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Wolverine PL
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Posted - 2006.01.30 22:20:00 -
[1]
Ok, I dont know what CCP smoke, but WTF they did with Large Shield Extenders??? No caldari (caracal, ferox etc) can put Large Shield Extenders and still put all the rest stuff without problems. That means dmg and tank, while rest of armor tankers have to choose between dmg or tank. So I ask WHY??? Why did you do it?? 1600 t2 plate 575 PG/33 CPU Large Shield Extender 165 PG / 46 CPU Sure I can put Shield Extender on brutix but that ship isnt design to shield tank. So once again Caldari getting uber and uber.
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Spartan III
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Posted - 2006.01.30 22:28:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Wolverine PL
No caldari (caracal, ferox etc) can put Large Shield Extenders and still put all the rest stuff without problems.
Do you mean "Caldari CAN put Large Shield Extenders and put on all the rest of the stuff without problems."? ******************** Join Public Channel "Christian Public Access" for great fellowship and fun |
Mathias Zealot
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Posted - 2006.01.30 22:36:00 -
[3]
1600 T2 Plate: 575PG/33CPU 3360 Armor 800 T2 Plate: 230PG/28CPU 1682 Armor Large Extender T2: 165PG/46CPU 2100 Shield
What's the problem here? Fitting wise it's somewhere between a 1600 and 800 plate and give a bonus to shields that fits this concept. Sure they take less PG than the 800, but it takes more CPU than the 1600 to fit it. that extra cpu often makes the difference between being able to fit another BCU (which i'd note take even more CPU than the turret damage mods) and having to fit something else. Doesn't seem THAT horribly out of line considering the ships it's intended to be fit on.
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MysticNZ
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Posted - 2006.01.30 22:37:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Mathias Zealot 1600 T2 Plate: 575PG/33CPU 3360 Armor 800 T2 Plate: 230PG/28CPU 1682 Armor Large Extender T2: 165PG/46CPU 2100 Shield
What's the problem here? Fitting wise it's somewhere between a 1600 and 800 plate and give a bonus to shields that fits this concept. Sure they take less PG than the 800, but it takes more CPU than the 1600 to fit it. that extra cpu often makes the difference between being able to fit another BCU (which i'd note take even more CPU than the turret damage mods) and having to fit something else. Doesn't seem THAT horribly out of line considering the ships it's intended to be fit on.
I might be mistaken, but isn't there a skill for reducing shield upgrades cpu needs? -
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Antic
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Posted - 2006.01.30 22:40:00 -
[5]
Originally by: MysticNZ
I might be mistaken, but isn't there a skill for reducing shield upgrades cpu needs?
You are indeed mistaken. It reduces shield upgrade powergrid.
PDUIIs can get a CPU decrease from the energy grid upgrades skill but PDUs use such a low amount of CPU anyway that many dosnt bother training it past lvl 4. (i did it anyway)
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Cheechako
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Posted - 2006.01.30 22:42:00 -
[6]
Also, extenders totally make your sig go through the roof, so cruisers and what not that fit them can have some very large sigs which make them a lot easier to take dmg from BSs.
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LUKEC
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Posted - 2006.01.30 23:28:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Cheechako Also, extenders totally make your sig go through the roof, so cruisers and what not that fit them can have some very large sigs which make them a lot easier to take dmg from BSs.
Yeah.. vaga with 2x large extenders has whole 5m bigger sig than deimos. But it has like 3x more hp.
Next.
I use no guns... i smack to death. |
Hamatitio
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Posted - 2006.01.30 23:57:00 -
[8]
Welcome to how it was for shield tankers pre-RMR.
Whine to someone who cares ---
I Post on the forums for Fate. Im cool. Fate. Recruitment Thread |
Cheechako
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Posted - 2006.01.31 00:04:00 -
[9]
Originally by: LUKEC
Originally by: Cheechako Also, extenders totally make your sig go through the roof, so cruisers and what not that fit them can have some very large sigs which make them a lot easier to take dmg from BSs.
Yeah.. vaga with 2x large extenders has whole 5m bigger sig than deimos. But it has like 3x more hp.
Next.
And you're comparing 160 vs 115 stock sigs as well as eating up two of 4 mids. Next
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tenp1
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Posted - 2006.01.31 00:10:00 -
[10]
Also don't forget the benefit to shield regen you get from using large extenders. Shield tanks tend to be the ships with the most cpu, so can easily cover the higher cpu needs. Also as most of the equipment on shield tanks uses a lot less PG than armour tanks, the PG needs for large extenders is no big deal either. The whole bigger sig thing is no major deal either, plates make armour tanks more slugish and so easier to hit as well, but then you have to be able to fit the damn plate first.
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Cheechako
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Posted - 2006.01.31 01:32:00 -
[11]
Yes but most extender ships tend to use missiles which take up a lot of CPU. BCSII anybody?
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ErrorS
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Posted - 2006.01.31 02:06:00 -
[12]
I don't get the problem? We don't have "XL Extenders".. you get double the HP off your big 'extender' than we do ours?
Give me an XL Extender with the specs (all around) of a 1600mm plate and I'd be ecstatic. ________
I'm strict Caldari
"The grass is always greener on the other side" - Maybe they're not as uber as you think?
-ErrorS |
Weirda
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Posted - 2006.01.31 02:36:00 -
[13]
dammit! minmatar take it in the neck again!!! __ Weirda Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More! The pumps don't work... |
Malthros Zenobia
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Posted - 2006.01.31 03:06:00 -
[14]
We just need X-Large and Capital shield extenders, and then 2500mm and 5000mm armor plates.
Xlarge and 2500 are for oversdizing a BS, the capital and 5000 would be strictly for capital ships (duh).
Then again, having carriers with 100k+ shields/armor might not be a good idea...
At the very least an x-large extender/armor plate should get thrown in for those who would want to passive tank their shield tanking BS, or have a sickeningly high amount of armor on their armor tanker.
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I'm probably one of the biggest Bush fanboys in Eve... This is like, Darth Vader, can't-reach-climax-without-killing-a-puppy evil.
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Kldraina
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Posted - 2006.01.31 06:00:00 -
[15]
While Shield tankers can fit damage mods, they don't have room for Web/Scram or EW. Armor tankers do. I can't say which is the bigger sacrifice. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2006.01.31 07:02:00 -
[16]
ôWhile Shield tankers can fit damage mods, they don't have room for Web/Scram or EW. Armor tankers do. I can't say which is the bigger sacrifice.ô You can always as a shield tankers take drones to do the EW and you have low slots for damage mods.
_________________________________________________ Nominate famous people in Eve who had an impact on you. |
Iberi
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Posted - 2006.01.31 10:49:00 -
[17]
1 Armor tank is 20% better on resistance(in general). 2 Armor plating could be much more heavy. Do you count your slots? I do. 3 Armor repairing is cheaper on cap. Do you think about time to run tank? I do. 4 Passive shield tanking is good for PvE and 3 lvl missions(noobs area), but in PvP passive tanking just sucks is ost cases.
I am sure that shield tanking must be radically boosted to balance this game. Currently it is overpowered by armor.
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Gorgons
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Posted - 2006.01.31 10:55:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Pottsey ôWhile Shield tankers can fit damage mods, they don't have room for Web/Scram or EW. Armor tankers do. I can't say which is the bigger sacrifice.ô You can always as a shield tankers take drones to do the EW and you have low slots for damage mods.
nope,
cerb = 0.0 drone space, eagle = 0.0 drone space -------------------------------------------- In the space age the most important space is between the ears. |
Asurix
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Posted - 2006.01.31 10:57:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Iberi 1 Armor tank is 20% better on resistance(in general). 2 Armor plating could be much more heavy. Do you count your slots? I do. 3 Armor repairing is cheaper on cap. Do you think about time to run tank? I do. 4 Passive shield tanking is good for PvE and 3 lvl missions(noobs area), but in PvP passive tanking just sucks is ost cases.
I am sure that shield tanking must be radically boosted to balance this game. Currently it is overpowered by armor.
where have you been?
Shield tanking > Armor tanking. In armor tanking you have to sacrifice tank to get dmg mods etc. Shield tank reps alot faster so it's alot better at tanking high dps over a shorter time (Fleet combat ftw) Shield tanking can tank passively, and even if you don't you always get recharge rate and pdu's so you always tank a bit passively. shield tank gets shield boost amplifiers which allows them to boost the amount of shield they get per capacitor unit.
next.
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Adril Alatar
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Posted - 2006.01.31 10:57:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Iberi 1 Armor tank is 20% better on resistance(in general). 2 Armor plating could be much more heavy. Do you count your slots? I do. 3 Armor repairing is cheaper on cap. Do you think about time to run tank? I do. 4 Passive shield tanking is good for PvE and 3 lvl missions(noobs area), but in PvP passive tanking just sucks is ost cases.
I am sure that shield tanking must be radically boosted to balance this game. Currently it is overpowered by armor.
its balanced....
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Wolverine PL
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Posted - 2006.01.31 12:24:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Asurix
Originally by: Iberi 1 Armor tank is 20% better on resistance(in general). 2 Armor plating could be much more heavy. Do you count your slots? I do. 3 Armor repairing is cheaper on cap. Do you think about time to run tank? I do. 4 Passive shield tanking is good for PvE and 3 lvl missions(noobs area), but in PvP passive tanking just sucks is ost cases.
I am sure that shield tanking must be radically boosted to balance this game. Currently it is overpowered by armor.
where have you been?
Shield tanking > Armor tanking. In armor tanking you have to sacrifice tank to get dmg mods etc. Shield tank reps alot faster so it's alot better at tanking high dps over a shorter time (Fleet combat ftw) Shield tanking can tank passively, and even if you don't you always get recharge rate and pdu's so you always tank a bit passively. shield tank gets shield boost amplifiers which allows them to boost the amount of shield they get per capacitor unit.
next.
Shield tankin is > Armor Did you try to take down raven? Thats why I thing that Large Shield Extenders have too low reqs. CCP has done it again.
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2006.01.31 12:45:00 -
[22]
ô1 Armor tank is 20% better on resistance(in general).ö But shield tankers have access to better resistance modules that require less skill training to use. 30% to all shield resistance is much better then 20% to all amour. Or with over 1 month of training amour is 25% to all.
"3 Armor repairing is cheaper on cap. Do you think about time to run tank? I do." I can hit 160 to 200HP/s depending on ship on my shields for 0 cap. So I donÆt agree with amour repairing being cheaper on cap. I can hardly get amour repairing to heal that much let alone for such little cap.
ö4 Passive shield tanking is good for PvE and 3 lvl missions(noobs area), but in PvP passive tanking just sucks is ost cases.ö Loads of people use passive tanking for level 4 missions and PvP. It works very well if you know how to do it. Some of the most deadly ships are passive tanks that can tank 1500dps and still deal good damage.
_________________________________________________ Nominate famous people in Eve who had an impact on you. |
Adril Alatar
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Posted - 2006.01.31 12:48:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Pottsey Some of the most deadly ships are passive tanks that can tank 1500dps and still deal good damage.
You are sure you mean 1500 dps? What fitting and what ship gives a 1500 dps passive tank?
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2006.01.31 12:59:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Pottsey on 31/01/2006 13:02:42 Yes I do mean 1500DPS well its between 1000 to 2000 depending on the situation if you solo or in a group (solo flying but friends in sector for gang bonuÆs) and which resistance is being hit. Vultures and EosÆs make great passive shield tanks.
As far as I can see both extenders and plates are balanced. So is amour V shield tanking. Both have different advantages and disadvantage and are not the same. ThatÆs how it should be, to many people think balance mean all tanking methods should be the same.
The only change I want to see are capital size plates and extenders.
EDIT: When I said lvl 4 mission I didnÆt just mean Command Ships. I have seen plenty of passive shield tank HACÆs and other ships do level 4 missions solo. _________________________________________________ Nominate famous people in Eve who had an impact on you. |
Jamius
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Posted - 2006.01.31 13:12:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Jamius on 31/01/2006 13:18:45 Like everything else the difference here, one way or the other, is probably much smaller than people make out.
However as an example, I use large ext II's and 1600mm plate II's on my BC, a Ferox and Prophecy. I have BC at level 5.
I have a scrambler and webber fitted on both ships. This is a requirement most of the time in the way I use them. Without giving you any more of my setup it works out that I do better slightly damage on the Ferox (as I can fit more damage mods with my 4 lows not needed for anything else) but have a far superior tank on the Prophecy with slightly less damage output.
The ships have their times and places but both of them have the same resistance per level increase, 1 is pure armor tank and 1 is pure shield tank and even with the suggested unfairness of shield ext II's over 1600mm plates the prophecy still has decent damage but a far superior tank (only 3 slots max available for Ferox tank but 6 on the prophecy).
It of course has a far greater reliance on cap than the ferox but then that's Amarr ships for you.
Swings and roundabouts - looking at this from the singular persepctive of fitting requirements is a little short-sighted and anyway - just get on with it. If you think a module is unfair then bloomin well learn to use it and give us all peace - if karma works then by the time such whiners can use this "superior" module CCP will have changed them and another module will be better :)
Oh and as for the passive tanking no good in PvP I beat a Ferox twice the other night in my mostly passive tank Caracal (uses a small shield booster II). The 1st time he actually drained all my cap with 2 med nosses and I still scraped the win. He had a totally active tank but admittedly much less time in game than me - still, his setup was not a bad one I can tell you that - both fights took place at under 20km. Oh and I've beaten a blaster thorax with a 1600mm plate too in said caracal - if I had a purely active setup I would have lost the fights both times.
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Denrace
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Posted - 2006.01.31 13:15:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Denrace on 31/01/2006 13:16:18 So? Caldari have little/no drone bays and sacrifice much-valued medium sots to tank. It is balanced very well imho.
________________________________________
I make Custom Sigs. |
Tiamat Kia
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Posted - 2006.01.31 13:22:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Iberi 1 Armor tank is 20% better on resistance(in general). 2 Armor plating could be much more heavy. Do you count your slots? I do. 3 Armor repairing is cheaper on cap. Do you think about time to run tank? I do. 4 Passive shield tanking is good for PvE and 3 lvl missions(noobs area), but in PvP passive tanking just sucks is ost cases.
I am sure that shield tanking must be radically boosted to balance this game. Currently it is overpowered by armor.
I agree in all Points.. using shield extender, large or whatever size only sux, coz sig gets too big and the expected (lol) advatage from the additional shield is effektive near useless. one shieldextender on the caracal =25% more taken dmg.. That does make any sence???? The cara survives without extender much longer.
And Wolverine, u coulndt compare plates and extender with grid/cpu.. all armortanked ships have much more Grid and less cpu then shieldtanked vessels. So from my point of view shield tank gets more useless.. like said bevore.. lower slot number, -20% akkumulativ resistences, better energy efficency AND the f*** 25 Sig Bonus(rofl) to Large Extender So every armortanker crys in the forum about passive reloadrate from shields.. I cant hear it any more. PEANUTS in compare to dmg I can take with this "advantage" and -1/3 more shieldhitpoints average, Look up the titans, there even all ppl can see the never-ending-story of uber armortank possibility. Check Caldary vs Amarr and you will see Shield only suxx. The passive reload rate is 2 Shield HP per sec and its the same like on the amarr titan. So compare all hitpoints.. U realy think shieldtank is uber????? Or lets look up the freighter.. the charon is a joke copared to the Providence in its defence Hitpoints.. and lol look up the shieldsize.. anybody agree this is uber??
Armor got 20% more Resistance and this and only this own the reloadrate of any shield.. Any if anybody should say "but shield recharges, armor doesnt" - Does it matter in any combat?? U have no time to use it as an realy advantage and i u got time to recharge u have time to repair too.. A Gist tanked Raven (about 2.2bio ISK in eqipment) tanks less good than an apoc with 2 large reppers and 3 hardeners (100mio Equipment)same in a Dominix. All armortanked ships could run endless 2 repper with 3 hardener,(compare boost/repair amount of shieldbooster and repper. A Raven does not match vs a Apoc. the apoc never get down below 80% Armor and the Raven is dead because u cant run more then a Large booster endlessly.. Do you think shieldtanking is uber? So _any_ Armortanker sees the truth?
---- There are things behind things |
Tiamat Kia
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Posted - 2006.01.31 14:03:00 -
[28]
Think about the math right.. show up the numbers.. I fly Raven 4 years.. I got perfekt Shield and supportskills and Im not a noob.. and if you check the dmg and the hp u become and its easy only use em and thermal hardener.. see behind.. I mean things overall..
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Adril Alatar
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Posted - 2006.01.31 14:24:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Tiamat Kia All armortanked ships could run endless 2 repper with 3 hardener,(compare boost/repair amount of shieldbooster and repper.
wtb: BS that could run 2 repper and 3 hardeners endless....
or do you mean 2 medium repper?
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Tiamat Kia
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Posted - 2006.01.31 14:24:00 -
[30]
what ive 4 gotten.. its so anoying to hear that.. under 20km no ew and so on.. ist easy to fight an apoc to their weaks And if u read my post correctly u should see that Im a Raven Pilot too.. I test it all with T1 fitting with a m8 whi is perfect at apoc.. u can do it with noobs too its all about percentages. |
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