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Aelisha
Achura-Waschi Exchange
213
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Posted - 2013.07.26 13:07:00 -
[31] - Quote
I love it when people state that: 'these opinions are not representative of my parent alliance'.
There is no quicker way to get Ushra Khan highlighted as the racist hypocrites that people have long suspected them to be, especially when such a petty form of 'revenge' is taken by a known terror cell and then condoned by a sorry excuse for a man claiming it is 'just' while denying that he speaks for the organisation he is a member of. Ushra Khan would do well to expel this miscreant if they wish to stand by his own words, that they do not support his point of view. Anything less is agreement by association.
I guess when you do it, it's an honour killing, when anyone else does it, it's a murder, hmm?
I have little love for the Federation, but eye for an eye tactics are a little barbaric, especially when they do not seek to address the root problem, only burn a few buildings and end a few lives in an expression of infantile rage. None of this makes me question the Republic, but all of it raises a lot of questions about a certain organisation that claims to support it.
We at AWEX corporation send our condolences to the families of the deceased, and wish a speedy recovery to the unfortunates maimed in this vile attack. CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange: An International trade corporation that adheres to State values
Intaki born State Citizen and supporter of the Practicals Bloc. |
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
278
|
Posted - 2013.07.26 13:08:00 -
[32] - Quote
Yes, Ugleb, give in to your hate, Hate the Gallente, and their cultural oppression of 'your' people. |
Tamonash en Welle
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
12
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Posted - 2013.07.26 14:20:00 -
[33] - Quote
Morwen Lagann wrote: My advice to the Republic? Do the cluster, and more importantly, yourselves, a favor for once: turn over the Bloody Hands.
Now I'm not master of intelligence affairs, but appears most likely that these terrorists are hiding within the Federation and preparing new attacks. I hope the FIO while handle this affair efficiently. |
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
771
|
Posted - 2013.07.26 14:32:00 -
[34] - Quote
Tamonash en Welle wrote:Morwen Lagann wrote: My advice to the Republic? Do the cluster, and more importantly, yourselves, a favor for once: turn over the Bloody Hands.
Now I'm not master of intelligence affairs, but appears most likely that these terrorists are hiding within the Federation and preparing new attacks. I hope the FIO while handle this affair efficiently.
One would hope, except that the Bloody Hands and Shakor are birds of a feather, and you ought to know what they say about those.
If they're smart, they'll be running home to Daddy Sanmatar for protection while they plan their next move. Morwen Lagann Director, Tyrathlion Interstellar |
Ollie Rundle
The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative
63
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Posted - 2013.07.26 14:48:00 -
[35] - Quote
Ugleb wrote:There are a great many Minmatar living within Federation space, it is long past time that the Gallente learned to understand them.
There is a vast difference between the understanding of a culture and capitulating to unreasonable demands, gunboat diplomacy and overt acts of terrorism. You appear to have confused the two.
O. Rundle The Synenose Accord Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated. |
Shintoko Akahoshi
The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative
300
|
Posted - 2013.07.26 15:07:00 -
[36] - Quote
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:Minmatar are living in Gallente space, it is for us to adjust to them, not the other way around. It is for us to teach them if we wish them to know.
In general I really approve of the things you're saying here, Asatru, especially this. I think it should go a step even further, though. The Federation's absorbed about as many Matari as the Republic is composed of, and in general they've done well here. A good addition to the Federation. They're an integral part of something that Republic Matari simply have no experience with - a well-functioning multiracial democracy. Maybe the Gallentean Matari have something valuable to teach something to the Republic Matari. Bio and writing |
Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
158
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Posted - 2013.07.26 16:47:00 -
[37] - Quote
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:kraiklyn Asatru wrote:Minmatar are living in Gallente space, it is for us to adjust to them, not the other way around. It is for us to teach them if we wish them to know. In general I really approve of the things you're saying here, Asatru, especially this. I think it should go a step even further, though. The Federation's absorbed about as many Matari as the Republic is composed of, and in general they've done well here. A good addition to the Federation. They're an integral part of something that Republic Matari simply have no experience with - a well-functioning multiracial democracy. Maybe the Gallentean Matari have something valuable to teach something to the Republic Matari.
I think a large part of the problem is that the Republic is currently dominated (and, as demonstrated by the OP, quite often represented) by what an old Khanid philosopher once described as 'dark thinkers'. Not a moral judgement; 'dark' as in the opposite of 'light' in a purely mechanical sense. He pointed out that it is not possible to have a concept of darkness without a concept of light; darkness is, in every possible sense, the absence of light. Darkness is defined by its opposite, and thus without that opposite, we would have no concept of it..
In this case, that means that these 'dark thinkers' entirely structure themselves based upon their relationship with the Empire. If the Empire spontaneously ceased to exist, these people would be totally lost. But since we're here, and not going anywhere, they can attempt to frame their entire civilisation as an attempt to contradict ours. Their jingoism, their outright racism (what else would you call it?), their 'we're misunderstood victims' whining schtick...
Sadly, I think a lot of them actually believe that the treatment they received genuinely is a get-out-of-jail-free card to do whatever they please. I'm not going to talk about justifications for the conflict between the Empire and the Republic, because I don't feel like getting stung to death by shoving fireworks anywhere near that hornet's nest, but Republic foreign policy since Shakor took over has shown breathtaking arrogance and revilement towards anything not Matari.
The funny thing is, the moment any Amarrian makes the smallest comment on the matter, the ad hominems and waving of said card come thick and fast. It's been quite educational watching how things have evolved here lately, given that most Amarrians have stayed very quiet during the Colelie incident and aftermath. I know that many Gallente commentators have been saying things that I agree with, and I would imagine that a lot of my kin similarly agree with, but suddenly there's a shortage of reasonable defence for a lot of what happened from certain parties that will remain nameless.
I'm aware that that probably sounds pretty venomous towards Matari in general. It's not meant to be; my target is the Republic and certain elements, like the OP and his beloved Bloody Hands. The Matari people are capable of great things, and I hope that one day the political situation changes and sanity is restored. People like Mr Asatru are at least a step in the right direction. |
Rodj Blake
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1406
|
Posted - 2013.07.26 17:15:00 -
[38] - Quote
Ava Starfire wrote:Electus Matari does not condone such acts of senseless violence.
But you do participate in them.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
2633
|
Posted - 2013.07.26 17:31:00 -
[39] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:Ava Starfire wrote:Electus Matari does not condone such acts of senseless violence. But you do participate in them.
...and your hands are clean of violence and senseless destruction? Hah?
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Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
160
|
Posted - 2013.07.26 17:42:00 -
[40] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Rodj Blake wrote:Ava Starfire wrote:Electus Matari does not condone such acts of senseless violence. But you do participate in them. ...and your hands are clean of violence and senseless destruction? Hah?
Time until ad hominem 'you're mean too' anti-Amarrian remark... 16 minutes.
Thanks for proving my point, Anslo. |
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Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
775
|
Posted - 2013.07.26 17:45:00 -
[41] - Quote
Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:Anslo wrote:Rodj Blake wrote:Ava Starfire wrote:Electus Matari does not condone such acts of senseless violence. But you do participate in them. ...and your hands are clean of violence and senseless destruction? Hah? Time until ad hominem 'you're mean too' anti-Amarrian remark... 16 minutes. Thanks for proving my point, Anslo.
To be fair, we were both betting on it being done in less than 5 minutes...
Morwen Lagann Director, Tyrathlion Interstellar |
Rodj Blake
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1407
|
Posted - 2013.07.26 17:49:00 -
[42] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Rodj Blake wrote:Ava Starfire wrote:Electus Matari does not condone such acts of senseless violence. But you do participate in them. ...and your hands are clean of violence and senseless destruction? Hah?
I can assure you that any destruction that I wreak is entirely sensible - but I fail to see what that has to do with the matter at hand. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Sofia Roseburn
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
48
|
Posted - 2013.07.26 18:24:00 -
[43] - Quote
Sensible to you perhaps. To anyone else it's a waste of good biomass. If only we had more people like Launette Vylier. |
Shintoko Akahoshi
The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative
305
|
Posted - 2013.07.26 19:50:00 -
[44] - Quote
Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:The funny thing is, the moment any Amarrian makes the smallest comment on the matter, the ad hominems and waving of said card come thick and fast.
To be fair, the Amarrians aren't the only targets for the ad hominem swarm. To use my own experience as an example, I've been the target of ad hominem attacks by various Republic-affiliated pilots from the day I started criticizing the Republic's attack at Colelie, and continuing to this day. It's a tactic which is as tiresome as it is fallacious, but I'm pleased to see that there are educated people who see the tactic as the fallacy that it is.
I, for one, welcome the opinion of Blake, and any other Amarrians who'd care to discuss this. There's no reason to exclude anyone from the discussion. Bio and writing |
Ston Momaki
Disciples of Ston
830
|
Posted - 2013.07.26 22:13:00 -
[45] - Quote
This act of violence like most acts of violence in our cluster was perpetrated by men and women with unrefined natures, not because they are Matari or Caldari, or Gallente, or Amarrian, but because they are humans ruled by hate. This was not an act of self-defense or of even justifiable war, but of vengeance, pure and simple. We will not solve the issue of terrorism by assigning fault on the basis of race or culture or nation, but only by looking within our base natures, identifying our own instincts of ruthlessness and then deciding to subdue that base nature. We must choose peace; that choice being most difficult when tempted by vengeance and feeling justified in that temptation.
Let those who subdue the impulse to strike back be held up as the most honored among us, whomever they may be, of whatever tribe, race, nation, people. Those are the men and women of will and courage.
The Disciples of Ston bid you peace |
Silas Vitalia
Nobilita Nera JIHADASQUAD
996
|
Posted - 2013.07.26 23:01:00 -
[46] - Quote
No one cares what you think, Ston. Back to your little echo chamber!
Sabik now, Sabik forever |
James Syagrius
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly
477
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 02:52:00 -
[47] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Rodj Blake wrote:Ava Starfire wrote:Electus Matari does not condone such acts of senseless violence. But you do participate in them. ...and your hands are clean of violence and senseless destruction? Hah? And there it is.
GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
http://syagrius-eve.blogspot.com/
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Gosakumori Noh
Viziam Amarr Empire
270
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 03:13:00 -
[48] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote: I can assure you that any destruction that I wreak is entirely sensible - but I fail to see what that has to do with the matter at hand.
My memory is not what it was, and I do tend to focus on the people I despise. Consequently, I am quite willing to admit that PIE may have killed tens of thousands of Caldari nationals in Caldari space aboard Caldari dreadnoughts after the State insisted on trying its own criminals in its own courts when I wasn't paying attention.
Did you do such a thing, you naughty boy? |
Ugleb
Jotunn Risi Ushra'Khan
363
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 13:45:00 -
[49] - Quote
Unfortunately I have not been able to return to this discussion as quickly as I might have liked, so let me try to respond a few points raised.
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:Ugleb you are a friend and I know that you have the best interest of the Matari at heart, but you are wrong here. Any who know me, know I am anything but a moderate. This however is just wrong, how can you claim to jusitfy killing because you feel misunderstood. You point at the Gallente and blame them for not knowing what it means to be Matari, and for not understanding our culture. Right after you spit them in the face for all they have done for us. Minmatar are living in Gallente space, it is for us to adjust to them, not the other way around. It is for us to teach them if we wish them to know. If anything you seem incredibly ignorant of gallente ways. They are not Matari, they do not think like we do. You can not judgethem by that standard. The bloody hand are hypocrites and act with callous disregard for minmatar interest and human life in general. Let's fight our real enemies, we have plenty without having to imagine new ones.
You are mistaken, you and the bloody hand need to chance your course.
I did not come to the summit to offer my approval or support of this attack. I do not think that this was the correct target. I do not think that act will do anything to improve the position of the Minmatar. And if nothing else, I certainly question the timing of it all, as I clearly stated in my opening statement. I believe that this was a miss-calculated move on the 'Hands part.
What I did come to say was that I understand what motivated the 'Hands to take such an unprecedented action against the Gallente. And it is because I understand that I cannot bring myself to condemn. I do not expect many people to agree with me here, so don't for a minute think that I'm blind to this.
I believe that the correct focus here would be for the Gallente to make a greater attempt to understand why this happened and to take steps towards rectifying their attitudes towards Tribal culture. If they continue to blithely disregard it then we are all doomed to see a repetition of this incident and worse.
We Minmatar are a tribal people and our culture runs within our blood. It is folly to think otherwise and to ignore this reality when there are so many first generation Minmatar immigrants now living within Gallente space. http://uglebsjournal.wordpress.com/
The Jotunn Risi are now recruiting, Brutor ancestry required in order to best represent the Brutor interest.-á Join channel JORIS to learn more! |
Ugleb
Jotunn Risi Ushra'Khan
363
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 14:04:00 -
[50] - Quote
Ava Starfire wrote:A public service announcement from Electus Matari:
Ugleb is no more representative of the Minmatar people than Diana Kim is of the Caldari.
My heart and prayers to those killed in yet more senseless violence. Sad, that a group who wanted to kill Midular, now kills because someone else killed her.
Spirits guide you all
Aelisha wrote:I love it when people state that: 'these opinions are not representative of my parent alliance'.
There is no quicker way to get Ushra Khan highlighted as the racist hypocrites that people have long suspected them to be, especially when such a petty form of 'revenge' is taken by a known terror cell and then condoned by a sorry excuse for a man claiming it is 'just' while denying that he speaks for the organisation he is a member of. Ushra Khan would do well to expel this miscreant if they wish to stand by his own words, that they do not support his point of view. Anything less is agreement by association.
Ava argues that I do not represent the Minmatar as my views are more 'right wing' than most. Aelisha argues that I cannot claim to speak only for myself while being a part of a larger entity. I would suggest then that everyone else simply listens to what I have to say then decide for themselves what to think about the matter at hand. I find that many summit users have an instaiable desire to categorise, pigeon-hole and generalise everything. It is wearisome.
When I recently rejoined the Ushra'Khan, I sent out an alliance-wide statement forewarning all of my comrades that I would be continuing to pursue the Jotunn Risi's independent political agenda, and that I fully expected there would be times when it did not necessarily align with the larger Ushra'Khan. At this point I do not hold any formal position within the alliance and have still not discussed this particular matter with any ranking member of the Ushra'Khan, therefore I believe that my opening statement stands.
I am in fact speaking on behalf of the Jotunn Risi and myself and accept any possible consequence of standing by my beliefs, no matter how controversial or provocative you might believe them to be. The events of Atlanins clearly demonstrate however that I am far from being alone in this even if I am among the few willing and able to say so on a platform such as this. http://uglebsjournal.wordpress.com/
The Jotunn Risi are now recruiting, Brutor ancestry required in order to best represent the Brutor interest.-á Join channel JORIS to learn more! |
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Shintoko Akahoshi
The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative
310
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 15:15:00 -
[51] - Quote
Ugleb wrote:I believe that the correct focus here would be for the Gallente to make a greater attempt to understand why this happened and to take steps towards rectifying their attitudes towards Tribal culture. If they continue to blithely disregard it then we are all doomed to see a repetition of this incident and worse.
Why do you say that? Because the Bloody Hand will continue to burn down factories? Or are you arguing that this is an emergent behavior due to the fact that you Minmatar are these special "tribal" folks? 'Cos it sure doesn't look like that to me.
Stop making excuses for what is really just criminal behavior. Stop trying to paint all the rest of the Republic Matari with that brush. I don't think they really appreciate it. Bio and writing |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1281
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 17:24:00 -
[52] - Quote
Ugleb wrote:I believe that the correct focus here would be for the Gallente to make a greater attempt to understand why this happened and to take steps towards rectifying their attitudes towards Tribal culture. If they continue to blithely disregard it then we are all doomed to see a repetition of this incident and worse.
We Minmatar are a tribal people and our culture runs within our blood. It is folly to think otherwise and to ignore this reality when there are so many first generation Minmatar immigrants now living within Gallente space.
I understand why they did it too. They did it because they could.
But that is not a circumstance that need endure. It is QUITE possible to control these segments of your workforce through the application of properly formatted protocols and properly trained and motivated staff.
Through counter-intelligence it should be possible to pinpoint potential trouble-makers and neutralise them before they exercise their potential for violence. |
Ugleb
Jotunn Risi Ushra'Khan
363
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 17:45:00 -
[53] - Quote
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:Ugleb wrote:I believe that the correct focus here would be for the Gallente to make a greater attempt to understand why this happened and to take steps towards rectifying their attitudes towards Tribal culture. If they continue to blithely disregard it then we are all doomed to see a repetition of this incident and worse. Why do you say that? Because the Bloody Hand will continue to burn down factories? Or are you arguing that this is an emergent behavior due to the fact that you Minmatar are these special "tribal" folks? 'Cos it sure doesn't look like that to me. Stop making excuses for what is really just criminal behavior. Stop trying to paint all the rest of the Republic Matari with that brush. I don't think they really appreciate it.
I suspect that the Bloody Hand may now be finding new recruits among the Minmatar population within the Federation. The Gallente should be considering this possibility and asking why this may now be the case and what they could do to change opinions and address the problem at an early stage.
Or, they could follow your lead and blindly insist that there are no underlying issues surrounding this event and that Gallente society has flawlessly integrated many millions of immigrants in only a few years, miraculously eliminating any and all sources of racial tension.
Sadly, I'm fairly sure that is not the case as we are not discussing a hypothetical event here. http://uglebsjournal.wordpress.com/
The Jotunn Risi are now recruiting, Brutor ancestry required in order to best represent the Brutor interest.-á Join channel JORIS to learn more! |
Steffanie Saissore
The Order of the Ebon Rose
117
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 18:47:00 -
[54] - Quote
Ugleb wrote: I suspect that the Bloody Hand may now be finding new recruits among the Minmatar population within the Federation. The Gallente should be considering this possibility and asking why this may now be the case and what they could do to change opinions and address the problem at an early stage.
Or, they could follow your lead and blindly insist that there are no underlying issues surrounding this event and that Gallente society has flawlessly integrated many millions of immigrants in only a few years, miraculously eliminating any and all sources of racial tension.
Sadly, I'm fairly sure that is not the case as we are not discussing a hypothetical event here.
I'm truly confused by your motivation here...are you trying to make the Federation paranoid about the Minmatar who live in our border and thus create a situation wherein the more radical elements within the Republic can exploit? Or are you trying, in a very odd and obscure way, be trying to help warn? Whatever the motivation, the underlying threatening tone does make me very leery of your intentions. Ser Steffanie Saissore, Knight Commander (Errant), Order of the Ebon Rose
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Gosakumori Noh
Viziam Amarr Empire
273
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 19:38:00 -
[55] - Quote
Let's see:
Option Number One: "accommodate the tantrums of a civilization so corrupt and incompetent that billions of its citizens have been forced to find refuge in the Federation."
Option Number Two: "pretend that plague-ridden cockroaches are not sneaking in to the Federation along with legitimate refugees from the above mentioned corruption and incompetence."
Hmmm. Might there be a third? Perhaps... the Federation could create a sophisticated intelligence and security apparatus, one capable of identifying cockroaches among legitimate refugees and making those cockroaches disappear? Yes, I like where that's going. There might even be a market for those cockroaches. Why, at least one medical research project is in need of Sebiestor brains.
But with recent State-side developments, the pressure has let up a bit on the Federation's military-industrial complex, hasn't it? That could lead to, you know, peace and budget cuts.
A few reminders for voters, now and then, that there remains a threat.... oh, Matari "terrorists!" Perfect!
Now, I do love the smell of tribal culture in the morning, and not but a year or so ago, I myself made the argument that the "tribes" should actually, you know, act like tribes. Feisty is good, yes, but scurrying around like plague-ridden cockroaches in an empire that doesn't really want to destroy you is not "tribal," its chickenshit.
Amarr is the enemy of the tribes. Amarr hates you. Amarr wants to leave you rotting in cages until you either die or learn how to act like a real civilization. A warlike response is to be expected. That's what makes the crucible of hatred work. On the plus side, it appears as if House Sarum might actually seize the initiative on this one. |
Shintoko Akahoshi
The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative
311
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 21:16:00 -
[56] - Quote
Ugleb wrote:Or, they could follow your lead and blindly insist that there are no underlying issues surrounding this event and that Gallente society has flawlessly integrated many millions of immigrants in only a few years, miraculously eliminating any and all sources of racial tension.
While I don't think you could ever say that any people as a whole are "flawlessly integrated" into the Federation, the historically-minded among us will notice that most of the Federation Matari have been living in the Federation for generations, and that they've in general managed to be integrated quite nicely. They're a huge segment of the Federation, making up a number of extremely powerful voting blocs, living everywhere from fully integrated metropolises to relatively monoracial enclaves. They enjoy greater standards of living, on average, than citizens of the Republic. They are free to follow their tribal culture - or not - as they choose. With that in mind...
Ugleb wrote:I suspect that the Bloody Hand may now be finding new recruits among the Minmatar population within the Federation.
...I'm very curious about your reasoning for making that statement.
Bio and writing |
James Syagrius
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly
479
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 21:20:00 -
[57] - Quote
Ugleb wrote:[I suspect that the Bloody Hand may now be finding new recruits among the Minmatar population within the Federation. The Gallente should be considering this possibility and asking why this may now be the case and what they could do to change opinions and address the problem at an early stage. Its not often a gift such as you comes along.
Your basic argument is "tolerate our stupidity or we will hurt you."
Excellent absolutely excellent. I hope the body politic withing the Federation are listening.
But don't fret, I assure you the "tribal problem" within the Federation has been carefully considered. GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
http://syagrius-eve.blogspot.com/
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Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
1581
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 22:00:00 -
[58] - Quote
Ugleb wrote:Despite her failings as a leader, despite her failure to realise her potential as a Ray of Matar....
She did not fail as a leader. Her people simply failed at following her. Nullsec in a Nutshell: http://nedroid.com/comics/2006-08-24-2155-arrrdino.gif |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1281
|
Posted - 2013.07.28 05:12:00 -
[59] - Quote
Well, I have just come out of a Personnel meeting where I formally authorised the cancellation of the employment contracts of fifteen workers of Matari ethnicity because sufficient background checks could not be run to meet the minimum standards now required to ensure workplace safety and security.
So, that's fifteen lives subject to uncertainty and upheaval. Matari lives.
Except the cost is higher than that, because eight of those fifteen were married. So make that 23 Lives... Oh, plus the ten dependeant children, of course. So make that 33 people. Of course it's the children who'll suffer the most - yanked out of their schooling, deprived of their food, cut off from their medical care. |
Maris Verdure
Ataraxia Pharmacies
1
|
Posted - 2013.07.28 13:28:00 -
[60] - Quote
Gosakumori Noh wrote:Let's see: But with recent State-side developments, the pressure has let up a bit on the Federation's military-industrial complex, hasn't it? That could lead to, you know, peace and budget cuts.
A few reminders for voters, now and then, that there remains a threat.... oh, Matari "terrorists!" Perfect!
Y'know, you're kinda scary to me because I'm not sure you're even in the same region as sane, but I think you do get things that it seems other folks miss.
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