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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 30 post(s) |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
485
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:26:00 -
[2581] - Quote
Kaeden Dourhand wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:its PVP GAME!!!
What you want is IRRELEVANT regarding that. Sure you can try to balance ships for PVE, but not at the cost of makign them USELES for PVP I heard that if you use more exclamation marks and more capitals your message gets across better and people are more inclined to agree with you.
Might soudn strange, but it does work. Communication is better understood that way, you know.. exclamation amrks exist for a reason in almost all languages... |
Kasuko Merin
Ravenworks Industrial
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:35:00 -
[2582] - Quote
Sssooo they have all kinds of bonuses to make them work better at range and be better at getting to that range...
...and a web bonus that can only be applied if you're at short range. Dafuq is with the scattershot bonuses? |
King Rothgar
Path of the Fallen
360
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:36:00 -
[2583] - Quote
Late comer to this thread (been inactive for a while) but these proposed changes look good to me. I still don't see any PvP use for the paladin but the Vargur and Golem should be fairly monstrous if you're willing to spend the isk.
PvE wise, they should all be usable. I see the greatly enhanced tank making them a viable solo lvl5 option. The Vargur can already pull it off but these changes should allow the others to as well. Also, I happen to be a fan of the web bonus on the Paladin, it's very handy.
The MJD bonus is an interesting choice but honestly it feels more like a desperate attempt to make that module useful rather than an attempt at sensible bonuses for the ship. It doesn't serve a PvE purpose and for PvP, you wouldn't take a ship like this into a 50+ man fleet where such a device might be handy. Marauders are a squad level ship at most due to price and RR concerns. In such smaller gangs, you will be scrambled thus making the WJD useless. The Troll is trolling. |
Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
337
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:36:00 -
[2584] - Quote
this is funny as hell.
for years gallente pilots have griped about having the rep bonus vs the amarr resist bonus. (not taking sides, just pointing out).
now, atleast for marauder pilots, that has been fixed. i pointed out in my other post that the tank just skyrocketed and folks are griping because they dont get rep bonuses.
ok, so u can heal 39% better. with these resists, you take less damage than you would have needed to rep in the first place. therefore, your point is moot. its even to the point of being silly because when cap runs out with normal resists, you get smoked. now, atleast you can keep resisting and taking less damage than normal. you will even be able to get away if needed and not be scattered all over space because you wouldnt have to rep as much and you would still have cap.
an easy tank on the paladin as i pointed out, is 161k omni in your worst resist (thermal). 225k in your best. thats armor..i dont look at EHP. EHP takes into account hull and shield. i care less about shields and i dont fight in hull. i am going to tank my armor as best as i can and fight there. with these changes, we gain tons of points in our armor...means we can stay longer and kick more butt.
as pointed out, we could tank angel extravaganza all day. imagine that, on stock resists. what do we do with the other 7 low slots?
these resists are a good thing. being an amarr ship lover and embrasing everything resistance based, these are a blessing. my sac tanks like a beast and now we have a bs that can do better due to bastion mode and having tons more armor to start with? whats the problem? we have t2 resistance people! we need less tank for the same effect. THEN we pimp it with bastion mode and have god like tank. t2 resists, double repping in bastion mode, 1 LAR II and 1 LAAR together means they will have a helluva time breakin your tank. 1 LAAR give more than double rep anyway, now you are going to double that in beast mode.
wow.
|
Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate
269
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:37:00 -
[2585] - Quote
Second iteration on balancing just terrible. They are now worse than they are currently in game in return for the benefit of Bastion.
Initial attempt was much better and at least a reasonable basis for further work.
As you appear to be scratching around for what to with them just keep it simple and just remove the original anti-PvP nerfs to them (fix grid, sensor strength and scan res) and move on to something else for now.
Fear God and Thread Nought |
Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:39:00 -
[2586] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
Now thigns are better.. Eve is a PVP GAME, all ships that bear weapons should be PVP ships as much as possible.
It is a sandbox, and by that right I can say F*U to your PVP. I don't think asking for one solid, dedicated PVE ship in the hordes of PVP ships out there. its PVP GAME!!! What you want is IRRELEVANT regarding that. Sure you can try to balance ships for PVE, but not at the cost of makign them USELES for PVP
Mining Barges and Industrials are even more useless for PVP :O Better get rid of them immedietly |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
247
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:40:00 -
[2587] - Quote
Quote:Btw a cruise golem fleet will kill anything while tanking like BOSS!!
Shhhhh... or they will nerf it. New CQ prototype |
Kirluin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:45:00 -
[2588] - Quote
I think adding an all new gameplay style is a good thing. I find PVE to be pretty boring, so adding combat time choices like mjd/bastion mode is a welcome change from the mindless [cookie cutter fit vs rat] -> [target] -> [f1] -> goto 0. My Navy Geddon already does that pretty well.
That being said I like the original bastion mode better... it was truly a Stand and Deliver kind of option. Good for many but not all roles with room to imagine new devilry. Now its more of a "sniper with one foot nailed to the floor" mode, with fewer interesting fit tradeoffs.
Meh.
p.s. can we have a drone focussed one of these? Yes, I'm a Homeworld 2 freak looking for more drone action. |
Nosum Hseebnrido
Beyond Hypothetical Box
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:46:00 -
[2589] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck,
I play this game for 7 years now "7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level" is a dumbest bonus in this entire game. I was finally happy that you decide to remove it from Kronos and Palladin with were NEVER use stasis webifier at all, because it's just pointless to use them with large turret. It's better to fit Tracking Computers instead, but CCP say "noo, it's wonderful bonus, let's give it to all Marauders, they deserve for it".
Undone this change and get rid of this ridiculous bonus once for all .. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
171
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:48:00 -
[2590] - Quote
I think we need to see some Marauder animations. Some REAL ones this time... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
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Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
338
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:50:00 -
[2591] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote:Late comer to this thread (been inactive for a while) but these proposed changes look good to me. I still don't see any PvP use for the paladin but the Vargur and Golem should be fairly monstrous if you're willing to spend the isk.
PvE wise, they should all be usable. I see the greatly enhanced tank making them a viable solo lvl5 option. The Vargur can already pull it off but these changes should allow the others to as well. I admit I will miss the web bonus on the Paladin, it is very handy and currently the only thing it has going for it over a navy geddon.
The MJD bonus is an interesting choice but honestly it feels more like a desperate attempt to make that module useful rather than an attempt at sensible bonuses for the ship. It doesn't serve a PvE purpose and for PvP, you wouldn't take a ship like this into a 50+ man fleet where such a device might be handy. Marauders are a squad level ship at most due to price and RR concerns. In such smaller gangs, you will be scrambled thus making the WJD useless.
the mjd is the best thing since sliced bread for pve.
warp in to a sanctum at 50km, mjd up 100k. now, when folks warp to the sanctum u are at, they are way below you. unleash drone hell from a snake or domi.
plexs in null require room to room. go in, jump up out of range, send missiles or sentry drone lubbin from up on perch out of range of their guns. if they get close, scoup to drone bay, mjd again. if you angle it right, you dont have to travel a bit..just jump up, then back down to gate.
i ran lev 5's with a cnr and an mjd. cruise from 125k, very little resistance/tank needed (because i wasnt there). the neut hurt, but i dealt with it.
use mjd to jump to the sleiper rats in worm holes. once you get your anchor, warp to him, then jump 100km and bypass the frigs and cruisers and jump strait in the lap of the bs's. exploit their lack of tracking by webbing and orbiting the bs out of bastion mode.
most people only see 2d. some see in the 3rd dimension. me, i see in 4d. i can see (and have used) the mjd for all kinds of purposes.
pvp.. i warped to the gate at 50k from my pos. i dropped my sentries then mjd'ed through the gate and was at 50k on the other side. thats torp range for my rattlesnake. when bad guys came in, they see juicy and came after me. i started blasting them with drones from behind em and shot torps. when more showed up. i aligned to the gate (which my pos was on the other side) and i hit "return to drone bay". sentries got ready to be scooped. i hit mjd which put me full throttle. i jumped (because i was pointed and they started in on my tank) and landed on my drones (which auto scooped) and i hit warp to pos. it all happened in 2 seconds. jump, scoop, warp to safety. the snake was beat up a little, but once shields charged, you couldnt tell.
be imaginitivy. you can use these for alot of reasons. gate camping. drones sit still and you just jump around within range and keep killin.
you can stay 100k off the gate in a random direction. if someone comes in you wanna tackle, then jump on em. if not, you have time to get away...
|
Unseen Spectre
Shadow Eye Ops
37
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:55:00 -
[2592] - Quote
I just did a quick comparison of my PVE Golem setup for missions and the proposed changes to the Golem. The current setup involves a cap stable permaboost to shields and cruise missiles. Discounting drones, the dps is the same and the tank is actually better. However, for some reason, CCP has decided to nerf the cap recharge on the Golem so it is no longer cap stable. This can be solved by upgrading the rigs to T2s and it will be cap stable again. From my personal style of play, I can only say that I can only say that with high probability the web bonus is useless and I will never use it. The ship is simply too slow, and in terms of tank it is too costly to make it mobile. The bastion module, however, is more useful for me since I ussually bombard the mission rats from long range and remain quite immobile for the most. I know that my perspective is limited to PVE and that the web bonus quite definitely have good application in PVP (but I still think the ship is too slow), but personally I would like to see a more useful bonus such as the shield boost. Furthermore, I do not think that the HP nerf is warranted, but that is just my opnion. Either way, it will be impossible to satisfy everyone, but there is still a long way to go, so we will have to see what we end up with. I hope that CCP will re-think the ships to make the bonuses more coherent instead of contradictionary such as short range web vs. slow ship (increase web range???). However, there is quite some time for CCP to re-think this several times before the Winter expasion :). |
Otto Weston
Dark Ball of Fire
29
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:56:00 -
[2593] - Quote
CCP - WHY?!?
You make a good module to make a ship worth playing, to make it sound fun for those guys who like tanking (BASTION)... and then you go and gimp the ******* thing (Not 30% bonuses, removing Local rep bonuses etc.).
I just began training for Marauders since I saw the original rebalance thread, and guess what?! You then nerf it, tyvm CCP.. for wasting my time and money now. Everything's Air Droppable at least once. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
485
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 15:59:00 -
[2594] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:
Now thigns are better.. Eve is a PVP GAME, all ships that bear weapons should be PVP ships as much as possible.
It is a sandbox, and by that right I can say F*U to your PVP. I don't think asking for one solid, dedicated PVE ship in the hordes of PVP ships out there. its PVP GAME!!! What you want is IRRELEVANT regarding that. Sure you can try to balance ships for PVE, but not at the cost of makign them USELES for PVP Mining Barges and Industrials are even more useless for PVP :O Better get rid of them immedietly
That si why in my post i said.. Al l ships with WEAPONS... not all ships....
reading is good... |
Vassal Zeren
Uncontrollable Innovations
89
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 16:09:00 -
[2595] - Quote
Nosum Hseebnrido wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:Time for another update.We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
- Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
- Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
I will change the OP to match the changes. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck, I play this game for 7 years now "7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level" is a dumbest bonus in this entire game. I was finally happy that you decide to remove it from Kronos and Palladin with were NEVER use stasis webifier at all, because it's just pointless to use them with large turret. It's better to fit Tracking Computers instead, but CCP say "noo, it's wonderful bonus, let's give it to all Marauders, they deserve for it". Undone this change and get rid of this ridiculous bonus once for all ..
CCP call's utilizing the bastion's mass penalty to collapse whs abusement; I call it ingenuity. A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver. |
Jasper Blanch
Concordiat Spaceship Samurai
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 16:11:00 -
[2596] - Quote
I'm getting some really mixed signals here.
CCP Ytterbium wrote:... with turrets, you snipe the frigates first before they come in close. Even when they do come close, a 90% web usually isn't enough to keep transversal down to hit them with large guns.
CCP Ytterbium wrote:...
- We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level.
First, webs aren't needed, and even the 90% webs two of the marauders currently have aren't enough. Now, here are some reduced efficiency webs that I've already said you don't need and aren't good enough. Oh and just to make things fair, we're adding them to the other two marauders for ***** and giggles.
I really would rather see some kind of bonus to the effectiveness of target painters rather than webs, personally. Target painters have the advantage of being effective from beyond a maximum of 13km (more frequently 10km) and fit the snipe them down playstyle that seems to be being encouraged here much more adequately.
And I really would rather see the active tank bonus returned, but with t2 resists I can see the rationale behind their removal. |
Roy Hawkinz
R0GUE ENTITY Axiomatic Dominion
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 16:17:00 -
[2597] - Quote
Let me say how they must become. Don't destroy the marauders make them cool.
Each bastion mode should make the ship transform into a static howitzer platform. Golem: cruise/torp based etc. Race based special.
With a 200% increasement in dmg while offering up some tank like 30/50%. The ships are already good tanked so that don't need to by higher but make them how they should by.
Else please forget the hole bastion module I don't see me using it. Thanks. |
Gal Mart
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 16:24:00 -
[2598] - Quote
Stopping Marauders at 4 now. I'll just stick to Navy/Pirate versions if this iteration goes live. |
Lixia Saran
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
54
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 16:25:00 -
[2599] - Quote
Can we at least see what they'll look like?
Also, will they blend? |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1276
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 16:31:00 -
[2600] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:wonders if people realize that with t2 resists, you don't need the repairamoutnbonus anymore...
and that webs is kind of optional like the tractors. Still works fine neglecting those. Yes because 90% kin resistance helps me defend against sansha amd blood raiders right? Then choose appropriate hull... It's not that hard.
right so first iteration I did not have to choose. .. and now...
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
|
Hatsumi Kobayashi
V0LTA Verge of Collapse
268
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 16:31:00 -
[2601] - Quote
Hahahaha
oh man what a hilarious thread and turn of events
ytterbium you should quit doing games and jump into politics, you'd be great STANDING ON THE VERGE OF PROLAPSE |
Battle Cube
Cubes' Freakout Room.
42
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 16:32:00 -
[2602] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:MeBiatch wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:wonders if people realize that with t2 resists, you don't need the repairamoutnbonus anymore...
and that webs is kind of optional like the tractors. Still works fine neglecting those. Yes because 90% kin resistance helps me defend against sansha amd blood raiders right? Then choose appropriate hull... It's not that hard.
i would agree, but that would mean changing weapons systems as well. Personally i dont think its a huge deal though, the resists i mean. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 16:35:00 -
[2603] - Quote
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:Hahahaha
oh man what a hilarious thread and turn of events
ytterbium you should quit doing games and jump into politics, you'd be great The thought had crossed my mind that hes ******* with the lot of Ye for ***** n giggles If in doubt...do...excessively. |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
832
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 16:37:00 -
[2604] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:I find it superfluous to compare marauders which are going threw a balance phase to Pirate Battleships which have not.
How about lets balance Marauders to ships that have been balanced so that means tech I bs's.
lets compare marauders to Pirate Battleships when the Pirate Battleship thread gets opened in two weeks.
Well have to see. Raw DPS and damage projection are 2 different means to an end. As it stands Pirate faction ships have both. My Mach and RS can rain down fire and sulfur far away, one stronger closer, and one farther away but still both more than the Vargur will be able to do total. So that will mean that they will need to nerf them further to bring them in line. That will utterly suck. It will be the third nerf to the Mach since I started flying it. On a side note, I build pirate faction ships, nerfing the hulls yet again will nerf my income twofold yet again.
The RS needs a mild buff to be in line with its brethern, so buffing that will make it as good as a Mach at what the Mach does. But since the RS is a "Swiss Army Knife" or "Jack of all Trades", that will be bad.
But then I learned a long time ago in Eve; "Fly everything, because they are going to nerf something every time". Eve is Real |
Lair Osen
Unlawful Unit
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 16:48:00 -
[2605] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote: That si why in my post i said.. Al l ships with WEAPONS... not all ships....
So that discounts Freigters...
However Mining Barges have drones and Indys have Guns/Turrets and both can and have been used for PvP. |
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
82
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 16:50:00 -
[2606] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote: The RS needs a mild buff to be in line with its brethern, so buffing that will make it as good as a Mach at what the Mach does. But since the RS is a "Swiss Army Knife" or "Jack of all Trades", that will be bad.
Additional launcher hardpoint please. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1384
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 16:55:00 -
[2607] - Quote
Jackie Fisher wrote:Second iteration on balancing just terrible. They are now worse than they are currently in game in return for the benefit of Bastion.
Initial attempt was much better and at least a reasonable basis for further work.
As you appear to be scratching around for what to with them just keep it simple and just remove the original anti-PvP nerfs to them (fix grid, sensor strength and scan res) and move on to something else for now.
You are wrong and bad.
Seriously, i remember a time when CCP stated that they weren't going to make battleships with t2 restistances because its a horrible idea and its not interesting.
Don't make a change like this just to make a change.
CCP, If you don't have a solid idea for Marauders, don't change them until you do.
This sort of fumbling in the dark will lead us to a very bad place. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Mia Restolo
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
112
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 17:02:00 -
[2608] - Quote
I don't know what direction marauders are supposed to be taking any more, and it seems neither does CCP. So many changes coupled with the addition of the bastion module with its set of bonuses doesn't seem to work out while trying to keep all the marauders on even footing for lvl4s, incursions, null PvE, and PvP.
So with proposed changes we have a ship with low mobility that can blink 100km often with range bonuses that seem to push it towards sniping, but then it also gets a massive brick tank and a web bonus that is far more useful point blank. A tractor beam bonus that reaches about half way between the two.
Bastion seems to be in for sure, but I think it should be balanced with itself, not mesh with a nerfed marauder hull or compensate with its shortcomings. FIRST improve the hulls, leave them similar to TQ, retain the fitting buffs, buff sensor strength, maybe T2 resists. THEN do the bastion module pass with much smaller bonuses than currently proposed, maybe even two different modules with one set for defense that nerfs offense and one that does the opposite, or tailored to fighting style (long/short maybe?) |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4574
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 17:13:00 -
[2609] - Quote
Grarr Dexx wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:To quote this other post. CCP Ytterbium wrote:We haven't decided on anything regarding Marauders yet regarding web bonuses, remember until release this is an open discussion we're having.
We will still be running internal tests on both proposed versions on the Marauder thread, as well as some other variations - so consider yourself warned if things evolve in the future. And by that we mean, Winter release is still quite some time away, we want to take our time to shape those things right, and see them on public testing before coming up with a final decision. Theory crafting is nice, but they also need to be put into practical situations. Yes, truly the epitome of practicality, giving a web strength bonus to a ship that also has a role bonus to a module that jumps you 100km in any direction. Well, that's what people were demanding. Go figure. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 17:14:00 -
[2610] - Quote
this might sound silly but can we get a web range bonus also while you are in bastion mode? maybe 200% range ? |
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