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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
566
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Posted - 2013.10.08 10:54:00 -
[31] - Quote
Taoist Dragon wrote:KeeganWaffle wrote:From a PvP perspective it seams like there's no room for them anymore.
They have less DPS then blasters at point blank.
They have less DPS at medium ranges then scorch.
I think the whole "blasters track better" thing needs to be moved over to auto-cannons. LOL Lets compare the worst case scenarios for a weapon system then complain that they are crap eh? Good logic there. Don.'t think about their lack of cap requirement or damage selection or rediculasly low fitting requirements or their looooooong falloffs or anything.... just pick on their couple of weakness and summize they are worthless.....I do hope you don't do company analysis for a living.
I dont agree that AC do not have apoint, but your points are not so strong. Large falloff? yes but at the cost of basically ZERO range.
Check Large AC for example. they deal LESS damage than large blasters up to 24 km.. (edge of poitn range). So at least on the large scale they are VERY weak damage projection unless on a ship with falloff bonus (machariel).
The damage selection that so many talk about is.. lol just an excuse. When was last time you stopped to change ammo durign a fight? Rare times you can recover from the time loading the ammo. So the damage selection helps, but its nto a magical tool that allows you to exploit always the resit hole on the other ship.
At end, AC role is being less bad than the other 2 at their weak spots. Close range with mobility they defeat pulses, long range they can defeat blasters (altough on the large guns that is meaningless because you need to go out of point range to have such scenario, but it is still a valid advantage on the medium guns)
Their low fittings are not so low when you consider minamtar ships (with exceptoin on maelstrom) have less fittigns thatn equivalent turret ships from other races. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
566
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Posted - 2013.10.08 10:56:00 -
[32] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Goldensaver wrote:KeeganWaffle wrote:From a PvP perspective it seams like there's no room for them anymore.
They have less DPS then blasters at point blank.
They have less DPS at medium ranges then scorch.
I think the whole "blasters track better" thing needs to be moved over to auto-cannons. Gotta say, I really appreciate that he's at least honest and says "Scorch", as opposed to "Lasers". Scorch need to be nerfed to the ground Maybe then amarr laser boats can be properly balanced. Care to explain why Scorch needs a nerf? They are the only ammo that pushes short range gun's optimal range to reasonable distances... they pay for it in limited damage types, heavier cap use, and the worst tracking out of all 3 short range guns. I'm not seeing why they need to nerfed. Scorch needs to be nerfed so that amarr ships can be buffed. Pretty sick of all amarr lasers boats only being used "because scorch" Same applies to all t2 ammo, t2 ammo is supposed to be niche ****, not your god damn go too.
nope.. t2 ammo was suppose dto be main ammo for pvp. WHen they cheapened faction ammo by putting it at LP store that peopel ran for that option). But several years ago was t2 or go home. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1491
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Posted - 2013.10.08 11:27:00 -
[33] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote: nope.. t2 ammo was suppose dto be main ammo for pvp. WHen they cheapened faction ammo by putting it at LP store that peopel ran for that option). But several years ago was t2 or go home.
It was not, it was supposed to be ammo with a big strength and a big weakness that the ships could compensate for their lack of range or dps with using in special situations
Also to that other guy i don't quite understand how you made that graph... My graphs all show null having more damage and more tracking than barrage. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
104
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Posted - 2013.10.08 11:51:00 -
[34] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Also to that other guy i don't quite understand how you made that graph... My graphs all show null having more damage and more tracking than barrage.
Use Pyfa. Take a hull that is not bonused for either (an amarrian frigate will do), make two copies, fill one with an AC, the other with a neutron and then put them in a graph. The numbers set are for an AB frigate target with a web applied.
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Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
431
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Posted - 2013.10.08 12:08:00 -
[35] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:At end, AC role is being less bad than the other 2 at their weak spots. Close range with mobility they defeat pulses, long range they can defeat blasters (altough on the large guns that is meaningless because you need to go out of point range to have such scenario, but it is still a valid advantage on the medium guns)
Jack of all trades, master of none. Versatility is the name of the minmatar game since like forever, there must be sacrifices for that. ACs are balanced, though some of the hulls should be looked at. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1267
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Posted - 2013.10.08 14:34:00 -
[36] - Quote
To mare wrote:yes all the people that dont use AC are pleased with them
No, you were used to play with autocanons that were better than blasters at blasters job. Autocanons ships are not meant to play at optimal but in falloff, and as the pretty graphic shows you, those are better than blasters for a reason: minmatar are a speedy/kiting race, not a brick brawl in tha face one. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1267
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 14:35:00 -
[37] - Quote
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:[ACs are balanced, though some of the hulls should be looked at.
This I can agree, indeed. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Alaric Faelen
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
171
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Posted - 2013.10.08 17:46:00 -
[38] - Quote
Been well said already but can be summed up as -EFT warrioring is for amateurs. Just cooking up a fitting to spit out the highest numbers is rarely going to translate into a useful ship.
There is an amazing amount of thought that goes into ship/module design and balance, and literally none that goes into comparing two numbers on EFT. |
Taoist Dragon
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
623
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 14:00:00 -
[39] - Quote
I pretty much fly amarr / minnie ships nowadays and can honestly say that weapons systems are probably the most balanced they have every been. And I have been playing since eve was released.( Bloody hell I probably need a break.) ( And no it wasn't one this toon before all you forum tossers start bleeting on about the age of Taoist!)
I have also started using small/medium beams instead of pulse w/scorch as beams actually give me way more flexibility and if you don't fall into the trap of plating the heck out of the amarr ships they can still be agile enough for most applications.
As for engaging null/blasters with my autos. easily.....at the edge of null range (approx 7-8km) I'll still hit way more consistently as my effective range (optimal + falloff) is often 10-11km+). But then again if I know I'm gonna go against blasters I often just shut them down with a boosted nuet or such. That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
Urkhan Law
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
22
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Posted - 2013.10.09 14:10:00 -
[40] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:and as the pretty graphic shows you, those are better than blasters for a reason: minmatar are a speedy/kiting race, not a brick brawl in tha face one. Then why the brick brawl frigates have less mass than the speed kiting race? Or why do you need a TD to have a better chance to win the fight in that falloff scenario? Things are much better at a frigate level for sure, but they aren't perfect and never will be. "But they are looking into it and will do changes in case it's necessary."
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Valleria Darkmoon
Heretic Army Heretic Initiative
132
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Posted - 2013.10.10 10:22:00 -
[41] - Quote
Taoist Dragon wrote:I have also started using small/medium beams instead of pulse w/scorch as beams actually give me way more flexibility and if you don't fall into the trap of plating the heck out of the amarr ships they can still be agile enough for most applications.
Wow, never thought I'd see someone who'd agree with me on that...which is why I rarely mention it.
I've been using beams/rails/arty for a little while now and long range weapons in general at least on small size guns pretty much from the first set of T1 frigate balance passes. My first experiment was a beam tormentor, it failed...but the beam executioner performed much better. In fact now some of my rail/beam/arty fits can track where my old scorch slicer could not and I can generally do it better with a beefier fit as well. |
Psichotic
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
22
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Posted - 2013.10.12 18:38:00 -
[42] - Quote
ACs have always been much more difficult to use (in the real world). Training them so you can put them on the very limited number of ships on which they are still useable a huge waste of time.
It used to be that Min was considered by many to be too powerful. Those were people who were not capable of flying them and didn't want to learn. Min takes MUCH more skill to fit and fly, so if you were interested in PvP the best way to learn was to become proficient at Min ships and weapons. When I started flying other races I found it to be comparatively easy. Now there is no point in flying Min so that is no longer a good way to train for the other races.
ACs themselves are still useful, but only on a very limited number of ships, and only if you fly those ships in very particular ways. It takes a lot of practice to fly with ACs on other races b/c you don't get the bonuses and those ships weren't meant to be flown that way.
Forget ACs and forget Minmitar. You'll be a much happier capsuleer.
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Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
390
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Posted - 2013.10.13 11:05:00 -
[43] - Quote
Psichotic wrote:ACs have always been much more difficult to use (in the real world). Training them so you can put them on the very limited number of ships on which they are still useable a huge waste of time.
It used to be that Min was considered by many to be too powerful. Those were people who were not capable of flying them and didn't want to learn. Min takes MUCH more skill to fit and fly, so if you were interested in PvP the best way to learn was to become proficient at Min ships and weapons. When I started flying other races I found it to be comparatively easy. Now there is no point in flying Min so that is no longer a good way to train for the other races.
ACs themselves are still useful, but only on a very limited number of ships, and only if you fly those ships in very particular ways. It takes a lot of practice to fly with ACs on other races b/c you don't get the bonuses and those ships weren't meant to be flown that way.
Forget ACs and forget Minmitar. You'll be a much happier capsuleer.
Minmatar ships were so hard to fly that everyone and their dogs were flying them ; two years ago I've been refused from fleets because I hadn't a minmatar ship.
Yet AC haven't been nerfed except with the TE nerf. The only problem of AC can be neutron blasters with null ammo which might have been overbuffed, but otherwise you can't have everything. Minamatar ship are the fastest, and AC don't use cap and are the most versatile weapons. But yes, it takes a bit of knowledge and practice to use them effectively and you won't outbrawl a blaster ship, as expected. |
To mare
Advanced Technology
266
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Posted - 2013.10.13 11:15:00 -
[44] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Psichotic wrote:ACs have always been much more difficult to use (in the real world). Training them so you can put them on the very limited number of ships on which they are still useable a huge waste of time.
It used to be that Min was considered by many to be too powerful. Those were people who were not capable of flying them and didn't want to learn. Min takes MUCH more skill to fit and fly, so if you were interested in PvP the best way to learn was to become proficient at Min ships and weapons. When I started flying other races I found it to be comparatively easy. Now there is no point in flying Min so that is no longer a good way to train for the other races.
ACs themselves are still useful, but only on a very limited number of ships, and only if you fly those ships in very particular ways. It takes a lot of practice to fly with ACs on other races b/c you don't get the bonuses and those ships weren't meant to be flown that way.
Forget ACs and forget Minmitar. You'll be a much happier capsuleer.
Minmatar ships were so hard to fly that everyone and their dogs were flying them ; two years ago I've been refused from fleets because I hadn't a minmatar ship. Yet AC haven't been nerfed except with the TE nerf. The only problem of AC can be neutron blasters with null ammo which might have been overbuffed, but otherwise you can't have everything. Minamatar ship are the fastest, and AC don't use cap and are the most versatile weapons. But yes, it takes a bit of knowledge and practice to use them effectively and you won't outbrawl a blaster ship, as expected. blaster and especially null buffs made ACs obsolete. TE nerf just closed the deal to make AC not worthy anymore for me |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1272
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 12:03:00 -
[45] - Quote
Psichotic wrote:Forget ACs and forget Minmitar. You'll be a much happier capsuleer.
The more people will believe this the more will be flying something else, those knowing how ACs work and how to fit their ships will get more fun.
ACs are awesome, arty still way "waw" factor, you guys just don't want to learn how to fly them or were used to be a pownmachine 1vs 5 and kill them all. It's good other weapon systems became useful and ships good enough to make things challenging. Fly them all and tell us more about ACs being bad.
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
630
|
Posted - 2013.10.13 13:25:00 -
[46] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Goldensaver wrote:KeeganWaffle wrote:From a PvP perspective it seams like there's no room for them anymore.
They have less DPS then blasters at point blank.
They have less DPS at medium ranges then scorch.
I think the whole "blasters track better" thing needs to be moved over to auto-cannons. Gotta say, I really appreciate that he's at least honest and says "Scorch", as opposed to "Lasers". Scorch need to be nerfed to the ground Maybe then amarr laser boats can be properly balanced. Care to explain why Scorch needs a nerf? They are the only ammo that pushes short range gun's optimal range to reasonable distances... they pay for it in limited damage types, heavier cap use, and the worst tracking out of all 3 short range guns. I'm not seeing why they need to nerfed. Scorch needs to be nerfed so that amarr ships can be buffed.
Pretty sick of all amarr lasers boats only being used "because scorch"Same applies to all t2 ammo, t2 ammo is supposed to be niche ****, not your god damn go too.
This. I really want to get to a point where more than one crystal is used with any regularity (ok, two if you want to count Conflag for station bashing). Basing an entire line of weapon systems on one crystal is backwards, and needs corrections.
~Z There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly |
Blodhgarm Dethahal
Transcendent Sedition Dustm3n
42
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Posted - 2013.10.13 13:58:00 -
[47] - Quote
If you really can't think of any Amarr ship that doesn't rely completely on Scorch then you don't know how to use Amarr's full potential.
See.. Punsiher.. excelent for brawling Tormentor.. also good brawling ship Maller.. good brawling as well.. not a bad bait too Navy Augoror.. has great staying power and solid DPS in addition to 2 utility highs! Harbinger.. you could shield tank it and kite but really? a good frontline fit for this works well Navy Harbinger.. also a good frontline fighter.. fun to dual web frigs and blap them with Conflag because of the tracking bonus Apoc/Navy Apoc/Navy Geddon.. all good ships to supply supplemental DPS to a small Gang w/o Scorch
Scorch is far from Amarr's only ammo type, there are plenty more ships that can use other ammos effectively. -Bl+¦d
Transcendent Sedition is recruiting! Join "TSED Recruitment" chat ingame to talk to us if you are interested in Wormhole life! |
Goldensaver
Personal Defense LtD.
255
|
Posted - 2013.10.14 02:13:00 -
[48] - Quote
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:If you really can't think of any Amarr ship that doesn't rely completely on Scorch then you don't know how to use Amarr's full potential.
See.. Punsiher.. excelent for brawling Tormentor.. also good brawling ship Maller.. good brawling as well.. not a bad bait too Navy Augoror.. has great staying power and solid DPS in addition to 2 utility highs! Harbinger.. you could shield tank it and kite but really? a good frontline fit for this works well Navy Harbinger.. also a good frontline fighter.. fun to dual web frigs and blap them with Conflag because of the tracking bonus Apoc/Navy Apoc/Navy Geddon.. all good ships to supply supplemental DPS to a small Gang w/o Scorch
Scorch is far from Amarr's only ammo type, there are plenty more ships that can use other ammos effectively. Punisher: Is slow and has only 2 mids, meaning no range control. It relies on Scorch to save its ass from anything that tries to scram-kite, and relies on Scorch to apply damage to other true brawlers (that have higher tracking and DPS at close range while having sufficient tank to survive to that point) before they get in close and close the deal.
Tormentor: Oh lawdy, a 3rd mid! Still is slow in comparison to most other Frigates, and relies on Scorch to save it from anything that doens't want to hump it. Can also be flown frequently as a heavy scram kiter. It is doable without Scorch, but you'd be better off with any other true brawler.
Maller: See Punisher. Uses Scorch to chase off kiters (out to around warp disruptor range) and to apply damage to other, higher damage, better tracking brawlers.
Navy Augoror: Okay, I'll agree. It's just frakking awesome. But Scorch isn't to be scoffed at at all.
Harbinger: See Maller, Punisher. Really, bricks with range control and only moderate DPS/tracking are absolutely reliant on establishing early advantage to others with better damage and application in their preferred ranges. It also has enough mids for full tackle and a cap booster! Wow, now we don't have to decide between application and crippling capacitor issues or capacitor security and inability to apply damage.
Navy Harbinger: The Phantasm 2.0. Can't disagree here, finally some tracking to compete with other brawl boats, and FRAKKING MID SLOTS!
Apoc/Napoc: ... Have you ever heard of Foxcats? Also, 100km Pulse Lasers with great tracking for the DPS they are applying at that range is great.
Navy Geddon: For use as a facemelter, keep at 20km with lower transversal, load conflag, melt face. |
Taoist Dragon
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
630
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Posted - 2013.10.14 03:53:00 -
[49] - Quote
Goldensaver wrote:Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:If you really can't think of any Amarr ship that doesn't rely completely on Scorch then you don't know how to use Amarr's full potential.
See.. Punsiher.. excelent for brawling Tormentor.. also good brawling ship Maller.. good brawling as well.. not a bad bait too Navy Augoror.. has great staying power and solid DPS in addition to 2 utility highs! Harbinger.. you could shield tank it and kite but really? a good frontline fit for this works well Navy Harbinger.. also a good frontline fighter.. fun to dual web frigs and blap them with Conflag because of the tracking bonus Apoc/Navy Apoc/Navy Geddon.. all good ships to supply supplemental DPS to a small Gang w/o Scorch
Scorch is far from Amarr's only ammo type, there are plenty more ships that can use other ammos effectively. Punisher: Is slow and has only 2 mids, meaning no range control. It relies on Scorch to save its ass from anything that tries to scram-kite, and relies on Scorch to apply damage to other true brawlers (that have higher tracking and DPS at close range while having sufficient tank to survive to that point) before they get in close and close the deal. Tormentor: Oh lawdy, a 3rd mid! Still is slow in comparison to most other Frigates, and relies on Scorch to save it from anything that doens't want to hump it. Can also be flown frequently as a heavy scram kiter. It is doable without Scorch, but you'd be better off with any other true brawler. Maller: See Punisher. Uses Scorch to chase off kiters (out to around warp disruptor range) and to apply damage to other, higher damage, better tracking brawlers. Navy Augoror: Okay, I'll agree. It's just frakking awesome. But Scorch isn't to be scoffed at at all. Harbinger: See Maller, Punisher. Really, bricks with range control and only moderate DPS/tracking are absolutely reliant on establishing early advantage to others with better damage and application in their preferred ranges. It also has enough mids for full tackle and a cap booster! Wow, now we don't have to decide between application and crippling capacitor issues or capacitor security and inability to apply damage. Navy Harbinger: The Phantasm 2.0. Can't disagree here, finally some tracking to compete with other brawl boats, and FRAKKING MID SLOTS! Apoc/Napoc: ... Have you ever heard of Foxcats? Also, 100km Pulse Lasers with great tracking for the DPS they are applying at that range is great. Navy Geddon: For use as a facemelter, keep at 20km with lower transversal, load conflag, melt face.
Another person who fails to think outside the box and can only see amarr being able to do one thing badly.......hmmm
.....
Nah can't be bothered to point some glaringly obvious mistakes in this post. I've said them too many time now to GAF if people just want to believe **** without actually thinking for themselves....ah well. That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
156
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Posted - 2013.10.14 13:05:00 -
[50] - Quote
Amarr ships (generally) can't dictate range. They'll be fighting at whatever range the other pilot wants to fight. This is compensated by range.
Minmatar ships (generally) can always dictate range. This is compensated by their guns being more dependent on range. This means, as a minmatar pilot, you'll need to look at the weapons that the other pilot is flying. If he's using blasters, keep your distance, if he's using lasers, go in close and out track him. If he's in an armor ship, load fusion. If he's in a shield ship, load EMP. You need to use your flexibility to win.
P.S.: Your ammo type should be loaded before the first shot is fired. If you need to swap out mid combat you were doing something wrong (or you were baited) |
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