think about the things he's talking about as they would work out in most of the scenarios you encounter every day as opposed to the one he presents. Most ships are easy enough to predict any resistance holes and if they are not on the gate as you jump in d-scan will allow you to change damage types before you fight instead of during for example. Which is not to say the worst case scenario of jumping into an armor tanked gang while you have EM loaded isn't possible but rather that you are not always going to have to swap damage types in a fight. |
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Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
345
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 20:32:00 -
[21] - Quote
They also suck for PvE. They were pretty good in frig-heavy sites/missions before (as they should be...) but now they're just frustrating to use and obnoxious. Part of this is because the RoF is so fast that you're almost guaranteed to lose volleys, part of it is because sitting there waiting for a reload while the thing you were attacking reps back to full armor is really frustrating. |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1615
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 21:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
I didn't use RLML ships before they got changed. So my opinion is of dubious worth. I will add that the Bellicose has been a very pleasant surprise. I use two TP and a hydraulic bay thruster, flare, and rigor for the rigs. I also have missile implants aplenty for low-sec work. It eats t1 and navy faction ships like a chainsaw. It will spend most or all of a clip on a hawk but it will take it down. I even used nova Fury (540 DPS for 40 seconds) and took out a dual rep Thorax. On the other side of the coin a dual rep Thorax finally took out the Bellicose, but deep in structure. The first guy hit his reps too late I guess. |
Maeltstome
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
429
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 10:46:00 -
[23] - Quote
Getting a dual rep thorax into structure is impressive - With less DPS (e.g. old RLML's) you may not have even broken his tank... |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
219
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 11:51:00 -
[24] - Quote
I had an older version of EFT lying around. So I made a comparison:
Test subject is Caracal with 5 RLML 3xbcs
Both examples with reload time included, without / with OH:
Old, navy ammo => 211/247 dps New, navy ammo => 196/215 dps
Old, Fury => 257 / 301 dps New, Fury => 239 / 262dps
So approximately %15 reduction in long term dps for the new RLML, by gaining ability to frontload its damage.
RLML's have a huge advantage in application of damage. They can reach 40k (60k on caracal) and immune to TD's. Can hit the frigs that are close and far. I think the "nerf" to them is ok.
Another interresting point is the scythe fleet issue and navy osprey. Since they get straight damage bonuses, their non overheated damage output over long time is actually boosted by this change.
Scifi/Osprey Old Fury => 234/274 Scifi/Osprey New Fury => 240/266
Scifi obviously has the advantage of 5 light drones which will keep pounding on the enemy during the reload time. |
Malkaedofiz
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
1
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 01:35:00 -
[25] - Quote
RLML bad Because good PVP is not for some people ))) |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
11027
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 14:49:00 -
[26] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:They also suck for PvE. They were pretty good in frig-heavy sites/missions before (as they should be...) but now they're just frustrating to use and obnoxious. Part of this is because the RoF is so fast that you're almost guaranteed to lose volleys, part of it is because sitting there waiting for a reload while the thing you were attacking reps back to full armor is really frustrating.
For level 2 missions they are very effective. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
1042
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 16:08:00 -
[27] - Quote
Their reload time is horrible.
It is a nightmare if you have like explosive loaded and a T2 amarr ship shows. |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
355
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 20:09:00 -
[28] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: For level 2 missions they are very effective.
Not nearly as effective as an assault frig with light missiles. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
11028
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 22:03:00 -
[29] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:baltec1 wrote: For level 2 missions they are very effective.
Not nearly as effective as an assault frig with light missiles.
Oh they are. A rapid cruiser will pump out more firepower, faster and has the fitting room to play with that lets it warp faster than an assault frig. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome Caldari State Capturing
1066
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 00:12:00 -
[30] - Quote
Recently I have tried Rapid Lights again. They are still no good.
The big problem with RLMs now is that you can't swap out damage type before taking a fight due to the silly reload time.
They have taken the fun out of 'Will I engage this fleet or won't I' when you are flying with them.
It is now 'Do I have the right Ammo for this loaded right at this time?? Oh Nope - Oh well guess there won't be any pew' Or 'Yes I have the right ammo but there is 2 cruisers in there who can swap out damage types and apply damage for all of the fight - Ill just die during reload - Oh well guess there won't be any pew'
When it is commonly faster to dock to change ammo than reload it from the cargo bay - There is an obvious problem that needs fixing/rebalance.
There is no point taking on larger fleets or even equal sized ships with in RML ships.
You will usually die during reload. So best not to use them unless it is to do cheap ganks on frigates or a few dessies when you are 100% sure no backup is on the way.
They were fine before the change and not changed for balance reasons. They were changed to add some 'variety' to weapon systems which has proved to be a bad move.
Hopefully CCP look at Rapid Missiles again and make them worth fitting. Docked since 2009. |
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