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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Asayanami Dei
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
82
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 13:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
You made a lot of people very happy when we saw the corp bookmarks released on SISI. We understand that it is a very early development version, but still, a couple of things that come to mind:
SCREENSHOT
- There should be a new grantable role for the corp bookmarks manegment. It would make it easier for the directors to be able to handle a new role, rather then juggle arround an existing role to make it work.
- It would be cool if you can set access rights for different BMs folders.
- The corp bookmark folder should be visible in the right-click menu in space, just like any other folder
- supposedly it takes like 5-10(?) min to update, which is perfect, please do not change that (i guess it's a server thing anyways). Some people might rage about it, but instant-corp-wide-bookmarks is not ideal, some time-buffer is required for it not to be overpowered in my opinion.
- If at all possible, subfolders in the corp-bookmarks folder would be an awesome addition.
- Another idea would be to create a second tab under the Places tab (sub-tab) rather then a special folder, so you would have a Personal tab and a Corp tab under the places tab. I don't know how would that impact the ability of copying bookmarks there, since its impossible to drag&drop with that kind of setup. Perhaps a right click option like "send to Corp"?
I will *try* update this list as feedback and ideas start being posted.
My youtube channel Video Thread |
Lanalor
Lapse Of Sanity Narwhals Ate My Duck
1
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Posted - 2011.11.02 14:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
Firstly +1 to corp bookmarks.
Secondly, Asayanami has hit all the major faults with the current itteration of the corp BM system.
The best ideas there being roles associated with the corp BMs and moving them to a separate tab with sub folders with multiple levels of access.
Overall, awesome to see this coming, but does need a few changes to be useful.
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Liu Ellens
Blame The Bunny The Dark Nation
7
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Posted - 2011.11.02 14:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
I just read about this, coming from General Discussion -- I haven't experienced it first hand yet.
Out of genuine interest: Why shouldn't they be transmitted instantly to all corp members? What is an example of an overpowered situation? (The only one that comes to my mind is the scout giving a bookmark of the found victim - but then again, the others could do a warp to that scout as fleet member anyway...?)
edit: ok thinking through that situation, that scout would pass on a bookmark of the target and not himself, who is 30+km off for safety. Ok, I can see that hot-drop-o-clock scenario. But stil... bad?
I'm ok with the other suggestions so far though. I'm a little freighter - short and stout; This is my cargo, this is my route. When I get a lock-on, I scream and shout: "Light up a cyno!" and jump on out. |
Cipreh
Clann Fian Narwhals Ate My Duck
3
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Posted - 2011.11.02 14:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
+1 (Hell yeah, corp bookmarks) |
Asayanami Dei
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
86
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Posted - 2011.11.02 14:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
Liu Ellens wrote:I just read about this, coming from General Discussion -- I haven't experienced it first hand yet.
Out of genuine interest: Why shouldn't they be transmitted instantly to all corp members? What is an example of an overpowered situation? (The only one that comes to my mind is the scout giving a bookmark of the found victim - but then again, the others could do a warp to that scout as fleet member anyway...?)
I'm ok with the other suggestions so far though.
"If a scout can move six systems down the cluster by himself, finds a PVEing fleet and bookmarks a wreck that is 120 KM away inside a cloud of decloaking objects, then turn all those BMs into corp BMs - then the scout doesn't even need to leave grid in order to provide a squad warp to the wreck, no need to exchange BMs."
Which basically means you get instant-warpable points on grid for everyone in fleet and not even on grid. It is a bit overpowered IMHO.
My youtube channel Video Thread |
jonnykefka
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
5
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Posted - 2011.11.02 14:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
I disagree with my esteemed corpmate about the update time, but non-instantaneous updating does seem reasonable if only for technical reasons. Maybe 2 minutes rather than 5-10? 5 minutes is a maximum, I would say.
However, with that periodic updating, could we get a timestamp as to when the folder last updated? This is less important if it ends up being only a 2 minute delay, but if it's a longer delay it would be really nice to know how out-of-date the folder is.
I'm also not a fan of the extra tab idea. Keeping it as a folder in the same window will make copying back and forth much easier.
I'm sure I'll have more feedback when I get to play around with it myself. However, that it is on Sisi at all is wonderful. I'm really looking forward to seeing this in the winter expansion. |
Liu Ellens
Blame The Bunny The Dark Nation
7
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Posted - 2011.11.02 14:36:00 -
[7] - Quote
Thanks for the example - in parallel I did an edit of my previous post that had me thinking further. I see the reasoning but so far don't see strong indications for needing them non-instant, I'd still expect them to be instant.
Perhaps it's about separating cases - are you referring to BM inside missions? Those I didn't think of and I could understand a delay - I guess only salvagers would use/need them; I thought more of the PVP, WH, Strategic applications, which should be instant I'd guess. I'm a little freighter - short and stout; This is my cargo, this is my route. When I get a lock-on, I scream and shout: "Light up a cyno!" and jump on out. |
Lanalor
Lapse Of Sanity Narwhals Ate My Duck
1
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Posted - 2011.11.02 14:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
If it dosent get a separate tab for whatever reason, then it at least needs sub folders, which as far as I am aware, you cant do with the current folder system. |
Asayanami Dei
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
87
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 14:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
There are cases where instant bookmark sharing would be desirable and there are cases where it seems overpowered.
Like I said, in my personal opinion there should be a small delay.
W-Space scenario:
Scout jumps in to a newly scanned wormhole, finds a fleet inside running an Anomaly, warps there, bookmarks a wreck closest to the hostiles.
He has now a couple of options: - He can fly closer to the hostiles, providing a warp in with his own ship - he can fly back to the system he came from and share the bookmark with his fleet - he can fleet-warp the fleet to the bookmark
all of the above require fast thinking, tactics, make it interesting.
Now with instant bookmark sharing all he needs to do is bookmark a wreck, share it, and wait for his fleet to come and kill everything on grid. No tactics, no decision making involved. An easy WIN button.
With a small delay it is a bit different, because you may decide to do one of the previously stated 'tactics' to get your fleet on grid FASTER then the delay time is. So it still gives you a choice of what to do in a certain situation.
My youtube channel Video Thread |
Asayanami Dei
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
87
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 14:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
double post...
My youtube channel Video Thread |
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Tashanaka
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
6
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Posted - 2011.11.02 14:54:00 -
[11] - Quote
jonnykefka wrote:I disagree with my esteemed corpmate about the update time, but non-instantaneous updating does seem reasonable if only for technical reasons. Maybe 2 minutes rather than 5-10? 5 minutes is a maximum, I would say...
I'm sure it is a server issue but there is also game balance issue too. 5-minutes seems like a nice sweet spot between too OP and waiting forever.
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Meltmind2
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
3
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Posted - 2011.11.02 15:18:00 -
[12] - Quote
A 5 minute delay would be fine, it's enough to give everyone a route to the target system, but not enough to give an actual warpin on the targets, thus preventing it from being OP. |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
387
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 15:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
I think the plan is to make a new role, though CCP does have a limited number of roles (they are implemented with a bit mask, and I think on a 32-bit number, though maybe they moved to a 64-bit number now). I suggested re-using communications manager if they were low on role bits.
I think they are supposed to show up when right clicking in space, if that isn't working yet it is probably because they aren't done yet.
I am also working on getting the names of the CCP devs responsible, so they can be rewarded properly at FF... :) CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog What does CSM 6 do? |
Asayanami Dei
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
89
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 16:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
Two step wrote:I think the plan is to make a new role, though CCP does have a limited number of roles (they are implemented with a bit mask, and I think on a 32-bit number, though maybe they moved to a 64-bit number now). I suggested re-using communications manager if they were low on role bits.
I think they are supposed to show up when right clicking in space, if that isn't working yet it is probably because they aren't done yet.
I am also working on getting the names of the CCP devs responsible, so they can be rewarded properly at FF... :)
The devs responsible should swim in beer at fanfest. <3
My youtube channel Video Thread |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
388
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 17:08:00 -
[15] - Quote
Asayanami Dei wrote:The devs responsible should swim in beer at fanfest. <3
Word on the street is that it is mostly CCP Tuxford to thank. Don't give him too much beer, or he will trip over the cord to TQ again though! CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog What does CSM 6 do? |
Nash MacAllister
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 17:34:00 -
[16] - Quote
This would be great to see... |
Geldorf Drakar
Aperture Harmonics K162
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 18:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
It's time the folks in wormholes got a bit more lovin... +1 all the way. While the rest of EVE will benefit quite a bit, those of us who live in wormholes will feel the greatest positive impact.
Not that I wouldn't absolutely love to be able to use corp bookmarks to get warpins for PvP, but to be fair even a 5 min delay could be too short of a time delay. I'd actually have to say 10-15min would be ideal from the standpoint of preventing corp bookmarks from becoming overpowered.
Alternatively..... a 2-5 min delay, and make it so that corp bookmarks can only be added to when uncloaked. Such would prevent cloaky scouts from providing the rest of the fleet a warpin. I suppose it depends on how the mechanics will work... BM straight to corp BM's... BM to personal and then move to corp... etc. |
Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris Etherium Cartel
132
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 18:16:00 -
[18] - Quote
I guess despite the issues raised here, I don't see why I can't instantly send X,Y,Z Coords to ANYONE I want. I realize that for historical reasons this might be strange in eve, but really if a scout and nail everything down and send bms then GREAT Imagine playing Donkey Kong where every barrel looks like it hits you. Would you rather I fix the barrels or Kong's shadow?
Welcome to Eve Online where lasers are dumber than barrels! |
Asayanami Dei
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
92
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 18:23:00 -
[19] - Quote
Apollo Gabriel wrote:I guess despite the issues raised here, I don't see why I can't instantly send X,Y,Z Coords to ANYONE I want. I realize that for historical reasons this might be strange in eve, but really if a scout and nail everything down and send bms then GREAT
While it makes perfect sense on paper (since this is the future and what not), I think it's simply too big of an advantage.
I think that what Geldorf Drakar said makes perfect sense
Quote:make it so that corp bookmarks can only be added to when uncloaked. Such would prevent cloaky scouts from providing the rest of the fleet a warpin. I suppose it depends on how the mechanics will work... BM straight to corp BM's... BM to personal and then move to corp... etc.
It pretty much solves the problem from my point of view, you can either risk being seen and share the bookmarks, or utilize one of the tactics mentioned already, either way, it gives you a choice, I like it and im adding it to the first post.
My youtube channel Video Thread |
Lenid Kalkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 18:30:00 -
[20] - Quote
I'll go ahead and second Asayanami Dei's comments on instantaneous shared bookmarks being OP for nullsec as well. A 5-15m delay seems very reasonable. |
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Nalda Selene
The Red Circle Inc.
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 18:43:00 -
[21] - Quote
Asayanami Dei wrote:I think that what Geldorf Drakar said makes perfect sense Quote:make it so that corp bookmarks can only be added to when uncloaked. Such would prevent cloaky scouts from providing the rest of the fleet a warpin. I suppose it depends on how the mechanics will work... BM straight to corp BM's... BM to personal and then move to corp... etc. It pretty much solves the problem from my point of view, you can either risk being seen and share the bookmarks, or utilize one of the tactics mentioned already, either way, it gives you a choice, I like it and im adding it to the first post.
It also makes sense in a "realism" sense. If you're operating cloaked, which implies you're trying to hide/not be seen, would you actually transmit something, which would give away your presence, if not your actual location? |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
34
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 18:46:00 -
[22] - Quote
Two step wrote:Asayanami Dei wrote:The devs responsible should swim in beer at fanfest. <3 Word on the street is that it is mostly CCP Tuxford to thank. Don't give him too much beer, or he will trip over the cord to TQ again though! Tuxford is just full of win, isn't he?
Yeah, with some of the "professional scouts" I know of in game, "instant" anything is OP!
(srsly - some scouts are just scary good!)
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |
Candente
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
14
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 18:52:00 -
[23] - Quote
Good news.
I think a two-fold system would be even more ideal: faster update of corporate bookmarks when the ship is uncloaked, while slow update to corp bookmarks when the ship is cloaked. Not only it will balance pvp, but also makes it easier to share bookmarks for non-pvp situations easily. |
crondarin
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 18:55:00 -
[24] - Quote
A few Points i have seen about Corp BM's
I Love them :) :) (to the point my bank manager is going to have words with me after Fanfest after the amount of beer i'm going to be buying the devs) There Should be a delay (see above posters as to reasons why,"no easy gank method") atm there not there when you right click in space (have to do it through people and places tab), CCP have stated they should be but may not be implemented yet. You should be able to have sub folders in the corp BM (perhaps with corp roles having access to different ones) make it when you creat a Bookmark have a check box to make for corp or personal use, but keep the option to copy them as well between both.
thats all i can think off atm i'll keep playing with them on sisi once i sort out my graphics problem on sisi (bug report raised for this) |
Nonnori Ikkala
Love for You Forsaken.Empire
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 19:01:00 -
[25] - Quote
As one of the TAC-makers of my corp, I approve! None of this namby-pamby of not having TACs off gates anymore for them.
I like many of the suggestions above, and look forward to the results of further CCP iteration on the feature. |
Asayanami Dei
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
97
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 21:56:00 -
[26] - Quote
Candente wrote:Good news.
I think a two-fold system would be even more ideal: faster update of corporate bookmarks when the ship is uncloaked, while slow update to corp bookmarks when the ship is cloaked. Not only it will balance pvp, but also makes it easier to share bookmarks for non-pvp situations easily. I think that would be pushing it and it sounds hard to make, it's a good idea tho, but the 'no bookmark sharing while cloaked' idea is simple and works :)
My youtube channel Video Thread |
Abbadon Karis
Aperture Harmonics K162
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 22:00:00 -
[27] - Quote
+1 !
Less time delay means faster pvp and in some cases maybe more pvp, that's not a bad option in my opinion. 2-5 min seems ok but 10 min might be to long to get the action even started. On the other hand it also might take a fleet 10min to form up before ready as well so my opinion is a bit split between yes and no on the 10min time delay.
I can see the aspect of doing pve will get harder with little time delay, but pvp will get better, depends on which side your on. |
Matuk Grymwal
Firebird Squadron Terra-Incognita
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 23:42:00 -
[28] - Quote
+1 Fantastic to finally see this.
A delay seems reasonable to me for all the reasons discussed. Totally agree on the role as well. I don't like the idea of variable delays depending on cloakiness though. I'm more open to the idea of not being able to create corp bookmarks at all while cloaked however. |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce Masters of Flying Objects
47
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 03:09:00 -
[29] - Quote
While we are working on BM code. BM need to have a time current feature so some BM auto delete. Corp BM will get very full very fast unless there is a easy way to delete them.
I suggest some selection buttons be added to the bm naming popup. If you have the role there should be a corp bm check and 2 time checks, 24 hours, 72 hours. If a time is not selected. it will not auto delete. This will help keep the bm data base cleaner and will help out everyone. |
ShadowandLight
Cryptonym Sleepers Moon Warriors
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 04:12:00 -
[30] - Quote
Yo.. CCP.
Thank you, this is a huge addition to the game! |
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Efraya
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Narwhals Ate My Duck
28
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 09:23:00 -
[31] - Quote
FINALLY!!!!!
Alliance BM's too?
WSpace; Best space. |
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CCP Tuxford
C C P C C P Alliance
27
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 09:26:00 -
[32] - Quote
Note that the version you have on SiSi is very raw. We've been working on it two programmers so we need to check things in so the other guy can work making us ship a pretty raw version of this. I'm currently working on a blog about this feature which should clear some things up.
Asayanami Dei wrote:
There should be a new grantable role for the corp bookmarks manegment. It would make it easier for the directors to be able to handle a new role, rather then juggle arround an existing role to make it work. It would be cool if you can set access rights for different BMs folders. We decided on a very simple role restriction. Creating new corp roles is very difficult because of the way they are implemented. One day we're going to have to take a step back and do something about that but not today I guess
OR make it so that corp bookmarks can only be added to when uncloaked. Such would prevent cloaky scouts from providing the rest of the fleet a warpin. I suppose it depends on how the mechanics will work... BM straight to corp BM's... BM to personal and then move to corp... etc. [/quote] I think I know what you're getting at. So basically a cloaked ship can create a bookmark near a fleet and the rest warp in there. I don't think it's that big of an issue as people can already warp to the cloaked ship anyway. Of course there could be something that I'm missing. The restriction is for server performance so having it instant isn't really up for debate anyway
Asayanami Dei wrote:
with that periodic updating, could we get a timestamp as to when the folder last updated? This is less important if it ends up being only a 2 minute delay, but if it's a longer delay it would be really nice to know how out-of-date the folder is. Sounds cool. It shouldn't be too out of date though. Its currently 5 minutes
Asayanami Dei wrote:
If at all possible, subfolders in the corp-bookmarks folder would be an awesome addition. If you mean Corp Places -> My Folder -> My Bookmark then yes it's already coming If you mean Corp Places -> My Folder -> My Subfolder -> My Bookmark then no. At least not this iteration
Asayanami Dei wrote:
Another idea would be to create a second tab under the Places tab (sub-tab) rather then a special folder, so you would have a Personal tab and a Corp tab under the places tab. I don't know how would that impact the ability of copying bookmarks there, since its impossible to drag&drop with that kind of setup. Perhaps a right click option like "send to Corp"? It would make copying bookmarks very awkward. Once the new folder structure hits SiSi I hope you find this a lot more clear.
https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/CCP%20Tuxford/StatusUpdates |
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CCP Tuxford
C C P C C P Alliance
27
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 09:26:00 -
[33] - Quote
Asayanami Dei wrote:
The corp bookmark folder should be visible in the right-click menu in space, just like any other folder they should show up there or at least they do for me. https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/CCP%20Tuxford/StatusUpdates |
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Efraya
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Narwhals Ate My Duck
28
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 09:39:00 -
[34] - Quote
CCP Tuxford best CCP.
WSpace; Best space. |
Circumstantial Evidence
15
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 09:50:00 -
[35] - Quote
Endorsing iteration on this product and / or service. Thank you! |
Potato IQ
Hedion University Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 10:27:00 -
[36] - Quote
This delay method doesnGÇÖt make sense. Unclear how your getting a transmission corp wide when your cut-off from k-space. It is making things too easy and BMGÇÖs should be pulled into this and not pushed, much as I regret saying as the feature is very cool and very powerful
The corp BMGÇÖs should be instant, but can only be made available in same or any other system travelled to beyond the originator BM time. Any corp member that travels through a BMGÇÖd system can pick it up and pass it along. Means you still need the scout/BM transfer pilot out and back element which is more realistic
If the delay method kept, then fast location intel means you still deal with BM swapping to an extent. Instant pull system would improve this
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Geldorf Drakar
Aperture Harmonics K162
5
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Posted - 2011.11.03 12:33:00 -
[37] - Quote
Quote:I think I know what you're getting at. So basically a cloaked ship can create a bookmark near a fleet and the rest warp in there. I don't think it's that big of an issue as people can already warp to the cloaked ship anyway. Of course there could be something that I'm missing. The restriction is for server performance so having it instant isn't really up for debate anyway
The problem is that a cloaky scout could land say... 120km off a bunch of ships after having scanned down the site they are in, the cloaky scout can bookmark an object, like a jet can, wreck, or LCO, without having slowboat the 120km, then when the bookmarks propagate to the rest of the corp, they have an instant warpin without the scout having to have spent 10-20 min chasing the target ships around, getting into range, having to avoid things that could uncloak him, etc.
120km @ 500ms = 4 min 120km @ 250ms = 8 min
Depending on your ship, if the corp bookmark propagation delay is too low, it becomes easier to bookmark something close to your target than it is to actually have to fly all that way, and risk having to chase a target around as it moves.
That is why having a restriction on being unable to add to corp bookmarks while cloaked, or force a 10-20 min delay for corp bookmark propagation is necessary. |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
391
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 12:38:00 -
[38] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:I think I know what you're getting at. So basically a cloaked ship can create a bookmark near a fleet and the rest warp in there. I don't think it's that big of an issue as people can already warp to the cloaked ship anyway. Of course there could be something that I'm missing. The restriction is for server performance so having it instant isn't really up for debate anyway
The issue is that if people are killing rats, a cloaked ship could make a corp bookmark to a wreck near the players, then a fleet could warp in on top of them. CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog What does CSM 6 do? |
Nalda Selene
The Red Circle Inc.
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 14:34:00 -
[39] - Quote
Two step wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:I think I know what you're getting at. So basically a cloaked ship can create a bookmark near a fleet and the rest warp in there. I don't think it's that big of an issue as people can already warp to the cloaked ship anyway. Of course there could be something that I'm missing. The restriction is for server performance so having it instant isn't really up for debate anyway The issue is that if people are killing rats, a cloaked ship could make a corp bookmark to a wreck near the players, then a fleet could warp in on top of them.
.. without the chance of getting decloaked by something and giving the game away, I would add. |
Asayanami Dei
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
104
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 16:01:00 -
[40] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote: I'm currently working on a blog about this feature which should clear some things up.
Yes, please! Also, thank you very much for getting this done, it was the number one request from many w-space coporation for years now. If there's anything we (the players) can do to speed up the development process, please let us know :) Much love Tux! <3
My youtube channel Video Thread |
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Faeyen
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
9
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Posted - 2011.11.03 16:16:00 -
[41] - Quote
Two step wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:I think I know what you're getting at. So basically a cloaked ship can create a bookmark near a fleet and the rest warp in there. I don't think it's that big of an issue as people can already warp to the cloaked ship anyway. Of course there could be something that I'm missing. The restriction is for server performance so having it instant isn't really up for debate anyway The issue is that if people are killing rats, a cloaked ship could make a corp bookmark to a wreck near the players, then a fleet could warp in on top of them.
Or you could just book mark a wreck, warp back to the k162, have the fleet jump and then sling shot them into combat. |
Raid'En
Apprentice Innovations
86
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 16:28:00 -
[42] - Quote
you could even have fleets members at different positions with only one scout who BMed all the good place. BM the entrance (if they flee here), BM the pos (put a bubble before it), BM other entrance (camp here also), Bm different spot of warp in on the grid (so you gave more security while trying to catch him/them)... all that with the same cloaked scout, at the same time, while the fleet will never be visible before it's too late. |
Potato IQ
Hedion University Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 16:28:00 -
[43] - Quote
Geldorf Drakar wrote:That is why having a restriction on being unable to add to corp bookmarks while cloaked, or force a 10-20 min delay for corp bookmark propagation is necessary.
Go to outer planet off D-scan or jump into a neighboring system that is quite and de-cloak. Easy to get around time penalty. Could even use a cheap sacrificial cov-ops if it meant a valuable kill for fleet
IsnGÇÖt the idea to do away with this stupid need to swap/copy/paste BMGÇÖs but without making the intel gathered too easy to obtain for all? Have the time delay of 15 minutes for the likes of general corp BMGÇÖs like exits/entrances and such. For fast intel, read-only fleet folder BMGÇÖs for those quick ops
Bah. Any process that allows remote BMGÇÖs to be made available is over-powered, but any scenario would suggest there is not an easy work-around to this much needed feature
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jonnykefka
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 16:38:00 -
[44] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:Asayanami Dei wrote:
If at all possible, subfolders in the corp-bookmarks folder would be an awesome addition. If you mean Corp Places -> My Folder -> My Bookmark then yes it's already coming If you mean Corp Places -> My Folder -> My Subfolder -> My Bookmark then no. At least not this iteration
What about Corp Places > Corp subfolder > Corp BM? Not defined by each person, but by the people with the appropriate roles, and in the corp BM folder?
Other thought: If the 5-minute delay is non-negotiable for technical reasons, then there is no reason to prohibit cloakies from copying BMs to the corp folder while cloaked. I was actually looking forward to being able to share BMs while cloaked as one of the big upgrades over copying the silly things to my cargohold. Requiring us to spend the extra 5-10 seconds decloaked at a safe-spot or midwarp to drag them from our BMs to the corp folder when there's a five-minute delay before the rest of the corp will get it anyways seems pointless.
Also, are BM folders going to become server-side by any chance? I realize I'm asking for whipped cream on an already awesome slice of cake, but if it's something you are planning to include (or if it's not on this round), we'd love to hear about it. |
Geldorf Drakar
Aperture Harmonics K162
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 16:46:00 -
[45] - Quote
Potato IQ wrote:Geldorf Drakar wrote:That is why having a restriction on being unable to add to corp bookmarks while cloaked, or force a 10-20 min delay for corp bookmark propagation is necessary. Go to outer planet off D-scan or jump into a neighboring system that is quite and de-cloak. Easy to get around time penalty. Could even use a cheap sacrificial cov-ops if it meant a valuable kill for fleet IsnGÇÖt the idea to do away with this stupid need to swap/copy/paste BMGÇÖs but without making the intel gathered too easy to obtain for all? Have the time delay of 15 minutes for the likes of general corp BMGÇÖs like exits/entrances and such. For fast intel, read-only fleet folder BMGÇÖs for those quick ops Bah. Any process that allows remote BMGÇÖs to be made available is over-powered, but any scenario would suggest there is not an easy work-around to this much needed feature
You don't live in a wormhole, do you?
When you say it's easy to get around the time penalty, you're not considering quiet a few things...
A) In wormholes, if somebody has a probe out looking for new sigs as they appear... they are going to pick up your ship's sig on scan as soon as you decloak at that planet off D-scan, and they are going to run.
B) Going to another system to move bookmarks would probably take several minutes anyways.
C) The point is to prevent scouts from exploiting any weakness in the corp bookmark mechanics to allow them to do something they otherwise couldnt, like broadcasting a location as a bookmark to provide a fleet warpin without ever having had to move their ship. If they warp out and decloak somewhere else to move bookmarks to corp, they might as well have just warped back to the bookmark and provided a warpin, without having to decloak.
Yea, you can get around the time delay by decloaking somewhere else, and you can get around it by warping off and then warping back to the bookmark you made without decloaking. That's not the issue. The issue is keeping somebody from creating a corp bookmark without having to put some effort and risk into their action. Preventing them from adding to corp bookmarks while cloaked forces them to decloak somewhere, or warp off and back in, risking getting caught by probes or D-Scan, or losing sight of the target and having the target warp off while they are absent, respectively, thus risking something in the endevour.
A large delay and/or a cloak status based limitation prevents people from using corp bookmarks like on demand insta-warpins to remote targets.
Somebody else also mentioned, if there weren't such a restriction, a scout could bookmark several locations in space, without moving at all, thereby providing his fleet a warpin to just about anywhere he chooses. IE if there are two target groups of ships, each with a wreck nearby, but otherwise separated by 500km, the scout could provide a risk-less warpin to both groups, without decloaking, and without having to move and lose eyes. |
Arskaff
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 18:01:00 -
[46] - Quote
Regarding the Director role:
I understand that it is technically a nightmare to add a new role (I can only assume its because they're implemented as flags).
I would recommend seeking a different role for this ability, since current implementation would not allow the vast majority of benefits - as seen in the eyes of a WH dweller - to take place, which would be a waste of an amazing and long expected feature.
My humble suggestion is to consider the "Communications Officer" role instead. |
Tashanaka
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 20:03:00 -
[47] - Quote
Arskaff wrote: ... My humble suggestion is to consider the "Communications Officer" role instead.
Good idea, Director role is too important for corp BMs.
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Circumstantial Evidence
15
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 20:19:00 -
[48] - Quote
+1 to BM folders SERVER SIDE (and market quickbar entries) +1 to "Communications Officer" role
More complicated question: I would like an option - to see BM's *in space* when i'm on grid with them. Bonus points for translucent green sphere, sized to indicate the warp-in landing variation.
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Faeyen
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
9
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 22:01:00 -
[49] - Quote
Be careful for what you wish for. Remember how we got server side fittings but we are only allowed to have 50 saved? |
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CCP Tuxford
C C P C C P Alliance
33
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 22:14:00 -
[50] - Quote
jonnykefka wrote: What about Corp Places > Corp subfolder > Corp BM? Not defined by each person, but by the people with the appropriate roles, and in the corp BM folder?
Yes this is what I meant. Basically what I'm trying to say is that we can have one level of folders for both personal and corporation bookmarks.
jonnykefka wrote: Other thought: If the 5-minute delay is non-negotiable for technical reasons, then there is no reason to prohibit cloakies from copying BMs to the corp folder while cloaked. I was actually looking forward to being able to share BMs while cloaked as one of the big upgrades over copying the silly things to my cargohold. Requiring us to spend the extra 5-10 seconds decloaked at a safe-spot or midwarp to drag them from our BMs to the corp folder when there's a five-minute delay before the rest of the corp will get it anyways seems pointless.
I mentioned this whole issue of boosting scouts to a game designer and he wasn't really that stressed since we had the caching for 5 minutes (although he didn't want to commit to not being stressed about it later ). Yes making a 120km journey on going 250m/s takes 8 minutes but then again making a bookmark warping out and back in to the bookmark is way faster anyway. However the caching is 5 minutes so on average you will actually get the bookmarks 2.5 minutes later. Having this restricted by your cloaked state is very hard because, and excuse me for getting technical, the node we ask to copy the bookmarks is not the same as the one that the solar system is located on. However if needed then forcing a delay on the bookmarks to show up for other users is not that hard to do if we deem that necessary.
jonnykefka wrote: Also, are BM folders going to become server-side by any chance? I realize I'm asking for whipped cream on an already awesome slice of cake, but if it's something you are planning to include (or if it's not on this round), we'd love to hear about it.
Having folders for corporations client side doesn't really make sense since I've heard that there are actually more than one character per corp (crazy right?). Since we're already creating a folder structure for corporation bookmarks to be stored on the DB it didn't make a lot of sense to not move your personal bookmark folders to the server as well.
A lot of people have been involved in this feature. Awesome as I may be then the real thanks should go to the guy that made this a priority. I'm really just the tool.
Note to self: Stop referring to self as a tool.
https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/CCP%20Tuxford/StatusUpdates |
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Tashanaka
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 22:26:00 -
[51] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote: ... Since we're already creating a folder structure for corporation bookmarks to be stored on the DB it didn't make a lot of sense to not move your personal bookmark folders to the server as well.
A lot of people have been involved in this feature. Awesome as I may be then the real thanks should go to the guy that made this a priority. I'm really just the tool.
Ah Tux, you just made me so happy!
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Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
76
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 00:30:00 -
[52] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:Having folders for corporations client side doesn't really make sense since I've heard that there are actually more than one character per corp (crazy right?). Since we're already creating a folder structure for corporation bookmarks to be stored on the DB it didn't make a lot of sense to not move your personal bookmark folders to the server as well. This sounds great, but how will the transition go? Will all our client-side folders dissapear on patch day, or be transferred?
|
Faeyen
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
9
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 01:57:00 -
[53] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:Having folders for corporations client side doesn't really make sense since I've heard that there are actually more than one character per corp (crazy right?). Since we're already creating a folder structure for corporation bookmarks to be stored on the DB it didn't make a lot of sense to not move your personal bookmark folders to the server as well. This sounds great, but how will the transition go? Will all our client-side folders dissapear on patch day, or be transferred?
This is not such a big deal for myself as I have a fairly simple folder system, but others rely on their bookmark folders quite heavily. I would at least say that the folders are important to them and redoing them would be a chore. |
Honsou Blackblade
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 01:59:00 -
[54] - Quote
This is seriously awesome for wormhole corps. No more forgetting to update the bookmark can, or forgetting to put them back.
The ability to ADD bookmarks could be a GLOBAL role, but only a higher level of access could move/remove them. This would help prevent in corp spies who delete bookmarks that you need, as well as give enough access that any corp member can add the bookmark they need. Besides, you all date your bookmarks.... right? Right....? |
Faeyen
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
9
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 02:06:00 -
[55] - Quote
Honsou Blackblade wrote:This is seriously awesome for wormhole corps. No more forgetting to update the bookmark can, or forgetting to put them back.
The ability to ADD bookmarks could be a GLOBAL role, but only a higher level of access could move/remove them. This would help prevent in corp spies who delete bookmarks that you need, as well as give enough access that any corp member can add the bookmark they need. Besides, you all date your bookmarks.... right? Right....?
Well we only date the h-t bookmarks (home-static) and the sites that spawn at home. |
Sassums
Wormhole Exploration Crew Transmission Lost
17
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 03:27:00 -
[56] - Quote
Would it be hard to implement an Alliance Wide BM system?
Many of us in WH space, share the same system with the alliance, it would make it a lot easier to run ops with alliance wide BM's |
Yvan Ratamnim
Phoenix Evolved Part Duo
35
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 04:00:00 -
[57] - Quote
CCP Tuxford and the other devs involved ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You just made dealing with JB networks so much better than having to copy bmarks constantly....
Also what sassums said, nullsec wud like the alliance bookmarks as well... i mean its not a huge deal, alliance now will just give each corp the needed bookmarks for them to use as corp bookmarks, but alliance bookmarks would rock. |
Yvan Ratamnim
Phoenix Evolved Part Duo
35
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 04:01:00 -
[58] - Quote
Any chance of getting bookmarks in overview/space possible? i know it was on the todo list but while were talking about bookmarks i figure i'd ask as it would be so helpful |
Circumstantial Evidence
16
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 06:53:00 -
[59] - Quote
Sassums wrote:Would it be hard to implement an Alliance Wide BM system?Many of us in WH space, share the same system with the alliance, it would make it a lot easier to run ops with alliance wide BM's Oh yes, would be nice to set a SCOPE for each BM: personal, corp, alliance. The alliance executor corp could act as the repository for BM's saved and "scoped" to alliance by the player. If a corp that did not save and set "scope" for a BM left alliance, that corp would no longer have access to the executor corp BM repository. |
Floydd Heywood
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 08:46:00 -
[60] - Quote
Two step wrote:The issue is that if people are killing rats, a cloaked ship could make a corp bookmark to a wreck near the players, then a fleet could warp in on top of them.
I'd actually like that. It's a big change, yes, but not a bad one imho. Why shouldn't a scout be able to transmit something like: "I am in system J123456 and the target is at coordinates 265,452,685. Get him!" (And instant transmissions are obviously possible, since we can chat with anyone in the universe no matter where they are :-p)
Ok, maybe that would make scouting too easy and thus boring, so I can live with the proposed changes just as well.
One thing that will definitely become a lot easier: Scouts scanning in high/low for wormholes with targets in them. As it is now, the scout has to give the BM to any wormhole he finds to a corpmate before he goes in. So that if the wormhole contains targets he doesn't have to get out again to lead the fleet in, thereby doubling the risk of being seen. With the change he can just make corp BMs if the found system is worthwile. The delay won't matter because the fleet will need a few minutes to get to the entrance anyway. |
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CCP Tuxford
C C P C C P Alliance
35
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 09:12:00 -
[61] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:Having folders for corporations client side doesn't really make sense since I've heard that there are actually more than one character per corp (crazy right?). Since we're already creating a folder structure for corporation bookmarks to be stored on the DB it didn't make a lot of sense to not move your personal bookmark folders to the server as well. This sounds great, but how will the transition go? Will all our client-side folders dissapear on patch day, or be transferred? Transferred. https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/CCP%20Tuxford/StatusUpdates |
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Liu Ellens
Blame The Bunny The Dark Nation
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 09:36:00 -
[62] - Quote
I still haven't come round to have a first-hand experience, but reading the notes I highly support to use the Communications Officers role instead of Director (!). For reasons that are hopefully clear and obvious. I'm a little freighter - short and stout; This is my cargo, this is my route. When I get a lock-on, I scream and shout: "Light up a cyno!" and jump on out. |
Potato IQ
Hedion University Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 11:22:00 -
[63] - Quote
Geldorf Drakar wrote: You don't live in a wormhole, do you?
I like the way you say that and then type the response below it. Made me smile
Geldorf Drakar wrote: A) In wormholes, if somebody has a probe out looking for new sigs as they appear... they are going to pick up your ship's sig on scan as soon as you decloak at that planet off D-scan, and they are going to run.
You have probes on your filter, so you know if safe to uncloak or not if you check the system. Of course, this doesnGÇÖt mean to say a cov-ops will pick you up on their D-scan if in range
Geldorf Drakar wrote: B) Going to another system to move bookmarks would probably take several minutes anyways.
But we are arguing the 5 minute delay uncloaked or 15 minutes cloaked. Which is quicker, 5 + 2 to get to another system or 15?
Geldorf Drakar wrote: C) The point is to prevent scouts from exploiting any weakness in the corp bookmark mechanics to allow them to do something they otherwise couldnt, like broadcasting a location as a bookmark to provide a fleet warpin without ever having had to move their ship. If they warp out and decloak somewhere else to move bookmarks to corp, they might as well have just warped back to the bookmark and provided a warpin, without having to decloak.
For multiple locations, the current method exists by having to get back to fleet in another system to drop BMGÇÖs. This risk of returning and either getting popped or showing your hand is being removed, albeit with a time delay
Geldorf Drakar wrote: Yea, you can get around the time delay by decloaking somewhere else, and you can get around it by warping off and then warping back to the bookmark you made without decloaking. That's not the issue. The issue is keeping somebody from creating a corp bookmark without having to put some effort and risk into their action. Preventing them from adding to corp bookmarks while cloaked forces them to decloak somewhere, or warp off and back in, risking getting caught by probes or D-Scan, or losing sight of the target and having the target warp off while they are absent, respectively, thus risking something in the endevour.
A large delay and/or a cloak status based limitation prevents people from using corp bookmarks like on demand insta-warpins to remote targets.
As said, as opposed to having to get back to the fleet, likely through the hole or holes you came in, adding far greater risk than an off D-scan de-cloak. What if youGÇÖve just gone through a chain of WHGÇÖs which were inhabited. No need to run the gauntlet back through these WHGÇÖs to get the route to fleet. Free and easy in just 15 minutes or less
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Slaktoid
Aperture Harmonics K162
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 11:35:00 -
[64] - Quote
Initially thoughts is that 5 minutes would be OP. I mean even Joe Blow can warp cloaked to a site, BM a wreck and provide fleetwarpin. 5 minutes is not alot of time when you've just triggered a couple of Sleeper Capwaves. I would like to test this in practice on a day-to-day basis for a couple of months. All I ask is that CCP Tuxford doesn't close the door on us completely on this issue, and that we can have a chat about rebalancing some time in the future if it's needed.
The last thing I wanna see is that we diminish the scout metagame in any way. That we make people lazy. I feel that the corp should need to put the work in before reaping the rewards. All I really want to see are bookmarks for wh-chains and ie. jumpbridges. We want to do away with the BM can on the POS and the endless BM contracts in K-Space stations, nothing more really.
Also curious about the BMs on overview. Is this something we could be looking at in the future?
Forgot to add: Big Thank you to Two Step for pushing this forward, and CCP Tuxford for actually doing it. For many of us WH Dwellers this will probably be the most significant patch since Apocrypha. Good work! |
Potato IQ
Hedion University Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 11:54:00 -
[65] - Quote
The corp folder is attached by the CEO/Directors to a system or x limited number of systems. Can only move a BM from private to corp folder when in one of the designated systems and is instant. Role restricted amount of additional system additions for ops
Each corp folder is automatically updated and merged into an Alliance folder
The missing issue is transferring private BM without the need of a can. An uncloaked instant in-system fleet transmit folder feature thing?
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
80
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 15:21:00 -
[66] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote: Having folders for corporations client side doesn't really make sense since I've heard that there are actually more than one character per corp (crazy right?). Since we're already creating a folder structure for corporation bookmarks to be stored on the DB it didn't make a lot of sense to not move your personal bookmark folders to the server as well.
This just keeps getting better and better!
|
Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
391
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 16:58:00 -
[67] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:jonnykefka wrote: Other thought: If the 5-minute delay is non-negotiable for technical reasons, then there is no reason to prohibit cloakies from copying BMs to the corp folder while cloaked. I was actually looking forward to being able to share BMs while cloaked as one of the big upgrades over copying the silly things to my cargohold. Requiring us to spend the extra 5-10 seconds decloaked at a safe-spot or midwarp to drag them from our BMs to the corp folder when there's a five-minute delay before the rest of the corp will get it anyways seems pointless.
I mentioned this whole issue of boosting scouts to a game designer and he wasn't really that stressed since we had the caching for 5 minutes (although he didn't want to commit to not being stressed about it later ). Yes making a 120km journey on going 250m/s takes 8 minutes but then again making a bookmark warping out and back in to the bookmark is way faster anyway. However the caching is 5 minutes so on average you will actually get the bookmarks 2.5 minutes later. Having this restricted by your cloaked state is very hard because, and excuse me for getting technical, the node we ask to copy the bookmarks is not the same as the one that the solar system is located on. However if needed then forcing a delay on the bookmarks to show up for other users is not that hard to do if we deem that necessary.
Just block folks from making or moving bms into the corp folders while cloaked.
CCP Tuxford wrote: A lot of people have been involved in this feature. Awesome as I may be then the real thanks should go to the guy that made this a priority. I'm really just the tool.
Note to self: Stop referring to self as a tool.
I think Soundwave made this a priority just to shut me up... :) CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog What does CSM 6 do? |
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CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
37
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 17:04:00 -
[68] - Quote
Hey everyone, I'm the designer Tux talked to.
We're both open to making further adjustments to the timing issue if needed*, but if we're going to add additional complexity to the code (needs more testing, makes maintenance harder, more code that can potentially break), we want to be sure that it's strictly necessary.
Obviously I see that rapid bookmark distribution is a bonus, but given the existing ability to yo-yo to the nearest celestial with negligible risk in under a minute, I'm currently looking at this as a fairly thin bonus, and it's not immediately obvious that the state of affairs that will exist if this change goes through as-is is actually broken or unbalanced, as opposed to just being different to how things are currently.
The only case I'm really seeing as potentially problematic right now is trying to jump ratters in nullsec, because the 30-60 seconds potentially shaved there could make a real difference. I'm listening for concerns in this or other scenarios, though.
*What it'll be doing currently is that, every five minutes, all bookmarks are synced. This is not the same as a five-minute delay, because if you create your BM two seconds before the server runs its sync, your corpmates will get it pretty much straight away. We can I think do stuff like make the sync ignore BMs less than x minutes old if we want to, but as above the extra complexity needs to justify itself. |
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Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
391
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 17:22:00 -
[69] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Hey everyone, I'm the designer Tux talked to.
We're both open to making further adjustments to the timing issue if needed*, but if we're going to add additional complexity to the code (needs more testing, makes maintenance harder, more code that can potentially break), we want to be sure that it's strictly necessary.
Obviously I see that rapid bookmark distribution is a bonus, but given the existing ability to yo-yo to the nearest celestial with negligible risk in under a minute, I'm currently looking at this as a fairly thin bonus, and it's not immediately obvious that the state of affairs that will exist if this change goes through as-is is actually broken or unbalanced, as opposed to just being different to how things are currently.
The only case I'm really seeing as potentially problematic right now is trying to jump ratters in nullsec, because the 30-60 seconds potentially shaved there could make a real difference. I'm listening for concerns in this or other scenarios, though.
*What it'll be doing currently is that, every five minutes, all bookmarks are synced. This is not the same as a five-minute delay, because if you create your BM two seconds before the server runs its sync, your corpmates will get it pretty much straight away. We can I think do stuff like make the sync ignore BMs less than x minutes old if we want to, but as above the extra complexity needs to justify itself.
Read up for the simple fix to this. Just prevent corp bookmarks from being created on the client while a client is cloaked.
Nullsec is not the issue, since they are gonna see you in local. W-space is the issue, where we often watch people running sites and have enough time to carefully plan our attack. Right now, getting a good warpin on someone running a sleeper site is somewhat risky, with the changes it will be much, much easier.
I would also suggest making the sync ignore BMs less than 2 minutes old, as that system would be exploited as well. CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog What does CSM 6 do? |
Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices Silent Infinity
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 17:38:00 -
[70] - Quote
Whe you're taking a look at bookmarks, could you please take a look at the foldering capabilities? When we have lotsa more bookmarks than the screen size, then it's getting very tough to add the lower ones into folders. Something like doing a rclick on a selection of bookmarks and having the option to "move to folder X" would be great. Similar how it works on drones.
Otherwise it's a pretty awesome feature, thank you very much for implementing this. |
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Zedah Zoid
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 18:26:00 -
[71] - Quote
Two step wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Hey everyone, I'm the designer Tux talked to.
We're both open to making further adjustments to the timing issue if needed*, but if we're going to add additional complexity to the code (needs more testing, makes maintenance harder, more code that can potentially break), we want to be sure that it's strictly necessary.
Obviously I see that rapid bookmark distribution is a bonus, but given the existing ability to yo-yo to the nearest celestial with negligible risk in under a minute, I'm currently looking at this as a fairly thin bonus, and it's not immediately obvious that the state of affairs that will exist if this change goes through as-is is actually broken or unbalanced, as opposed to just being different to how things are currently.
The only case I'm really seeing as potentially problematic right now is trying to jump ratters in nullsec, because the 30-60 seconds potentially shaved there could make a real difference. I'm listening for concerns in this or other scenarios, though.
*What it'll be doing currently is that, every five minutes, all bookmarks are synced. This is not the same as a five-minute delay, because if you create your BM two seconds before the server runs its sync, your corpmates will get it pretty much straight away. We can I think do stuff like make the sync ignore BMs less than x minutes old if we want to, but as above the extra complexity needs to justify itself. Read up for the simple fix to this. Just prevent corp bookmarks from being created on the client while a client is cloaked. Nullsec is not the issue, since they are gonna see you in local. W-space is the issue, where we often watch people running sites and have enough time to carefully plan our attack. Right now, getting a good warpin on someone running a sleeper site is somewhat risky, with the changes it will be much, much easier. I would also suggest making the sync ignore BMs less than 2 minutes old, as that system would be exploited as well.
I agree. My fear is that with a hardcoded interval for propagating bookmarks is that the pressure will be on to develop tools and/or techniques to predict when the next update will happen and these tools and/or techniques will require someone to create "baseline" dummy bookmarks from time to time just to establish where we are in the cycle of creation versus propagation.
And yes it sounds insane but I guarantee it will be done because it gives you an edge in getting your fleet ready to move etc. If the propagation interval varied randomly(due to subspace interference of course...) then you remove the incentive to try to create tools to predict the time the next update hits.
I can see how a global polling interval is good for you guys as opposed to dealing with potentially thousands of interrupt driven individual events but does the interval really have to be fixed? Just say they'll propagate somewhere between 3 and 7 minutes or 4 and 6 minutes or whatever. I admit I have not played with this yet on SISI. Do you have to take some action to refresh your corp BM list or do they just automatically show up when the propagation interval fires? If it requires a player action then that potentially becomes another d-scan like click-fest to anticipate getting them.
BTW, thanks for looking into this! |
Circumstantial Evidence
16
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 19:21:00 -
[72] - Quote
Magic Crisp wrote:Whe you're taking a look at bookmarks, could you please take a look at the foldering capabilities? When we have lotsa more bookmarks than the screen size, then it's getting very tough to add the lower ones into folders. A handy method here is to double-click on the bookmark folder - to open it in a new window. Then you can scroll the list as you please and drag / drop BM's into the folder-window. |
Dr Mercy
EC Riders Mech Alliance
22
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 20:49:00 -
[73] - Quote
Sorry if this has been answered already, but how does a bookmark become a corp bookmark? Does the method end up requiring the player to be uncloaked? |
Rafe Vatta
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 20:55:00 -
[74] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Obviously I see that rapid bookmark distribution is a bonus, but given the existing ability to yo-yo to the nearest celestial with negligible risk in under a minute, I'm currently looking at this as a fairly thin bonus, and it's not immediately obvious that the state of affairs that will exist if this change goes through as-is is actually broken or unbalanced, as opposed to just being different to how things are currently. If it's just the one system worth of bookmarks, I would agree that 5 minutes is not that overpowered - especially if there wasn't the possibility of instant bookmarks.
But sometimes I'm scouting a chain of wormholes, and I'm all on my own looking for targets. Maybe the chain is even starting from some k-space system that is vaguely nearby our home system. At some point maybe I get three wormholes deep from my starting system and I find some targets. Everyone can get to the starting system, either via bookmarks that have already propagated, or gates, or whatever, but they can't get to me.
Currently, the procedure is to either have me jump all the way back to fetch the reinforcement fleet from 3 jumps away (and risk being seen on dscan jumping out), or ask the reinforcement fleet to scan their way in using the signature IDs that I hopefully noted. If bookmarks could propagate within 5 minutes, it would be faster to push them out to the corp than any other method. Now, if I can't push bookmarks to corp while cloaked as Two Step and other have suggested, at least that adds a bit of time and risk. I can either choose to look for a place offscan to copy bookmarks, or jump out to the neighboring system (and risk getting seen jumping out, same as above).
Of course, every time I jump through a new wormhole, I would be decloaked anyways, so it would make sense to just push the updates for each system when I jump. So I don't actually need to do anything special to get the reinforcement fleet up to the right system, just wait for the bookmarks to propogate. Then it's just a matter of providing a warpin or slinging the fleet.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of being able to scout completely solo, not recording sigs or anything, and have my reinforcement fleet magically appear where it's needed. I am just not sure it's a mechanic that is good for the game. It's probably a bit of an edge case, but hopefully I explained it well enough that you can now decide how it factors into things. Don't have any ideas for fixing at the moment either.
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GeeShizzle MacCloud
14
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 22:36:00 -
[75] - Quote
i know this might seem a bit mad and i guess some people may rage about this but currently a cloaky scout can be on grid and bookmark an object close to a target and then warp out.. jump out and copy bm's to their FC that can in turn jump in with a fleet and warp a fleet on top of them.
We also currently have TWO ways of making bookmarks, via right clicking an object in space and by opening up people/places and clicking "bookmark location"
>> how about disabling the right click style of bookmarks when your cloaked, but still allow the "bookmark location" form when cloaked.
What this would mean is cloaky scouts cant insta BM stuff 100's of KM away and should use "bookmark location" bm's and warp to's from celestials to get closer to a target to get a good tactical BM. Or they can align out and uncloak and grab that BM just b4 warping out. This would solve the OP nature of covert right click BM;ing objects in space and chucking them in corp BM folder.
My issue with the corp BM even with the 5min delay, and EVEN with the inability to sync BM's to corp when cloaked, is that a savvy cloaky scout can BM an area.. and warp to an area more than 16AU away, decloak and start the sync uncloaked without the problem of being d-scanned.
I would also like to add that the Corp BM addition/deletion should be tied in to the corp fittings role as its a tactical / Quality of life assistance role. You should also only be able to add and delete Corp BM's and not be able to drag Corp BM's OUT of the corp folder. much like implants, u can put them in and share them but you cant remove them without destroying them.
People should NOT be able to copy Corp BM's themselves to whoever they please out of corp, even WITH the right roles to add etc...
They should remain a corp asset unless the original creator wishes to gift them to other corps.
Like a form of intellectual property, Corp BM's should act like a licence to use something but restricting the ability to RE-distribute in an ad-hoc nature. |
Sassums
Wormhole Exploration Crew Transmission Lost
19
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 03:38:00 -
[76] - Quote
The 5 minute delay once again is a negative for us in the WH.
While members can always warp to a fleet member, if the member is not in the same system, but new members are logging on, it would be nice to have them be able to warp to a BM that we just created, or if we need help NOW, rather than 5 minutes from now.
Any word on if the Alliance Bookmark system is something you folks can implement? |
Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 06:23:00 -
[77] - Quote
CCP while it seems on the surface to be a "thin bonus" Just like AFK cloaking tacticians will dive into it and every aspect you could not even dream of intending it for. Because those who can make use of it get lots of blips on the killboards.
For ratters this is an absolute nightmare. An AFK cloaky can return active and set the right bookmarks to get an interceptor of a roaming fleet on top of you in the blink of an eye if it is close to the gate. Before you could atleast be out of range of the warpin with good bookmark use but now the rat you destroyed will be the beacon that finds you scrammed and owned in no time.
I understand there is a technical issue with a direct block on access while cloaked server side. However if I may suggest something client side that blocks access to create them while cloaked. I second the idea to block the right click method while cloaked as a way to preserve the old way to create them as a lesser monster but even that I fear will be abused.
I know the clock is ticking and the benefits of it at the start will outweigh the risks. However I suspect that will change quickly and I do request if you can implement a way to assure that bookmarks wont show for atleast 5 mins. Then have that ready for quick deployment in early 2012.
Atleast with a 5 min delay the abuse can be countered by having a number of warp in bookmarks to the belt to prevent an instapwn. |
Faeyen
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
9
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 06:31:00 -
[78] - Quote
It almost seems like now that Corp bookmarks are finally coming that people are realizing that they didn't even want them in the first place... Corp bookmarks has always meant that scouts would not have to go through the process of phsically sharing bookmarks throughout the Corp. It seems to me that what people really want is a way to copy more than 5 bookmarks at a time. Nice try ccp but it looks like you need to start all over. |
Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 07:11:00 -
[79] - Quote
Faeyen wrote:It almost seems like now that Corp bookmarks are finally coming that people are realizing that they didn't even want them in the first place... Corp bookmarks have always meant that scouts would not have to go through the process of phsically sharing bookmarks throughout the Corp. It seems to me that what people really want is a way to copy more than 5 bookmarks at a time. Nice try ccp but it looks like you need to start all over.
Nono!
This is an issue that can be abused greatly but the idea of corp bookmarks is still valid.
It would still be highly useful even with a 2 hour delay because its big use is after someone scans down the sites after DT. The issue can be hopefully addressed to prevent mass abuse ala AFK cloaking. Yet that doesn't take away from how good corp bookmarks are. |
Greygal
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
54
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 08:40:00 -
[80] - Quote
The issue with corp bookmarks being used to warp into someone ratting is a none-issue: Fleets can warp to a cloaked fleet member already. This issue, in my less than humble opinion :), is not worth even debating.
What *IS* worth debating is the fact that currently, on SISI, we are limited to ONLY 250 corp bookmarks. That is NOT ENOUGH. In fact, there should be NO limit whatsoever, just as there currently is no limit.
Considering I can easily have 20, 25, or more bookmarks in a single system what with undocks, tac's off gates, etc., 250 bookmarks is not even remotely enough.
I have not checked yet, but I certainly hope there is not a limit to personal bookmarks.
Please reconsider having any limit on the total number of corp bookmarks.
What you do for yourself dies with you, what you do for others is immortal. |
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CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
40
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 12:44:00 -
[81] - Quote
Zedah Zoid wrote:I agree. My fear is that with a hardcoded interval for propagating bookmarks is that the pressure will be on to develop tools and/or techniques to predict when the next update will happen and these tools and/or techniques will require someone to create "baseline" dummy bookmarks from time to time just to establish where we are in the cycle of creation versus propagation.
And yes it sounds insane but I guarantee it will be done because it gives you an edge in getting your fleet ready to move etc. If the propagation interval varied randomly(due to subspace interference of course...) then you remove the incentive to try to create tools to predict the time the next update hits.
Doesn't sound even slightly insane. I've been assuming that people would do this as soon as I understood how we're implementing the caching :) The question is whether it's bad, and why.
Two step wrote:Nullsec is not the issue, since they are gonna see you in local. W-space is the issue, where we often watch people running sites and have enough time to carefully plan our attack. Right now, getting a good warpin on someone running a sleeper site is somewhat risky, with the changes it will be much, much easier.
Rafe Vatta wrote:Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of being able to scout completely solo, not recording sigs or anything, and have my reinforcement fleet magically appear where it's needed. I am just not sure it's a mechanic that is good for the game. It's probably a bit of an edge case, but hopefully I explained it well enough that you can now decide how it factors into things. Don't have any ideas for fixing at the moment either.
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote: My issue with the corp BM even with the 5min delay, and EVEN with the inability to sync BM's to corp when cloaked, is that a savvy cloaky scout can BM an area.. and warp to an area more than 16AU away, decloak and start the sync uncloaked without the problem of being d-scanned.
Just to be totally clear: we understand that this change will make things different in these areas. We're not keen on changing the behavior though unless we have clear-cut cases where it's bad and we can see why it's bad.
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:For ratters this is an absolute nightmare. An AFK cloaky can return active and set the right bookmarks to get an interceptor of a roaming fleet on top of you in the blink of an eye if it is close to the gate. Before you could atleast be out of range of the warpin with good bookmark use but now the rat you destroyed will be the beacon that finds you scrammed and owned in no time.
I understand there is a technical issue with a direct block on access while cloaked server side. However if I may suggest something client side that blocks access to create them while cloaked. I second the idea to block the right click method while cloaked as a way to preserve the old way to create them as a lesser monster but even that I fear will be abused.
I know the clock is ticking and the benefits of it at the start will outweigh the risks. However I suspect that will change quickly and
This is the sort of info that can potentially change our mind - an explanation of where this could shift the balance of power in a bad way :)
(That said, I'm not convinced by this particular case - you can't tell when an AFK cloaker's come back, so even with what's on TQ currently I as an AFK cloaker can come back, bookmark a can, bounce off a planet and set up an instant warp-in; corp bookmarks trim ~1 minute off the pre-interceptor-jump-in time, which is not at all time-sensitive.
Also implementing checks like this on the client is a total non-starter - we want to move towards a place where people using hacked clients have fewer advantages, not more. |
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GeeShizzle MacCloud
15
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Posted - 2011.11.05 13:14:00 -
[82] - Quote
We currently have TWO ways of making bookmarks, via right clicking an object in space and by opening up people/places and clicking "bookmark location"
>> CCP should disable the right click style of bookmarking when your cloaked, but still allow the "bookmark location" form when cloaked <<
What this would mean is cloaky scouts cant insta BM stuff 100's of KM away and should use "bookmark location" bm's and warp to's either to the specific item or from celestials to get closer to a target to get a good tactical BM. that way there is risk involved in covertly providing tactical Bookmarks!
They could also align out and uncloak and grab that BM just b4 warping out. This would solve the OP nature of covert right click BM'ing objects in space and chucking them in corp BM folder.
You should also only be able to add and delete Corp BM's and should not be able to drag Corp BM's OUT of the corp folder. much like implants, u can put them in and share them but you cant remove them without destroying them.
Corp BM's should remain a corp asset unless the original creator wishes to gift them to other corps.
BM's should be considered a form of intellectual property, Corp BM's should act like a licence to use something but restricting the ability to RE-distribute in an ad-hoc nature.
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Ampoliros
Aperture Harmonics K162
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 14:54:00 -
[83] - Quote
i'm in agreement with Greyscale on this - i don't see the issue with the 5min timer. It's already pretty easy to provide warpins via fleet warps or warping to a fleet member, all this does is eliminate some logistical hassle in sorting out fleet warps.
At worst, I would say that Slaktoid has the right idea, and CCP should be sure to keep a dialogue open on the exact duration of the timer in case something horrible happens; but i think honestly, things will be fine |
Asayanami Dei
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
112
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 15:01:00 -
[84] - Quote
Ampoliros wrote:i'm in agreement with Greyscale on this - i don't see the issue with the 5min timer. It's already pretty easy to provide warpins via fleet warps or warping to a fleet member, all this does is eliminate some logistical hassle in sorting out fleet warps.
At worst, I would say that Slaktoid has the right idea, and CCP should be sure to keep a dialogue open on the exact duration of the timer in case something horrible happens; but i think honestly, things will be fine I think issues like this will simply need to be revisited later on, after it has been live on TQ for a while.
My youtube channel Video Thread |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
117
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 15:31:00 -
[85] - Quote
The feature is great.
I think for fleet situations the corp bookmarks aren't going to be that dramatically different. A good cov ops can drop an interceptor on a ratter easily anyways. A good ratter/mission runner should be aligned out and ready to move out and have his scanner up all the time anyways.
The bigger issue i see corp bookmarks getting "interesting" is for sniping fleets on gates.
Covert Ops can start setting up bookmarks on extended fights and move around and set up more and more bookmarks in the middle of a battle with snipers, and the snipers can start to warp to those while the cov ops gets into position to do other things, rather than only hanging on that gate.
I don't actually think that's a bad thing. It means that more strategic opportunities become available to null fleets than brawling setups. But I do agree there are concerns with being able to instantly share positions.
NOSTRO AURUM NON EST AURUM VULGI |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
15
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 17:04:00 -
[86] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote: Also implementing checks like this on the client is a total non-starter - we want to move towards a place where people using hacked clients have fewer advantages, not more.
i was under the impression that bookmarks are saved server side not client side? so when u create a bookmark is created server side and relayed to the client. are you saying its the other way round? cause if so how can 2 people creating safes between two object land on each other accidently?? (which i have heard happens)
afaik the bookmarking task gets requested to the server to be completed on the first available server tick, and after that its relayed to the client that created it.
or does it work that the bookmark is instantly created client side and waits for the server tick to 'sync' the server version of that same bookmark to the client that created it?
in either case u have a request to the server either to create or to update a bookmarks position... which u can use as a trigger to check the clients cloaked status. If theyre cloaked according to the server the request is denied. and that stops any movement to that bookmark afterwards.
CCP Greyscale wrote: That said, I'm not convinced by this particular case - you can't tell when an AFK cloaker's come back, so even with what's on TQ currently I as an AFK cloaker can come back, bookmark a can, bounce off a planet and set up an instant warp-in; corp bookmarks trim ~1 minute off the pre-interceptor-jump-in time, which is not at all time-sensitive.
Yes you cannot tell when an afk cloaker comes back on grid when cloaked. but disabling the right click version of bookmarking means that cloaky scout has to bounce off something and back at range to the location they were at. Sometimes celestials are available to do this in the direction you require, sometimes theyre NOT. In either case to get that optimum bookmark for a fleet to pounce on would require a cloaky scout to risk being uncloaked when coming back onto the grid trying to work to get that bookmark. Yes it can be done, and it can achieve the same effect as right click > save bookmark, then share with corps, but it requires effort and risks an AFK cloaky scout to be revealed.
RISK VS REWARD - the eve motto!
I can tell you right now that if ur plexing and u have a neut or red in local, u do not feel safe, period. when u have nothing in local u do feel safe, so you do tend to come back out and carry on. AFK cloakies are considered AFK, thats why theyre named that, but right now... on TQ, afk cloakies dont have to risk anything to get bookmarks in a plex or similar.
With the inclusion of corp bookmarks it means he can share those bookmarks, go offline, and then in 5 mins have a fleet jump in and warp in to the plex (or whatever) at point range as if by magic.
No one in system would have seen a scout jump out, and if the scouts done his job correctly then no one would have picked him up on dscan when logging off. The unfortunate person bout to be ganked would consider the system safe to rat/plex/mine etc...
Thats the scenario i think we all want to avoid. Keeping the bookmark of objects while cloaked, and introducing Corp Shared Bookmarks WILL mean this is guaranteed to happen at the lowest risk possible to the aggressors. |
Messoroz
AQUILA INC
46
|
Posted - 2011.11.05 18:00:00 -
[87] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:Jack Dant wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:Having folders for corporations client side doesn't really make sense since I've heard that there are actually more than one character per corp (crazy right?). Since we're already creating a folder structure for corporation bookmarks to be stored on the DB it didn't make a lot of sense to not move your personal bookmark folders to the server as well. This sounds great, but how will the transition go? Will all our client-side folders dissapear on patch day, or be transferred? Transferred.
What happens when I log onto my client on my laptop after patch like normal and my 500+ bookmarks of safes, poses, etc gets transferred with their folders.
But 2 months later I log onto my desktop and update and log into the client which has most of the same bookmarks but in slightly different folders? |
Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
21
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Posted - 2011.11.05 18:55:00 -
[88] - Quote
Now that I think about it Greyscale, you are right that is a nonstarter for the client idea.
But I disagree with how you are perceiving the overall situation. A good interceptor pilot with the right geometry and distance can warp to a point in the belt in seconds. That one min isn't just some extra min spent lollygagging. Its one min that will mean active pilots can call for support to log in or warp away. |
Circumstantial Evidence
17
|
Posted - 2011.11.06 21:25:00 -
[89] - Quote
Greygal wrote:Currently, on SISI, we are limited to ONLY 250 corp bookmarks. At least that's what it looks like to me. Hopefully I'm reading that wrong - but if I'm not, 250 corp bookmarks is NOT ENOUGH. +5000
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Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
281
|
Posted - 2011.11.06 22:06:00 -
[90] - Quote
Faeyen wrote:Jack Dant wrote:CCP Tuxford wrote:Having folders for corporations client side doesn't really make sense since I've heard that there are actually more than one character per corp (crazy right?). Since we're already creating a folder structure for corporation bookmarks to be stored on the DB it didn't make a lot of sense to not move your personal bookmark folders to the server as well. This sounds great, but how will the transition go? Will all our client-side folders dissapear on patch day, or be transferred? This is not such a big deal for myself as I have a fairly simple folder system, but others rely on their bookmark folders quite heavily. I would at least say that the folders are important to them and redoing them would be a chore.
Smart pilots (and those who have listened to the smart pilots) have preached for years that you need to always prefix your bookmarks with some sort of code which makes it easy to sort them back into folders (in case you lose your folders).
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Bookmarks#Organizing_and_managing_bookmarks
Any pilot who didn't follow a system deserves the pain when they lose their folders. (Such as when the EVE client acts up and deletes or corrupts its own settings file.)
Naturally, if the client can grab the existing folder/bookmark relationship - that would be a good thing. |
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Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
281
|
Posted - 2011.11.06 22:20:00 -
[91] - Quote
250 sounds about right - it will force corporations to prioritize which bookmarks get shared. (Limited resources and resource management are a key part of any MMO.)
If you let corps do more then 250, then what's to stop an evil spy with the ability to create corp bookmarks from creating a few hundred bookmarks in a specific system, then arrange a fleet fight where you jump and lag out due to all that time spent loading bookmarks? Or killing the right-click menu for you due to there being a few hundred bookmarks in the right-click list?
As for the delay, I suggest that no bookmarks less then 5 minutes old be allowed to propagate during the syncs that run every 5 minutes. That will do away with people attempting to time the sync interval in order to get distributed bookmarks that are less then 30 seconds old. It would push the average bookmark age to 7.5 minutes instead of 2.5 minutes.
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Jervis Clayton
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 02:53:00 -
[92] - Quote
I gotta say, I agree with CCP here, 5 minutes or 0 minutes, doesn't make a huge difference to scouts.
Right now a cloaky can bm a wreck right next to a ratter, warp at range to the K162, have the whole fleet jump into the system, and fleet warp the fleet right on the bookmark. That's just about as instant as you can get and if the covops cancels cloak
Also, the 120km burn theory is completely fubar.
120km @ 250m/s == 8 Minutes 120km @ 500m/s == 4 Minutes 30km @ 250m/s + Reverse align for warp == 2 Minutes +some change 30km @ 500m/s + Reverse align for warp == 1 Minute + some change
Really a thin bonus.
The only argument that I see as valid is the cloaky scout scouting a wh chain and being able to share easier, without having to provide warpin's/return to get the fleet. Imo, this shouldn't really be a big problem because it only affects wh residents, and it actually encourages more small-gang pvp. Let's have it.
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Lenid Kalkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.07 06:27:00 -
[93] - Quote
With a good set of pilots, instantaneous shared bookmarks is functionally the same thing as being able to initiate fleet warps for ships on a different grid. So no more needing the FC to probe things out, be on same grid as fleet, and do the gang warp.
In the past, an FC had 2 options if he wanted to warp his fleet onto a different grid and engage the enemy.
1) Warp everyone at 0-100km from an in place scout. This could be dangerous (and SLOW) for a scout and specific angles were incredibly hard to get set up correctly (for bomb runs).
2) Warp fleet to probe results. Good luck in trying to choose where you'd land on grid because all you got were 100s of identical hits at 38.8 AU (aka no useful differentiation in your probe results other than ship type)
Now a single scout on grid with probes has exact and useful range to every ship on grid and can precisely identify which probe result is which ship on grid. Book mark it. And instantly have his/her fleet warping to the exact spot.
Viva la bombing runs. It's not the end of sub-bs fleets, but it's a big step in that direction. |
Aelana Anais
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.10 21:30:00 -
[94] - Quote
Lenid Kalkin wrote: With a good set of pilots, instantaneous shared bookmarks is functionally the same thing as being able to initiate fleet warps for ships on a different grid. So no more needing the FC to probe things out, be on same grid as fleet, and do the gang warp.
In the past, an FC had 2 options if he wanted to warp his fleet onto a different grid and engage the enemy.
1) Warp everyone at 0-100km from an in place scout. This could be dangerous (and SLOW) for a scout and specific angles were incredibly hard to get set up correctly (for bomb runs).
2) Warp fleet to probe results. Good luck in trying to choose where you'd land on grid because all you got were 100s of identical hits at 38.8 AU (aka no useful differentiation in your probe results other than ship type)
Now a single scout on grid with probes has exact and useful range to every ship on grid and can precisely identify which probe result is which ship on grid. Book mark it. And instantly have his/her fleet warping to the exact spot.
Viva la bombing runs. It's not the end of sub-bs fleets, but it's a big step in that direction.
Well right now you can have a scout on grid with probes and an FC with the fleet also with probes and accomplish the same thing (scout relays which signatures are which so the FC knows exactly which one to warp to).
To those not too familiar with probing, in addition to " 100s of identical hits at 38.8 AU (aka no useful differentiation in your probe results other than ship type)" you get an ID with each result. That ID is the same for the FC as it is for the scout so the scout who is on grid can figure out from distance which result is which and tell the FC which ID to warp to. |
Stralow
Die rot-weiss-roten Piloten Bruderschaft der Pilger
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 11:35:00 -
[95] - Quote
I've testet Corp BMs on the latest and final sisi build and i have a suggestion. Maybe i've missed something, but this is how i get it:
I've created a BM on one char and moved it to the corp BM folder. Then I've watched the second account with the p&p tab open. Nothing happend. After a while i closed p&p on the 2nd account and reopend it and voila there is the Corp BM from the 1st account. is it possible to let the p&p tab on the left blink if there is a nre corp BM? Now you have to close and reopen it to see if there is something new. As i live in a WH there will be much of changing BMs.
And the second is the thing with the Communication Officerrole to delete BMs, thats not very good. In a WH all ppl make BMs and lots of ppl should delete old BMs, because WHs, annos, sigs and all that stuff appear and disappears all the time. So a WH corp has to give the right to every member to work with that tool properly. Maybe its possible to make special BMs a CEO/director can set and a normal member can't delete and a normal set of BMs that everyone can play around with and delete? i say we take off and nuke the whole site from orbit. it's the only way to be sure |
Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices Silent Infinity
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 12:41:00 -
[96] - Quote
Also it'd be awesome to restrict a few corp BM folders to some members, even for read access (that is, for seeing and/or using them). There are some BMs which should be secured, but would be awesome to be shared through this new feature.
Like only FCs getting the set of important BMs for an upcoming OP, or a wormhole's entrence, or such thing. Other common bookmarks, like mining spots, undock BMs and similar things can be accessed by everyone in a corp by default.
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LacLongQuan
Deep Space Expedition.
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 12:42:00 -
[97] - Quote
Stralow wrote:I've testet Corp BMs on the latest and final sisi build and i have a suggestion. Maybe i've missed something, but this is how i get it:
I've created a BM on one char and moved it to the corp BM folder. Then I've watched the second account with the p&p tab open. Nothing happend. After a while i closed p&p on the 2nd account and reopend it and voila there is the Corp BM from the 1st account. is it possible to let the p&p tab on the left blink if there is a new corp BM? Now you have to close and reopen it to see if there is something new. As i live in a WH there will be much of changing BMs all the time.
And the second is the thing with the Communication Officerrole to delete BMs, thats not very good. In a WH all ppl make BMs and lots of ppl should delete old BMs, because WHs, annos, sigs and all that stuff appear and disappears all the time. So a WH corp has to give the right to every member to work with that tool properly. Maybe its possible to make special BMs a CEO/director can set and a normal member can't delete and a normal set of BMs that everyone can play around with and delete? very good idea, this way can help prevent spais and noob |
Megarom
Shiva Morsus Mihi
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 12:54:00 -
[98] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote: As for the delay, I suggest that no bookmarks less then 5 minutes old be allowed to propagate during the syncs that run every 5 minutes. That will do away with people attempting to time the sync interval in order to get distributed bookmarks that are less then 30 seconds old. It would push the average bookmark age to 7.5 minutes instead of 2.5 minutes.
This is exactly what my coders brain came up with while reading the thread. The timestamps are already there and it's just one if more so shouldn't over complicate things. Added benefit is that you can make the game designers feel important by letting them decide the values of the two timers.
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Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
120
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Posted - 2011.11.15 15:38:00 -
[99] - Quote
CCP Tuxford wrote:I think I know what you're getting at. So basically a cloaked ship can create a bookmark near a fleet and the rest warp in there. I don't think it's that big of an issue as people can already warp to the cloaked ship anyway. Of course there could be something that I'm missing. The restriction is for server performance so having it instant isn't really up for debate anyway Putting any kind of predictable update on a public (corp or otherwise) bookmark locations can be potentially exploitable in a fleet combat situation.
This also goes with the ability to mail bookmarks, which I'm glad was removed.
It's not Rocket Surgery |
Max Kolonko
Worm Nation Ash Alliance
3
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Posted - 2011.11.15 17:53:00 -
[100] - Quote
For me corp Bookmarks dont work AT ALL :D
Anyway, to CCP Tuxford - I will kill a lot of carabearing ratters in WH in Your name to honor great work You've done to help poor WH dwellers. |
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