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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Ebedar
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Posted - 2006.03.17 14:53:00 -
[361]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 17/03/2006 06:22:27 Another guy who only thinks PvP. Please try to apply this to PvE also and you will see it is worthless :-)
I have to repeat this once more: Don't think about how to change ECMs or actual jamming system, it is fine. The only problem is DEFENCE !!! ECCM modules however should be changed to offer some effective ECM defence. Right now, you can be jammed by the lowest strength jammer no matter how much sensor strength you get. The numbers look good on eccms, but effects are insufficient.
Ok, a couple of points to contend with here.
Firstly, the system can be applied to PvE, the difference being that you'll know how much being jammed by an NPC will reduce your effectiveness (because NPCs are predictable). IMO, though, ECM's main applications are in PvP and I'd favour a system that works well in PvP but not PvE over a system that works badly in trying to accommodate both. If you're fitting ECM modules to deal with rats, that's your choice but I can think of many more useful modules to use in a med slot.
Secondly, ECM is clearly not fine otherwise we wouldn't have pages of people trying to find a way to fix it. Boosting ECCM is irrelevant when ECM is as powerful as it currently is (and I do use it on a regular basis, I'd be foolish not to).
The Dominix: A Documentary |
Auman
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Posted - 2006.03.17 15:05:00 -
[362]
Edited by: Auman on 17/03/2006 15:06:17 A lot of people have posted some good ideas on how to improve the current system. What I'm wondering is do you all really believe that a chance based system is fundementally a good thing?
You can play around with ECM & ECCM all you want but the fact remains in small fleet ops you cannot protect yourself against being unlucky!! You can have better tactics but if a lot of ECM is being used it comes back to how lucky you are. It has an incredibly powerful on/off effect but a dice rolling chance of "hitting"...
As Eve has developed ships have become far more role based and yet when ECM was changed this was a step in the opposite direction. It made it jamming ECM available to any ship with a mid slot.
A chance based system just seems wrong and in certain situations very overpowered.
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Hugh Ruka
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Posted - 2006.03.17 15:39:00 -
[363]
Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 17/03/2006 15:39:23
Originally by: Ebedar
Originally by: Hugh Ruka Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 17/03/2006 06:22:27 Another guy who only thinks PvP. Please try to apply this to PvE also and you will see it is worthless :-)
I have to repeat this once more: Don't think about how to change ECMs or actual jamming system, it is fine. The only problem is DEFENCE !!! ECCM modules however should be changed to offer some effective ECM defence. Right now, you can be jammed by the lowest strength jammer no matter how much sensor strength you get. The numbers look good on eccms, but effects are insufficient.
Ok, a couple of points to contend with here.
Firstly, the system can be applied to PvE, the difference being that you'll know how much being jammed by an NPC will reduce your effectiveness (because NPCs are predictable). IMO, though, ECM's main applications are in PvP and I'd favour a system that works well in PvP but not PvE over a system that works badly in trying to accommodate both. If you're fitting ECM modules to deal with rats, that's your choice but I can think of many more useful modules to use in a med slot.
Secondly, ECM is clearly not fine otherwise we wouldn't have pages of people trying to find a way to fix it. Boosting ECCM is irrelevant when ECM is as powerful as it currently is (and I do use it on a regular basis, I'd be foolish not to).
Well ECM is veery effective with belt rating ... I use a scorp for that, I have 6 jammers on board. there is hardly a spawn I cannot engage (normal rats not officers).
mission are another story, there are more rats than you could manage.
having ecm when belt ratting is also the best defence against PC pirates so I accomplish two goals with the same modules where I cannot quarantee that my rat hardened tank will endure a player that fits to counter it.
why is boosting ECCM irrelevant ? ppl do not complain about ECM on dedicated ships but on NORMAL ships. so an effective ECM defence will allow to discourage the use of ecm on normal ship, while the specialist ships will still be effective. and I think that's the goal most ppl try to achieve in this thread.
------------------------------ Removed due to offensive content - Laqum
I realy liked my signature. Oh well ... |
TuRtLe HeAd
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Posted - 2006.03.17 16:01:00 -
[364]
If it makes electonic Warfare Fairer I'm all for it, if it enhances it. No thanks, Im fed up with I win EW Domi/ishtars.
Sounds good though. |
Clavius XIV
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Posted - 2006.03.17 16:50:00 -
[365]
Originally by: Auman
You can play around with ECM & ECCM all you want but the fact remains in small fleet ops you cannot protect yourself against being unlucky!! You can have better tactics but if a lot of ECM is being used it comes back to how lucky you are. It has an incredibly powerful on/off effect but a dice rolling chance of "hitting"...
Yes and no. Yes in a single small op, there are a lot of chances for "luck" to come into play in the outcome. Over a lot of small ops it averages out of course.
But the more ECM being used by both sides in a single fight, the closer the probablities come to evening out and the less "luck" matters. This is why the dice can seem most cruel in 1:1s and noone really has much of a problem in fleet fights.
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Ebedar
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Posted - 2006.03.17 17:09:00 -
[366]
I'll split your post into the relevant parts and respond to each separately, so that my response doesn't get confusing.
Originally by: Hugh Ruka Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 17/03/2006 15:39:23 Well ECM is veery effective with belt rating ... I use a scorp for that, I have 6 jammers on board. there is hardly a spawn I cannot engage (normal rats not officers).
mission are another story, there are more rats than you could manage.
having ecm when belt ratting is also the best defence against PC pirates so I accomplish two goals with the same modules where I cannot quarantee that my rat hardened tank will endure a player that fits to counter it.
While you have a use for ECM in PvE on an EW-dedicated ship, it's a very specific case and so it applies to a handful of ship in Eve at best, which I don't think presents a strong enough case for leaving the system as it is.
Under the system I propose (which, I will say again, is only one suggestion) you'd still be able to use ECM against belt rats but it would no longer completely neutralize that specific rat/ship - a Scorpion would be more effective at reducing the target's effectiveness, though, and would have more choice over how to assign its jammers for maximum efficiency.
You'd still be able to use the same jammers to get away from players as your chances of getting a jam are not decreased (and once you are successful in getting a jam, they would not be able to use scramblers/warp disruptors on you, as I mentioned in my original proposal).
Originally by: Hugh Ruka why is boosting ECCM irrelevant ? ppl do not complain about ECM on dedicated ships but on NORMAL ships. so an effective ECM defence will allow to discourage the use of ecm on normal ship, while the specialist ships will still be effective. and I think that's the goal most ppl try to achieve in this thread.
What I said was that boosting ECCM is irrelevant when ECM is as powerful as it currently is. The problem lies with ECM - as you say people complain about ECM on normal ships, which is a good indicator that it is being widely and effectively used on non-specialised ships (which might in turn imply that its use on specialised ships is overpowered, but that's not a view I want to pursue here).
If so many people are using ECM on normal ships and it is effective and is causing a problem, then it seems straightforward to me that ECM is lacking balance (otherwise it wouldn't be a 'must have' module). Until the ECM is balanced, you can't begin to look at the counter measures, i.e. the ECCM.
The Dominix: A Documentary |
Shamis Orzoz
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Posted - 2006.03.17 17:23:00 -
[367]
If you would give us a way of safely locking friendly pilots in combat then eccm projectors would be a very good counter to ecm's.
But I do like the idea of making regular eccm's more useful.
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Shamis Orzoz
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Posted - 2006.03.17 17:25:00 -
[368]
If you would give us a way of safely locking friendly pilots in combat then eccm projectors would be a very good counter to ecm's.
But I do like the idea of making regular eccm's more useful.
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KilROCK
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Posted - 2006.03.18 11:00:00 -
[369]
OH MY GOD NOOO With these changes. My dominix won't be as much but still will be, the best battleships for most solo kills!
I like the activation part, but as i suggested and probably many did. Give Caldari *****s ships designed to EW a reduction bonus on the reactivation delay.
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Nyxus
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Posted - 2006.03.18 14:36:00 -
[370]
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz If you would give us a way of safely locking friendly pilots in combat then eccm projectors would be a very good counter to ecm's.
But I do like the idea of making regular eccm's more useful.
AMEN!
You can have the coordination and the skill to have multiple people boosting each other - which is no small fleet in hectic engagements.
But it all becomes worthless when someone shuts off all the coordination and utilization of friendly targets by clicking 1 button and getting a lucky jam.
Organization, preplanning, and utilizing offensive slots (target locks) for defense should net a good bonus. But it really doesn't matter when 1 lucky jam shuts it all down. It shouldn't be quite so easy.
Nyxus
Macgyver can build an airplane out of gum and paper clips, but Chuck Norris can kill him and take it.
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Ryoutou
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Posted - 2006.03.18 17:32:00 -
[371]
I echo what many others have said about EW reactivation delay - make EW specialty ships immune to this.
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Dracolich
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Posted - 2006.03.19 16:03:00 -
[372]
Originally by: darth solo iv got a crazy, totally mental out of this world idea...
make ECM a module that can only be fitted on ECM ships... like gang mods on BC/command ships, like advanced cloakers on coverts., and various others.
Im sick of every fight i get into being jammed from ships, that just shouldnt be fitting ecm... we have ECM ravens, ECM doms, Megas fitting 2 ecm mods... u would have to be a mad man to fight a domonix solo now, u just know its gonna be using ecm.
ECM is the win button in eve and is far too overpowered, so im glad u are looking into it....
Id like to see it go back to what it once was, where it took 3 modules to jam 1 ship, where u knew if u fitted backups 3 modules wouldnt jam u..
MAKE IT AN EXACT SCIENCE... if u activate ecm on me for -18 sensor strengh, and i have 18 total strengh, i am jammed.. if u activate -18 on me and i have 19 i can target you.
making it chance based was a lottery, it was a case of first to jam won, if u missed a few cycles u lost... thats totally unfair and should never have been put into the game.
I could go up against a guy with 30mill skillpoints less than me, hes in the same ship, yet he has 1 ecm module fitted that just by luck manages to jam me on all cycles...
you have to admit, its pretty poor. or maybe i have the exact same setup, yet my ecm cycles do not work, all of his do, again totally unfair allowing it to chance.
Anyways, its no secret that im a big hater of the way ecm has been worked.
d solo.
I totally agree with this. _______________________________________
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.03.19 16:15:00 -
[373]
Originally by: Ryoutou I echo what many others have said about EW reactivation delay - make EW specialty ships immune to this.
Yea, shame about their EW range bonus which made them useful against snipers.
Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command |
MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2006.03.19 17:00:00 -
[374]
Edited by: MOOstradamus on 19/03/2006 17:01:28
Luck based chance (when you know the %'s) > Yes/No or Black/White system
Unless of course you prefer narrow, rigid & dull predictability ..
MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer |
KilROCK
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Posted - 2006.03.19 17:25:00 -
[375]
If you decide to bring back the old system, tell me now so i can cancel training for Rook. Thanks
Originally by: Ithildin Q: Will the Gallente ship have lots of missiles? I think it's time. A: Die. You are not |
Slink Grinsdikild
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Posted - 2006.03.19 19:31:00 -
[376]
I like the ECCM boosts but the cool down timer combined with a longer cycle seems like overkill to me. One or the other please, not both. Ships without EW bonuses have less chance of jamming targets. This is already enough of a deterrent not to use them.
What really bothers me is that inherently these changes are done to nerf the Ishtar/Dominix but in effect also nerf Minmatar, being the second most Medslot heavy shiprace. Couldn't you put a limitation on Nosferatu in stead? That would be far less drastic.
Also, I strongly disagree with those who state that ECM should be for ECM-ships only. If you go down that road please also make nosferatu and disrupters Amarr-only, warp Scramblers and damps Gallente-only, webifiers and painters Minmatar-only.
If its predictability in PvP that you so desperately want then lets nerf every form of EW back to the stone age. I like the current form of EW, where everyone can fit a whole plethora of modules. It creates versatility and keeps people on their toes. Its what sets EVE PvP apart from other games, there are many variations on a theme and no 'cookie cutter' builds.
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Sato Kurosawa
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Posted - 2006.03.20 02:08:00 -
[377]
WTS Rook and Falcons
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Chorianda
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Posted - 2006.03.20 03:30:00 -
[378]
Edited by: Chorianda on 20/03/2006 03:34:12 Edited by: Chorianda on 20/03/2006 03:33:08 Edited by: Chorianda on 20/03/2006 03:32:43 OK, I'll admit to being a total noob as far as this stuff goes, and I'm looking for someplace that explains in simple language how the ECM and ECCM modules currently work and what are the considerations for using them. I got the idea that they might make me safer for running through those heavily camped 0.4 systems on the edge of empire, but I know of no way to see if I understand other than fitting one and seeing what happens when I get jumped.
Is this 9-month-old thread still accurate?
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Slink Grinsdikild
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Posted - 2006.03.20 03:33:00 -
[379]
Just to add - I'd rather see even stronger ECCM modules than currently proposed instead of outright nerfing ECM.
As others have pointed out EW lowslot Upgrades will not work in practice since ships like the Rook and Scorpion don't exactly have medslots to spare.
So.. TomB. Just boost ECCM to balance things out, keep the nerfbat locked up for some other time, k? ;\
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.03.20 09:13:00 -
[380]
I think TomB, that ECCM works fine atm.
I fit two medlsot ECCM's on a BS and anyone will have a hard time jamming me. If everyone does that, those two modules per ship in my gang invalidate a number of ships in the enemy gang. I'd sign for that tbh.
Secondly, the overpowered use of ECM on small ships etc. that's a topic atm can be solved much easier then by all kinds of changes to functioning eccm.
Just lower the base chance on ecm mods, and boost the ship bonuses on specialist ships, and the skill bonuses of specialist skills to compensate. So that specialists in specialised ships remain as effective as now, yet your average nub frig pilot get's shafted with his ECM-zerg tactics.
That would be my 2 cents on the subject.
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.03.20 10:07:00 -
[381]
Originally by: Rod Blaine I think TomB, that ECCM works fine atm.
I fit two medlsot ECCM's on a BS and anyone will have a hard time jamming me. If everyone does that, those two modules per ship in my gang invalidate a number of ships in the enemy gang. I'd sign for that tbh.
Secondly, the overpowered use of ECM on small ships etc. that's a topic atm can be solved much easier then by all kinds of changes to functioning eccm.
Just lower the base chance on ecm mods, and boost the ship bonuses on specialist ships, and the skill bonuses of specialist skills to compensate. So that specialists in specialised ships remain as effective as now, yet your average nub frig pilot get's shafted with his ECM-zerg tactics.
That would be my 2 cents on the subject.
and increase the skill need for tech2 modules already, a 3 monthold noob can use the tech2 jammers (I know one).
Also introduce further specialisatio skills, like "ladar jamming spec" as lvl 8 rank skill. That would become fun, and finally something to train for me.
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Emsigma
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Posted - 2006.03.20 11:25:00 -
[382]
... and remove the chance based system *nags*
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Hugh Ruka
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Posted - 2006.03.20 11:33:00 -
[383]
I give up on this topic ... realy ... It seems most people posting here want EVE to look like this:
ctrl+click, F1-F8, web, scrambler, wait till opponent dies, loot, find next target and repeat.
there were some interesting ideas, but usualy they are situation specific so not applicable to the whole EVE world. ------------------------------ Removed due to offensive content - Laqum
I realy liked my signature. Oh well ... |
Destroyer Draxx
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Posted - 2006.03.20 11:46:00 -
[384]
Edited by: Destroyer Draxx on 20/03/2006 11:47:57 Blasters fixed yet?
Reactivation delay is going to nerf ppl using a lot of ecm mods MORE than ppl using 1-2 mods. 6 mods 10 sec reactivation = 60 lost secs. 2 mods 10 sec reactivation = 20secs lost secs. EW is not uber. If ppl took the time to try to fit ECCMs or back up arrays they would notice that a scorp with 6 multis would hardly lay a cycle on them. U want to change it, go ahead but compansate EW ships. If a scorp meets an arma n cant jam it it should be able to kill it. No more skills please. EW is a semi profecion atm, if u make it a regular profesion, specialised pilots should jam no matter what n from the random comments i c that ppl dont want that ;)
ECCMs allowing u to lock one target renders EW useless in combat. I ll explain. In fleet combat the guy with the loudest voice calls out a target. All the other guys holding their ears lock n shoot that target. Its is called primary ;). If an EW ship cant prevent enemy ships from locking n killing that target they serve no purpose in a fleet battle. Same happens in small gang engagements. If ur 1 on 1 n the other guy has ECCM n targets u no matter how many jammers u got on him, u die cause u have no shield tank (in case of scorp) n he has full armor tank n has only sacrifised 1 med slot (instead of 5-6)
My idea, if u want to go around balancing EW would be, all ECM mods get their atributes decreased by half, u give EW ships a bigger bonus per level so that they are just as good as they are now. If a scorp cant jam a ship with no ECCMs or Backup arrays it is useless. If u want to spice things up as well go for it, but dont add reactivation time cause thats not spice thats nerf. Edit reading up - What Rod said
So Far So Good....So What |
Guide 36K
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Posted - 2006.03.20 13:13:00 -
[385]
Edited by: Guide 36K on 20/03/2006 13:15:21
Originally by: Rod Blaine I think TomB, that ECCM works fine atm.
I fit two medlsot ECCM's on a BS and anyone will have a hard time jamming me. If everyone does that, those two modules per ship in my gang invalidate a number of ships in the enemy gang.
Secondly, the overpowered use of ECM on small ships etc. that's a topic atm can be solved much easier then by all kinds of changes to functioning eccm.
Just lower the base chance on ecm mods, and boost the ship bonuses on specialist ships, and the skill bonuses of specialist skills to compensate. So that specialists in specialised ships remain as effective as now, yet your average nub frig pilot get's shafted with his ECM-zerg tactics.
That's pretty much what I came up with.
With the race specialisation flavours that CCP introduced you can't go changing ECM to a high slot module or some other drastic change. (Cald - Scorp. fex)
It seems to me that people that are arguing for a return to the old system liked being jammed 24/7 with no chance of a 'miss' because you will be jammed everytime all the time by a specialised jamming ship (barring extreme ECCM setups)
The EW system isn't imbalanced imo as a standalone system only it's stacked probability use in fleets of small ships. If anything ECCM are a little too strong as a single module gives a huge percentage decrease in the chance of being jammed.
Comparing EW to dmg: the sacrifices an EW pilot makes in terms of defense to fit an EW setup really argues that EW should be a reasonably powerful weapon (in the right hands) as the consequences of it failing are usually costly. You can fit hardeners to counter dmg setups but the attacker doesn't lose any defensive capabilities when it's main offensive system is countered or 'fails' (misses).
Nerf EW? Not really...
Change the flavour? (chance based vs on/off) - I think all pilots complaining about the current system from instances of it being used against them will dislike the old system more...
<edit> Darn, that was meant to be with my main
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Guide 36K
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Posted - 2006.03.20 13:17:00 -
[386]
Edited by: Guide 36K on 20/03/2006 13:17:51 *sigh*
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Leto Atreides
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Posted - 2006.03.20 13:18:00 -
[387]
Get back in yr kennel alt!
The above thoughts and conclusions were the intellectual property of me and not Guide 36k.
Signed /Leto
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Usul Faust
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Posted - 2006.03.20 15:52:00 -
[388]
A corpmate bought a few (!) lachesis the other day, and we tested it against my retri.
It was set up for ewar, he had good ew skills, and predictably the winner came down to whether or not he kept me jammed or not. He didn't jam every time, but he jammed enough times to justify his ship costing 4 times more than mine.
Ew isn't broken, its just that people don't like the idea of being jammed. If you're 1:1 with a ship setup to jam and it fails to jam, it's pretty much ******.
we also discovered that him remembering to use drones helps :D
no skills, just luck.
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jukriamrr
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Posted - 2006.03.20 17:09:00 -
[389]
I don't know whether it has been suggested but ...
Why not introduce a skill that improves a ship's base sensor strenght? Like 5% per level? Or one skill for each sensor type?
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.03.20 20:02:00 -
[390]
Originally by: Usul Faust A corpmate bought a few (!) lachesis the other day, and we tested it against my retri.
It was set up for ewar, he had good ew skills, and predictably the winner came down to whether or not he kept me jammed or not. He didn't jam every time, but he jammed enough times to justify his ship costing 4 times more than mine.
Ew isn't broken, its just that people don't like the idea of being jammed. If you're 1:1 with a ship setup to jam and it fails to jam, it's pretty much ******.
we also discovered that him remembering to use drones helps :D
Lacheses is a recon cruiser. Retribution is a Aussault frigate
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