before Goonswarm Federation started Gallente Ice Interdiction, i bought 25million units of oxygen isotopes at 440 isk/unit (11bil isk invested). I then sold those oxytopes at 1200 isk/unit (30bil isk returned).

Their wealth comes from other means and they are going to wreck you for laughs, not for profit.

You understand that these two statements conflict right?

No, because I made my wealth on economic speculation caused by the "market gurus" making a massive run on oxygen isotopes. At the point I sold my oxygen isotopes we'd probably only ganked a handful of ships.

Market manipulation is not equal to high sec ganking.

You understand that these two statements conflict right?

So, lets dig in to your example a bit. How many hours did you spend ganking? Did you find it difficult or easy? The rewards in your case were 20 billion ISK. So if it was just moderately difficult or you spent less than say 200 hours, that would seem imbalanced, right?

The ganking is all you had to do in order to make those profits.

I haven't read the rest of this thread but essentially all you are doing is cutting poor pilots out of ganking.

Let me put it to you this way: before Goonswarm Federation started Gallente Ice Interdiction, i bought 25million units of oxygen isotopes at 440 isk/unit (11bil isk invested). I then sold those oxytopes at 1200 isk/unit (30bil isk returned).

I have enough isk to suicide gank for years. Concord insurance makes no impact on my choice to kill your stuff. Most "professional" suicide gankers have similar stories. Their wealth comes from other means and they are going to wreck you for laughs, not for profit. So changing the insurance policy makes no difference to them and they are probably the largest portion of suicide gankers.

So who does removing insurance hurt?

Scenario 1: The clueless newbie. At one point in our eve careers we were all this guy. I'm sure we all have stories about how we were blown up in empire by concord with no idea what we did wrong. Sometime back in 2007 when I first started, I was repping some corpmate doing missions in my Exqueror, a salvager/loot stealer came in, my corpmate did something to him, and concord blew up my corpmate and my exequeror. I have no idea what I did, thinking back it was probably because I'd assigned my drones to the corpmate.

Regardless, my clueless corpmate and I doing L4 missions died to Concord for no other reason than being bothered by a buzzard in a mission. No insurance payout in the world you are proposing for the reason of being helplessly new at the game. Let's not ignore all the Concord executions that occur during Empire Incursions. Some of those are pure accidents. No insurance payouts there?

Scenario 2: The guy wanting to try something new. In your adolescent phase of Eve Online, you are still trying to figure out who you want to be. A miner? A mission runner? A 0.0 bitter political arm-chair general? A low-sec pirate? An NPC 0.0 pirate? A mercenary corp? An empire war-dec corp? An inventory, production, market, or logistics services? A scammer? A ganker? Most of us have tried several roles and the biggest barriers to entry are the initial capital cost. You don't leap into moon mining or capital ship production because they cost billions of isk in start-up capital. Instead you stick to areas that are cheap to get into with minimal losses if you find you don't like it.

Your proposed changes would essential create a barrier of entry for trying out empire ganking. Empire ganking would become the province of the individually wealthy, the elite, those for whom price is no object. The poor huddled masses will be excluded from trying out this hilariously fun past-time because you've introduced a barrier of entry to keep them from even trying out the sport. How very Republican of you. Let's watch Fox News together while clubbing baby seals.

So for the tldr crowd: your proposed changes make no difference to the truly dedicated crowd while hurting a lot more people than your intent.

No, it wasn't.

Goonswarm Federation ANNOUNCING they were going to do the ganking is all it took to make those profits. I made those profits before we did much of anything. So how much time did it take?

What, 10 minutes to log in, move isk, buy oxytopes, relist and log out? Yep, about 10 minutes to make 20billion.

The Mittani making an alliance update that was leaked to k*g*utsumen.com and to these forums caused a massive run on oxygen isotopes that occurred before the operation truly began.

That's why I'm making the point that market manipulation is not equal to highsec ganking. We could have announced the operation, done NOTHING, and I still would have made the same profit.

Regardless, none of this has any relevance at all to my initial points here:

Turns out I'm actually earning NEGATIVE income per hour.

[snip the blah blah blah]

Is this just a strategic whine thread from miners who want to force professional gankers to go after haulers instead?

Why don't people just take responsibility for properly fitting and flying their ships? If they did then suicide ganking would probably drop by 80%. All the so called fixes I've seen are exploitable and in the long run would solve nothing. Basically most of the fixes proposed are trying to protect failbears who don't want to take the initative and harden themselves against ganks.

Why not hold criminals responsible for their actions?

I swear, EVE would be a great game for Republicans, the way everyone blames the victim around here and lets criminals do whatever they want...

GG*then again, the miners rather need that subsidy.

Originally, I was completely for not paying out insurance to someone who goes GCC and commits a crime. That seems like a no brainer.. However, upon reading more, why should a pirate in low sec who gets ambushed by other pirates get paid out? Why should I say, a SB in null get paid out when he makes a mistake and gets blown up by a ratting drake (ahem, terrible mistake on my part.)

Remove insurance completely. It's not needed. Or work out a system for insurance on rookie players or something, just to help keep a new player base.

[quote=Gritz1]Scrap insurance, reduce build minerals required by some percentage.

Why not hold criminals responsible for their actions?

I swear, EVE would be a great game for Republicans, the way everyone blames the victim around here and lets criminals do whatever they want...

Ok so I just read through this thread... It tells me this.

1, There seemed to be no real objection to the sensible removal of insurance from concorded ships. The few good points being oh its a noob, or its someone starting out ganking.. well meh this IS EVE some lessons are hard learned. Noobs have the pop up for protection, and a newbie ganker... lol

2, The gankers whined more than the miners in this thread.

Removing the insurance payout reduces the possible return on investment. No good business person likes to see that happen.

ok so let's see if u can come up with a tanked fit that doesn't get solo'd by a lone goon standard gank fitted alpha pest the following ships

1. Retreiver
2. Covetor
3. Mackinaw
4. Hulk

So see if u can make a gank proof mining barge/exumer fit for all 4 ships

You just don't get it do you, you are a minority. The game is a dark, risky game, but the majoity of the player base are carebears without which YOU DON'T HAVE A GAME TO PLAY.

Now read the next bit carefully: The game needs to be a challenge and mustn't spoon feed the players, but neither must it drive them away.

You say the game isn't like other games, but it isn't unique. There have been much tougher PvP games than Eve, with true open world PvP, but they all die a slow and painful death as a game needs to be financially viable and in a PvP game someone has to lose. By having a lot of carebears, the number that lose is a small percentage of the player base. If they all left you wouldn't have a game to play, yet you would have got exactly what you asked for. It is the people like you that destroy the game you like so much, as you are incapable of seeing the game for what it is, outside of your avatar's blinkered perception of the game.

Yeah, get rid of insurance entirely.

[quote=Hauling Hal]

I know it sounds cliche but the most important skill in eve is adaptation. Those who find clever ways to survive earned it and deserve it. Right now there are probably multiple miners who understand this and are making a grip load as we speak. Those who are too lazy to invest effort and common sense into staying alive but instead come screaming to the forums to nerf somebody else's gameplay only serves as a bad example and an unfortunate trend.

I doubt your claim that there are miners you are actually making profit. If you are still mining (in high sec), you are doing it wrong. If you are mining in wh or null, well I have no idea how the payout is, but I guess you are still doing it wrong without a bot. And with a bot you are doing it still wrong.

Market for raw materials is simply ****** up duo afk mining.

No matter how much you think it is, this game is not dependent upon any individual demographic of game play to survive. I have nothing against the common care bear! A lot of the most successful industrialists and traders are alts of gankers and PvPer's. What we DO need in eve is player driven content. We need individuals competent enough to survive in the modern universe with the tools provided in game.

I know it sounds cliche but the most important skill in eve is adaptation. Those who find clever ways to survive earned it and deserve it. Right now there are probably multiple miners who understand this and are making a grip load as we speak. Those who are too lazy to invest effort and common sense into staying alive but instead come screaming to the forums to nerf somebody else's gameplay only serves as a bad example and an unfortunate trend.

Now to my last point. It is absolutely necessary to drive some players out of the game. Eve is not meant for everybody and might not ever be. By driving the most sensitive or ******** people out of the game we preserve a higher community IQ. I would much rather have 1000 pilots capable of common sense and a level head than 10,000 pilots who kamikaze into gate camps then whine on the forums en masse about how bubbles are OP and they need to be nerfed. Even though 10,000 subscriptions is a lot more money than 1000 you will never make those 10,000 mentally handicapped pilots happy and they don't appreciate eve for what it is and would eventually leave for the next MMO.

TL;DR Adapt or GTFO