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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
9176
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 14:44:00 -
[121] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:
"Large" fleets do not cause node crashes. Multiple enormous fleets cause node crashes.
The last time a node crashed was when a reinforcement timer was ending, incentivizing both parties to bring as much ships and fleets as possible...Because ownership of the system was being determined at that direct timing window.
Even if node capacity was doubled, the node would still crash in these circumstances, because people will just keep bringing more and more stuff until the node crashes...
As again, that's when ownership is determined.
As long as ownership is determined by timing windows, you will get giant death-blobs of node crash.
It's really not that hard to understand.
The nodes are crashing because of the number of drones being used these days. We have had far far bigger fights for years in every war including fountain. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA Apex.
170
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 14:46:00 -
[122] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Pinky Hops wrote:
"Large" fleets do not cause node crashes. Multiple enormous fleets cause node crashes.
The last time a node crashed was when a reinforcement timer was ending, incentivizing both parties to bring as much ships and fleets as possible...Because ownership of the system was being determined at that direct timing window.
Even if node capacity was doubled, the node would still crash in these circumstances, because people will just keep bringing more and more stuff until the node crashes...
As again, that's when ownership is determined.
As long as ownership is determined by timing windows, you will get giant death-blobs of node crash.
It's really not that hard to understand.
The nodes are crashing because of the number of drones being used these days. We have had far far bigger fights for years in every war including fountain.
There wouldn't ever be this kind of problem without the timing windows. It just wouldn't happen.
People cannot apply a continuum of aggression to attack. The only way to attack in this game is to force a timing window and blob the **** out of it.
It's poor design.
I understand that as a goon, it's to your advantage to want to be able to put your entire coalition into a single system -- but that's clearly not good for the game. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
9176
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 14:48:00 -
[123] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:
There wouldn't ever be this kind of problem without the timing windows. It just wouldn't happen.
People cannot apply a continuum of aggression to attack. The only way to attack in this game is to force a timing window and blob the **** out of it.
It's poor design.
I understand that as a goon, it's to your advantage to want to be able to put your entire coalition into a single system -- but that's clearly not good for the game.
The battle of Asakai, one of the largest engagements in EVE history happened with no timer involved.
Timers have nothing at all to do with these node deaths. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA Apex.
170
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 14:49:00 -
[124] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Pinky Hops wrote:
There wouldn't ever be this kind of problem without the timing windows. It just wouldn't happen.
People cannot apply a continuum of aggression to attack. The only way to attack in this game is to force a timing window and blob the **** out of it.
It's poor design.
I understand that as a goon, it's to your advantage to want to be able to put your entire coalition into a single system -- but that's clearly not good for the game.
The battle of Asakai, one of the largest engagements in EVE history happened with no timer involved. Timers have nothing at all to do with these node deaths.
One counter-example doesn't disprove the trend.
Do you disagree that timers are an incentive to have the biggest and baddest blob possible to either take ownership of a system or keep ownership as structures are coming out of reinforce? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
9176
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 14:54:00 -
[125] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:
One counter-example doesn't disprove the trend.
Do you disagree that timers are an incentive to have the biggest and baddest blob possible to either take ownership of a system or keep ownership as structures are coming out of reinforce?
I do disagree.
Tell me, would you take 10 guys to burn through an outposts armour, taking most of the day to do it and needing several ammo runs or take several hundred and get it done in 30 min? Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Prince Kobol
1223
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 15:03:00 -
[126] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Pinky Hops wrote:
One counter-example doesn't disprove the trend.
Do you disagree that timers are an incentive to have the biggest and baddest blob possible to either take ownership of a system or keep ownership as structures are coming out of reinforce?
I do disagree. Tell me, would you take 10 guys to burn through an outposts armour, taking most of the day to do it and needing several ammo runs or take several hundred and get it done in 30 min?
Or just use your cap ships instead of bombers and you will be done and dusted in no time.
Something like 20 cap ships will take out a iHub in what.. 10, maybe 15 mins max.
TCU's and SBU just pop.
You choose to use bombers to grind structures, nobody is forcing you to. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
9176
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 15:04:00 -
[127] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:
Or just use your cap ships instead of bombers and you will be done and dusted in no time.
Something like 20 cap ships will take out a iHub in what.. 10, maybe 15 mins max.
TCU's and SBU just pop.
You choose to use bombers to grind structures, nobody is forcing you to.
Unsupported dreads in a hostile system belonging to the people with the largest super/titan fleet in all of New Eden sounds like the perfect plan. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA Apex.
170
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 15:10:00 -
[128] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Pinky Hops wrote:
One counter-example doesn't disprove the trend.
Do you disagree that timers are an incentive to have the biggest and baddest blob possible to either take ownership of a system or keep ownership as structures are coming out of reinforce?
I do disagree. Tell me, would you take 10 guys to burn through an outposts armour, taking most of the day to do it and needing several ammo runs or take several hundred and get it done in 30 min?
But several hundred people don't crash a node.
It takes several thousand people to crash a node. And nobody bothers, in general, until there's a reason (like, for example...an important structure like a station coming out of reinforcement....) |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
9176
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 15:14:00 -
[129] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:
But several hundred people don't crash a node.
It takes several thousand people to crash a node. And nobody bothers, in general, until there's a reason (like, for example...an important structure like a station coming out of reinforcement....)
Again, this is due to the number of drones and tactics being used in this war. We have had much bigger fights on unreinforced nodes for years with TIDI. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA Apex.
170
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 15:17:00 -
[130] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Pinky Hops wrote:
But several hundred people don't crash a node.
It takes several thousand people to crash a node. And nobody bothers, in general, until there's a reason (like, for example...an important structure like a station coming out of reinforcement....)
Again, this is due to the number of drones and tactics being used in this war. We have had much bigger fights on unreinforced nodes for years with TIDI.
Sure, you maybe had "bigger" fights (I assume you just mean more people -- but to me size is more than just the raw amount of people. The fights you are referring to are likely much smaller in actuality) -- but that doesn't mean nodes didn't crash.
Nodes have been crashing for years, and the #1 cause is during the exit window of reinforcement.
The timing window where ownership is determined and both sides want to shove as much **** as they can to either claim something new or protect what they have. |
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Prince Kobol
1223
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 15:20:00 -
[131] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:
Or just use your cap ships instead of bombers and you will be done and dusted in no time.
Something like 20 cap ships will take out a iHub in what.. 10, maybe 15 mins max.
TCU's and SBU just pop.
You choose to use bombers to grind structures, nobody is forcing you to.
Unsupported dreads in a hostile system belonging to the people with the largest super/titan fleet in all of New Eden sounds like the perfect plan.
Its is :)
So your main complaint is that somebody has more of something then you?
Also I didn't see threads being made when you were using your dasboot fleets against test?
I guess it was okay then because you were winning but now it sucks because your not.
I usually have a lot of respect for the goons but your constant crying is making you all sound like a bunch of HS carebear crying over being ganked.
Also, where are your Baltec Fleets? The ones where you were fielding like 500+ guys at once. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
9176
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 15:23:00 -
[132] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:
Sure, you maybe had "bigger" fights (I assume you just mean more people -- but to me size is more than just the raw amount of people. The fights you are referring to are likely much smaller in actuality) -- but that doesn't mean nodes didn't crash.
Nodes have been crashing for years, and the #1 cause is during the exit window of reinforcement.
The timing window where ownership is determined and both sides want to shove as much **** as they can to either claim something new or protect what they have.
Nodes havent come down in a battle since before the attempted headshot of VFK several years ago. They are a new thing that is only happening in this war.
The nodes are going down with only 600 vs 600 man fights. These numbers are nothing at all special and fairly run of the mill for the last 5 years. The only thing different is the drone doctrines being used by both sides. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1982
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 15:51:00 -
[133] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Pinky Hops wrote:
Sure, you maybe had "bigger" fights (I assume you just mean more people -- but to me size is more than just the raw amount of people. The fights you are referring to are likely much smaller in actuality) -- but that doesn't mean nodes didn't crash.
Nodes have been crashing for years, and the #1 cause is during the exit window of reinforcement.
The timing window where ownership is determined and both sides want to shove as much **** as they can to either claim something new or protect what they have.
Nodes havent come down in a battle since before the attempted headshot of VFK several years ago. They are a new thing that is only happening in this war. The nodes are going down with only 600 vs 600 man fights. These numbers are nothing at all special and fairly run of the mill for the last 5 years. The only thing different is the drone doctrines being used by both sides.
Sorry CCP already said in another thread that the drones have nothing to do with it, you'll need a new drum to bang on about why its not fair that you can shove 1k megas in a system and thats fair but us shoving 300 carriers in a system is somehow the evilest of evils
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
9176
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 16:13:00 -
[134] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:
Sorry CCP already said in another thread that the drones have nothing to do with it, you'll need a new drum to bang on about why its not fair that you can shove 1k megas in a system and thats fair but us shoving 300 carriers in a system is somehow the evilest of evils
So tell me how 1000 mega dont crash the node like the 300 carriers do.
CCP have been wrong in the past, just look at titan tracking, remote DD, AOE doomsday, FW exploits, tech moons and so forth that at the time were deemed perfectly ok untill we went and abused the living hell out of it.
Having thousands of drones being deployed, recalled and abandoned are bound to cause issues. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Zulu Death Mask
Yaxchilan
8
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 16:16:00 -
[135] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote: Sorry CCP already said in another thread that the drones have nothing to do with it, you'll need a new drum to bang on about why its not fair that you can shove 1k megas in a system and thats fair but us shoving 300 carriers in a system is somehow the evilest of evils
Yeah megas die though and people get their killboard fix. What happens when you field 250 slowcats? Also... I'd love to see that CCP comment that drones have nothing to do with it :) |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1982
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 16:41:00 -
[136] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
Having thousands of drones being deployed, recalled and abandoned are bound to cause issues.
I understand that you've been fed a sack of lies about how this all works, and being the good communist party worker you swallowed it all whole without question but I'm going to ruin a little something for you here:
Slowcats don't recall drones nor has the order ever been given to recall them, and the secret as to why you never bother to tell your carrier to recall its drones is in the name of the fleet comp.
Zulu Death Mask wrote:Grath Telkin wrote: Sorry CCP already said in another thread that the drones have nothing to do with it, you'll need a new drum to bang on about why its not fair that you can shove 1k megas in a system and thats fair but us shoving 300 carriers in a system is somehow the evilest of evils
Yeah megas die though and people get their killboard fix. What happens when you field 250 slowcats? Also... I'd love to see that CCP comment that drones have nothing to do with it :)
Slowcats die when you field the right thing, but its hilarious to sit and watch the CFC demand that we feed kills into their ******** sub cap monstrosity. I remember them making similar claims about us just wanting people to warp fleets into tracking titans and how absurd the idea sounded to them, and yet here they are screaming for nearly the same thing 'make them fly into our guns CCP, they're not doing it right"."
Sorry but you MUST bring the right tools to do a job and bringing 500 ships to a fight that are strictly inties and dictors isn't helping any node anywhere and yet you feel perfectly justified in your doing so and today you've all shown collectively that not only do you think you should be able to, but that also that the other guy should just lose because you've assembled so many people against your enemies.
The CFC motto: If raw numbers can't beat it it must be bad game design.
Oh also that link:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4021826#post4021826
CCP Veritas wrote: Long term plan is the same as the short term plan - diagnose the problem when it happens and fix it. Ideally twice; fixing the root cause and also hardening the system against similar faults.
The causes for the previous three node deaths have been patched on TQ, for example.
It's worth noting that in all recent events it hasn't been the high load that directly causes the node death, but rather errors in the programming that only express at high load or in the kind of highly complex scenarios that large fights contain.
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
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Zulu Death Mask
Yaxchilan
9
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 16:52:00 -
[137] - Quote
Yeah that DEV comment is well known and has nothing to do with Drones.
Are you saying that the thousands of drones don't affect the node crash?
Are you saying that slowcats are perfectly balanced and everyone who doesn't like them is a grrrGoon crybaby?
Also about the counter... which one are you thinking of? There's been so many mentioned in various social media... all can be countered by your cap/super fleet and when in doubt just log in everything, cyno in everything and **** on the node. Extract safely at a later date.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
9176
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 16:53:00 -
[138] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:
I understand that you've been fed a sack of lies about how this all works, and being the good communist party worker you swallowed it all whole without question but I'm going to ruin a little something for you here:
Slowcats don't recall drones nor has the order ever been given to recall them, and the secret as to why you never bother to tell your carrier to recall its drones is in the name of the fleet comp.
So again, why is this only happening with slowcats deployed and with far fewer numbers?
CCP have said they have fixed this issue several times and it keep on happening. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1985
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 17:06:00 -
[139] - Quote
Zulu Death Mask wrote:Are you saying that the thousands of drones don't affect the node crash?
Yes, thats exactly what I'm saying, we've been using slowcats in huge numbers for a long time now, the node crashes are new, and obviously came in either 1.1 or Rubicons release since the fights in June and July were just fine
Zulu Death Mask wrote:Are you saying that slowcats are perfectly balanced and everyone who doesn't like them is a grrrGoon crybaby? Yes, I am saying exactly that, if you want to fight capitals you should need capitals, you wouldn't engage a battleship fleet in a frigate fleet, lose and then cry about how imbalanced the battleships are so why is this any different?
Zulu Death Mask wrote:Also about the counter... which one are you thinking of? There's been so many mentioned in various social media... all can be countered by your cap/super fleet and when in doubt just log in everything, cyno in everything and **** on the node. Extract safely at a later date.
I'm not going to tell you how to beat us, however when you bring 1700 people to a fight and 500 are in frigates and destoryers I think you have a strong place to start on the 'why aren't we winning' front.
And try not to cry about what we have and you don't, there was peace in the south, everybody was getting their share, you started a war and now you're unhappy with how its going, sounds like you picked on the wrong guy to me.
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
|
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA Apex.
170
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 17:10:00 -
[140] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:
I understand that you've been fed a sack of lies about how this all works, and being the good communist party worker you swallowed it all whole without question but I'm going to ruin a little something for you here:
Slowcats don't recall drones nor has the order ever been given to recall them, and the secret as to why you never bother to tell your carrier to recall its drones is in the name of the fleet comp.
So again, why is this only happening with slowcats deployed and with far fewer numbers? CCP have said they have fixed this issue several times and it keep on happening.
Much more likely it is different issues each time.
The real question is: why do people want incentives to blob the **** out of nodes?
I'll never understand it.
Fix sov/find a better way to handle sov, and the problem will fix itself. |
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
9176
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 17:11:00 -
[141] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Zulu Death Mask wrote:Are you saying that the thousands of drones don't affect the node crash? Yes, thats exactly what I'm saying, we've been using slowcats in huge numbers for a long time now, the node crashes are new, and obviously came in either 1.1 or Rubicons release since the fights in June and July were just fine
You have never used them in the numbers we see now. The first full slowcat fleet also saw the first node death and every deployment that has seen action since has seen the node die. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Leigh Akiga
Trickle Down Economics
382
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 17:14:00 -
[142] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:there was peace in the south, everybody was getting their share, you started a war and now you're unhappy with how its going, sounds like you picked on the wrong guy to me
DONT ROCK THE BOAT
And whatever you do, dont make PL log into EVE |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA Apex.
170
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 17:15:00 -
[143] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Zulu Death Mask wrote:Are you saying that the thousands of drones don't affect the node crash? Yes, thats exactly what I'm saying, we've been using slowcats in huge numbers for a long time now, the node crashes are new, and obviously came in either 1.1 or Rubicons release since the fights in June and July were just fine You have never used them in the numbers we see now. The first full slowcat fleet also saw the first node death and every deployment that has seen action since has seen the node die.
uhhhhhh....what?
there has been a full slowcat fleet for several months...he's right in that crashes didn't start until after rubicon |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1986
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 17:15:00 -
[144] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Zulu Death Mask wrote:Are you saying that the thousands of drones don't affect the node crash? Yes, thats exactly what I'm saying, we've been using slowcats in huge numbers for a long time now, the node crashes are new, and obviously came in either 1.1 or Rubicons release since the fights in June and July were just fine You have never used them in the numbers we see now. The first full slowcat fleet also saw the first node death and every deployment that has seen action since has seen the node die.
I'm sorry you think we haven't seen this many before but you're wrong, whats worse, is we've actually seen more, but do go on grasping at straws
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
|
SFM Hobb3s
Vanguard Frontiers Black Legion.
40
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 17:18:00 -
[145] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:baltec1 wrote:[quote=Pinky Hops]
The nodes are going down with only 600 vs 600 man fights. These numbers are nothing at all special and fairly run of the mill for the last 5 years. The only thing different is the drone doctrines being used by both sides. Sorry CCP already said in another thread that the drones have nothing to do with it, you'll need a new drum to bang on about why its not fair that you can shove 1k megas in a system and thats fair but us shoving 300 carriers in a system is somehow the evilest of evils
Um, no they didn't absolve drones at all. What CCP Veritas said was that it wasn't 'high load' causing the node to crash. It was conditions experienced during said 'high load'. Guess what causes high load? Drones.
Of course it no longer takes several thousand people to crash the node. 300 Sentry drone carriers take up the same CPU load as 1800 players before you account for any abandoned drones. |
Prince Kobol
1225
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 17:18:00 -
[146] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Zulu Death Mask wrote:Are you saying that the thousands of drones don't affect the node crash? Yes, thats exactly what I'm saying, we've been using slowcats in huge numbers for a long time now, the node crashes are new, and obviously came in either 1.1 or Rubicons release since the fights in June and July were just fine You have never used them in the numbers we see now. The first full slowcat fleet also saw the first node death and every deployment that has seen action since has seen the node die.
You can cry drones as much as you like but even CCP have stated that the node crashes was nothing to do with drones.
Now we have 2 choices.
Either believe CCP that the issues surrounding the node crashes were not drone related or the goons who are convinced it is because they have yet to find an effective counter.
Difficult one |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1986
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 17:20:00 -
[147] - Quote
Haha this thread just gets better and better, now a black legion guy knows how much CPU a carrier uses as compared to the other ships in EVE
EDIT: And running off this guys numbers, each domi can launch half a carriers drone bandwidth so that would mean 600 domis take up the same CPU as 1800 players. Same with Ishtars, damn those dirty ishtars. Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
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Prince Kobol
1225
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 17:20:00 -
[148] - Quote
SFM Hobb3s wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:baltec1 wrote:[quote=Pinky Hops]
The nodes are going down with only 600 vs 600 man fights. These numbers are nothing at all special and fairly run of the mill for the last 5 years. The only thing different is the drone doctrines being used by both sides. Sorry CCP already said in another thread that the drones have nothing to do with it, you'll need a new drum to bang on about why its not fair that you can shove 1k megas in a system and thats fair but us shoving 300 carriers in a system is somehow the evilest of evils Um, no they didn't absolve drones at all. What CCP Veritas said was that it wasn't 'high load' causing the node to crash. It was conditions experienced during said 'high load'. Guess what causes high load? Drones. Of course it no longer takes several thousand people to crash the node. 300 Sentry drone carriers take up the same CPU load as 1800 players before you account for any abandoned drones.
News at 10...
CFC pets come out to defend the "It the Drones" party line |
Ssoraszh Tzarszh
Eschelon Directive Universal Consortium
35
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 17:21:00 -
[149] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Pinky Hops wrote:
But several hundred people don't crash a node.
It takes several thousand people to crash a node. And nobody bothers, in general, until there's a reason (like, for example...an important structure like a station coming out of reinforcement....)
Again, this is due to the number of drones and tactics being used in this war. We have had much bigger fights on unreinforced nodes for years with TIDI.
Don't just walk in so casually and blaim those poor orphans you! also i like how an ancient grid loading lag discussion is used to point a finger at node crashes.
|
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
9176
|
Posted - 2013.12.24 17:22:00 -
[150] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:
Much more likely it is different issues each time.
Yep, it cannot possibly be the mass deployment of thousands to tens of thousands of drones. It much be lots of other problems, problems that don't happen with larger sub capital fights, problems that didn't start happening before the deployment of full fleets of slowcats.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
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