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Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters
1042
|
Posted - 2014.02.21 23:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
Duke Wendo wrote:I would like to see POS/ stations broken down into more components so that small- medium gangs can threaten more in a system.
The ship/ ammo building facilities, research, P.I - all that stuff should not be allowed inside a station or a force field where it is protected from all but the most dedicated attackers.
The 'farms and fields' idea that is thrown around so much makes a lot of sense to me as well as the ability of null sec alliances to project their power so far across the void.
These changes would mean people would have to be active in their home systems if they wanted to defend them and if they didn't then people like us could constantly raid them.
The bigger power blocks could still blue doughnut each other but they would not be able to project pilots all over the place to blob everything into TiDi hell.
Wormhole entities would be in the same position in terms of defending their systems from raiders.
People could still POS/ station up when the enemy fleet was too big to handle but then their industry and stuff would be vunerable to attackers and the attackers might even gain something from attacking.
I didn't want to **** up my ideas thread with discussion, so allow me to respond.
Your idea for having people be active to have to defend is fine in theory, but what about time zone differences? To expect a small corp to be able to defend themselves now is hard enough, but if their tz is totally opposite of yours, it would be virtually impossible to have any defense against anyone with what you are proposing. The only thing that gives the smaller corps any hope is the effort it takes to smash a pos/system. Taking the bulk of that away would not encourage anyone to stay in wh space once all their stuff is gone.
No trolling please |
TurboX3
V0LTA Triumvirate.
48
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 00:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
Bane we love you, I think you are now the official forum warrior! No Trolling Please |
Proclus Diadochu
Obstergo Red Coat Conspiracy
1068
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 00:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
TurboX3 wrote:Bane we love you, I think you are now the official forum warrior!
You don't have the authority to grant that title. Wormhole Minister of High Society Superior General | Order of Rob Minor @autoritare | The Diogenes Club |
Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters
1042
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 00:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
TurboX3 wrote:Bane we love you, I think you are now the official forum warrior!
Only when the weather completely takes a dump on all sports activities at work. No trolling please |
Proclus Diadochu
Obstergo Red Coat Conspiracy
1069
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 01:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
I'd like to take a "non-troll" approach to this thread. Ignore my first post.
Quote:I would like to see POS/ stations broken down into more components so that small- medium gangs can threaten more in a system.
In my recommendation to Bane, I said "settlements". I agree with your idea, and I think that wormholes would benefit with allowing options that create infrastructure and elevate a wormhole from a barren field/forest to a town/settlement. Creating components that are engagable intice would-be invaders.
Quote:The ship/ ammo building facilities, research, P.I - all that stuff should not be allowed inside a station or a force field where it is protected from all but the most dedicated attackers.
The 'farms and fields' idea that is thrown around so much makes a lot of sense to me as well as the ability of null sec alliances to project their power so far across the void.
I wrote an article about farms and fields for nullsec ages ago and I think something similar would be good for wormholes, but only at a system level of course.
Quote:These changes would mean people would have to be active in their home systems if they wanted to defend them and if they didn't then people like us could constantly raid them.
I agree with Bane to a degree that TZ's would create an issue with this idea, however timers have been the historic answer to this issue, but also, to properly implement a conflict driver to wormhole farms and fields, we would need something drive visitors to attack inhabitants, while making it lucrative for inhabitants to build the structures.
Quote:Wormhole entities would be in the same position in terms of defending their systems from raiders.
People could still POS/ station up when the enemy fleet was too big to handle but then their industry and stuff would be vunerable to attackers and the attackers might even gain something from attacking.
Yes. Make it lucrative to build a settlement, requiring the settlers to protect their home, but also make it lucrative to invade. CONFLICT DRIVERS. Wormhole Minister of High Society Superior General | Order of Rob Minor @autoritare | The Diogenes Club |
Quinn Corvez
Probe Patrol Awakened.
212
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 09:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
Calling someone out like this is a **** move IMO. You should have just responded in your own thread.
FYI, it is not our job to design and balance the game. It is easy to poke holes in someone's idea and it is even easier for me to suggest a counter to your hole poking but is in the end, it doesn't get us anywhere.
And don't be too harsh on Duke, he gets all his ideas from Rek Seven. |
Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters
1044
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 09:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
I fail to see how it's a shiit move. I wasn't doing it to be insulting. I simply didn't want a ton of discussions going on in that thread No trolling please |
Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters
1044
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 09:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
Quinn Corvez wrote:Bane, you seem quite buyist towards low class wormholes and I'm not quite sure where you get the idea that there is no isk to be made in them. I'm not going to argue this point or explain the advantages of having a system with 2 statics as I don't want to derail your thread.
To help brawden your views, I sugesst you take a look at some of the old threads that discuss the need for more conflict drivers.
This is something that I would like adding to the list - more conflict drivers. I want to see a new feature or mechanic added to wormhole space that allows us to roll into someone's wormhole and interact with this new feature in a way the benefits people for fighting. For example, if the residents are unwilling to defend it they lose something while the attackers gain something. I guess it's a similar principle to the ESS.
It's not that I am bias toward low class wormholes. It's that for years I lived in a c2. I advocated for years that lower class wormhole life is just as relevant as 5/6 space. It's simply a matter of the higher class wormhole folks simply thinking life only existed in their small, empty c5/c6 for a long time, even when the "little" c2 corp I was in killed more in wh space than anyone.
Also, conflict drivers are as much a community issue as it is a CCP issue. When my corp brings 25 sub caps into a wormhole, only to have 6 dreads, 4 carriers, and 30 lokis dropped on it, it's not driving conflict. It's padding the killboard. When we are told "we don't/wont have shield ships to fight in your pulsar", that isn't some flawed mechanic CCP has to fix. Does CCP have some work to do to help wormhole space evolve? Absolutely, but so does the wormhole community. No trolling please |
Quinn Corvez
Probe Patrol Awakened.
212
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 09:59:00 -
[9] - Quote
I guess I take issue with using his name in the title but if duke is okay with it, I am.
Still, stop the hole poking. |
Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters
1044
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 10:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
Quinn Corvez wrote:
Still, stop the hole poking.
Hole poking is how we live! You are anti wh space. No trolling please |
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Quinn Corvez
Probe Patrol Awakened.
212
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 10:20:00 -
[11] - Quote
No offence, but it's irrelevant here just like when you were posting in the C7 discussion. Ideas have holes at the beginning but as they are developed and fleshed out, those ideas can be implemented in a balanced way. As I said, it is not our job to design the game.
On conflict drivers, not fighting in your pulsar is simply a lack of will. People don't really want to fight a group that uses doctrines perfectly designed for the system effect, especially if the aggressor doesn't have the right ships. This is all to do with convenience and willpower, not really conflict driving. Conflict driving is the reason and force pushing people to fight each other. |
Arkon Olacar
Blue-Fire
284
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 10:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
Quinn Corvez wrote:No offence, but it's irrelevant here just like when you were posting in the C7 discussion. Ideas have holes at the beginning but as they are developed and fleshed out, those ideas can be implemented in a balanced way. As I said, it is not our job to design the game. I fully agree, how dare a candidate for the CSM show signs of being able to evaluate suggestions for game improvements
you ******* ****** Warping to zero |
Duke Wendo
Probe Patrol Awakened.
9
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 10:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
Idea discussion on a level playing field, minus the trolls, egos, alliance backgrounds and instant idea 'shoot downs' is fine.
As for the time zone differences-
My first response would be 'tough luck'- you decide to set up your stuff in dangerous space- expect there to be danger. Either recruit people from around the globe or don't set up what you can't defend.
Other than that you can have the reinforce timer system that means the gangs can roam around and reinforce P.O.C.Os and towers and then wait 2 days for anything to happen. Obviously that can be a major time investment to people -especially WH gangs that have shifting connections. It also gives defenders time to bat phone everyone they know or titan bridge in everyone they have.
The 'farms and fields' ideas would mean more action- I personally would scan EVERYWHERE if it meant I could take out gangs and even if we couldn't find a similar gang to fight, then we had the option to burn at least some of their stuff down and take home a profit without shooting through a million hit points and waiting 24 hours for a timer to end.
For me the aim is more player interaction, more destruction, more fights but also more fights and destruction mean more industry and mining. Everyone is a winner.
|
Quinn Corvez
Probe Patrol Awakened.
212
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 10:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
Vote Duke for CSM |
calaretu
Honestly We didnt know
72
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 11:08:00 -
[15] - Quote
Strange to write this but I have to agree with Bane on this matter. The idea suggested would only serve as further insentive for the megacorps/alliances of 300+. All well and fine in c6 space but to expect a c4 or below corp to muster around the clock timezone coverage is not healthy for wormholepsace at all. |
Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters
1044
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 11:16:00 -
[16] - Quote
Quinn Corvez wrote:No offence, but it's irrelevant here just like when you were posting in the C7 discussion. Ideas have holes at the beginning but as they are developed and fleshed out, those ideas can be implemented in a balanced way. As I said, it is not our job to design the game.
On conflict drivers, not fighting in your pulsar is simply a lack of will. People don't really want to fight a group that uses doctrines perfectly designed for the system effect, especially if the aggressor doesn't have the right ships. This is all to do with convenience and willpower, not really conflict driving. Conflict driving is the reason and force pushing people to fight each other.
Conflict driving is as much about attitude as it is game mechanics. You can add all the game mechanics in the world to try and bring conflict, but if the other side is afraid of something that is a little harder or their killboard may have a chance of having some red on it, it doesn't matter. Many times over my corp has made it a point to take fights that we will most likely lose or have to disengage from. Thankfully, there are other groups (Disavowed, Hard Knocks, etc..) who feel the same way. Without that sort of thinking, no conflict would ever get driven.Certainly, some of the mechanics could use some improvement but don't pretend that's all that needs work.
No trolling please |
Sunrise Starburst
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 11:20:00 -
[17] - Quote
Duke Wendo wrote: As for the time zone differences- My first response would be 'tough luck'- you decide to set up your stuff in dangerous space- expect there to be danger. Either recruit people from around the globe or don't set up what you can't defend.
Typical comment from a "high class power bloc"
So a corp waits until it can provide 24 hour coverage before moving into wormspace or doesn't come at all?
Great idea for getting more folks into wormspace right there Einstien, maybe you should run for CSM? |
Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters
1044
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 11:25:00 -
[18] - Quote
Duke Wendo wrote:Idea discussion on a level playing field, minus the trolls, egos, alliance backgrounds and instant idea 'shoot downs' is fine.
Trolls, egos, etc.. are irrelevant if the point stands. If you present an idea that people believe won't add anything or only benefit a few, they should point that out. It just sounds like some of you are taking it personally, on both sides of the discussion.
Duke Wendo wrote: As for the time zone differences-
My first response would be 'tough luck'- you decide to set up your stuff in dangerous space- expect there to be danger. Either recruit people from around the globe or don't set up what you can't defend.
I see what you are saying here, but at the same time giving a ton of advantages to the attacking forces while essentially limiting the defenders to just having more people on isn't balanced at all. That just means the biggest groups always destroy stuff and the smaller groups sit there and take it. It needs a measure of counter balance imo. You shouldn't get some reward just because you show up and no one is online or they are too small to defend against your fleet.
No trolling please |
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
518
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 11:36:00 -
[19] - Quote
Bane Nucleus wrote:Quinn Corvez wrote:No offence, but it's irrelevant here just like when you were posting in the C7 discussion. Ideas have holes at the beginning but as they are developed and fleshed out, those ideas can be implemented in a balanced way. As I said, it is not our job to design the game.
On conflict drivers, not fighting in your pulsar is simply a lack of will. People don't really want to fight a group that uses doctrines perfectly designed for the system effect, especially if the aggressor doesn't have the right ships. This is all to do with convenience and willpower, not really conflict driving. Conflict driving is the reason and force pushing people to fight each other. Conflict driving is as much about attitude as it is game mechanics. You can add all the game mechanics in the world to try and bring conflict, but if the other side is afraid of something that is a little harder or their killboard may have a chance of having some red on it, it doesn't matter. Many times over my corp has made it a point to take fights that we will most likely lose or have to disengage from. Thankfully, there are other groups (Disavowed, Hard Knocks, etc..) who feel the same way. Without that sort of thinking, no conflict would ever get driven.Certainly, some of the mechanics could use some improvement but don't pretend that's all that needs work.
Big issue is that - once pilots settled into a HUGE corp/alliance, they forget how to do things on their own (regarding pvp). For most hostile scanners I see, it's mostly the same one/two scanners each time.
To the Pulsar-effect: Good choice. No wolf-rayet entity opening up to you even has an incentive to fight on the hole, but I doubt that's news to you. Such a connection is just worthless, can roll it right away. Inside the Pulsar, armorships are just going to get blapped by dreads, and the pulsarguys won't follow into the WR for obvious reasons. Been there, fought with an armorgang inside neighbours c5 pulsar, they dropped carriers, we went home, they didn't follow cause *WR, wtf fight on this side cowards*. "I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
Moving pictures |
Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters
1044
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 11:46:00 -
[20] - Quote
Where we live doesn't mean we only fly shield ships. We have doctrines for all types of ships, including armor. Most of our fights are taken inside someone elses wormhole, so I fail to see how such a connection is worthless. Maybe people need to learn how to adapt to different environments and fly something other than armor T3s.
My response isn't aimed at you or your guys personally Lloyd. It's a general statement so don't take it as me poking at you guys. Hell, I don't think I have ever run into you No trolling please |
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Quinn Corvez
Probe Patrol Awakened.
212
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 11:58:00 -
[21] - Quote
Sunrise Starburst wrote:Duke Wendo wrote: As for the time zone differences- My first response would be 'tough luck'- you decide to set up your stuff in dangerous space- expect there to be danger. Either recruit people from around the globe or don't set up what you can't defend.
Typical comment from a "high class power bloc" So a corp waits until it can provide 24 hour covherage before moving into wormspace or doesn't come at all? Great idea for getting more folks into wormspace right there Einstien, maybe you should run for CSM? He already addressed that concern: "don't set up what you can't defend". |
Sunrise Starburst
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 12:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
Quinn Corvez wrote:Sunrise Starburst wrote:Duke Wendo wrote: As for the time zone differences- My first response would be 'tough luck'- you decide to set up your stuff in dangerous space- expect there to be danger. Either recruit people from around the globe or don't set up what you can't defend.
Typical comment from a "high class power bloc" So a corp waits until it can provide 24 hour covherage before moving into wormspace or doesn't come at all? Great idea for getting more folks into wormspace right there Einstien, maybe you should run for CSM? He already addressed that concern: "don't set up what you can't defend".
Yeee Haaa, yet again you prove my point - Typical comment from a "high class power bloc"
WH Space is Closed - Do not enter unless you can field 24 defence like us big boys.
One week later, new post from same C5/C6 corps - Wut where is all the WH content?? Wormoles are dying where's my shiny blob kils gonna come from now?? |
Quinn Corvez
Probe Patrol Awakened.
212
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 12:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
Your sounding like a crazy person and you are not making any sense.
If CCP add a structure that benefits the installer in some way but also drops things of value if destroyed, how is that taking anything away from the smaller groups?
In fact, it would benefit the smaller group because they could mess with the big guys in a way that does't require them to match their enemy's fleet size. |
Duke Wendo
Probe Patrol Awakened.
9
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 13:19:00 -
[24] - Quote
Sunrise Starburst-
I'm not from some sort of 'power block'- when I'm online the average number of people in my fleet is about 10- what I would consider a small- medium gang- If you had looked me up before writing, you'd have realised this.
Here is my killboard for the month Duke
I'm not an awesome pilot or FC- I'm just an average joe in a c5 alliance- been part of those 'big blocks' and found them a bit boring- too much power and not enough enemies- tried living in null... meh...too easy.
True we can field a fair number of t3 pilots in our prime time, but there's a lot more corps and alliances and coalitions that easily outnumber us and I like it that way.
I love the wormhole life- we look for fights anywhere we can find them and have a good chance of winning and I love raiding null sec but for one thing-
people can P.O.S up or hide in a station and there's nothing our gang can do about it. To make any kind of impact in w-space or null you need a large amount of people fielded and usually some really big ships to chew through so many structure hitpoints.
The recent mobile structures are moving in a good direction- the E.S.S or (Null Sec Piggy Bank) is great for raiders and mobile tractors too but we need more.
And who's to say you have to have industry and P.I in your system- if you can't defend it- don't build it. Stick to high sec! |
Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters
1044
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 14:22:00 -
[25] - Quote
Duke Wendo wrote:
And who's to say you have to have industry and P.I in your system- if you can't defend it- don't build it. Stick to high sec!
They can defend it currently. That is what a POS is for. You want to essentially take away their only small chance of defending their assets because someone bigger shows up and demands a sacrifice in either ships or loot. Sorry, but If you want a fight or loot, you should have to work for it. No trolling please |
Duke Wendo
Probe Patrol Awakened.
9
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 14:53:00 -
[26] - Quote
Bane Nucleus wrote:Duke Wendo wrote:
And who's to say you have to have industry and P.I in your system- if you can't defend it- don't build it. Stick to high sec!
They can defend it currently. That is what a POS is for. You want to essentially take away their only small chance of defending their assets because someone bigger shows up and demands a sacrifice in either ships or loot. Sorry, but If you want a fight or loot, you should have to work for it.
That's where scanning and scouting come in- that's the 'work' people put in to find something to shoot at.
And the POS should have some defence- it's just it shouldn't be able to defend all the things.
Yes- all the expensive ships and modules should be behind the station walls / tower shields and all the POS guns. If you can't take the fight- that's the safe area.
But if you want to make the extra money from industry, research, P.I, sleepers/ pirate combat sites etc - you have to move out of the station/ shields in order to do it.
And that, my friends is where the raiders can raid. We can jump out of wormholes into null sec or into another wormhole system and raid their precious space then dissapear back into wormholes.
I'm not advocating free kills for everything- structures should have varying degrees of self- defence- but that defence should be scaled.
Big/ expensive stuffs- behind POS/ stations. Medium stuffs- medium defences Small stuffs- little or no defences |
Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
275
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 16:54:00 -
[27] - Quote
Let me disclaim End-of-Line is now a somewhat acceptable 23/7 corp--I always have people on roaming. We could take advantage of this mechanic like crazy, but I really think that the quoted proposal is a horrible idea for wormhole space in the long run.
Now, WHY THIS IS A BAD IDEA:
This is nothing more than people with adequate power jerking off to the idea that they could bring overwhelming force into a star system, burn down "part" of a pos without having to deal with the whole thing, and make off with all of someone's stuff before they could adequately respond. It's just a rehash of Two Step's old "make POS'es easier to kill" idea.
I lived in lower class holes, like Bane, most of my wormhole life. THE AVERAGE WORMHOLE CORPORATION--you know, what MOST of wormhole space is actually like--is one time zone, a guy with a few of his "buddies," sometimes just real life buddies, who want to escape the tidi/drama/politics of null and just farm sleepers, do cloaky warfare, and have a good time after work on week nights. They don't even read forums most of the time... They just log on, make isk, and look for a few kills before bed.
These people already live in danger of having everything they own annihilated if someone like -EOL, SKY, Red Coat, etc. decide to evict them for whatever reason. POS'es create a deterrent--as it stands, it takes a reasonable commitment of time and resources to properly remove someone from a wormhole and capture loot... AS IT SHOULD! It's already bad enough once you get hole control on the little guy--they at least deserve the protection like stront timers to hire mercs/batphone their corp/etc.... It would provide a lot of tears, which I usually love and support... but...
Now, why would I not support mass harvesting of tears?
Well, to be honest, this mechanic would simply create a feeding frenzy, and when everyone is fat off the tears and isk of all the people whose stuff we've burned down, what would we do? Everyone would be forced into bigger and bigger power blocks for 23/7 time zone protection... all the small corps would disappear, and wormhole space would ultimately end up emptier... An empty wormhole space with power consolidated into the hands of a few is not what makes wormhole space great... its the thousands of small upstart corps just trying to get by, especially in the lower holes, that creates the awesome content that never winds up on forums, that we never even hear about....
I do not want to see wormhole space empty of small corps. All corps start small. We should all remember our roots.... Would any of us still be out here today, doing the things we do, if we could never even gets our sapling's roots into the cracks of a wormhole, somewhere, half-way safe to grow? I think not... I do not see this ending well for wormhole space at all... Join End-of-Line, -EOL, today, and kill your CEO! (Terms and conditions apply.)
http://imgur.com/yEQqAeb |
Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
275
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 17:01:00 -
[28] - Quote
ADDENDUM:
After reading Duke Wendo's post just before mine, I would point out some stuff going into reaction portions of a tower are pretty expensive. It basically would force all t3 production/industry in wormholes also into the hands of really big corporations... It just makes life harder on indy bears...
Stront timers are an important part of EVE mechanics. I think it's still a terrible idea to remove them, even if only the small, less expensive things are undefended... I also question what is and is not expensive to someone in a C2 or C1.
This is, again, just making it easier for people to take someone's stuff who can't protect themselves 23/7, because they don't want to be bothered with what is required--and should be requied--to invade a star system in a video game. Join End-of-Line, -EOL, today, and kill your CEO! (Terms and conditions apply.)
http://imgur.com/yEQqAeb |
Duke Wendo
Probe Patrol Awakened.
12
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 17:59:00 -
[29] - Quote
So you think it's a bad idea? That's cool- it's your opinion and this is mine- neither will satisfy everyone.
Eve is an MMO. The content is for groups of players working together- not just 1 or 2 guys with alts thinking they should be able to solo or duo all the content and be safe while they do so.
We are discussing the harshest game environment in eve- seems like a lot of high sec people bring their safety blanket with them and think that all their stuff should be safe wherever they go.
Comon guys- this is lawless space- not empire- why is everything so well defended? There should be a balance.
Players should be the defending force and attacking force- not some massive hit point structure/ forcefield timer.
Yes it might encourage players to form bigger corps and interact more with each other- that's what an MMO is about. |
Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters
1051
|
Posted - 2014.02.22 18:19:00 -
[30] - Quote
Duke Wendo wrote:
Eve is an MMO. The content is for groups of players working together- not just 1 or 2 guys with alts thinking they should be able to solo or duo all the content and be safe while they do so.
When it comes to industry, I know very little. That said, I find it hard to believe that anyone would do industry to such an extent in wormhole space. Other than having a 4 man cap escalation fleet in wormhole space and PI, it doesn't seem worth it to do any industry in wh space. No trolling please |
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