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Deacan Wildfire
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Posted - 2005.12.06 20:56:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Deacan Wildfire on 06/12/2005 20:59:33
CCP are really starting to rake it in now, and they can be damn proud of how far they've come from back in pre-release, when everything was on the line.
Now we're seeing EVE attract pretty hefty crowds of players from other mmorpgs, ones that could be described as generic mmorpgs, ones that seem to be acting as gateways to the less hyped but far better realm of decent mmorpgs. On the one hand, this is fantastic; the universe is really starting to grow now and the game feels bigger than ever before. There's a big downside though.
A lot of people coming from these mmorpgs are looking for their second-ever mmorpg. They tasted wow/swg/gw and became aware of the joys of mmorpgs, but realized it was lacking something essential, and as such started looking elsewhere. Some of these people are coming to Eve, and expecting to find a WoW + 1, and getting annoyed that this is actually a completely different game. Anyone who checks the forums a few times a week will have noticed the recent increase in threads about the death penalty being too harsh, pvp being too risky to be fun, and cries for battleground-esque instances/deadspace zones to be implemented. Basically, these people are screaming for more instant gratification, completely unaware that such changes would completely destroy what makes Eve so special.
Anyone who played Ultima Online back in good ol' days may well share the opinion that the spirit of the game was killed off by OSI removing large elements of risk, player-interaction and challenge, by introducing hugely restrictive gameplay mechanics that favoured people with weak hearts. This was an outrage at the time because the only reason the game had grown so big was because of the PKs and anti-PKs that loved the game so much, as well as the craftsmen, hunters et al that just enjoyed the idea of being in a world where there was risk, a real world where there were ups and downs and not just one unfaltering line of contentment. Everquest, Asherons Call and a few other mainstream mmorpgs came along, boosting interest/knowledge of mmorpgs, and suddenly flooding UO with new players who really should have read the back of the box before firing up an account. Not long later, trammel was released and the game was ruined: It became a cheap and graphically inferior Everquest, played only by those who either didn't know better or didn't want to admit to themselves that the game they loved had changed so severely.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who's seeing an uncanny similarity between EVE's current situation, and Ultima Online's pre-trammel situation. We have the pirates and the Anti-pirates, and the craftsman and the miners and the ratters, all who've made the game what it is today and all whose monthly payments have kept CCP afloat, and all who are playing Eve because it's one of a kind.
So I've been getting a bit worried by all these threads, some reaching 5-6 pages and clearly getting the devs' attention. It won't be long now (if it isn't already happening) before the money really starts to wave itself in front of CCP's face. The money is screaming at them to bring out a patch that makes this game cater to the casual, instant-gratificating grind-loving drone, because it would guarentee huge sales figures and mansions (with pools) for every CCP employee.
In a years time, will Eve still have its pvp rush, will it still have its profound politics and kill-or-be-killed 0.0 landscape, will giant fleets of ships still clash daily in endless wars over resources and terretory, where every single player - from the miner to the manufacturer, the scout to the ganker, the leader to the tackler - has their role to play for the good of their alliance? Or will everyone be queuing to get into a battleground, with 0.0 space empty and the economy hyperinflating, with nobodies flying around in titans because they grinded enough?
I've written way too much. My plea is simple: Don't sell your game's soul
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DW
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Katchoo
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Posted - 2005.12.06 21:29:00 -
[2]
Really a nice post Wildfire 
I've come to EVE leaving Ultima Online, looking for something better than the collect the new music tunes that's last news there...
Wish might have gotten into the way, but luckily for CCP it was cancelled while in beta 
Well, I like EVE the way it is, thankyouverymuch 
Keep up the good work, and don't listen to much to people whining and threatening to leave - they apparently never do, or we'd see a lot less of them around 
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Remedial
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Posted - 2005.12.06 21:30:00 -
[3]
When CCP installs automatic insurance on T1 modules and makes low security gates autofire at pirates, we'll say that they've "Gone Trammel" 
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Tarack
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Posted - 2005.12.06 22:39:00 -
[4]
Wish wouldnt have hurt EVE much, what it would have destroyed is EQ and EQ2.
BTW Wish still lives, the makers of Irth Online bought the WISH DB and all. You can see all the cool WISH stuff in that game. But also, sadly, they killed it. What could have been, will die again ......
( Wish Alpha - Death tester )
As i see EVE atm, It seems to me the devs are doing ANYTHING and EVERYTHING to get people out of high sec space and into 00. The only problem is, most have no 00 ambitions. CCP has to face the facts, there are more "solo" type players in the game, than all those die hard pvp corps. Most small corps are like this. To each his own i guess.
I wouldnt want to see CCP make the game any easier or harder. They must keep the balance no matter what the whiner's want. ( empire and 00 whiners )
Now about that raven missle nerf......
WTS: 1 Ex-wife, slightly used. Fully equiped, includes, My house, my car, my dog and my new ex girlfriend................. |
Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2005.12.06 22:45:00 -
[5]
Very nice post and agreed.
I'm slightly scared they have already started down the slippery slope of "no conseqences" death with the clone malarkey.
The day the game becomes risk free is the day I track down the servers and put a toothpick in the hamster wheels
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Mercade
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Posted - 2005.12.06 22:45:00 -
[6]
Very well said. It seems common that game designers feel evolution means a perpetual change towards the standard when I believe it's the opposite.
It is through the ambition to create something extrodinarily different and in it's success maintain that difference that true evolution occurs.
A sports car extended to hold 4 and slowed for better mileage does not a better sports car make. Yet forever there will be people who do not embrace the limitations of that sports car for the expense and thrill of the ride.
Likewise the simple rush you get when faced with potential loss in EVE is not encouraged to happen more often if the loss is removed so that combat occurs more often.
Hold to your original ideas, be strong in the face of a huge community convinced they know what's right when the success of MMO's supposedly catering to the masses has been horrible for 4 years now.
CCP can do it. They are the right devs for the job. To qoute the reason I think that, well that's another thread.
"Boobies!"
Originally by: kieron
...possible causes for an extended downtime, I think playing WoW would be close to the bottom of the list, probably between shaving cats and having dental work done w/o anethesia. |
Deacan Wildfire
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Posted - 2005.12.06 22:46:00 -
[7]
Yeah, it's weird... I reckon one of the best traits a dev can have, is the ability to completely ignore their game's community when it comes to balance and most major changes. With games like these, you just need to have an idea and stick to it, no matter what the masses say. Because as we've seen all over the world, what's popular is rarely what's best.
And I get the impression CCP are more concerned with making a truly great game, than the one with the most subscriptions. Which is a very good sign.
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.12.06 22:52:00 -
[8]
dunno project rebirth seems like a step in the wrong direction... but I'll see how it plays out.
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xeom
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Posted - 2005.12.07 00:02:00 -
[9]
Great post bro,CCP should really keep the balance it has now.At most they should make agent missions more fun,and thats it.If CCP ever added a BG type system i would cancel my account.And would try to take as many people with me!
But yea keep going on course guys don't change.
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Gonada
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Posted - 2005.12.07 00:12:00 -
[10]
Now this , should be made a sticky and every new person to the game read it.
i was there for uo, i saw the best game ever changed to a carebear land of boringness, and indifferance. thank god i left it when trammel went up.
ever since i searched for a game that held the same risk, excitement and fun , found it once again in eve....
hope eve never fades
-I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.-
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Chinsor
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Posted - 2005.12.07 00:14:00 -
[11]
excellent post
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Ilmonstre
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Posted - 2005.12.07 00:17:00 -
[12]
Originally by: SengH
dunno project rebirth seems like a step in the wrong direction... but I'll see how it plays out.
naah not really as they have adjusted it.
you need a standing of atleast 8 and it is not possible in a npc station.
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Cavy Dan
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Posted - 2005.12.07 00:25:00 -
[13]
I agree with the first poster. Never sell the Game's soul.
I need it too much.
*slaps a belt around the arm and injects som Eve*
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Moridin
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Posted - 2005.12.07 00:25:00 -
[14]
signed |
Mydrial Jacor
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Posted - 2005.12.07 00:36:00 -
[15]
Agreed, for the record I feel eve needs more risks at the minute and less cushions. The day the risk is taken from eve is the day I leave and never look back.
[Offering Freighter Service]
Will deliver any legal goods to any high sec system.
Fee is 500k per jump from pickup location(s) to destination.
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Montague Zooma
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Posted - 2005.12.07 00:39:00 -
[16]
I suspect CCP will do whatever makes the most economic sense for them.
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Azuriel Talloth
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Posted - 2005.12.07 00:43:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Deacan Wildfire
In a years time, will Eve still have its pvp rush, will it still have its profound politics and kill-or-be-killed 0.0 landscape, will giant fleets of ships still clash daily in endless wars over resources and terretory, where every single player - from the miner to the manufacturer, the scout to the ganker, the leader to the tackler - has their role to play for the good of their alliance?
That paragraph sums up why I love Eve better than I ever could. Well said, and I hope the devs stay true to their vision. Based on how things are going currently, I doubt we will have reason to be disappointed
________________
"Pain is an illusion of the flesh. Despair is an illusion of the mind." |
Azuriel Talloth
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Posted - 2005.12.07 00:45:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Ilmonstre
Originally by: SengH
dunno project rebirth seems like a step in the wrong direction... but I'll see how it plays out.
naah not really as they have adjusted it.
you need a standing of atleast 8 and it is not possible in a npc station.
Yup their tactic of "pre-nerfing" potentially disruptive new gameplay elements works great to preserve the overall balance.
________________
"Pain is an illusion of the flesh. Despair is an illusion of the mind." |
Limpporpoise
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Posted - 2005.12.07 00:54:00 -
[19]
This is my first mmorpg, I'm not sure what the consequence free death is in mmorpg, but I'm pretty sure the idea doesn't appeal.
You sit in dock with the enemy outside, they have you out-numbered and conered, you have a couple of corp mates there with you willing to fight, you know what a loss would mean to you and you know what it would mean to them, your cursor hovers over the undock command.
Anyone who has been here will know how that feels. Removing the consequences of death; of your actions will remove many of the reasons I'm still here, for me it would remove the consequences of life (only in game of course :P). I won't get the same experience from combat - all I would have to compare it with are FPS, where death is new guns and a better starting position. You won't get the same respect for corp mates who have fought and died side by side. Sure, combat would happen more often if there was no consequence but the experience would be cheapend.
I'm only a couple of months past my first Birthday in EVE, when I started, insurance on ships was already available, for me this has always been the case. I read a post the other day where a player mentioned he was here when insurance was first brought in, he seemed to think it was the end to Eve has he knew it, he seemed to think it was a bad step, as I read, I disagreed, but thinking further I can see his point.
I know players who will sit in dock as their corp mates die, to save valuable implants, this is their way through EVE. Some people think that that EVE is all about PVP, (it is the reason I am here, the reason I grind to get isk is to facilitate this) for others it's all about the isk, and PVP is something to be avoided at all costs.
PVPers will want the the consequence of death to stay the same or be increased, people who play the game (as far as I can see) as a glorified calculator (carebears) will want the consequences decreased.
There is a place for all of us, I'm sure CCP realise this and can keep some kind of balance, a game where greatly experienced players can play on the same server as fresh out the packet players is always going to be tricky to pull off. I have faith in the Devs, they are never going to please all the players all the time, just as long as they don't try to please the majority all the time will be fine by me.
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Commisar
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Posted - 2005.12.07 00:55:00 -
[20]
This thread must never die.
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Thomdril Merrilin
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Posted - 2005.12.07 01:10:00 -
[21]
Excellent post.
Originally by: Oveur
EVE Online - even the forums have PVP 
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Wanoah
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Posted - 2005.12.07 01:12:00 -
[22]
Quote:
I'm slightly scared they have already started down the slippery slope of "no conseqences" death with the clone malarkey.
You're not alone with that concern, not least because I'm not convinced that it will fix the perceived problem and will run counter to the gate changes of the Cold War patch.
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Beringe
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Posted - 2005.12.07 01:14:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Montague Zooma
I suspect CCP will do whatever makes the most economic sense for them.
I wouldn't be so sure, if I were you. These guys take real pride in their game.
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Sometimes, I wake up but keep on dreaming. |
Auraurious
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Posted - 2005.12.07 01:28:00 -
[24]
Can't think of anything else to say so:
Signed!
__________________________
Hmmm... Im having trouble thinking of a signature. |
Deacan Wildfire
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Posted - 2005.12.07 01:30:00 -
[25]
Yeah, full-on carebears really don't have any place in eve (that almost sounds racist or something?), short of completely banning pvp across the universe, giving free 100% insurance, etc etc. But still, Eve easily supports the largest "spectrum" of playertypes: From the guy who plays Eve 23 hours a day and wants to remove insurance and add a random chance for your ship to spontaneously combust at any time, to the guy who ends up in hospital the first time he's attacked in a belt, but has an adrenal-gland transplant and is back mining again the next day. Anyone more carebear than that and they'll play until the point they get killed at a belt in 0.4, and then either a)quit the game or b)rant on the forums and eventually quit the game.
Hmm, I can only really think of one other mainstream MMORPG that had such a wide spectrum of players. Yeah, UO before trammel.
Seems all the other mmorpgs out there are extremely focused on only a few playertypes: WoW, and to a lesser extent EQ2 for the carebear market, and games like Shadowbane and classic Everquest for the hardcore niche. Heh, yeah, I reckon the original EQ was hardcore when it first came out. Evil death penalties, very few forms of instantaneous travel, ugly graphics, tedious as hell.. Yeah, you had to be pretty hardcore to play that, even though no/little pvp was involved. I guess that might be a way to convince WoW Battleground fiends that they arn't "hardcore" just because they PvP all day. Seriously, battlegrounds were just blizzard not being bothered to add more monster models or something, so they just made everyone grind against each other all day instead.
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DW
ps. I'm not saying that all the players who want to change eve for the worse are also carebears. Some people just simply don't have the right idea about what makes a good mmorpg.
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Snake Jankins
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Posted - 2005.12.07 02:42:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Snake Jankins on 07/12/2005 02:43:38
/signed
Since I don't have to add anything to your EVE analysis and /signed is a bit short for a post, I comment on the weak pvp approach of WoW a bit. Maybe it prevents from doing similar mistakes in EVE.
Originally by: Deacan Wildfire
Seriously, battlegrounds were just blizzard not being bothered to add more monster models or something, so they just made everyone grind against each other all day instead.
WoW is a masterpiece of bad pvp design for a game:
- the underlying concept is basically non-pvp: Horde and alliance are just quest running in the same areas across the map after they hit level 20.
- Blizzard added some pvp in the form that they allowed people to kill eachother, but there were no goals in pvp e.g. nothing to conquer etc., so either people were whining about being ganked or about lack of pvp content.
- because of the design that quest runners / carebears have to be able to travel through the whole WoW world freely to be able to level-up, Blizzard couldn't implement the idea of player controlled or contested territory in the existing game world.
=> Blizzard moved pvp'ers from the normal game world to the battle grounds, the ultimate non-mmorpg solution imho !
Result: Quest runners grinding to level 60 outside, pvp'ers playing team deathmatch or capture the flag and grinding honor points in BG. No reason for pvp besides killing for points, no real story based pvp conflict between horde and alliance etc.
I had some fun playing WoW like doing the 40 people instances, but the PvP implemention in WoW is a joke. One group of wow players just consumes the npc and quest content that Blizzard creates, the other part plays some pvp mini game in the battlegrounds.
It's the ultra soft version of a mmorpg for people, who fear the conflict with other people and it's for people who just want to consume content or score in pvp.
=> Imho a world without player conflicts, politics, a way for the player to change the world etc. isn't a world. => WoW is no virtual world, except count a static world as a world.
=> People like me get bored. I didn't grind BG a lot in WoW, if I wanto to score I rather play Quake, but I have done most of the content inclusively Ragnaros a few times, my char is lvl.60 with 13 parts epic equipment etc.
The lack of player conflict and lack of means to have an influence on the game world just made me leave. That's why I play EVE again. EVE is the opposite and I hope that it stays that way.
___________
'Only ships can be assembled, this is a Frigate.' |
Kula Alpha
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Posted - 2005.12.07 03:17:00 -
[27]
In the MMO universe, there are more PvE players than PvP. As noted above, EVE does a remarkable job of spanning the two styles. I think part of the reason for the expansion of the player base was the increase in the complexity of the industrial roles, which was done without messing up the PvP experience.
I suspect that one reason that fewer players than expected are moving into 0.0 is gate camping. It seems as if 0.1 through 0.4 low sec space should offer a smooth introduction to 0.0; NPC's progressively tougher, ores change, etc. But gate ganking can make the step out of 0.5 to 0.4 a rilly rilly big one, more like going from 0.5 to 0.0. I've read that this is a matter of real concern for CCP, and I think correctly so.
So the tight rope to be walked is to continue to increase the game's attraction for PvE'ers without ruining the PvP experience, and hopefully improving that too, and making the transition to 0.0 a smoother path.
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Himo Amasacia
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Posted - 2005.12.07 03:40:00 -
[28]
Well said.
Btw I dont think its just a problem with MMPORGs. I Played Diablo 2 for a long time with friends, and slowly despared as each patch "corrected" stuff by making the characters tougher and tougher, and the rest just drained away from it. Massive hoards of monsters that before were tearing us apart were bieng chopped down like wheat. It bored the crap out of me very rapidly.
CCP should take this post and stick it on their wall.
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Erised Eman
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Posted - 2005.12.07 07:33:00 -
[29]
I really agree with the points in this thread. I played Ultima Online from 98 untill this year, in the end I would log in and not do anything, pvp had become worthless due to item insurance and crafting had become a complete waste of time. I came to eve a while then left for WOW. At first it was a blast on a PVP server, then I realised it was more boring then UO. I lost nothing for dying, and I gained nothing for winning a fight.
Eve.... Running blockaides, gate campers and being able to craft things that ppl with pay isk for. Are my book marks good? Will I get webbed at the gate and lose a hauler full of Megacyte? That to me is action.
Take away the risk for me, and I might as well play a single player game that I can save and reload when I mess up. Sometimes the things that make you yell at your monitor and smash you keyboard/mouse in frustraition are the things that keep you coming back day after day, year after year.
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DaMiGe
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Posted - 2005.12.07 09:39:00 -
[30]
I totally agree with the posters opinion.
People play eve becouse its diffrent then the other MMO's.
If CCP removes the immense losses when losing a ship im sure they will lose most of the pvpers in the game.(me for 1)
The pvp in eve is so thrilling becouse of the risks that you have doing the stuff that you do.
Keep improving the game, add content, fix the bugs, whatever, but DONT E V E R, change PVP,shard or make instances.
my 2 cents
---> My vids <---
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