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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 20 post(s) |
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Origin. Black Legion.
311
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 17:27:00 -
[1351] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Chris Winter wrote:Can we get a list of which CSM members supported this change, so I know who not to vote for? I supported the change.
Remember that part where you're completely oblivious to even the simplest of game mechanics?
Not surprised you supported this, tbh. No sig. |
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
1
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 17:41:00 -
[1352] - Quote
*IF* RLMLs need a nerf simply reduce their rate of fire. If you want to improve gameplay *reduce reload times*. You can cut turrets to 2.5 secs and launchers to 5 secs and make everyone happy. Doing crap dps with missiles is bad enough without enduring 10 seconds to change from precision to regular. Why in the hell is it 10 seconds to begin with? Terrible game mechanic.
Then, if you want to give us an "Assault RLML" with more front end dps give it a 20 second reload with a smaller clip to make it do less sustained dps than above. This would be a welcome addition to game play and make camps more fun for me. I might actually get on the KM.
A "ASB" type launcher should not be our only option though, or you reduce us to niche tactics.
If RHMLs are the only viable system for BS in your testing (who knew), well getting BS on the field in micro gangs might be a good thing? Just make the fitting requirements so that they only fit on BS. Cruise/Torps missiles need to arrive on target sometime before next week to be viable in small scale PVP.
Lastly, HMLs need a buff (reduce explosion radius). Make them viable against cruisers please so that um, cruisers can fight cruisers in PVP?
Nerf Links, plz. ITT they take HML/HAM missile boats off the field.
TL;DR.
Reload times are a terrible waste of my life but are ok for an "Assault Launcher" option. Emphasis on option.
Fix Heavies against cruisers so cruisers can fight cruisers with heavies. Narf sig Links plx.
Fix Cruise Missiles/Torps so that they arrive on targets before I'm old.
|
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
268
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 17:52:00 -
[1353] - Quote
Bob Niac wrote:Actually, does anyone see a correlation between bomb launchers and the way rapid launchers are being reimagined? Battlecruisers are steath bombers now? Battlecruisers aren't bonuses for RLMLs. As far as stealth, the only moderately effective stealth platform for these will be the Tengu, and it will still be worse than the Proteus or Stratios for stealthy dps.
Quote: Also, y'all know you are not required to link launchers, right? I could have a few double SeBoo Cerbs harrasing 5-6 frigates and destroyer class gangs. Each cerb can go after 3-4 targets at once..
Except that if you do that, you won't be able to kill them before needing to reload... |
Brib Vogt
DC-centre Destiny's Call
39
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 18:14:00 -
[1354] - Quote
Taoist Dragon wrote:Brib Vogt wrote:Was playing around with the rlml on a cerberus against a rocket fitted t2 vengeance. every time it was close to structure the cerb needed to reload. That should not happen, that a hac can't beat an AF.
Same test with raven vs said cerberus. Without overheat raven couldn't kill cerb. Without the fitting of said ship and a clear battle report of how this was tested these type of arguments are exactly what Rise was referring to as basically crap arguments against the changes. Now if you want to get them to take you seriously then post up what fits your were using, what characters/skills etc and actually quote figure from a combat log that you can send to Rise to back up your findings. Do this and i can guarantee a much better chance at getting CCP to listen to you. Otherwise you are just whining that your favorite toy is different and you don't like it. If Rise and co got a load of these reports from multiple sources with realistic fittings etc showing an issue across a number of scenarios then they would take notice. One scrub (or alts of said scrub) constantly bleating 'don't mess with my stuff!' don't sway anyone in a decent argument.
I used a pvp dual anc/small rep fitted all V vengeance against a dual ASB close to all V Cerberus. Besides the fact that this PVP event would to lead only to both fractions to warp away my vengeance dominated the cerberus. And this was without the use of a faction repper i use on TQ. And i am not whining, because i couldn't care less. Never used the damn rapid launcher. I only have them on V because i like to fly destroyers and frigates with LMs.
It was a staged fight with a friend and no will not post fitting details and skills because it is not necessary to do that to see that if a ship survives one magazine of LMs it will survive all the following. --> crap
|
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
421
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 18:19:00 -
[1355] - Quote
Ok, I did some tests with HAM dps and here are my results.
Tested in Pyfa 1.1.16 ; dps values read on the dps graphs with speed and sig values entered manualy. Fit are mostly standard fit I saved with some exception. No implants, fleet boosters or drugs. Base fit : HAM Caracal with 3BCSII & CN ammo, 395 paper dps Numbers with MWD off/on Attack cruisers : Caracal, 2LSEII, 3 shield rigs : 395/388 Thorax, 800mm plate, 3 armor rigs : 300/281 Thorax, FS-9 LSE, 2 shield rigs : 335/296 Omen, 800mm plate, 3 armor rigs : 295/276 Stabber, 1 LSEII, 2 shield rigs : 255/227
combat cruisers : Moa, 2 LSEII, 3 shield rigs : 395/395 Maller, 1600mm plate, 3 armor rigs : 387/395 Vexor, 1600mm plate, 2 armor rigs : 395/392 Vexor, LSEII, overdrive injector, 3 shield rigs : 395/368 Rupture, 800mm plate, 3 armor rigs : 350/345 Rupture, LSEII, 3 shield rigs : 395/373
The numbers speak for themselves actually. Even attack cruisers take at least 70% damage ; combat cruisers take mostly always full damage. Stabber is of course in another league. Remember the missiles have 30km range on a Caracal. Now, if you don't like the fits, feel free to test by yourself.
To conclude, I'd say HAM are fine and people here are bad. Of course AB will reduce damage by approximately 50%, but that's the point of the module.
PS : I can't wait to see what naysayers will say now. :-) |
Mr Gojira
Overview Dynamics Inc
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 18:23:00 -
[1356] - Quote
Viceorvirtue wrote:So heres a bit of a comparison: Imagine you have an omen and a new rlm caracal shooting a target for 50 seconds. They end up doing relatively the same dps.
Now for the next 40 seconds, the caracal does 0 dps while the omen continues doing damage. Rlms currently have the 'interesting decision making' of "hmm, x, y, and z are on the field, what is the best ammo type to use here?'. Don't believe me? Shoot a jaguar with mjolnir fury, or try doing much damage to some afs and intys without swapping to percision ammo. The new rlms would have to wait 40 seconds in order to do this, which is long enough that you might as well leave the field because youll be chased off anyway. This means the only decision making in using new rlms will be 'can I kill the tackle in under 50 seconds assuming I have the right ammo preloaded to do so?' That is not an interesting choice to me.
If the fight lasts longer than 50 seconds, the omen becomes better and the caracal has a random chance of becoming useless or having to leave because suddenly something lands and you cant just reload to the right damage or missile type to kill it. In a small gang situation the new rlm caracal wouldn't want to shoot the primary, it would be too busy reloading incase the tackle that it just killed feels like reshipping. The omen and thorax are able to apply damage to a target regardless of how much ammo they have used and what point of the fight they are at.
I would much prefer a rof nerf and a pg requirement increase as a nerf to rlms. That way I still am able to make decisions about what ammo to use to get the best effect, and with an rlm nerf I would need to make the right ammo choice to be able to kill a number of things at all. Please reconsider this change, there are better ways of nerfing rlm than preventing people from reloading fast enough that missile type is actually a choice you can make during a fight and not something you have to hope you got right when you started engaging.
So as I stated to another person: what part of Rapid launchers being for use against smaller ships than the one your firing from is not being comprehended?
Perhaps the error of CCP RISE is that he is not properly explaining what a smaller ship is. |
Viceorvirtue
The Hatchery Team Liquid
32
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 19:00:00 -
[1357] - Quote
Mr Gojira wrote: So as I stated to another person: what part of Rapid launchers being for use against smaller ships than the one your firing from is not being comprehended?
Perhaps the error of CCP RISE is that he is not properly explaining what a smaller ship is.
What I am saying is that in a number of situations that may be completely beyond your control you might end up with a useless ship. I will have mjolnir percision loaded vs a merlin for example, what happens if he has a friend in a jag warp in before he dies? Even with percisions I wont be able to kill the jag because of it's resist profile. So I would have to give it atleast 40 seconds before I can start trying to force it off me. It likely won't die to a single clip so thats 50 seconds and another 40 second reload. During this reload the jaguar has probably has a decent amount of its shields back so it might take most of the next clip to finish him off. This isn't even taking into account the merlin pilot who has had well over a minute to reship, and may very well have come back in something that I will need to swap ammo for again in order to apply substantial damage to.
This is 130 seconds, over 2 minutes and I still haven't finished the jaguar off because I had mjolnir loaded to kill a merlin. Nerfing the rof of rapid lights and increasing their pg use would mean that it takes me longer to kill the merlin but I can properly react to the jaguar, or whatever additional tackle lands on field during the fight that might present a bigger threat then what I am currently dealing with.
Ships like the omen and thorax, even if they end up shooting em into a jaguar or kin/therm into an ishkur will be able to properly respond to things landing. This is an exceptionally strong case to not use an rlm boat in my eyes and instead use any other weapon system because it will be effective against tackle all the time, with the added bonus of being able to fight things larger than frigates as well as multiple people without having to change the guns its using. |
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
43
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 19:24:00 -
[1358] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Ok, I did some tests with HAM dps and here are my results. ... ... PS : I can't wait to see what naysayers will say now. :-) That you don't have a clue, what else? Take Omen for example, add a frigate and see what happens if you compare graphs with Caracal. Properly piloted Omen will do full damage to both and your HAM Caracal will have a hard time dealing even with T1 frig, what to speak of T2. Now, where goes your damage when we add all those ships with role bonuses, having 50% reduced MWD sig radius penalty - could you do your Pyfa thingy for them too? |
Taoist Dragon
Bastion of Mad Behaviour
663
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 19:43:00 -
[1359] - Quote
Brib Vogt wrote: I used a pvp dual anc/small rep fitted all V vengeance against a dual ASB close to all V Cerberus. Besides the fact that this PVP event would to lead only to both fractions to warp away my vengeance dominated the cerberus. And this was without the use of a faction repper i use on TQ. And i am not whining, because i couldn't care less. Never used the damn rapid launcher. I only have them on V because i like to fly destroyers and frigates with LMs.
It was a staged fight with a friend and no will not post fitting details and skills because it is not necessary to do that to see that if a ship survives one magazine of LMs it will survive all the following. --> crap
Ok starting an argument with a claification that it's not a realistic scenario is a argument 101 fail. You have just stopped any credibility for your argument before you try to build it up.
And without the actuall fits then how can anyone reading your post investigate any numbers/results you are quoting to see if it is actually possible. Once again destroying any case you have built up.
Also you said it yourself, you don't use the module so your argument is invalid and you are just trying to shitstir the people who do use them regularly. That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
Taoist Dragon
Bastion of Mad Behaviour
663
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 19:52:00 -
[1360] - Quote
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:Ok, I did some tests with HAM dps and here are my results. ... ... PS : I can't wait to see what naysayers will say now. :-) That you don't have a clue, what else? Take Omen for example, add a frigate and see what happens if you compare graphs with Caracal. Properly piloted Omen will do full damage to both and your HAM Caracal will have a hard time dealing even with T1 frig, what to speak of T2. Now, where goes your damage when we add all those ships with role bonuses, having 50% reduced MWD sig radius penalty - could you do your Pyfa thingy for them too?
PAF! I have chased load of omens out of fw plexing in my rifters FFS! Cos the target thought 'I'm an omen I'll murder a rifter!' Then suddenly they can't hit me worth a dam and his drones are dead. Then I usually burn out a module or two that makes it a draw and we warp off. RLM cruiser however is a completely different setup and the only other cruiser setup apart from bonused drone boat that I am wary of engaging in a frigate.
And no I'm not an omen hater, I actually really like the ship but really people need to stop overstating how good these cruisers are at taking out small/fast frigs. It is the player who know what he is doing that can do that not the ship itself apart from RLML ships. Currently they just press F1 and watch the frig explode. and then they go and do the same thing to crusiers as they apply 100% of their damage in 99.99% of cases to a cruiser regardless of what the cruiser tries to do.
The new version will still see a RLML murder the typical frig but won't be able to scale the results up to a target the weapons were NOT designed to take on. And HAM Caracal is one of the best RLML carcal killers out there. Seen it many mnay times in FW. That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
|
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
43
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 19:58:00 -
[1361] - Quote
Taoist Dragon wrote: PAF! I have chased load of omens out of fw plexing in my rifters FFS! Cos the target thought 'I'm an omen I'll murder a rifter!' Then suddenly they can't hit me worth a dam and his drones are dead. Then I usually burn out a module or two that makes it a draw and we warp off. RLM cruiser however is a completely different setup and the only other cruiser setup apart from bonused drone boat that I am wary of engaging in a frigate.
And no I'm not an omen hater, I actually really like the ship but really people need to stop overstating how good these cruisers are at taking out small/fast frigs. It is the player who know what he is doing that can do that not the ship itself apart from RLML ships. Currently they just press F1 and watch the frig explode. and then they go and do the same thing to crusiers as they apply 100% of their damage in 99.99% of cases to a cruiser regardless of what the cruiser tries to do.
The new version will still see a RLML murder the typical frig but won't be able to scale the results up to a target the weapons were NOT designed to take on. And HAM Caracal is one of the best RLML carcal killers out there. Seen it many mnay times in FW.
Your point being..? |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4841
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 20:16:00 -
[1362] - Quote
Viceorvirtue wrote:Mr Gojira wrote: So as I stated to another person: what part of Rapid launchers being for use against smaller ships than the one your firing from is not being comprehended?
Perhaps the error of CCP RISE is that he is not properly explaining what a smaller ship is.
What I am saying is that in a number of situations that may be completely beyond your control you might end up with a useless ship. I will have mjolnir percision loaded vs a merlin for example, what happens if he has a friend in a jag warp in before he dies? Even with percisions I wont be able to kill the jag because of it's resist profile. So I would have to give it atleast 40 seconds before I can start trying to force it off me. It likely won't die to a single clip so thats 50 seconds and another 40 second reload. During this reload the jaguar has probably has a decent amount of its shields back so it might take most of the next clip to finish him off. This isn't even taking into account the merlin pilot who has had well over a minute to reship, and may very well have come back in something that I will need to swap ammo for again in order to apply substantial damage to. This is 130 seconds, over 2 minutes and I still haven't finished the jaguar off because I had mjolnir loaded to kill a merlin. Nerfing the rof of rapid lights and increasing their pg use would mean that it takes me longer to kill the merlin but I can properly react to the jaguar, or whatever additional tackle lands on field during the fight that might present a bigger threat then what I am currently dealing with. Ships like the omen and thorax, even if they end up shooting em into a jaguar or kin/therm into an ishkur will be able to properly respond to things landing. This is an exceptionally strong case to not use an rlm boat in my eyes and instead use any other weapon system because it will be effective against tackle all the time, with the added bonus of being able to fight things larger than frigates as well as multiple people without having to change the guns its using. Of course, they could always simply alter the "Change Ammo" mechanic... which is what they have already said they are going to do.
I think you'll also find that this system will deliver quite a bit more actual damage to smaller targets that a standard fit cruiser will in most circumstances. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
43
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 20:30:00 -
[1363] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: I think you'll also find that this system will deliver quite a bit more actual damage to smaller targets that a standard fit cruiser will in most circumstances.
1. How many frigates before reload? 2. What missile system remains to fight cruisers? |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
905
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 20:33:00 -
[1364] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:[ Of course, they could always simply alter the "Change Ammo" mechanic... which is what they have already said they are going to do..
"Hey guys we are going to rework laser turrets - we are increasing cap use 10-fold, but in a few patches we are going to be reworking the bonuses on amarr ships to accommodate this increased cap use)"
This makes sense to you? |
Taoist Dragon
Bastion of Mad Behaviour
663
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 20:45:00 -
[1365] - Quote
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:Taoist Dragon wrote: PAF! I have chased load of omens out of fw plexing in my rifters FFS! Cos the target thought 'I'm an omen I'll murder a rifter!' Then suddenly they can't hit me worth a dam and his drones are dead. Then I usually burn out a module or two that makes it a draw and we warp off. RLM cruiser however is a completely different setup and the only other cruiser setup apart from bonused drone boat that I am wary of engaging in a frigate.
And no I'm not an omen hater, I actually really like the ship but really people need to stop overstating how good these cruisers are at taking out small/fast frigs. It is the player who know what he is doing that can do that not the ship itself apart from RLML ships. Currently they just press F1 and watch the frig explode. and then they go and do the same thing to crusiers as they apply 100% of their damage in 99.99% of cases to a cruiser regardless of what the cruiser tries to do.
The new version will still see a RLML murder the typical frig but won't be able to scale the results up to a target the weapons were NOT designed to take on. And HAM Caracal is one of the best RLML carcal killers out there. Seen it many mnay times in FW.
Your point being..? and 2. What missile system remains to fight cruisers?
Well I guess I need to highlight things more clearly for todays players eh?
The HVM and HAM work fine for killing cruisers. The new RLML will work fine for killing frigs/dessies.
Now for the terminally stoopid among you (you probably don't know who you are but I won't name names) here's a tip.
Missile based cruisers change the weapons to attack different sized targets, HVM & HAM for medium+ sized targets. RLML for small sized targets. These weapons are pretty good at applying damage to their intended targets.
Whereas medium turreted ship need to employ tactics/manual flying to enable them to hit small targets comfortably. No yes a turret cruiser can fit small guns to kill small targets but apart from a few noted example this generally completely gimps said fit.
The current RLML overlap too much into the realm of HVM/HAM performance, similar in the way HVM used to way outshine HAM before they were balanced. The new system will still allow RLML to fullfil the role of anti-frig but also making the choice to fit then a bit more meaningful.
After the changes a long T1 frig will still need balls of steel to attack a RLML cruiser. But a gang can more comfortably engage in a similar mannar to how thay can engage turret based ships. That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
Taoist Dragon
Bastion of Mad Behaviour
663
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 20:47:00 -
[1366] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:[ Of course, they could always simply alter the "Change Ammo" mechanic... which is what they have already said they are going to do.. "Hey guys we are going to rework laser turrets - we are increasing cap use 10-fold, but in a few patches we are going to be reworking the bonuses on amarr ships to accommodate this increased cap use)" This makes sense to you?
Now try and sensible less whiney argument rather than a childlike one please. That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
905
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 20:50:00 -
[1367] - Quote
Taoist Dragon wrote:
The HVM and HAM work fine for killing cruisers. .
Just out of curiosity, when is the last time you have killed a cruiser, with say, fewer than 4 people and/or with anyone in your fleet using hmls? When was the last time you flew something other than a frigate or destroyer?
Edit: Ive gone back 6 months so far and I cant find one, but maybe I missed one? |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4841
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 20:55:00 -
[1368] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:[ Of course, they could always simply alter the "Change Ammo" mechanic... which is what they have already said they are going to do.. "Hey guys we are going to rework laser turrets - we are increasing cap use 10-fold, but in a few patches we are going to be reworking the bonuses on amarr ships to accommodate this increased cap use)" This makes sense to you? To be perfectly frank it's not that high a priority. It needs to be done, but the way these encounters usually play out is you don't switch missiles types in the middle of combat. Most pilots would rather take longer to kill the target with not - so - ideal ammo types than stop firing altogether and swap to a better ammo.
Is that usually the best tactic? No, probably not. But if we are being truthful, in the heat of battle that is usually what happens.
If it turns out to be an easy task I doubt we'd even have to wait for a true point release, but I'd say the chances are good that it touches on some twitchy code that will force us to wait a bit.
As I've said before, I don't really care that much one way or another on the timing... although I do have a slight preference to get my hands on the base mechanics sooner rather than later. Quicker ammo changes aren't a deal breaker to me.
And in the context of this debate I think that flaw keeps getting dragged up as the easiest argument to present as an excuse not to implement the mechanic at all... despite knowing that it will be fixed in relatively short order. If they revealed that they had fixed the change ammo mechanic this morning, those people would simply switch to the next easiest argument to throw out there... primarily because they have no idea how to leverage this to their advantage.
I would strongly advise people to test this mechanic on Sisi in a variety of situations, and give some realistic input on how the ammo capacity, reload timer, and ROF can be best tweaked to obtain the desired results... instead of pulling what if arguments out of their back sides against a mechanic that WILL be implemented in one form or another. THAT would actually have some value. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
905
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 20:57:00 -
[1369] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: To be perfectly frank it's not that high a priority. It needs to be done, but the way these encounters usually play out is you don't switch missiles types in the middle of combat. Most pilots would rather take longer to kill the target with not - so - ideal ammo types than stop firing altogether and swap to a better ammo..
You are constantly swapping ammo in a fight, between damage types, between t2/faction, and into/out of fofs when you get jammed or damped. (Or you should be anyway) |
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
43
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 21:07:00 -
[1370] - Quote
Taoist Dragon wrote: The HVM and HAM work fine for killing cruisers.
Ranger 1 wrote: To be perfectly frank it's not that high a priority. It needs to be done, but the way these encounters usually play out is you don't switch missiles types in the middle of combat.
I refuse to believe you two are serious. Have fun trolling. |
|
Taoist Dragon
Bastion of Mad Behaviour
665
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 21:12:00 -
[1371] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Taoist Dragon wrote:
The HVM and HAM work fine for killing cruisers. .
Just out of curiosity, when is the last time you have killed a cruiser, with say, fewer than 4 people and/or with anyone in your fleet using hmls? When was the last time you flew something other than a frigate or destroyer? Edit: Ive gone back 6 months so far and I cant find one, but maybe I missed one?
Last time in something other than a frig/dessy........hmmm try last night :) This would ahve worked much better with the new RLML by the way.
Arbi fit with RLML (Oh MY!)
Last crusier kill with less then 4 people ok...last month
Stabber wandering around
Oh and a cruiser fight where there were less than 3 of us OMG!!
Cruiser fight in FW
ADmittedly I haven't used HVM in a long time in PVP as I mainly use them in pve grinding in a drake. which works fine BTW.
I think you need to check up on your searching skills.
Ans as I have repeatedly said on these forums. Blagging a KB is quite possibly the worst way to prove a point and just ruins any credibility you may build up with well thought out arguments. But hey you can go and try and way your epeen around more if you like. That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4842
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 21:12:00 -
[1372] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Ranger 1 wrote: To be perfectly frank it's not that high a priority. It needs to be done, but the way these encounters usually play out is you don't switch missiles types in the middle of combat. Most pilots would rather take longer to kill the target with not - so - ideal ammo types than stop firing altogether and swap to a better ammo..
You are constantly swapping ammo in a fight, between damage types, between t2/faction, and into/out of fofs when you get jammed or damped. (Or you should be anyway) Not so much... and really.... someone out their still tries to use fof's?
I'm not going to say that no one ever changes ammo because there are always exceptions to the rule.
But I will say for the average EVE pilot they don't do it in mid combat all that often, even if tactically speaking they should. Usually they will wait until they need to reload anyway.
Now I'm sure you'll try to insist that everybody changes ammo the second they realize that they have a better ammo type on board for their opponent of the moment, but the reality of it is in most fights you'll be engaging a variety of ship types. Most people feel they are better off sticking with what will work on "most" of their opponents and not waste time swapping ammo specific to each ship they happen to be facing at the moment. Now if you are in a 1v1 or other very small engagement that might be a different story, but for most that is NOT the norm.
Not to be a jerk to you, but if your combat technique involves spending time swapping ammo types constantly I'd recommend Amarr.
To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
rhiload Feron-drake
TURN LEFT
6
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 21:14:00 -
[1373] - Quote
rise plz no. stahp |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4842
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 21:14:00 -
[1374] - Quote
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:Taoist Dragon wrote: The HVM and HAM work fine for killing cruisers.
Ranger 1 wrote: To be perfectly frank it's not that high a priority. It needs to be done, but the way these encounters usually play out is you don't switch missiles types in the middle of combat.
I refuse to believe you two are serious. Have fun trolling. I don't know Taoist Dragon, so I can't comment for him.
I will say that I have never had a problem killing cruisers quickly and efficiently with either HVM or HAM... or any other appropriate weapons system for that matter. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Taoist Dragon
Bastion of Mad Behaviour
665
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 21:15:00 -
[1375] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Ranger 1 wrote: To be perfectly frank it's not that high a priority. It needs to be done, but the way these encounters usually play out is you don't switch missiles types in the middle of combat. Most pilots would rather take longer to kill the target with not - so - ideal ammo types than stop firing altogether and swap to a better ammo..
You are constantly swapping ammo in a fight, between damage types, between t2/faction, and into/out of fofs when you get jammed or damped. (Or you should be anyway)
Constantly swapping ammo types just dropps your dps down to abysmal figures...the only time you should be swapping is if you get a new target that is an effective counter fit to your desired weapons or are jammed/damped then you swap to FOF. Constant swapping will just ruin any perceived increase in damage you get from hitting resist holes that is why it is still 95% of the time to use kinetic missiles on the kinetic bonused caldari hulls... That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
Taoist Dragon
Bastion of Mad Behaviour
666
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 21:17:00 -
[1376] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Niena Nuamzzar wrote:Taoist Dragon wrote: The HVM and HAM work fine for killing cruisers.
Ranger 1 wrote: To be perfectly frank it's not that high a priority. It needs to be done, but the way these encounters usually play out is you don't switch missiles types in the middle of combat.
I refuse to believe you two are serious. Have fun trolling. I don't know Taoist Dragon, so I can't comment for him. I will say that I have never had a problem killing cruisers quickly and efficiently with either HVM or HAM... or any other appropriate weapons system for that matter.
Killing cruiser with HVM/HAM is fine and always has been TBH. (well it used to be too easy with the OP HVM) and I I see some anti frig cruisers wandering around I'll pretty much always swap to cruiser killing mode with HAM/HVM (if I'm in the mood to fly caldari that is.) That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
Taoist Dragon
Bastion of Mad Behaviour
666
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 21:17:00 -
[1377] - Quote
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:Taoist Dragon wrote: The HVM and HAM work fine for killing cruisers.
Ranger 1 wrote: To be perfectly frank it's not that high a priority. It needs to be done, but the way these encounters usually play out is you don't switch missiles types in the middle of combat.
I refuse to believe you two are serious. Have fun trolling.
I'm always serious That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4843
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 21:22:00 -
[1378] - Quote
Taoist Dragon wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Ranger 1 wrote: To be perfectly frank it's not that high a priority. It needs to be done, but the way these encounters usually play out is you don't switch missiles types in the middle of combat. Most pilots would rather take longer to kill the target with not - so - ideal ammo types than stop firing altogether and swap to a better ammo..
You are constantly swapping ammo in a fight, between damage types, between t2/faction, and into/out of fofs when you get jammed or damped. (Or you should be anyway) Constantly swapping ammo types just dropps your dps down to abysmal figures...the only time you should be swapping is if you get a new target that is an effective counter fit to your desired weapons or are jammed/damped then you swap to FOF. Constant swapping will just ruin any perceived increase in damage you get from hitting resist holes that is why it is still 95% of the time to use kinetic missiles on the kinetic bonused caldari hulls... Agreed, which is why most people do exactly that.
Typically though, for my part, if I am jammed or damped out I'll use that as a opportunity to warp out and reposition instead of swapping to FoF's. 9 times out of 10 I'll have drones of some type on me as well and the FOF's simply go for them instead of the jamming/dampening vessel.... so unless I'm scrammed I'll just pop out and pop back in again, usually at a more appropriate range, while he's busy jamming/dampening some other poor *******.
To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Viceorvirtue
The Hatchery Team Liquid
32
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 21:30:00 -
[1379] - Quote
Normally if you have the time to swap to fury vs cruisers you will ultimately be doing more damage than if you had stuck with cn. You tend to swap to percisions to remove intys off the field faster (yes it is generally worth doing this when you see it coming in) and for the most part you stick with cn to deal with random tackle until you are at a point where swpping to fury or percision becomes the ideal choice.
Switching to fofs when jammed is not horrible, it pays off if you get jammed for a second cycle immediately and given the rng nature of ecm it's usually the safer call to do so. If you are damped and expect to stay damped for atleast 2 cycles then swapping to fofs is also the safe call in tis case as well.
Yes most people likely don't swap ammo types, but those that do make that decision can gain what may end up being a significant edge. In the case of fofs it's either a great idea or a 'meh' idea but it's nearly always the better call just in case. Ammo switching and reloading is actually an interesting decision making mechanic and I would hate to see it removed as an option for rlms. |
Leto Atal
LoneStar Industries Comatose Alliance
11
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 21:37:00 -
[1380] - Quote
Terrible idea. Echo others in saying it will make them useless for solo work. |
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