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Uncle Gagarin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 10:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi,
As Rubicon brings a lot of changes, most of them are warmly welcome by community I would like to ask question:
- Maybe it's time to remove skillpoint loose when tech3 ship is destroyed ?
What do you think ?
BR, Uncle |
Schmata Bastanold
The brothers inc Brothers Of The Dark Sun
1077
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 10:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
Why? |
Uncle Gagarin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 10:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
Why ? At least three reasons:
- this is main reason people are avoiding tech3 in PvP - there is no other ship lose causing such effect - there are lot of ship balancing/changes done vanishing eventual OP of tech3
BR, Uncle |
Schmata Bastanold
The brothers inc Brothers Of The Dark Sun
1077
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 10:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
From the end: - let's wait for t3 balancing with final verdict about what is OP and what isn't. t2 frigs are also not very much OP after t1 got rebalanced. - there is also no other ship class that can have multiple slots and bonuses configurations on one hull - people who don't use best tool for the job still won't do it.
SP loss is a cost of unique capabilities of t3 ships. And when Rubicon will bring us mobile depots and refitting in all fitting services t3 will gain even more flexibility than they have now. 3 days of training level V back is really not a big deal when you think about advantages those ships give you. |
Uncle Gagarin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 13:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
Well, I would like to point that:
- if you have remap not matching subsystem skill then its not slightly more than 3 days but almost 6 days.
- if you have a battle in your WH (i.e. defend it or attack other one) and loose tech3 ship then in specific case you will not be able to fly it for 6 days. Some fits require i.e. so much powergrid or cpu that subsys must be skilled to 5. This cripples gameplay of all your teammates, not only you.
- tech3 ships are overshaded now in multiple areas by lot of other ships (i.e. t2) which will do same function for much lower price and without a risk of loosing skillpoints at all or do the function better
- there should be only one situation you can loose skillpoints - you get podded without actual clone
- ship usage shouldn't be punished so hard
Regards, Uncle |
Lord Xyon
Team Hemi Coalition of Old Timers
10
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Posted - 2013.11.07 14:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
Having played games in the past like Meridian 59 for example where anytime you die, PVP and PVE you loose skills. No matter how you were set up or what you were using. People "flagged" lost even more, think pirates ad those with negative sec status. It was actually possible to kill someone so many time it is actually just better for them to start over.
I find this loss if skill only on T3 ships to be rather too kind and easy for everyone else. I would rather see this pushed out to every time you die you loose skills in the ship your flying. Get ganked in a miner, loose some of those mining skills. Learn to watch Dscan, learn to tank properly, learn to fleet up and have backup, learn to watch local for known gankers and pirates. While your mission running in your 4 billion faction fit ship, learn to watch dcan for combat probes. Learn how to recognize if they are centering in on you.
Also, not sure on the 6 day thing. I have one toon training level 5 subsystem he is not specced into. He is only 4 days out not 6 days. However he does have +3 implants. That should be counted. I mean seriously if your spending a billion for ship to PVP in you can afford to spend 100 mill for implants to speed up training times.
I have only lost my Proteus once and I deserved it, I fell for a trap. I even congratulated the guys, and honestly it was the most intense fun I had in the game in a while.
However, my attitude boils down to the Guild Leaders quote from Meridian 59. "Don't die, death is unproductive" and yeah Eve is that simple too. If your planning on death people a regular occurrence in the game then I would argue your doing it wrong. Death should be the exception not the norm. However there are a vast number of victims, out there and always will be.
So anyway my vote if we were to vote on this is expand skill loss to all ship across the board. |
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
190
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 16:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
Uncle Gagarin wrote:- if you have a battle in your WH (i.e. defend it or attack other one) and loose tech3 ship then in specific case you will not be able to fly it for 6 days. Some fits require i.e. so much powergrid or cpu that subsys must be skilled to 5. This cripples gameplay of all your teammates, not only you. If you're in a situation where you may need to rapidly reship into another T3, then you should plan ahead with fits for all eventualities. If you can't be bothered to do that, then...
Uncle Gagarin wrote:- tech3 ships are overshaded now in multiple areas by lot of other ships (i.e. t2) which will do same function for much lower price and without a risk of loosing skillpoints at all or do the function better ...use one of those T2 ships that overshadow your T3 instead.
Uncle Gagarin wrote:- there should be only one situation you can loose skillpoints - you get podded without actual clone
- ship usage shouldn't be punished so hard *shrug* Those are opinions... not really compelling reasons to change anything. |
Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
101
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 16:37:00 -
[8] - Quote
Given the frequency that T3's are being fielded (it's not uncommon these days for multiple large T3 fleets to be tangling in a single engagement), it's not really acting as a huge deterrent.
Besides, it acts as a nice pressure in a war - if you have multiple fights on multiple days close together, a string of heavy losses on one side is not only pressurising their wallets, but could potentially apply pressure to their fleet comps too, forcing a ship-down or change in tactics (its unlikely I'm sure, but every person you push from a T3 into a support ship for the next fight weakens that sides comp).
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2814
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 17:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
Uncle Gagarin wrote:Why ? At least three reasons:
- this is main reason people are avoiding tech3 in PvP - there is no other ship lose causing such effect - there are lot of ship balancing/changes done vanishing eventual OP of tech3
BR, Uncle
If T3 are rebalanced from being crazy potent to something inline with T2 and Pirate cruisers, I could support this. But if they retain BS EHP, Combat BC DPS, in a cruiser package.... then they should absolutely retain SP loss. |
Tiger Armani
Mialto Corp The Last Chancers.
60
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 11:42:00 -
[10] - Quote
you can't "loose" skillpoints, just saying.
To be honest, I don't see any reason why your skills decrease when dying while flying T3. You don't lose any skillpoints even when podded (if you clone is uptodate)
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Lady Naween
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
248
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 17:30:00 -
[11] - Quote
I keep seeing this myth that it keeps people from flying T3s, and yet.. I know we do and most other alliances have entire fleets of t3s and not a single complaint about the SP loss. the 2 bill in isk each ship is worth.. sometimes but never the skill points.
I dont mind it, t3s are atm well worth it. There isn't a single t2 ship that comes close to what at least we use our t3s for. |
Arrins Uta
Red.Dot THE H0NEYBADGER
2
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 23:11:00 -
[12] - Quote
Certain T2s over shadow T3s because those T2s are role specific more or less. T3s are versatile as in one ship that can do multiple roles. That is why they suffer from SP loss. I can't wait to be able to fly a legion even with the SP loss. To complain about something so trivial on a class of ship that can do just about anything is a little sad. If you don't like the SP loss stick to T2s and just have diff ships ready for different situations. |
Old Phill
Republic University Minmatar Republic
15
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 11:19:00 -
[13] - Quote
if t3s are so bad then how come i see them everywhere they seem to be the endgame go to ship for what ever to want for being so powerful there needs to be a cost and not just isk because some rich chump irl can buy 500plex and go yay |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
12309
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 11:21:00 -
[14] - Quote
Uncle Gagarin wrote:Hi,
As Rubicon brings a lot of changes, most of them are warmly welcome by community I would like to ask question:
- Maybe it's time to remove skillpoint loose when tech3 ship is destroyed ?
What do you think ?
BR, Uncle
Yeah OK. Of course, T3s will have to be scaled way back in their capabilities to match normal T1/T2 cruisers.
srs though, fly a HAC if you don't want to risk your skillpoints. |
Infiltrator2112
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
28
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 14:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
Uncle Gagarin wrote:Why ? At least three reasons:
- this is main reason people are avoiding tech3 in PvP - there is no other ship lose causing such effect - there are lot of ship balancing/changes done vanishing eventual OP of tech3
BR, Uncle
A few days ago we fought with 2 full T3-Fleets against 3 Tengu-Fleets, your argument is invalid. There is no other ship that hits and tanks that much out of its class. There is no other ship that has subsystems. T3 are everything but underused at thr moment and they take away the roles of other ships, they do not need a "buff".
So: nope. |
Julius Priscus
168
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 04:27:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tiger Armani wrote:you can't "loose" skillpoints, just saying.
To be honest, I don't see any reason why your skills decrease when dying while flying T3. You don't lose any skillpoints even when podded (if you clone is uptodate)
no you don't just lose skill points. nor does one get loose skill points .
HOW EVER! when you fly a t3 ship and it explodes while flying it due to aggression, you do lose a level in one random sub-system for its race.
care to try that again? |
Jack Miton
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
2400
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 05:36:00 -
[17] - Quote
I for one like my skill points nice and loose |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
2225
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 07:46:00 -
[18] - Quote
I'm currently mapped PER>WIL yet I still train INT>MEM subsystem 5 in 3d 6h.
I recently trained all subsystems to level 4, which is about 1 day lost if you get destroyed.
I've lost one Tengu (by being really stupid), and luckily the only subsystem skill I had at level 4 was chosen. |
DaReaper
Net 7 The Last Brigade
7
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 18:45:00 -
[19] - Quote
smart ass comment:
you are complaining about having to train a skill for 6 days if you die? Really? wait till your skills are 40+ days a 6 day skill is nothing.
Honestly every time I have died in a t3 the skill loss was insignificant. I only had to retrain one of my skills once, cause I actually lost a full level, unusually it doesn't take much to recoup |
Julius Priscus
168
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 19:11:00 -
[20] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:I'm currently mapped PER>WIL yet I still train INT>MEM subsystem 5 in 3d 6h.
don't lie... per and will remap is 3d 6 hours and some change...
the others would be like 4.5 days give or take 3 hours.. -»\_(pâä)_/-»-á Sup cracka ! |
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
539
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 19:23:00 -
[21] - Quote
I've lost at least 10 over the years. Possibly closer to 15. The SP loss gets annoying. The general idea is that a 1X modifier isn't so bad to train back up. Me personally, I'd rather have the skill be a 5X, and just keep the SP.
I had a corpmate that, well, we stopped counting losses at 26 |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
2230
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 22:15:00 -
[22] - Quote
Julius Priscus wrote:Tau Cabalander wrote:I'm currently mapped PER>WIL yet I still train INT>MEM subsystem 5 in 3d 6h. don't lie... per and will remap is 3d 6 hours and some change... the others would be like 4.5 days give or take 3 hours.. Not lying, but I did make a mistake.
I added Gallente Electronic Subsystem 5 to the end of my EVEmon skill plan, which I didn't realize had a remapping point in it. /facepalm
The correct time is 4d 10h 26m 12s. So about 1 day more with the wrong attributes. |
Julius Priscus
168
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 01:48:00 -
[23] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Julius Priscus wrote:Tau Cabalander wrote:I'm currently mapped PER>WIL yet I still train INT>MEM subsystem 5 in 3d 6h. don't lie... per and will remap is 3d 6 hours and some change... the others would be like 4.5 days give or take 3 hours.. Not lying, but I did make a mistake. I added Gallente Electronic Subsystem 5 to the end of my EVEmon skill plan, which I didn't realize had a remapping point in it. /facepalm The correct time is 4d 10h 26m 12s. So about 1 day more with the wrong attributes.
thanks for the update.. sorry for the slurr.. thought you may have been some moron troll trying to rub salt into wounds :P
still 4d10h+ aint that much tbh. -»\_(pâä)_/-»-á Sup cracka ! |
Kelby
43
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 13:54:00 -
[24] - Quote
Although I'm trained for them I don't fly T3 and the SP loss is a small part of the reason for that.
The only time SP should be lost is when you are podded without an up to date clone, loosing SP just because of a ship loss goes against what the EVE skill system is all about (at least for me). |
Jack Miton
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
2402
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 21:19:00 -
[25] - Quote
I expect the skill penalty will go after they ruin (i mean balance) T3s. I can see how they'd justify keeping it if they make them worse than T2s like they say they will.
As the ships are now? the penalty is fine. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ |
Sir Spottington
Merchants Trade Consortium The Last Chancers.
52
|
Posted - 2013.11.13 23:52:00 -
[26] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:I expect the skill penalty will go after they ruin (i mean balance) T3s. I can see how they'd justify keeping it if they make them worse than T2s like they say they will.
As the ships are now? the penalty is fine.
totally agree, for the performance from a cruiser hull that we get now the sp loss is, imo, fine but a bit annoying because its my sp lol.
if they get nerfed i hope it gets removed, obviously depending on how severe the nerf is. |
Janna Sway
GeoCorp. Curatores Veritatis Alliance
59
|
Posted - 2013.11.16 01:01:00 -
[27] - Quote
Someone having an alt, entirely specialized to fly a T3, then the skillpoint loss might not matter so much. |
DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
199
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 03:30:00 -
[28] - Quote
Lord Xyon wrote:Having played games in the past like Meridian 59 for example where anytime you die, PVP and PVE you loose skills. No matter how you were set up or what you were using. People "flagged" lost even more, think pirates ad those with negative sec status. It was actually possible to kill someone so many time it is actually just better for them to start over.
I find this loss if skill only on T3 ships to be rather too kind and easy for everyone else. I would rather see this pushed out to every time you die you loose skills in the ship your flying. Get ganked in a miner, loose some of those mining skills. Learn to watch Dscan, learn to tank properly, learn to fleet up and have backup, learn to watch local for known gankers and pirates. While your mission running in your 4 billion faction fit ship, learn to watch dcan for combat probes. Learn how to recognize if they are centering in on you.
Also, not sure on the 6 day thing. I have one toon training level 5 subsystem he is not specced into. He is only 4 days out not 6 days. However he does have +3 implants. That should be counted. I mean seriously if your spending a billion for ship to PVP in you can afford to spend 100 mill for implants to speed up training times.
I have only lost my Proteus once and I deserved it, I fell for a trap. I even congratulated the guys, and honestly it was the most intense fun I had in the game in a while.
However, my attitude boils down to the Guild Leaders quote from Meridian 59. "Don't die, death is unproductive" and yeah Eve is that simple too. If your planning on death people a regular occurrence in the game then I would argue your doing it wrong. Death should be the exception not the norm. However there are a vast number of victims, out there and always will be.
So anyway my vote if we were to vote on this is expand skill loss to all ship across the board.
What a great idea. Lets watch places like RvB and E-Uni just die off because players can no longer even have frig fights without having SP losses. Since an "always SP loss system" was never introduced at day one, it can't be ever introduced into EVE now. Period.
I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |
Janna Sway
GeoCorp. Curatores Veritatis Alliance
78
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 23:13:00 -
[29] - Quote
Julius Priscus wrote:Tau Cabalander wrote:I'm currently mapped PER>WIL yet I still train INT>MEM subsystem 5 in 3d 6h.
don't lie... per and will remap is 3d 6 hours and some change... the others would be like 4.5 days give or take 3 hours..
As far as I can remember, 3 racial subsystem skills are with INT/MEM, and the other 2 racial subsystem skills (Navigation and Offensive) are PERC/WILL.
3d 6h you get with +4 implants and most efficient remap in one of the two attribute duo-groups... |
Kirkwood Ross
Golden Profession
62
|
Posted - 2013.11.22 02:49:00 -
[30] - Quote
T3s are super powerful so the sp loss kinda balances it and Is needed. |
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