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Transmaritanus
Sinister Elite Black Legion.
74
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Posted - 2013.08.20 19:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
So after having my thread moved from GD to this area. I figured I'd make my arguement here:
We know plexing with triple stabbed cloaked ships is a problem, and in now way represents what FW is supposed to be. When a plex farmer warps out or cloaks, they suffer no consequences and is almost impossible to catch (unless I'm there, of course.)
To solve this, implement timer rollbacks on FW plexes if the timer isn't run down for more than 1 minute.
How does this help? -A Cloaked farmer will have to decloak to preserve his efforts, allowing a chance at pvp. -A Stabbed farmer will lose his timer on his LP if he burns out, instead of fighting like he should for his LP.1 -They will no longer farm once they realize that they have to fight to actually earn their LP, thus both encouraging PvP for new players as well as solving the plex farming that is so ubiquitous in FW.
I offer suggestions to amend to this. |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
165
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Posted - 2013.08.20 19:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
If anything your proposal is very generous.
One minutes grace is quite a long time, if you leave the capture zone or cloak it should count down.
It should count down twice as fast if an enemy militia pilot stays in the capture zone. This enables players to take time of faster than farmers can put it on. This is important in case they just keep swapping plexes.
I would also like the NPC to return if the timer counts back to it's starting position after previously reaching a minute or so depending on plex size. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1535
|
Posted - 2013.08.20 21:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Players at fanfest complained about farmers swarming the FW warzone and diminishing the efforts of those FW players who wish to play the full FW metagame.
The proposed timer rollback feature has been universally applauded by FW players as one way to help those who want to pvp hold off those who only want to pve in FW plexes.
I think it's time for CCP to comment in this thread and let us know when/if they plan on implementing them. And if not, then why not.
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Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
582
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Posted - 2013.08.20 21:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
I think automatic defensive timer rollback is not a good idea.
1. Make de-plexing not relevant and not needed a daily acctive gameplay in a system to keep control over it
2. Shift the balance to favour the defenders: make things easier for them in respect of the attackers. This cause stagnant situation like in null sov. In general this also advantage larger militias.
3. Cause neutrals/pirates to affect the warzone control: if a plexer is chased out or killed by neutrals this also affect the warzone control.
Instead:
increasing the the timer speed for defending plexing could be good idea, should be doubled. This still an advantage for defenders but at least requires an active militia gameplay.
Review the rat spawns mechanics (rollback to how was after inferno release) is also a good idea and could re-balance a lot of things.
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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1083
|
Posted - 2013.08.20 22:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
I'm all for timer rollbacks, for both o-plexing and d-plexing.
Remove diagonal plexing, or at minimum halve the rewards. The other warzone might be a hot spot to go grab some pew, but it shouldn't be someplace you go to do maximum farming just because it's slower than your own.
System upgrades should bring tougher, more numerous NPC spawns. Nothing ridiculous, but it should go from being able to kill the Novice NPC(s) with a 1 day character in a bare system to having to bring an actual combat fit frigate to do so in a level 5 upgraded system. Bringing back something similar to the old random wave spawns in fully upgraded systems would also be useful.
System upgrades should also shift plex mechanics in the favor of the defender, exactly as DUST was supposed to do. A fully upgraded system should be slower to o-plex, and faster to d-plex, whether it's a plex-% shift like DUST, or a timer reduction for d-plexing. This doesn't halt farming, but it does reduce its detrimental effects on people who are actually tied to the FW mechanics.
All plexes should have NPCs with the ability to scram/web/ewar, in addition to the size-specific NPC. In Novices this would be the NPC. Each new wave should include one or more of these NPCs.
All plex NPCs should be hostile to anyone who is not in their respective faction militia, regardless of outside standings or other factors. If you go in and you are not militia-X, you get attacked. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Chidori Ukyo
Huang Yinglong White-Lotus
0
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Posted - 2013.08.21 00:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
In short, the problem is parasitism.
Eve is a complex dynamic system. Within such systems, we will always find various forms of Parasitism. It is to be expected. As such, it must be continually addressed.
There are two ways in which parasites can be handled. One is for the entities within the system to adapt and fight the parasites on their own. This can be compared to biological systems arms races. We have been doing this for quite some time. I have multiple stab + cloak kills on my board too.
However, the issue has reached a tipping point where we can go no longer handle the parasites in the form and numbers that they have reached on our own.
We therefore must resort to the second form of handling the parasites. We must have CCP make changes to the system's inherent flaws. Through the course of the discussion, we have pretty well established that they do exist and what they are.
Ideas have been brought forth.
So here they are, CCP:
1)Timer Rollback or Reset - This idea has been fairly well hashed out. The overwhelming consensus among the non-parasites is that this will work well, and is in theme with the entire concept of FW. Do it. You keep what you kill. --Chronicles of Riddick
2)System Upgrades should affect the passive defenses of the plex in some fashion. We are throwing LP at the system core. it ought to be able to afford a few extra ships to help defend the plex and make it harder for poorly fit people to take them. Increase the risk.
3)Plexes are now more numerous. Limit the number of available plexes of a single size to one, that way they can not just pop another of the same size and run between them. Keeping the numbers up is a good thing, making all of them available at once is not. There have been times when this has gone beyond annoying. This will also help force more fights.
4)Concord Status: Neutrals and non-flashy Pirates. Idea: Activation of the entry warp gate requires safety set to yellow for non-FW pilots and automatically set non-FW pilots suspect when activated. We should not be penalized for defending our territory! Reasoning: There are numerous groups within FW that are Anti-Pirate. The problem is that we must adjust our RoE while defending/attacking a plex and dealing with people that are not a part of FW.
sìâT¦ÑsŦS¦¼ |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1083
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 01:23:00 -
[7] - Quote
Chidori Ukyo wrote: 4)Concord Status: Neutrals and non-flashy Pirates. Idea: Activation of the entry warp gate requires safety set to yellow for non-FW pilots and automatically set non-FW pilots suspect when activated. We should not be penalized for defending our territory! Reasoning: There are numerous groups within FW that are Anti-Pirate. The problem is that we must adjust our RoE while defending/attacking a plex and dealing with people that are not a part of FW.
sìâT¦ÑsŦS¦¼
I see no reason to even fool with safety settings, but I don't have much problem with popping suspect on non-militia that enter a FW plex. They're not going there to cap it, that's for damn sure.
Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Terbulus
Meltdown.
2
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Posted - 2013.08.21 03:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
Im in min mil, and I approve of this product or service. Also, hi trannie! o/ |
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
11
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Posted - 2013.08.22 00:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
Bumping for a good idea that almost everyone agrees with. |
Humang
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
11
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Posted - 2013.08.22 02:11:00 -
[10] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:I'm all for timer rollbacks, for both o-plexing and d-plexing.
Remove diagonal plexing, or at minimum halve the rewards. The other warzone might be a hot spot to go grab some pew, but it shouldn't be someplace you go to do maximum farming just because it's slower than your own.
System upgrades should bring tougher, more numerous NPC spawns. Nothing ridiculous, but it should go from being able to kill the Novice NPC(s) with a 1 day character in a bare system to having to bring an actual combat fit frigate to do so in a level 5 upgraded system. Bringing back something similar to the old random wave spawns in fully upgraded systems would also be useful.
System upgrades should also shift plex mechanics in the favor of the defender, exactly as DUST was supposed to do. A fully upgraded system should be slower to o-plex, and faster to d-plex, whether it's a plex-% shift like DUST, or a timer reduction for d-plexing. This doesn't halt farming, but it does reduce its detrimental effects on people who are actually tied to the FW mechanics.
All plexes should have NPCs with the ability to scram/web/ewar, in addition to the size-specific NPC. In Novices this would be the NPC. Each new wave should include one or more of these NPCs.
All plex NPCs should be hostile to anyone who is not in their respective faction militia, regardless of outside standings or other factors. If you go in and you are not militia-X, you get attacked.
I'm no longer in FW but I approve of this. Front lines should be just as it sounds.
I will add an an idea however, systems should be easier to capture if it is connected to a system owned by the faction trying to capture it. Maybe even less reward for plexing systems nowhere near a friendly controlled system, and if they manage to capture it, then the next system will be easier as I stated before.
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Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
11
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Posted - 2013.08.22 13:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
Timer rollbacks are required as the bare minimum. Having more numerous NPCs if the system is upgraded and having the rats attack neutrals are at this point "nice to have". |
Meditril
T.R.I.A.D
309
|
Posted - 2013.08.22 14:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
Chidori Ukyo wrote:In short, the problem is parasitism.
I love your style and proposals! |
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
11
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Posted - 2013.08.22 16:39:00 -
[13] - Quote
Timer rollbacks just make sense. |
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
12
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Posted - 2013.08.23 14:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
Is there a challenge from a programming standpoint to get this implemented? |
Meditril
T.R.I.A.D
309
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Posted - 2013.08.23 14:53:00 -
[15] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Is there a challenge from a programming standpoint to get this implemented? I suppose there is a challange from the business standpoint... |
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
12
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Posted - 2013.08.23 15:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
I doubt it, even with timer rollbacks farming FW sites will still be very lucrative for people who don't have the knowledge/experience/sp to do something better. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1089
|
Posted - 2013.08.23 16:02:00 -
[17] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:I doubt it, even with timer rollbacks farming FW sites will still be very lucrative for people who don't have the knowledge/experience/sp to do something better.
Yep. It's never going to stop it entirely, since there are always relatively slow times of day and backwater systems to plex in. But it will make a dent in certain sectors of the farming population. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
12
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Posted - 2013.08.23 16:24:00 -
[18] - Quote
Agreed. Even a moderate dent in the farmers will reduce their impact on both warzone control and the value of LP related items, and is something I think almost everyone in FW and even the FW Lowsec pirates would like to see.
Are timer rollbacks the end all be all to changes that need to be made in FW? No Are timer rollbacks something that should be relatively easy & quick to implement that almost everyone agrees with? Yes |
Transmaritanus
Sinister Elite Black Legion.
77
|
Posted - 2013.08.23 20:23:00 -
[19] - Quote
Is there a way we can make this more visible to make change? or get a dev tolook into it? |
Jennifer Maxwell
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
0
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Posted - 2013.08.23 20:36:00 -
[20] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Players at fanfest complained about farmers swarming the FW warzone and diminishing the efforts of those FW players who wish to play the full FW metagame.
The proposed timer rollback feature has been universally applauded by FW players as one way to help those who want to pvp hold off those who only want to pve in FW plexes.
I think it's time for CCP to comment in this thread and let us know when/if they plan on implementing them. And if not, then why not.
Here's something I'd completely agree with you on. Farmers hold way too much power in FW, to the point where they can make or break a side, not the ones doing the actual fighting. |
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Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
12
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Posted - 2013.08.26 18:08:00 -
[21] - Quote
Would be great if we could get a CCP comment on this. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1141
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 19:08:00 -
[22] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Would be great if we could get a CCP comment on this.
Unfortunately, it probably won't happen. I doubt messing with the FW mechanics is even on their extended list of things to do. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
paritybit
Repo.
262
|
Posted - 2013.08.26 23:05:00 -
[23] - Quote
Please go support this proposal in the assembly hall. It has been universally ignored by the CSM. It doesn't seem like anybody is against it; even the pilots taking advantage of the broken mechanic are quick to admit it's basically free isk. Rolling back timers can only benefit existing faction warfare pilots who actually plan to actively participate in their game rather than sit idly in a plex with an unfit ship or a microwarpdrive frigate with more warp core stabilizers than you can count (okay, I can count to 4, so I know how many the Incursus really has). The current mechanics are slathering reward where it isn't warranted and polluting the war zone with players not actively playing. |
Keldor Eternia
Multnomah Interstellar Holdings Inc.
7
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Posted - 2013.08.27 01:14:00 -
[24] - Quote
I fully support a decaying timer. Cheeky FW farmers need to go to hell |
Irya Boone
TIPIAKS
260
|
Posted - 2013.08.27 09:34:00 -
[25] - Quote
My name is Irya Boone and i fully support this idea
and i would like to add that pirates can interfere in the matter , they are pirates so , yes it'a good thing that pirate presence can help rollback the timer.
Need More more more more LP from bashing I-hubs too RENAME null sec systems With the name of REAL Universe Stellar Name like KOI-730 etc etc It will be awesome. Need Black Ops be able to FIT cover ops cloaking device !!! |
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
596
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Posted - 2013.08.27 12:05:00 -
[26] - Quote
Irya Boone wrote:and i would like to add that pirates can interfere in the matter , they are pirates so , yes it'a good thing that pirate presence can help rollback the timer.
Why, is a good thing? Why should any neutral (willing or unwilling), not enlisted in any militia, automatically used as defender militia (and not being a legal WT)?
Again, timer rollback, if not handled and balanced properly could easly destroy FW mechanics.
Automatic timer rollback means: no need of militia activity or presence to hold a captured system. And is already proved as this kind of mechanics in EVE lead to stagnant or no gameplay.
The current attacker/defender balance mechanics work fine. Any change giving an advantage to one or the other need to be balanced.
I'd say poisitvely a rollback triggered by oppoisite militia and not requiring to stay there the whole time. But this simply cause defensive plexing is terribly boring and nobody does it. But this also should be re-balanced since makes defending easier
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paritybit
Repo.
263
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Posted - 2013.08.27 22:15:00 -
[27] - Quote
Sura Sadiva wrote:Why, is a good thing? Why should any neutral (willing or unwilling), not enlisted in any militia, automatically used as defender militia (and not being a legal WT)?
This doesn't make any sense. If there is a neutral at your plex, you can happily ignore him and keep plexing. If he shoots you, game mechanics enable you to shoot back. If he's a criminal, you can even shoot first. You are actively trying to capture something, and anybody (even those of us with no allegiance) can stop you from capturing it.
Sura Sadiva wrote:Automatic timer rollback means: no need of militia activity or presence to hold a captured system. And is already proved as this kind of mechanics in EVE lead to stagnant or no gameplay.
What? If a system has been captured by militia A, militia B can come in and take it provided that nobody is actively stopping them.
I find that most people in plexes these days are not trying to attack or defend, they're trying to pick up free loyalty points. They aren't playing a game, they're exploiting a broken system. |
Thanatos Marathon
Black Fox Marauders
14
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Posted - 2013.08.28 13:22:00 -
[28] - Quote
The issue with neutrals doesn't really impact timer rollbacks any more then it impacts everything else that has to do with 2 or more parties that are at war with each other. The mechanics are there for the most part to deal with them (aggression mechanics, security status, gate guns, etc.). The one mechanic in FW that I would like to see implemented with regard to "neutral pilots" is to have faction rats inside plexes shoot everyone that isn't in their militia (including neutrals). But that is a different topic.
For now lets just focus on the timer rollbacks. |
Transmaritanus
Sinister Elite Black Legion.
78
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Posted - 2013.08.28 15:34:00 -
[29] - Quote
Sura Sadiva wrote:Irya Boone wrote:and i would like to add that pirates can interfere in the matter , they are pirates so , yes it'a good thing that pirate presence can help rollback the timer. Why, is a good thing? Why should any neutral (willing or unwilling), not enlisted in any militia, automatically used as defender militia (and not being a legal WT)? Again, timer rollback, if not handled and balanced properly could easly destroy FW mechanics. Automatic timer rollback means: no need of militia activity or presence to hold a captured system. And is already proved as this kind of mechanics in EVE lead to stagnant or no gameplay. The current attacker/defender balance mechanics work fine. Any change giving an advantage to one or the other need to be balanced. I'd say poisitvely a rollback triggered by oppoisite militia and not requiring to stay there the whole time. But this simply cause defensive plexing is terribly boring and nobody does it. But this also should be re-balanced since makes defending easier
Not a legal WT?
Dude have you spend 5 minutes in lowsec? EVERYONE is a target. |
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
596
|
Posted - 2013.08.28 18:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
[quote=paritybit] What? If a system has been captured by militia A, militia B can come in and take it provided that nobody is actively stopping them. /quote]
Oh, really...
But if we change the system to an automaatic rollback when the plexer run means:
1. you're capturing a plex 2. a neutral eneter the plex and kills you and force (that's fine) 3. The plex timer start to rollback with no opposite/defending faction actions taken
Basically any neutral would act as defendener in the warzone control Is an huge advantage for defending militia; and basically means to hold FW control one not only don't need to be there but don't even need to be enlisted in any militia.
This kind of sovreignity linked to passive gameplay to be hold already proved to be terrible and lead to stagnation.
What I'm saying is that a presence or action from militia pilot need to be required to start the rollback (and balanced with an equivalent advantage for the offrnsive plexing).
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