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Remiel Pollard
Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking
2018
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Posted - 2013.11.30 20:41:00 -
[121] - Quote
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Lady Areola Fappington wrote: I've had a few jobs where, on doing a little investigation, I've found that I was the lowest paid member on the team. The "off the record" reason given was, if I didn't pan out in the stereotypically "male" position, the company wouldn't be wasting as much money on me.
Some employers will also pay a woman less operating on the assumption that "She'll get pregnant and have to take time off". You honestly see most of this happen in the "small-business" world.
What you have shown is that in some smaller demographics, a gender pay-gap still exists due to discrimination. This doesn't reflect the whole business world, but tends to occur in smaller businesses. From your description, I could only guess the reason this discrimination exists is because women in positions such as yours aren't aware of their rights and are not pursuing legal action when their rights have been violated. In your case, where you claim to have found evidence, I certainly hope you sought legal advice to help prevent this from happening to others. It's very, very difficult to prove such things, unless very blatant.
Bank statements? You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Riot Girl
Krypteia Operations CODE.
2073
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Posted - 2013.11.30 20:45:00 -
[122] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Gee it's almost as if those who do studies know how to control for different factors. Yes, like when the earnings of economics majors are compared with the earnings of sociology majors because they're basically the same thing, I guess. Oh god. |
Remiel Pollard
Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking
2018
|
Posted - 2013.11.30 20:49:00 -
[123] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Tippia wrote:the last 10GÇô20% of the gap Is this a 10-20% gap in specific jobs where males and females are equally educated, have equal experience and working equal hours, or is this gap just a general statistic about average male wages vs average female wages? If it's the latter, it doesn't necessarily indicate discrimination. More evidence would need to be provided to make that assessment. In all likelihood, it's due to a difference in lifestyle choices between average men and women. Gee it's almost as if those who do studies know how to control for different factors.
They do. The more recent studies coming out are showing a trending drop in occupational inequality. Not studies from 1994-2004, recent ones from last year and the year before.
I've noticed a feminist influence creeping into Wikipedia lately, and the article there in occupational inequality is referencing some very out of date studies. I think it's safe to assume that you might be only privy to some very out of date studies yourself. Honestly, I'm no trying to insult you or troll you, but I think whatever the source of your facts is, it is most likely very wrong now. Maybe it was right then, but it's probably wrong now.
Occupational inequality still exists, but not on a wide scale, and not so much as a result of occupational segregation as it once was. And there are, indeed, legal means available to anyone who is subjected to occupational inequality, including men. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
6528
|
Posted - 2013.11.30 20:56:00 -
[124] - Quote
Pay inequality is only a very small part of a larger and significantly more complex issue. Sure there's progress being made, but that doesn't mean our work is done. Not by far. EVE Online - An Unstable Game |
Riot Girl
Krypteia Operations CODE.
2073
|
Posted - 2013.11.30 21:03:00 -
[125] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Pay inequality is only a very small part of a larger and significantly more complex issue. Sure there's progress being made, but that doesn't mean our work is done. Not by far. Feminism is a positive influence on global society and I admire your commitment to supporting that.
Oh god. |
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS type X
98
|
Posted - 2013.11.30 21:10:00 -
[126] - Quote
constant pleas to nerf the game playing style of other players to benefit the plaintiff. Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
6528
|
Posted - 2013.11.30 21:11:00 -
[127] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Pay inequality is only a very small part of a larger and significantly more complex issue. Sure there's progress being made, but that doesn't mean our work is done. Not by far. Feminism is a positive influence on global society and I admire your commitment to supporting that. To be honest I'm not quite the advocate I could be. Most of my energy goes into self improvement. But I do like to debate and educate on the issues involved.
I don't champion feminism in of itself. It's just one of several movements for social equality that I support. EVE Online - An Unstable Game |
Captain Tardbar
Sons of Sam
751
|
Posted - 2013.11.30 21:48:00 -
[128] - Quote
Quote:1. Griefers
Arguably this class of player, which tops our list, could encapsulate everything here, but the thing about griefers is that they have no real agenda or tactic other than to make your life hell, and they'll do anything to do so, as if they have a condition that makes them want to be idiots, and an unexplainable hatred for you. Even scores, kill counts or any reward means nothing to these morons, who will even sacrifice themselves to cause you grief.
This totally unreasonable, childish and downright ridiculous behaviour is enough to make normal gamers shun multiplayer completely, and much like online forums, there's an ever growing presence of them, and all they want is to irritate and get a rise out of people, only in games they can do that in a way that doesn't require knowledge of the English language, something that's all too noticeable in forums.
There's simply no reasoning with them or explanation for their actions - all you can do is ignore them, or leave the game. Whatever you do, though, never fuel them by rising to their provocations, it's just like lighting a match in a room full of fireworks. You'll find griefers in almost every game, from CoD to Minecraft.
Sounds about right. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. Captain Tardbar: The official grumpy cat of General Discussion. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
6531
|
Posted - 2013.11.30 23:08:00 -
[129] - Quote
Regarding the gender bender thing: I have female characters. Lots of guys do. I don't think that qualifies because they're not trying to make other people think they're actually female. EVE Online - An Unstable Game |
Bronto Scorpio
72
|
Posted - 2013.11.30 23:15:00 -
[130] - Quote
That list was full of such butthurt at many things
I did like the Offspring reference though ^_^ |
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Lady Areola Fappington
New Order Logistics CODE.
908
|
Posted - 2013.11.30 23:32:00 -
[131] - Quote
Bronto Scorpio wrote:That list was full of such butthurt, it also seemed like he challenged himself to see how many times he can mention GTA Online
I did like the Offspring reference though ^_^
Honestly, it's all about the drive to feel superior to another group of humans. We used to be a lot more blatant in the past with things like racism and such.
Now it's a little more covert. "Look at all these social justice things I'm being offended by. I'm a better person than you because I care so much about the poor oppressed (group). Obviously they need my superior assistance with their issues, seeing as how they can't handle it themselves, being all inferior and stuff." The risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP). |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1729
|
Posted - 2013.12.01 00:29:00 -
[132] - Quote
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:Bronto Scorpio wrote:That list was full of such butthurt, it also seemed like he challenged himself to see how many times he can mention GTA Online
I did like the Offspring reference though ^_^ Honestly, it's all about the drive to feel superior to another group of humans. We used to be a lot more blatant in the past with things like racism and such. Now it's a little more covert. "Look at all these social justice things I'm being offended by. I'm a better person than you because I care so much about the poor oppressed (group). Obviously they need my superior assistance with their issues, seeing as how they can't handle it themselves, being all inferior and stuff."
This. The only place I've actually found casual racism in real life is at the hands of the people who call it out in everyone but themselves.
And as for this thread devolving into feminism... I believe I shall abstain this time. Being in the military at present, it's somewhat skewed in the exact opposite direction that most would believe, and I do not think I am objective on the issue any longer. So o7 on that one. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
6533
|
Posted - 2013.12.01 00:36:00 -
[133] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Lady Areola Fappington wrote:Bronto Scorpio wrote:That list was full of such butthurt, it also seemed like he challenged himself to see how many times he can mention GTA Online
I did like the Offspring reference though ^_^ Honestly, it's all about the drive to feel superior to another group of humans. We used to be a lot more blatant in the past with things like racism and such. Now it's a little more covert. "Look at all these social justice things I'm being offended by. I'm a better person than you because I care so much about the poor oppressed (group). Obviously they need my superior assistance with their issues, seeing as how they can't handle it themselves, being all inferior and stuff." This. The only place I've actually found casual racism in real life is at the hands of the people who call it out in everyone but themselves. Curious to hear your reasoning on that.
EVE Online - An Unstable Game |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1729
|
Posted - 2013.12.01 00:45:00 -
[134] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Lady Areola Fappington wrote:Bronto Scorpio wrote:That list was full of such butthurt, it also seemed like he challenged himself to see how many times he can mention GTA Online
I did like the Offspring reference though ^_^ Honestly, it's all about the drive to feel superior to another group of humans. We used to be a lot more blatant in the past with things like racism and such. Now it's a little more covert. "Look at all these social justice things I'm being offended by. I'm a better person than you because I care so much about the poor oppressed (group). Obviously they need my superior assistance with their issues, seeing as how they can't handle it themselves, being all inferior and stuff." This. The only place I've actually found casual racism in real life is at the hands of the people who call it out in everyone but themselves. Curious to hear your reasoning on that.
Well, I view "casual" racism as being the kind that isn't torches and pitchforks, or yelling about it on TV or other random crap like that. It's passive, not active.
And typically the people complaining about it that I have ever encountered are people who, by virtue of their attitude, are casual racists themselves. Mostly because the pervading view amongst quite a few establishments is that by saying things like "I can't stand racism" allows you to claim the moral high ground.
Basically they are like the Prius drivers of racial societal relations. They don't do it because it's the "right" thing to do, they do it because it makes them feel intellectually superior to a group of people they've probably never actually encountered. (sound familiar?) It's emotional fluffing for them, not any kind of genuine morality.
Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Na Und
Galactronics
110
|
Posted - 2013.12.01 01:03:00 -
[135] - Quote
Hey James, here's a link for you. Please take the time to read it.
An Analysis of Reasons for the Disparity in Wages Between Men and Women.
There will be a quiz on Friday. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1729
|
Posted - 2013.12.01 01:13:00 -
[136] - Quote
So they have 3 times as many workers in part time jobs, 3-4 times as many do not work, and there is a approx. 7% gap in Bachelor's and below in college education in favor of the female?
Good Lord, that actually paints the disparity in favor the female, when those factors are taken into account. Individual experiences may vary. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Lady Areola Fappington
New Order Logistics CODE.
909
|
Posted - 2013.12.01 01:54:00 -
[137] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:So they have 3 times as many workers in part time jobs, 3-4 times as many do not work, and there is a approx. 7% gap in Bachelor's and below in college education in favor of the female? Good Lord, that actually paints the disparity to favor the female, when those factors are taken into account. Individual experiences may vary.
It's a damn complex issue for sure, and not something you can really break down into nice simple forum posts. It does a disservice to just take a stance, stick fingers in ears, and go "nah nah I'm right you're wrong!".
We haven't even touched on how protected class laws actually put protected classes at a disadvantage when it comes to hiring and promotion. Simply put, if there's legal risk in hiring one group of people over another, then it's just good business to hire the unprotected group, and not expose your company to risk. Example, James and Janet both apply to a position. There's a non-zero chance that, sometime during her employment, Janet may bring a discrimination lawsuit against the company. Hire James, he's safer.
To keep this somewhat Eve relevant, I find the whole "all females are males" thing extremely annoying. I can't just say "I'm a woman playing Eve". I'm expected to go out of my way to verify my gender, else I'm just assumed to be Guy In Real Life. Flipside, guys get really, really pissed off when you do the inverse, and just assume them to be female unless proven otherwise. The risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP). |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1731
|
Posted - 2013.12.01 02:04:00 -
[138] - Quote
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:So they have 3 times as many workers in part time jobs, 3-4 times as many do not work, and there is a approx. 7% gap in Bachelor's and below in college education in favor of the female? Good Lord, that actually paints the disparity to favor the female, when those factors are taken into account. Individual experiences may vary. It's a damn complex issue for sure, and not something you can really break down into nice simple forum posts. It does a disservice to just take a stance, stick fingers in ears, and go "nah nah I'm right you're wrong!". We haven't even touched on how protected class laws actually put protected classes at a disadvantage when it comes to hiring and promotion. Simply put, if there's legal risk in hiring one group of people over another, then it's just good business to hire the unprotected group, and not expose your company to risk. Example, James and Janet both apply to a position. There's a non-zero chance that, sometime during her employment, Janet may bring a discrimination lawsuit against the company. Hire James, he's safer. To keep this somewhat Eve relevant, I find the whole "all females are males" thing extremely annoying. I can't just say "I'm a woman playing Eve". I'm expected to go out of my way to verify my gender, else I'm just assumed to be Guy In Real Life. Flipside, guys get really, really pissed off when you do the inverse, and just assume them to be female unless proven otherwise.
Heh, and I know you will get this reference, but the protected class thing is on full display in the military. I know you haven't been in for a little while, but in the last couple of years especially, it's getting worse.
And as for the G.I.R.L. issue. Idk. I can't say that I've ever really been upset about being assumed to be female when playing a female character. Haven't seen that many instances of it in others, either. I'd say about 50/50.
But as to the assumption itself. Speaking as a man, I myself simply go with the most likely assumption. And given my own and other's previous interactions online, it's often both safer and easier to assume I am speaking to a male until proven otherwise. And if proven wrong, I am happy to accept that, shift you into the correct mental category, and move on. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
6535
|
Posted - 2013.12.01 02:09:00 -
[139] - Quote
Your willingness to believe that a single study disproves decades of studies in gender disparities is pretty telling. I'll get to the actual study later. EVE Online - An Unstable Game |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1731
|
Posted - 2013.12.01 02:15:00 -
[140] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Your willingness to believe that a single study disproves decades of studies in gender disparities is pretty telling. I'll get to the actual study later.
"disproves"? Hardly, and I said no such thing.
I said that the results they showed indicate that something besides what is assumed to be norm, is actually the case. Unlike a great deal of the "decades of gender studies", the neutrality of the Department of Labor is fairly easily established, as well.
Oh, and my "results my vary" comment went over your head, I believe. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
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Eurydia Vespasian
Storm Hunters
4473
|
Posted - 2013.12.01 02:18:00 -
[141] - Quote
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:To keep this somewhat Eve relevant, I find the whole "all females are males" thing extremely annoying. I can't just say "I'm a woman playing Eve". I'm expected to go out of my way to verify my gender, else I'm just assumed to be Guy In Real Life. Flipside, guys get really, really pissed off when you do the inverse, and just assume them to be female unless proven otherwise.
I have long since ceased to care if some random fellow or fellows on a video game or forum or any other electronic media believe I am a woman or not. if someone asks for my gender, i'll provide that information. what they do with it in their minds from there is totally on them. matters not to me one bit. just because so and so from such and such game doesn't believe when I tell them doesn't mean I magically grow a *****.
however, not to give too much credit to doubters...if I saw someone named lady areola fappington claiming to be a woman even someone as easy going and uncaring about such things as myself might raise an eyebrow. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
6536
|
Posted - 2013.12.01 02:21:00 -
[142] - Quote
I misunderstood you then. I thought you were implying that the study demonstrated that the disparity favors women. EVE Online - An Unstable Game |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1732
|
Posted - 2013.12.01 02:29:00 -
[143] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Your willingness to believe that a single study disproves decades of studies in gender disparities is pretty telling. I'll get to the actual study later. "disproves"? Hardly, and I said no such thing. I said that the results they showed indicate that something besides what is assumed to be norm, is actually the case. Unlike a great deal of the "decades of gender studies", the neutrality of the Department of Labor is fairly easily established, as well. Oh, and my "results my vary" comment went over your head, I believe. I misunderstood you then. I thought you were implying that the study demonstrated that the disparity favors women.
No, I said that the educational one certainly does for the majority of the workforce below a Masters' level of education. And that it's fairly apparent.
However, the data involved is... very interesting to say the least. The percentages of time worked for overtime pay at the very least goes a long way to explaining the common knowledge of the supposed disparity.
I take nothing as fact merely because someone says so emphatically. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
6537
|
Posted - 2013.12.01 02:38:00 -
[144] - Quote
Well yes, there are now more women getting bachelor's degrees than men. Why that is is particularly difficult to say. I hold certain opinions that make me rather unpopular with certain feminists. I'm certainly not one to say that disparities are entirely one-sided. Very rarely is that actually the case. For example, there are certainly disparities with regards to things like family courts awarding child custody almost exclusively to women. There are also very significant numbers of feminists who believe that domestic violence, ****, etc. are problems that only women face - attitudes which are particularly damaging to male victims of these crimes ("men can't be raped", "men always want it", "men are physically stronger so they can't be victims of abuse", etc.). EVE Online - An Unstable Game |
Gealbhan
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
488
|
Posted - 2013.12.01 02:39:00 -
[145] - Quote
That article is about as useful as **** on a boar hog. |
Proletariat Tingtango
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
710
|
Posted - 2013.12.01 02:49:00 -
[146] - Quote
gender studies isn't scientific at all and its hilarious that people regard it as legitimate as real sciences but i digress, this is an awful discussion and you should all stop talking about stupid **** like this. Go register on Something Awful and post like a ****** in the E/N femninsm forums if you want to wax poetic about your poor social struggles. This thread is about a moron who is offended by literally every single gamer subculture. Mock him. SHut up about gender/feminism issues. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1732
|
Posted - 2013.12.01 02:50:00 -
[147] - Quote
Quote:Why that is is particularly difficult to say.
No, it isn't. I worked in a college in a number of positions for quite a while.
They have over-emphasized incentives to minority groups, of which women are considered one. This has resulted in turning the disparity on it's head. But you can spin it upside down and it's still a disparity. And idk where I heard it but someone told a long time ago that 2 wrongs don't make a right.
Quote:For example, there are certainly disparities with regards to things like family courts awarding child custody almost exclusively to women.
This is actually symptomatic of a very problematic societal issue. Equal treatment under the law is no longer a reasonable assumption. It is not easy to describe how incredibly bad this is. Not to mention that the perception of it creates resentment that is actually justified.
Quote:There are also very significant numbers of feminists who believe that domestic violence, ****, etc. are problems that only women face - attitudes which are particularly damaging to male victims of these crimes ("men can't be raped", "men always want it", "men are physically stronger so they can't be victims of abuse", etc.).
You may be unaware of this, but in the United States there is almost no legal definition by which a woman can **** a man. The legal term is Forcible Envelopment, and is legally distinct from **** as a crime, both in terms of sentencing and in statistical accounting as such. It has served to skew the entire debate toward "women's issues", effectively marginalizing a considerable portion of the population in the discussion.
Which goes back to the whole "equal treatment" thing no longer being an assumption one can reasonably make when a female is involved. It is both reasonable and intelligent to assume one will in fact, not be treated fairly in any legal situation involving a female. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
6538
|
Posted - 2013.12.01 02:51:00 -
[148] - Quote
Proletariat Tingtango wrote:gender studies isn't scientific at all and its hilarious that people regard it as legitimate as real sciences but i digress, this is an awful discussion and you should all stop talking about stupid **** like this. Go register on Something Awful and post like a ****** in the E/N femninsm forums if you want to wax poetic about your poor social struggles. This thread is about a moron who is offended by literally every single gamer subculture. Mock him. SHut up about gender/feminism issues. Nobody called it a science (that I know of). Nobody cares that you think it's stupid either. EVE Online - An Unstable Game |
Remiel Pollard
Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking
2021
|
Posted - 2013.12.01 03:03:00 -
[149] - Quote
Proletariat Tingtango wrote:gender studies isn't scientific at all and its hilarious that people regard it as legitimate as real sciences but i digress, this is an awful discussion and you should all stop talking about stupid **** like this. Go register on Something Awful and post like a ****** in the E/N femninsm forums if you want to wax poetic about your poor social struggles. This thread is about a moron who is offended by literally every single gamer subculture. Mock him. SHut up about gender/feminism issues.
The day I take lessons from someone with such poor syntax on what is and isn't science is the day I'll register in that spergepit the SA forums. Until then, I'll get my education from experts with more than 500 citations per paper to their name. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Proletariat Tingtango
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
711
|
Posted - 2013.12.01 04:53:00 -
[150] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Proletariat Tingtango wrote:gender studies isn't scientific at all and its hilarious that people regard it as legitimate as real sciences but i digress, this is an awful discussion and you should all stop talking about stupid **** like this. Go register on Something Awful and post like a ****** in the E/N femninsm forums if you want to wax poetic about your poor social struggles. This thread is about a moron who is offended by literally every single gamer subculture. Mock him. SHut up about gender/feminism issues. The day I take lessons from someone with such poor syntax on what is and isn't science is the day I'll register in that spergepit the SA forums. Until then, I'll get my education from experts with more than 500 citations per paper to their name. you'd actually fit right in hth |
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