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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Notorious Fellon
Republic University Minmatar Republic
46
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Posted - 2013.12.11 16:10:00 -
[301] - Quote
I adore the cute little grunts who think that stealth and tactics are not allowed in "war".
I bet they hug their guns while they cry themselves asleep at night.
You disgust me.
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Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
74
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Posted - 2013.12.11 16:30:00 -
[302] - Quote
Warp core stabs and cloaks are fine (though they drive me nuts).
The biggest issue is the mechanic that allows sub 1 mil SP alts to control the WZ. Timer rollbacks wouldn't stop that completely, but it would help (so would dual timers though I'm less of a fan of that one).
Timer Rollbacks won't stop people from printing isk if they wanna farm like crazy, but it would dent them a bit if they want to do it in a way that impacts Warzone control. They will still make plenty per hour if you look at the risk/reward of a sub 1mil SP toon with a dirt cheap ship that can warp away if he wants and everyone has to get at him through an acceleration gate.
Do you think farmers should control the Warzone based on isk/lp conversion ratios without having to work a little harder for it? BLFOX is currently recruiting |
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
189
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Posted - 2013.12.11 16:44:00 -
[303] - Quote
Notorious Fellon wrote:I adore the cute little grunts who think that stealth and tactics are not allowed in "war".
I bet they hug their guns while they cry themselves asleep at night.
You disgust me.
Agreed. |
Burtakus
Genstar Inc
6
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Posted - 2013.12.11 16:58:00 -
[304] - Quote
To sum up a few points I have read.
For the Status Quo 1) Those advocating for timer rollbacks are essentially too lazy to defend their systems 2) Timer rollbacks already exists in the form of defensive plexing 3) Cloaks and WCS are part of the game and there is no valid reason to limit their usage in FW plex's 4) Farming LP for significant isk, nearly zero risk, and little to no SP/ship/fitting requirements is perfectly ok for the game 5) Changing the nature of plexes from what they are will limit the ability of newer player to earn LP for FW
Against the status quo a) Farmers with little to no interest in FW other than making LP for isk are adversely impacting the FW feature of Eve through an out sized reward vs. risk and the direct impact on WZ control this imbalance creates.
That to me is a reasonable characterization of the previous 15 pages of discussion.
Questions to answer 1) Is this situation acceptable for the overall health of that game in the context of FW and what is was intended to be? 2) If not then does any solution violate the sandbox ethos that is Eve? 3) If this does violate the sandbox ethos then is their past precedent for impacting player behavior to the betterment of the game? 4) What are potential solutions to correct the issue
If you can logically get to the 4th question then there is cause for change. If not then the status quo should remain.
I have my opinions on the matter and in the end all any one in this discussion can express are their opinions.
My answers to the questions: 1) Definitely the current situation is unhealthy for the overall health of FW and the game 2) perhaps changing the nature of FW combat plex's does go against the sandbox ethos, depending on the changes brought forth 3) Absolutely there is precedent and not just in FW. 4 Options mentioned so far are: 4a) Timer rollbacks based on some roll back function that resets the timer to its natural state when the plex is unoccupied 4b) Faction specific timers in the plex that have independent timers 4c) Another option is to have 2 classes of combat plex's similar to the combat exploration anomalies. One geared toward new players and farmers that has a reduced payout and significantly reduced impact on WZ control. The other geared toward combat that has a high LP payout and high impact on WZ control.
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Davir Sometaww
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
8
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Posted - 2013.12.11 17:00:00 -
[305] - Quote
I support and agree with all the comments made by my fellow QCATS here.
These minor changes suggested would vastly improve all aspects of FW.
Trust me, its so irritating waiting for that cloaked AND stabbed farmer only to kill/pod him three times. And guess what...he returns for another agonizing waiting till he makes a mistake. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
634
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 17:50:00 -
[306] - Quote
Tzenick wrote:FW mechanic to just another ISK faucet free for the taking
LP is an ISK sink. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Dread Operative
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
214
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Posted - 2013.12.11 17:52:00 -
[307] - Quote
Obv troll is troll.
Anyhow, I support this product.
Farming alts have definitely killed my desire to log in, from 300+ kills to 4 in the last 5 months. I am in an almost constant battle to defend my home system with little to no pvp just and spend hour of my time deplexing for little to no reward to undo or prevent damage that is done by someones alt.
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Starbuck05
The Mjolnir Bloc B O R G
74
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Posted - 2013.12.11 17:55:00 -
[308] - Quote
Just to tell a little story myself relative to the matter, earlier today i opened up a medium plex in nenna,me beeing cal mil it was offensive plexing. For all the right reasons of fw i was hoping to get a good fight but if none came i was happy to get the lp. In the course of 15 out of the 20 minutes i was visited frequently by 3 other cal mil guys from the npc miltia corp in t1 frigs. Around 3 mins left on the plex they suddenly left , i was not looking at d-scan, only to see seconds later a gal mil punisher and fed navy comet came in(i was in a comet aswell) and because i wasnt watching d-scan i got tackled,somehow i managed to pull a win by fending of the comet and close orbit kiling the punisher after. And quickly after that my 3 " buddies came back" right before plex was done... Yey for pro cal mil...
Conclusion, because the curent plex mechanics is so bad it has given birth to these types of players ( whom i can easly assume they had stabs ). God knows if the standing hit was not affecting my corp from beeing booted and looking bad id be shooting npc miltia blues all day long because that is what they deserve!
You wanna join fw to make isk?,fine by me but go run missions damnit. You wanna join fw to make isk BUT also care to defend your plex or help take systems? Great! Lemme throw out the red carpet you ar more then welcomed to share my plex!
We need a change! -á- I am the commanding officer , u should adress me as sir ! -á- But if i call u sir , what would i call your wife then ?? |
Burtakus
Genstar Inc
10
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Posted - 2013.12.11 18:00:00 -
[309] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:This is basically a stealth "force PvErs to PvP" thread.
Or a "How dare you challenge my ability to make a lot of isk with no effort, no risk, and no investment in SP/Ships/Fittings" |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
634
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 18:02:00 -
[310] - Quote
Roime wrote:If you haven't noticed, people don't really disagree with me- please note that I'm not only talking for myself. Numerous people from different militias, ex-militia members and even farmers themselves agree that the system has a flaw, and it needs fixing. This issue is not new, the solutions presented here are not new or my personal ideas.
Actually most of the people who are in your camp ITT are... in your corp, QQCats. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
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Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
634
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 18:04:00 -
[311] - Quote
Burtakus wrote:Xuixien wrote:This is basically a stealth "force PvErs to PvP" thread. Or a "How dare you challenge my ability to make a lot of isk with no effort, no risk, and no investment in SP/Ships/Fittings"
40-50mil/hr is "a lot of ISK"? Damn son, you need to try WHs. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Shadow Adanza
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
117
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 18:07:00 -
[312] - Quote
Some people just want to watch the world burn.
Timer rollbacks: Yes, please.
One bright spot of our stabbed farmers is I've been getting kills with a dual-scram Crucifier, which I didn't get a chance to use before this stabbed/cloaky/kick-you-out-of-your-home-without-risking-anything-myself bs, and it is a very sexy ship. The neatly designed gold plates on the arm shimmer nicely off the accel gate as I warp in to sit inside the plex with my cloaked adversary. From there, I question why the middle has these rigid lines on the square-shaped intrusion... or why it even has the intrusion at all as it looks rather silly and hurts an otherwise beautiful ship while running the farmer's timer down.
Also, my fellow QCats make excellent points and people who actually care about FW are, indeed, burning out. As an alliance, we're highly active in defending our home systems and we see the problem first hand all day, every day and it says a lot about our dedication that Nisuwa and Notoras STAY stable all day, every day. Are you suggesting coconuts migrate? |
Shadow Adanza
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
117
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 18:12:00 -
[313] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:Last month QCats scord 5k kills.
Clearly there's not enough PvPers in the warzone with all those farmers around. What can we say? We're clever Cats. :)
Are you suggesting coconuts migrate? |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
634
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 18:20:00 -
[314] - Quote
Notorious Fellon wrote:I adore the cute little grunts who think that stealth and tactics are not allowed in "war".
I bet they hug their guns while they cry themselves asleep at night.
You disgust me.
Here here.
"CCP PL0X NURF GUERRILLAS!" AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
634
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 18:23:00 -
[315] - Quote
Dread Operative wrote:Obv troll is troll. Anyhow, I support this product. Farming alts have definitely killed my desire to log in, from 300+ kills to 4 in the last 5 months. I am in an almost constant battle to defend my home system with little to no pvp just and spend hour of my time deplexing for little to no reward to undo or prevent damage that is done by someones alt.
CCP should come save you. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Burtakus
Genstar Inc
11
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 18:29:00 -
[316] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:Burtakus wrote:Xuixien wrote:This is basically a stealth "force PvErs to PvP" thread. Or a "How dare you challenge my ability to make a lot of isk with no effort, no risk, and no investment in SP/Ships/Fittings" 40-50mil/hr is "a lot of ISK"? Damn son, you need to try WHs.
First, The problem you are facing is that 40-50 mill/hr is about an average. It can be much higher or much lower depending on a few variables across the WZ and the markets. For 99% of my FW activities I am lucky if I am making 4-5 mill per hour.
Second you assume everyone does FW to make isk, that is a false assumption. Personally I don't do FW for isk, I don't even need the LP except for buying stuff at the LP store to fly. I joined FW for the potential for consistent solo and small fleet PvP with a stated objective of combat against the other faction (and neutrals/pirates). The Status quo of farming to farm isk only and directly impacting WZ control means I now have to essentially have a second job just to maintain access to my ships for little to no PvP. I am not alone in this feeling and it has already driven many from FW and Eve making the feature long term unviable for many.
Third you seem to have very strong opinions and a vested interest in keeping the printing press open to those who have no interest in FW other than isk. Why is this, it sounds like you are part of the problem we are facing and are fearful of losing the gravy train. I know you are not alone.
Fourth, FW is not an isk faucet or a isk sink, it is a very broken isk transfer mechanism that has significantly deviated from its purpose of creating PvP combat driven game content and turned into a risk free effort free isk printer.
If CCP wants to have a healthy FW part of the game something will need to be done to fix this issue. When pilots I know that have been in FW for years are either leaving or not logging into due specifically to these issues highlighted something is wrong with the mechanic. CCP needs to decide if FW is so alts can effortlessly and risk free print isk or if FW is for PvP combat driven game content with a funding mechanism to enable those players to afford the losses that come with Pvp/
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Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3875
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Posted - 2013.12.11 18:35:00 -
[317] - Quote
RAW23 wrote: Now this is just embarrassing. The proof is in the threads in WT. You know that your views are not held by all FW pilots. I'm pretty damn certain that the 4000 guys in TEST don't agree with you.
The 4000 guys in TEST clearly declared their intentions to join FW- to farm ISK for other activities they pursue after leaving FW. This proves our point, not yours.
Feel free to make a poll among FW pilots, or quote FW pilots who support farming. We are all ears.
Quote: Dude! You just said I was pursuing a strawman when I was arguing against this. Now you are claiming it is an overwhelming factor! That is just ... I don't even have words for that switch in the space of two posts.
Overwhelming yes, just like I've said all the time. Your claim was "all my time", hence a strawman. You seem to get easily confused.
Quote:Now THAT is a strawman! Congratulations. But no. I'm not confirming that at all, as you well know. See, yet another example of histrionics and a refusal to engage in good faith. I don't farm plexes and I can't imagine why anyone would. I pull about 800mil an hour from market activities. Propping up plex farming for my own benefit is just not on my agenda.
Has three secret alts in FW, defends alt farming fiercely, totally not a farmer. You know it would be trivially easy to prove it isn't so, but you must be busy "updating market orders".
Still waiting for your list of reasons why plex farming is so wonderful that it needs to be preserved. Even a single argument would help your cause at this point, since your posts have degenerated into meaningless mumbling about semantics and trying to convince us that plex farming isn't a real issue to us.
~Elite PVPer~ and Supreme Commander of the Gallente Militia |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos
60
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 18:35:00 -
[318] - Quote
GalMIl pilot here, sitting in Eha where we don't have to deal with solo stabbed cloaked farming alts much. 40 man CalMil plexing fleets are more the order of the day.
I am of the opinion that if you want to claim space, especially in FW, you have to work for it. If you want to keep a system at a low contested percentage, that means you do the scut work of sitting in a plex for a godawful amount of time for minimal reward. The LP / implied isk payout for offensive plexing is deliberately much higher than for defensive plexing, and for good reason - without that skew there'd be little reason to offensive plex. The increased reward and inconvenience wouldn't be worth it.
So yes - you want to keep your home, work for it. Spend the time chasing out the farmers, patrol the plexes, run the timers down. There's no room (IMO) for nullbear AFK "we've planted our flag and don't wanna work for it" types of control in FW. I *LIKE* the fact that the systems you control in FW are a fairly direct reflection of how much effort you're willing to put in patrolling and defending them.
I do agree that the time burden of having to undo all their work skews things way out of whack, especially when combined with the relative rewards. Having to spend 29 minutes to undo 14 minutes of work (or 39 for 19) is just brutal. You're forced to spend up to twice the time for 1/2 or less of the rewards - or an even larger disparity depending on comparative Tiers.
I don't care about stabbed and cloaked alts - I've learned they make no difference to the control of any system that's actively patrolled by either side. They don't impact our offensives when we decide to take a system, and they don't impact the control of a system that's actively defended. They are a non-issue in those cases.
Where they do impact control is in pushing backwater systems, which pushes tier / warzone control, which brings the bandwagon brigades out. Which, as another commenter has noted, has far more to do with relative numbers than anything else. And again, even those hordes can't take defended systems - not without thousands and thousands of ships sacrificed to the Wreck Gods.
So... if there's any change, I think that independent timers should be it. That allows a pilot to push out a farmer - or take it from a dedicated defender, either way - and not have to put in extra time just to undo the time the other guy put in. In that case, I'd also propose and support increasing the time required to cap a plex - or make the defensive timer shorter than the offensive one.
In any case, dual timers or timer rollbacks will significantly increase the difficulty of taking defended systems. Something to keep in mind. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
634
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 18:36:00 -
[319] - Quote
Burtakus wrote:Second you assume everyone does FW to make isk,
Where?
Burtakus wrote:The Status quo of farming to farm isk only
False premise.
Burtakus wrote:Third you seem to have very strong opinions and a vested interest in keeping the printing press open to those who have no interest in FW other than isk. Why is this, it sounds like you are part of the problem we are facing and are fearful of losing the gravy train. I know you are not alone.
Simple smear tactics: "If you disagree with our (terrible) arguments, then it's obvious you're a dirty farmer! You only disagree with us out of bias, not because our arguments are terrible!"
Your arguments are in fact terrible, and I currently have zero characters in any militia.
Burtakus wrote:Fourth, FW is not an isk faucet or a isk sink, it is a very broken isk transfer mechanism that has significantly deviated from its purpose of creating PvP combat driven game content and turned into a risk free effort free isk printer.
FW is in fact an ISK sink as ISK is removed from the game to cash in LP.
Also, QQCats alone scored 5k kills just last month. I'd say FW is creating a lot of PvP.
Burtakus wrote: When pilots I know that have been in FW for years are either leaving or not logging into due specifically to these issues highlighted something is wrong with the mechanic.
People quitting simply shows that they are individually unhappy, not that there is anything actually wrong with the game. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Davir Sometaww
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
10
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 18:48:00 -
[320] - Quote
We have accurately described the problem to you Xuixien and you choose to ignore all proof that is presented. In addition, don't get me wrong but you seem to be trolling this thread.
In none of your posts have you tried to acknowledge on working out a solution or why there is a problem.
Aside from that:
I do think that a rollback timer needs to be implemented in defensive plexing to prevent / halt cloaky/stabbed farmers.
I do NOT suggest banning cloaks in general would cut off a lot of variety in plexes.
Warp Core Stabs need a bigger penalty for their use. Suggest increasing the power grid considerably. |
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Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3877
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 18:51:00 -
[321] - Quote
Xuixien wrote: People quitting simply shows that they are individually unhappy, not that there is anything actually wrong with the game.
When many people are individually unhappy enough to quit, it does in fact show that there is something wrong the game.
On the other hand, a single, unrelated person randomly trolling a thread doesn't mean that there is nothing wrong the game.
~Elite PVPer~ and Supreme Commander of the Gallente Militia |
Burtakus
Genstar Inc
11
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 18:51:00 -
[322] - Quote
Useless trolling from a troll who has no interest in the issues at hand, unless you read his postings, doing nothing but polluting what could be a useful and productive conversation and turning it into one big hahahaha moment for said troll in a feeble attempt to either preserve his abuse of game mechanics or to just be a troll for ***** and giggles. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
634
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 18:54:00 -
[323] - Quote
Davir Sometaww wrote:We have accurately described the problem to you Xuixien and you choose to ignore all proof that is presented.
You haven't presented any "proof". You've presented evidence in the form of anecdotes and how you feel about things and your opinion on what FW "should" be.
In other words you have presented a very flimsy case.
Davir Sometaww wrote:In addition, don't get me wrong but you seem to be trolling this thread.
I admit that I am mildly trolling because a lot of the things you guys post are ridiculous.
Davir Sometaww wrote:In none of your posts have you tried to acknowledge on working out a solution or why there is a problem.
Could it be that... GASP... I don't agree with you that there is a problem that requires a solution!
(See, that's what I mean when I say you guys post some ridiculous things.)
Davir Sometaww wrote:I do think that a rollback timer needs to be implemented in defensive plexing to prevent / halt cloaky/stabbed farmers.
"Any effort spent in dplexing our home systems behind warping in a gang to chase of 1 plexer is too much for us to bear. CCP, you're our only hope." AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
635
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 18:56:00 -
[324] - Quote
Roime wrote:When many people are individually unhappy enough to quit, it does in fact show that there is something wrong the game.
Cool. Well how "many" people have quit the game because of cloaked farmers?
(Oh wait, that's a hard question, so you'll probably just avoid it and accuse me of trolling....)
Roime wrote:On the other hand, a single, unrelated person randomly trolling a thread doesn't mean that there is nothing wrong the game.
Wow this is just... a triumph in logic right there. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Shakira Khalessi
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
12
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Posted - 2013.12.11 19:02:00 -
[325] - Quote
I think the developers have a good handle on this thing.
There is way too much personal bias and you play the game the way I want you too type stuff in this proposal to be taken seriously by the devs. It is not like this exact kind of thread has not been brought up by the same small group of people before.
This is pure nonsense. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
635
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 19:05:00 -
[326] - Quote
Shakira Khalessi wrote:I think the developers have a good handle on this thing.
There is way too much personal bias and you play the game the way I want you too type stuff in this proposal to be taken seriously by the devs. It is not like this exact kind of thread has not been brought up by the same small group of people before.
This is pure nonsense.
No! I don't like what you're saying! You're just a troll! People have quit over this issue! Factional WARFARE should be that and NOTHING MORE!!!!!!! AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Burtakus
Genstar Inc
11
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Posted - 2013.12.11 19:05:00 -
[327] - Quote
Shakira Khalessi wrote:I think the developers have a good handle on this thing.
There is way too much personal bias and you play the game the way I want you too type stuff in this proposal to be taken seriously by the devs. It is not like this exact kind of thread has not been brought up by the same small group of people before.
This is pure nonsense.
If the status quo continues FW will disapear and be relegated to generating isk and producing faction ships/mods
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Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
635
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 19:08:00 -
[328] - Quote
Burtakus wrote:FW is dying.
FW was nothing before.
Now it's relevant enough that entire alliances are joining it.
INB4 "they just join for ISK" - if you think that Nulli, Agony, and TEST didn't/aren't bringing the fights, then you need to stop obsessing over WCS and actually get out into the WZ. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Burtakus
Genstar Inc
11
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Posted - 2013.12.11 19:12:00 -
[329] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:Burtakus wrote:FW is dying. FW was nothing before. Now it's relevant enough that entire alliances are joining it. INB4 "they just join for ISK" - if you think that Nulli, Agony, and TEST didn't/aren't bringing the fights, then you need to stop obsessing over WCS and actually get out into the WZ.
Hard to get into the "Warzone" when I have to defend my home against farmers with almost all of my Eve time. Therein lies the issue. Can't fight the war because we are fighting the farmers who don't care about FW beyond transferring isk to another character.
And yes, I agree that TEST does bring fights. I do appreciate that when I can engage. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
636
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 19:14:00 -
[330] - Quote
Burtakus wrote:Xuixien wrote:Burtakus wrote:FW is dying. FW was nothing before. Now it's relevant enough that entire alliances are joining it. INB4 "they just join for ISK" - if you think that Nulli, Agony, and TEST didn't/aren't bringing the fights, then you need to stop obsessing over WCS and actually get out into the WZ. Hard to get into the "Warzone" when I have to defend my home against farmers with almost all of my Eve time. Therein lies the issue. Can't fight the war because we are fighting the farmers who don't care about FW beyond transferring isk to another character. And yes, I agree that TEST does bring fights. I do appreciate that when I can engage.
EDIT: Because what I posted was admittedly unfair.
Okay so what you're saying is you want defending your home to be quicker (ie, timer rollbacks)?
That's basically the whole premise behind the rollback suggestion, right? AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
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