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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Asakura Manji
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
0
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Posted - 2013.06.30 15:52:00 -
[1] - Quote
Are ships that have 13 charges in their ASB from before the capacity nerf was implemented allowed? |
sevyn nine
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
22
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Posted - 2013.06.30 22:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
It would be ridiculous if they are allowed (it definitely goes against the spirit of a fair fight), but it would also be tough to check for this. |
Professor Clio
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
214
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Posted - 2013.07.01 01:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
Of course they're allowed. Why shouldn't they? It's not any more unfair than allowing AT prize ships for that same point cost as normal ships, is it? |
Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
6831
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Posted - 2013.07.01 09:35:00 -
[4] - Quote
I agree with clio on this one, this should be allowed! |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
6610
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Posted - 2013.07.01 15:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
After some discussion internally we have decided to allow the legacy overloaded ASBs to be used in the tournament legally.
It's simply another method where collectibles can be used for moderate gain in a tournament environment. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch DarkSide.
84
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Posted - 2013.07.02 05:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
In that case, WTS two sleipnirs with 13-charge XL-ASB each. |
Destoya
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
111
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Posted - 2013.07.02 06:07:00 -
[7] - Quote
This is a terrible idea fozzie |
Nico Aristaeus
The Vendunari End of Life
9
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Posted - 2013.07.02 12:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
I agree with Destoya. This is terrible. Not being able to tell wether it is legacy or not throws the balance even more than just having to deal with the extra tank. Also, we cannot test against it as we cannot pick up these legacy ASB boats on the test server, contrary to collectables. Please reconsider. There are two types of people: People that can extrapolate from incomplete data. |
Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
289
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Posted - 2013.07.02 12:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
Most of listed complaints apply to flagships too, i guess. |
Nico Aristaeus
The Vendunari End of Life
9
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Posted - 2013.07.02 13:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
Well, there is only 1 flagship we have to take into account. I would not like an extra shitstorm in terms of unknown tank range on the field. There are two types of people: People that can extrapolate from incomplete data. |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
781
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Posted - 2013.07.02 15:09:00 -
[11] - Quote
Some excellent points brought up in this thread that we hadn't fully considered, specifically that overloaded ASBs cannot be seen nor practiced against.
However, there are some technical barriers in the way of us enforcing a no-overfull-modules rule - the same kind of barriers that are the reason overfull modules are allowed to exist in the first place. If I manage to get through the work I need to clear off in order for us to have a tournament, I will dedicate some time to finding a way around those issues.
So, as things currently stand, they will be allowed. If I get my tournament work done ahead of schedule, that will likely change. In any case, their status will not change once the tournament has begun.
We understand that this uncertainty complicates preparation for teams who have overfull modules at their disposal. We will communicate the status of this as the situation progresses and will reach a solid conclusion as soon as we can. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
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Arch Stanton's Neighbour
Forceful Resource Acquisition Inc
62
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Posted - 2013.07.02 16:12:00 -
[12] - Quote
I distinctly recall more than a couple forum posts on the WTB section looking for ships with overloaded ASBs soon after the nerf that were explicitly to be used on the AT. Also shortly after the nerf was announced people discussed stockpiling those ships for such purposes.
Therefore IMHO anyone lacking them didn't really pay attention or care, so cry moar, HTFU, etc. |
Logical Chaos
Justmore
13
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Posted - 2013.07.02 16:16:00 -
[13] - Quote
Money has always won tournaments or why have I never seen a known poor alliance at the top?
Some Officer Bhaalgorns would like to have a word with you regarding small and "poor" alliances being able to afford them. But yes you can prepare for that (i.e. get ready to be stomped by officer neut/webbing bhaal). Easy fix for 13 ASB Ships:
Simply make a rule that 13 ASB Ships have to be announced just like Flagships. There you go. |
Nico Aristaeus
The Vendunari End of Life
9
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Posted - 2013.07.02 16:52:00 -
[14] - Quote
Arch Stanton's Neighbour wrote:I distinctly recall more than a couple forum posts on the WTB section looking for ships with overloaded ASBs soon after the nerf that were explicitly to be used on the AT. Also shortly after the nerf was announced people discussed stockpiling those ships for such purposes.
Therefore IMHO anyone lacking them didn't really pay attention or care, so cry moar, HTFU, etc. Fair point but it turns the AT into a meta game. Furthermore there may well be teams that did not know at nerf time they would participate. Also, why so rude? There are two types of people: People that can extrapolate from incomplete data. |
Logical Chaos
Justmore
13
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Posted - 2013.07.02 16:53:00 -
[15] - Quote
Nico Aristaeus wrote:Arch Stanton's Neighbour wrote:I distinctly recall more than a couple forum posts on the WTB section looking for ships with overloaded ASBs soon after the nerf that were explicitly to be used on the AT. Also shortly after the nerf was announced people discussed stockpiling those ships for such purposes.
Therefore IMHO anyone lacking them didn't really pay attention or care, so cry moar, HTFU, etc. Fair point but it turns the AT into a meta game. Furthermore there may well be teams that did not know at nerf time they would participate. Also, why so rude?
AT is probably the biggest Meta event in EVE? Its all about spying on enemy tactics, setups, players and the connected weaknesses all while hiding your own tactics and setups from everyone else. |
Nico Aristaeus
The Vendunari End of Life
9
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Posted - 2013.07.02 19:16:00 -
[16] - Quote
Logical Chaos wrote:Nico Aristaeus wrote:Arch Stanton's Neighbour wrote:I distinctly recall more than a couple forum posts on the WTB section looking for ships with overloaded ASBs soon after the nerf that were explicitly to be used on the AT. Also shortly after the nerf was announced people discussed stockpiling those ships for such purposes.
Therefore IMHO anyone lacking them didn't really pay attention or care, so cry moar, HTFU, etc. Fair point but it turns the AT into a meta game. Furthermore there may well be teams that did not know at nerf time they would participate. Also, why so rude? AT is probably the biggest Meta event in EVE? Its all about spying on enemy tactics, setups, players and the connected weaknesses all while hiding your own tactics and setups from everyone else. Well sure, lets assume you are right. Then still it does not mean that a higher degree of meta gaming by adding crap into the mix is better. There are two types of people: People that can extrapolate from incomplete data. |
Logical Chaos
Justmore
13
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Posted - 2013.07.02 19:22:00 -
[17] - Quote
Nico Aristaeus wrote:Logical Chaos wrote:Nico Aristaeus wrote:Arch Stanton's Neighbour wrote:I distinctly recall more than a couple forum posts on the WTB section looking for ships with overloaded ASBs soon after the nerf that were explicitly to be used on the AT. Also shortly after the nerf was announced people discussed stockpiling those ships for such purposes.
Therefore IMHO anyone lacking them didn't really pay attention or care, so cry moar, HTFU, etc. Fair point but it turns the AT into a meta game. Furthermore there may well be teams that did not know at nerf time they would participate. Also, why so rude? AT is probably the biggest Meta event in EVE? Its all about spying on enemy tactics, setups, players and the connected weaknesses all while hiding your own tactics and setups from everyone else. Well sure, lets assume you are right. Then still it does not mean that a higher degree of meta gaming by adding crap into the mix is better.
You do realize, that EVE is so fun and different from all those other MMOs because of all the Meta involved? Else it would just be another MMO.
Anyway. If those ships are not allowed please be consistent and forbid usage of any limited edition ships including AT rewards. Also ditch that flag ship rule with officer fittings.
The "can not be seen" advantage can easily be neglected by having people announce that they have 13 charge ASBs loaded at the beginning of the match. People do not get more time to recognize the flagship as well. |
Nico Aristaeus
The Vendunari End of Life
9
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Posted - 2013.07.02 19:38:00 -
[18] - Quote
Logical Chaos wrote:Nico Aristaeus wrote:Logical Chaos wrote:Nico Aristaeus wrote:Arch Stanton's Neighbour wrote:I distinctly recall more than a couple forum posts on the WTB section looking for ships with overloaded ASBs soon after the nerf that were explicitly to be used on the AT. Also shortly after the nerf was announced people discussed stockpiling those ships for such purposes.
Therefore IMHO anyone lacking them didn't really pay attention or care, so cry moar, HTFU, etc. Fair point but it turns the AT into a meta game. Furthermore there may well be teams that did not know at nerf time they would participate. Also, why so rude? AT is probably the biggest Meta event in EVE? Its all about spying on enemy tactics, setups, players and the connected weaknesses all while hiding your own tactics and setups from everyone else. Well sure, lets assume you are right. Then still it does not mean that a higher degree of meta gaming by adding crap into the mix is better. You do realize, that EVE is so fun and different from all those other MMOs because of all the Meta involved? Else it would just be another MMO. Anyway. If those ships are not allowed please be consistent and forbid usage of any limited edition ships including AT rewards. Also ditch that flag ship rule with officer fittings. The "can not be seen" advantage can easily be neglected by having people announce that they have 13 charge ASBs loaded at the beginning of the match. People do not get more time to recognize the flagship as well. Well, your last suggestions would be in line with the affordable for everyone kind of mindset CCP went with for this tourney. However, you still have not refuted the not being able to train against it part and I am also not convinced by your meta reasoning. Surely this game is fun and meta gaming makes it more fun. This does not imply that a higher degree of meta gaming is going to improve the game mechanic. The ASB introduction was a muck up as it was much too strong. The way I see it we are going to feel the remnants of this muck up on one of CCP's poster events more than a year after. Assuming we are not going to find common ground lets just respectfully disagree. There are two types of people: People that can extrapolate from incomplete data. |
Logical Chaos
Justmore
13
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Posted - 2013.07.02 19:51:00 -
[19] - Quote
Well the main thing that made ASB insanely strong were those dual ASB fits with Crystals, Drugs and T3 Bonuses.
This effectively allowed solo players to circumvent the crazy 60second reload time by having a) more boosts through crystals and drugs b) a second ASB for those 60 seconds
basically making the ship invulnerable as long as it had cap charges.
In the AT people will not have crystals and Drugs (they will likely also not field a Command T3 but a Command Ship which gives slightly lesser boosts).
Of course this does not leave the fact untouched that the 13charge ASB stays roughly twice as good as the old ASB. Compared to Tournament Reward Ships its quite a small thing imo. |
Nico Aristaeus
The Vendunari End of Life
9
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Posted - 2013.07.02 20:04:00 -
[20] - Quote
Logical Chaos wrote:Well the main thing that made ASB insanely strong were those dual ASB fits with Crystals, Drugs and T3 Bonuses.
This effectively allowed solo players to circumvent the crazy 60second reload time by having a) more boosts through crystals and drugs b) a second ASB for those 60 seconds
basically making the ship invulnerable as long as it had cap charges.
In the AT people will not have crystals and Drugs (they will likely also not field a Command T3 but a Command Ship which gives slightly lesser boosts).
Of course this does not leave the fact untouched that the 13charge ASB stays roughly twice as good as the old ASB. Compared to Tournament Reward Ships its quite a small thing imo. Yeah I agree. I am just worried we will see a lot of one-sided matches involving shield fleets that might have been less one-sided without the 13ASB with a possibility that you might not be able to tell the difference between ships. I do not know if removing the 13ASB would radically change fleet compositions. Obviously AT price ships do radiacally change fleet compositions. There are two types of people: People that can extrapolate from incomplete data. |
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Logical Chaos
Justmore
13
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Posted - 2013.07.02 20:17:00 -
[21] - Quote
We will see a lot of one-sided matches.
But that is because those winning teams put in the necessary dedication for this.
I have been flying in AT9 once (Raiden vs Darkside) and I took part in Test Realm Trainings like twice before. And you obviously see the difference in dedication. ISK was not an issue there even.
And those teams that have the dedication also have the ISK to back their dedication up with the proper fittings. 13 or 8 charge ASBs won't change a lot there. |
Mawderator
The Pro Choice Exodus.
26
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Posted - 2013.07.02 21:43:00 -
[22] - Quote
As a tournament captain who has access to a small stockpile of 13 charge ASB ships, I'd much rather not see them used in the tournament for the reasons that Destoya listed. |
Thecla Elarik
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
22
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Posted - 2013.07.02 22:08:00 -
[23] - Quote
Agreeing with Destoya - if you can find any way of keeping 13-charge ASB's out, please do. |
Nico Aristaeus
The Vendunari End of Life
9
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Posted - 2013.07.02 22:09:00 -
[24] - Quote
Logical Chaos wrote:We will see a lot of one-sided matches.
But that is because those winning teams put in the necessary dedication for this.
I have been flying in AT9 once (Raiden vs Darkside) and I took part in Test Realm Trainings like twice before. And you obviously see the difference in dedication. ISK was not an issue there even.
And those teams that have the dedication also have the ISK to back their dedication up with the proper fittings. 13 or 8 charge ASBs won't change a lot there. Well I respect your input but what you are saying is anecdotal at best and it is a crappy assumption. What you basically say is that teams with more isk will have more dedication and will be objectively better anyway. That is 3 variables in one argument that have to go your way to be right. Secondly, if this is true, why is there any need for over powered gear if you are going to pulpmash the enemy anyway? What sentiment are you trying to defend because I don't get it.
edit: dedication Gëá wealth There are two types of people: People that can extrapolate from incomplete data. |
Logical Chaos
Justmore
13
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Posted - 2013.07.02 22:26:00 -
[25] - Quote
Nico Aristaeus wrote:Logical Chaos wrote:We will see a lot of one-sided matches.
But that is because those winning teams put in the necessary dedication for this.
I have been flying in AT9 once (Raiden vs Darkside) and I took part in Test Realm Trainings like twice before. And you obviously see the difference in dedication. ISK was not an issue there even.
And those teams that have the dedication also have the ISK to back their dedication up with the proper fittings. 13 or 8 charge ASBs won't change a lot there. Well I respect your input but what you are saying is anecdotal at best and it is a crappy assumption. What you basically say is that teams with more isk will have more dedication and will be objectively better anyway. That is 3 variables in one argument that have to go your way to be right. Secondly, if this is true, why is there any need for over powered gear if you are going to pulpmash the enemy anyway? What sentiment are you trying to defend because I don't get it. edit: dedication Gëá wealth
It was not meant to showcase anything and merely an example.
It is the other way round: Those teams with dedication are not limited by their available ISK. Your second part is basically denying the definition of dedication: If you are dedicated you will do everything to assure you are winning. This goes from tactics etc to assuring you bring the best possible ships for the job. You do not risk anything by flying the second best fit or ship for the job.
Recent tournament winners second this statement.
EDIT: Anyway, I think it's a pointless discussion now. Everybody probably has his opinion on this matter. CCP shall judge this, but if they really want to forbid this (an announced change, giving everybody the chance to prepare - and if you did not think about it back then, you probably do not deserve winning AT anyway), then they better remove flagships as well as fancy limited edition ships for this decision to be consistent. |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
781
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Posted - 2013.07.02 23:28:00 -
[26] - Quote
Logical Chaos wrote:they better remove flagships as well as fancy limited edition ships for this decision to be consistent. I do not follow your logic, can you lay it out? CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
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Destoya
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
115
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Posted - 2013.07.03 01:26:00 -
[27] - Quote
I think what he's trying to say is that the rich teams already have an advantage in tier 3 faction ammo, unique tournament ships, and better flagship modules (hint: they dont mean anything if you dont use them effectively, see PL's ATX match), so overloaded ASB are fine.
Just by the way, I did some math with a Sleipnir being repped by a scimitar against a team with 4000 DPS to better illustrate the advantage of overloaded ASBs, which I find is a quite reasonable situation to find oneself in. EHP numbers are after all charges of ASB, and also without overheating the scimi's reps.
Balanced Sleip has 147.9k EHP and takes 76 seconds to die Overloaded Sleip has 186.1k EHP and takes 97 seconds to die
overheating the scimi makes the disparity slightly worse, increasing the "death gap" to almost 25 seconds. A team with lower applied DPS also sees the overheated sleipnir come farther ahead as it can rely less on the ASB charges. Remember in that ~20-25 seconds said sleipnir and the rest of the team is dealing massive amounts of damage, and the number keeps increasing as that 4000 DPS is whittled away.
By the way, I do not find the argument that people who didn't keep old ships in their hangars were not "dedicated" to winning the tournament compelling, especially since said ships were just a result of CCP's inability to implement balance changes retroactively in certain scenarios.
I would like to point out that this ruling actually favors my team, as we have the capability to actually attain them when the others on the way up the ladder may lack the memberbase, connections, financial means, or "dedication" to obtain overloaded ships. Still, I am trying to convince CCP to reverse this in whatever way possible as I feel it's quite detrimental to the quality of the tournament as a whole for the reasons I outlined here and on the first page. (Just so you know, I personally would have no real problem if they banned prize ships, tier 3 ammo, augmented drones, and deadspace/officer modules on flagships (faction is still reasonable I think))
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Admiral Goberius
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
14
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Posted - 2013.07.03 02:38:00 -
[28] - Quote
take it to the next level
hide a bunch of 18 charge sleipnirs scattered across eve and let the most dedicated find them
step it up CCP |
Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch DarkSide.
85
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Posted - 2013.07.03 05:21:00 -
[29] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Logical Chaos wrote:they better remove flagships as well as fancy limited edition ships for this decision to be consistent. I do not follow your logic, can you lay it out?
Hopefully that's sarcasm, Veritas.
Both legacy ASB and AT prize ships are: 1. Significantly more powerful than other ships with the same number of points. 2. Relatively rare.
The difference is, of course that seeing a 13-charge ASB sleipnir explode is not as exciting as watching (say) a Mimir explode. I would argue, though, that this is irrelevant to making the tournament fair, which IMO is much more important. The other option to make it fair is to have these ships cost more (say 1 point). |
Logical Chaos
Justmore
13
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Posted - 2013.07.03 07:24:00 -
[30] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Logical Chaos wrote:they better remove flagships as well as fancy limited edition ships for this decision to be consistent. I do not follow your logic, can you lay it out?
Yeah it's hard to follow my logic, thats why I have this name!!!
Faffywaffy wrote: Hopefully that's sarcasm, Veritas.
Both legacy ASB and AT prize ships are: 1. Significantly more powerful than other ships with the same number of points. 2. Relatively rare.
The difference is, of course that seeing a 13-charge ASB sleipnir explode is not as exciting as watching (say) a Mimir explode. I would argue, though, that this is irrelevant to making the tournament fair, which IMO is much more important. The other option to make it fair is to have these ships cost more (say 1 point).
This pretty much.
All arguments against it are "esports-reasons" and for this to be a consistent decision the things I mentioned should also be forbidden.
It's like you initially said: It's a collectors item and there is no better use for it than in the AT. Because thats where everyone gives the most. This was a change that did not just happen when a patch came. It was announced. In EVE, preparation and dedication pay off: This means a team that started planning for the AT so long ago should be rewarded.
Forcing 13 charge ASB ships to be announced would be useful though. Which is easily done by forcing people to do so before the match starts, when everybody is inside the arena (basically the point of time, when you can see if the enemy is fielding a flag ship or not). |
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Nico Aristaeus
The Vendunari End of Life
9
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Posted - 2013.07.03 08:27:00 -
[31] - Quote
Faffywaffy wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Logical Chaos wrote:they better remove flagships as well as fancy limited edition ships for this decision to be consistent. I do not follow your logic, can you lay it out? Hopefully that's sarcasm, Veritas. Both legacy ASB and AT prize ships are: 1. Significantly more powerful than other ships with the same number of points. 2. Relatively rare. The difference is, of course that seeing a 13-charge ASB sleipnir explode is not as exciting as watching (say) a Mimir explode. I would argue, though, that this is irrelevant to making the tournament fair, which IMO is much more important. The other option to make it fair is to have these ships cost more (say 1 point). Another difference is that it is based on a broken mod. The others are ships. Do we really want to see a year old imbalance on a poster event? There are two types of people: People that can extrapolate from incomplete data. |
Capqu
Love Squad
125
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Posted - 2013.07.03 08:49:00 -
[32] - Quote
i like to think counting how many boosts someone has used and when to swap targets based on that is a bit of skill, this kind of throws a spanner in the works where you dont know you're against someone with an limited edition ship
at least with other limited edition ships you know what youre up against http://pizza.eve-kill.net |
Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
6832
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Posted - 2013.07.03 08:50:00 -
[33] - Quote
Logical, why do you look like me!? |
Logical Chaos
Justmore
14
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Posted - 2013.07.03 08:50:00 -
[34] - Quote
Capqu wrote:i like to think counting how many boosts someone has used and when to swap targets based on that is a bit of skill, this kind of throws a spanner in the works where you dont know you're against someone with an limited edition ship
at least with other limited edition ships you know what youre up against
fixes for this have been mentioned like naming Ships "13ASB" in the front of the name or having pilots announce it in local before the match starts.
Buhhdust Princess wrote:Logical, why do you look like me!?
Who would say such a thing ? |
Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
6832
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Posted - 2013.07.03 08:52:00 -
[35] - Quote
Copying me! :'( |
Lilli Tane
Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
7
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Posted - 2013.07.03 09:01:00 -
[36] - Quote
The big question here is not what is fair or what isnGÇÖt. It-¦s what CCP wants of the Tournament.
If what CCP wants, is a Meta Game show, then, well, I can say that ATIX final was probably the best we had, not very entertaining for the audience tough. If what CCP wants is a show of pilot skills and mastery of crafting the best possible fleet comps, then things like legacy ASB, special edition ships point values need to be very careful looked at.
I like a tournament were every team have the same level of access to what they can use, so itGÇÖs only up to pilots and fitting skills to decide who is best, but this is EVE, Meta Gaming is also a big part of it, and probably what makes this game so engaging, like it or not, we canGÇÖt completely remove it from the tournament.
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
781
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Posted - 2013.07.03 11:50:00 -
[37] - Quote
Faffywaffy wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Logical Chaos wrote:they better remove flagships as well as fancy limited edition ships for this decision to be consistent. I do not follow your logic, can you lay it out? Hopefully that's sarcasm, Veritas. Both legacy ASB and AT prize ships are: 1. Significantly more powerful than other ships with the same number of points. 2. Relatively rare. The difference is, of course that seeing a 13-charge ASB sleipnir explode is not as exciting as watching (say) a Mimir explode. I would argue, though, that this is irrelevant to making the tournament fair, which IMO is much more important. The other option to make it fair is to have these ships cost more (say 1 point). It was not sarcasm, no.
The reasons we would prefer to not allow overfull modules is not related to either of those points. We had considered their power and rarity and were fine with them on those terms. Our thoughts have changed after the following points were brought up: 1 - They cannot be spotted (and workarounds like "name your ship like this" have exactly the same enforcement problem as disallowing does) 2 - They are not available to be practiced against.
Both of those considerations are covered for fancy limited edition ships and flagships, so the claim that we must remove them if we disallow overfull modules is not logical. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
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Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
289
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Posted - 2013.07.03 12:21:00 -
[38] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:1 - They cannot be spotted (and workarounds like "name your ship like this" have exactly the same enforcement problem as disallowing does) This is true for flagships as well.
CCP Veritas wrote:2 - They are not available to be practiced against. There's simple work around for this: 5 HG crystal implants + synth/nugoehuvi blue pill. 13-battery asb has 45% more efficiency than 9-battery one, crystals and blue pill gives give you around 41% which is pretty close result. There's difference still, but close enough if you want to test against it.
Destoya wrote:Just by the way, I did some math with a Sleipnir
Your math must be wrong. Sleipnir gets around +25% ehp (with more or less classic for AT fitting). If you take into consideration RRs coming from logi, the survivability time improvement is reduced from these +25% to ~10% max (because ASB gives you plain hp buffer, not resists), yet in your calculations under reps sleipnir survived 25% longer.
Faffywaffy wrote:Both legacy ASB and AT prize ships are: 1. Significantly more powerful than other ships with the same number of points. 2. Relatively rare. So, basically, you want a test server tournament with no ISK cost, right? |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
781
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Posted - 2013.07.03 13:04:00 -
[39] - Quote
It's true that #1 applies to flagships, save that we have a process in place to deal with it already and the scope is limited to one ship per team. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
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Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch DarkSide.
85
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Posted - 2013.07.03 16:16:00 -
[40] - Quote
Kadesh Priestess wrote:Faffywaffy wrote:Both legacy ASB and AT prize ships are: 1. Significantly more powerful than other ships with the same number of points. 2. Relatively rare. So, basically, you want a test server tournament with no ISK cost, right?
No. I want a tournament where the number of points assigned to a ship is proportional to how powerful that ship is.
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Destoya
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
115
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Posted - 2013.07.03 16:26:00 -
[41] - Quote
Kadesh Priestess wrote:Destoya wrote:Just by the way, I did some math with a Sleipnir
Your math must be wrong. Sleipnir gets around +25% ehp (with more or less classic for AT fitting). If you take into consideration RRs coming from logi, the survivability time improvement is reduced from these +25% to ~10% max (because ASB gives you plain hp buffer, not resists), yet in your calculations under reps sleipnir survived 25% longer.
It's really quite simple. A Sleipnir with 4 large, un-overheated reps from a scimi gets 2072 DPS tank without it's ASB, which means that the 4000 DPS number I used is reduced to 1928 DPS
ASB reps 1482.25 per cycle for 13 cycles, which is 19269.25 HP, which is then multiplied by the resists of the ship (sleipnirs have very balanced omni resists so that's a good baseline) which is a multiplier of 6.449. This means the ASB adds 124,267 EHP to the ship. Add this to the base HP of 61,866 and you get 186,133 EHP to chew through with the 1928 DPS. That's 96.54 seconds under ideal circumstances.
9 Charge ASB results in EHP of 147,897, which takes 76.71 seconds under the same circumstances
Of course this math relies of the idea that a hostile team is able to apply exactly 4000 DPS to a single ship and ignores factors such as ASB charges from capacitor (which you can usually get 1-2 off easily), "wasted" rep cycles and ASB cycles which take the ship to full shield, but I still feel it's a decent comparison. |
Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
289
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 17:09:00 -
[42] - Quote
Faffywaffy wrote:No. I want a tournament where the number of points assigned to a ship is proportional to how powerful that ship is. Then why did you think of 13-charged ASBs on ships and AT reward ships, but not 5-point hyenas, 4-point vigils, HICs, sacrileges, cruors, interceptors, erises?
To me it seems you care about balance of things which you can't afford. |
Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch DarkSide.
85
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 17:26:00 -
[43] - Quote
Kadesh Priestess wrote:Faffywaffy wrote:No. I want a tournament where the number of points assigned to a ship is proportional to how powerful that ship is. Then why did you think of 13-charged ASBs on ships and AT reward ships, but not 5-point hyenas, 4-point vigils, HICs, sacrileges, cruors, interceptors, erises? To me it seems you care about balance of things which you can't afford.
I think all of these also need to be re-pointed, even though the case for them is different. You can look up the thread where I voiced my opinion on which ship types were assigned an inappropriate number of points. None of them were tournament prize ships.
Do you not think that points should be proportional to strength? |
Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
289
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 17:31:00 -
[44] - Quote
Faffywaffy wrote:Do you not think that points should be proportional to strength? I think as long as tourney is held on TQ, ISK cost is a factor. Why would you want to use ships which cost tens of billions of ISK, if their point value is scaled proportionally with their performance in tourney meta?
However, I do agree with you for test server tourneys like SCL. And i already suggested per-shiptype balancing approach there, but apparently it takes too much effort to do this. |
Tabernash
0utbreak Outbreak.
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 17:45:00 -
[45] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote: 2 - They are not available to be practiced against.
This. This is not a fancy ship, it is a ship that is technically impossible to recreate. It only exists due to the inability to force it comply with new mechanics, it is not 'special' so much as it is 100% unintentional. I don't like the word legacy attached to it, legacy would imply it is outdated or discontinued and it isn't either of those things, it is a broke mechanic. |
Plejaden
Casalt Corp CAStabouts
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 20:23:00 -
[46] - Quote
Easiest way to make sure ASBs aren't overloaded: unload them.
Can't you just use your GM tool to enforce that once all ships are on Jove space? It doesn't bother me too much fighting ships with the old amount of charges in their ASBs, but if the only reason you are allowing them are "technical difficulties" this is a 100% secure way all ASBs have the same amount of charges loaded. |
Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch DarkSide.
86
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 21:31:00 -
[47] - Quote
Kadesh Priestess wrote:Faffywaffy wrote:Do you not think that points should be proportional to strength? I think as long as tourney is held on TQ, ISK cost is a factor. Why would you want to use ships which cost tens of billions of ISK, if their point value is scaled proportionally with their performance in tourney meta? However, I do agree with you for test server tourneys like SCL. And i already suggested per-shiptype balancing approach there, but apparently it takes too much effort to do this.
Because they have unique capabilities that can be used in unusual and surprising ways. Making them balanced point-wise would not make them useless. If that were the case in general then all properly-balanced ships would be interchangeable. |
sevyn nine
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
22
|
Posted - 2013.07.03 23:56:00 -
[48] - Quote
sevyn nine wrote:It would be ridiculous if they are allowed (it definitely goes against the spirit of a fair fight), but it would also be tough to check for this.
Quoting myself because after 3 pages of posts, we still end up here. The significant advantage they bestow, plus the inability to detect the 13 vs 8 charges, simply makes their inclusion unfair. The overloaded ASBs are a weird carry-over from a rebalancing attempt, not something that belongs in an alliance tournament. Especially this year's tournament, where CCP has made great strides in leveling the playing field. |
Admiral Goberius
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
14
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 02:29:00 -
[49] - Quote
so anyways do you realize that the difference between 13 and 8 is a pretty big difference
here is what 8 smileys look like
now I will try with 13 smileys
you can see how all the extra smileys are red angry this is because the 13 charge legacy asb are the work of satan worshippers
coincidence? or perhaps CCP fozzie is a illuminati puppet. wake up america.
edit: actually 4 of the smileys are red and the one in the middle just looks in your soul and weeps - a desperate warning but it knows its too late to stop - mother of mercy |
HaartSp
The Deliberate Forces HYDRA RELOADED
36
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 05:42:00 -
[50] - Quote
Do you realize that current ASB holds 9 charges, not 8, right? |
|
Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
290
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 07:12:00 -
[51] - Quote
HaartSp wrote:Do you realize that current ASB holds 9 charges, not 8, right? Why would you care about charges when you can cycle it as long as you want?
Faffywaffy wrote:Because they have unique capabilities that can be used in unusual and surprising ways. Making them balanced point-wise would not make them useless. If that were the case in general then all properly-balanced ships would be interchangeable. With the point cost of several ship classes increased, you already have to gimp something (usually your support). Which unique capabilities in tourney meta does etana have (it can't use its cloak there)? It will get caught anyway and your 70-100 bils die in a fire, tanking for just few seconds more - and you had to spend these 100 bils and 3-5 additional points on it. Or why would you want to use e.g. 6-point cambion over 2 sabres? Or mimir (which is pretty much useless even with current point cost)? |
Admiral Goberius
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
14
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 10:42:00 -
[52] - Quote
HaartSp wrote:Do you realize that current ASB holds 9 charges, not 8, right?
you know you can fly other ships than sleipnirs in tourneys right? |
Ais Hellia
The Deliberate Forces HYDRA RELOADED
3
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 11:28:00 -
[53] - Quote
Admiral Goberius wrote:
you know you can fly other ships than sleipnirs in tourneys right?
http://techdistrict.kirkk.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/stacked-turtles.jpg |
Callic Veratar
Power of the Phoenix
391
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 16:53:00 -
[54] - Quote
(Assumption: if you use 5 boosts on a 13 charge ASB and reload it, it will go up to 9, is this wrong?)
I'm confused here. There's a suggestion that people will exclusively fly 13 charge ASB ships in the tournament, knowing full well that they're highly limited and can only be used once?
This is not like the tournament ships. It doesn't get unlimited 13 charge cycles, it gets 4 extra boosts. Period. They're the first four boosts the ship will ever use and it's immediately reduced to a normal ASB. As well, these cycles will happen at the beginning of the match when both teams are at their strongest. DirectX 11, it's not rocket appliance! |
Logical Chaos
Justmore
15
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 17:42:00 -
[55] - Quote
Callic Veratar wrote:(Assumption: if you use 5 boosts on a 13 charge ASB and reload it, it will go up to 9, is this wrong?)
I'm confused here. There's a suggestion that people will exclusively fly 13 charge ASB ships in the tournament, knowing full well that they're highly limited and can only be used once?
This is not like the tournament ships. It doesn't get unlimited 13 charge cycles, it gets 4 extra boosts. Period. They're the first four boosts the ship will ever use and it's immediately reduced to a normal ASB. As well, these cycles will happen at the beginning of the match when both teams are at their strongest.
Confirmed! |
HaartSp
The Deliberate Forces HYDRA RELOADED
36
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 17:49:00 -
[56] - Quote
Admiral Goberius wrote:you know you can fly other ships than sleipnirs in tourneys right? Yeah, I think I'm pretty good at gilas as well. |
Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch DarkSide.
86
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 18:13:00 -
[57] - Quote
Who said an Etana should cost 3-5 points more than a logi, or that a cambion should cost 6? I think the appropriate number of points for both of them is 1 more than their current class. |
Callic Veratar
Power of the Phoenix
392
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 19:46:00 -
[58] - Quote
Logical Chaos wrote:Callic Veratar wrote:(Assumption: if you use 5 boosts on a 13 charge ASB and reload it, it will go up to 9, is this wrong?)
I'm confused here. There's a suggestion that people will exclusively fly 13 charge ASB ships in the tournament, knowing full well that they're highly limited and can only be used once?
This is not like the tournament ships. It doesn't get unlimited 13 charge cycles, it gets 4 extra boosts. Period. They're the first four boosts the ship will ever use and it's immediately reduced to a normal ASB. As well, these cycles will happen at the beginning of the match when both teams are at their strongest. Confirmed!
Thanks for confirming it.
While it may be unfair, the advantage is so limited, that I'm not sure it's worth the effort to police it. With the tournament ships, you can use them again and again. With these ships, if you use the booster it literally can never be used again. If you lose a tournament round without having the ASB on a enemy Sleip activated once, I'd say it's pretty safe to conclude you wouldn't have won no matter how many charges it has.
If it really is a big concern, and there are potential future changes that could cause similar issue, an "easy" fix would be to enforce ammo checking on ships when it checks CPU and PG checks on undock. (Like how you can't undock a rookie frigate with a siege blaster in a high slot). DirectX 11, it's not rocket appliance! |
Tabernash
0utbreak Outbreak.
1
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 20:58:00 -
[59] - Quote
Callic Veratar wrote:Logical Chaos wrote:Callic Veratar wrote:(Assumption: if you use 5 boosts on a 13 charge ASB and reload it, it will go up to 9, is this wrong?)
I'm confused here. There's a suggestion that people will exclusively fly 13 charge ASB ships in the tournament, knowing full well that they're highly limited and can only be used once?
This is not like the tournament ships. It doesn't get unlimited 13 charge cycles, it gets 4 extra boosts. Period. They're the first four boosts the ship will ever use and it's immediately reduced to a normal ASB. As well, these cycles will happen at the beginning of the match when both teams are at their strongest. Confirmed! Thanks for confirming it. While it may be unfair, the advantage is so limited, that I'm not sure it's worth the effort to police it. With the tournament ships, you can use them again and again. With these ships, if you use the booster it literally can never be used again. If you lose a tournament round without having the ASB on a enemy Sleip activated once, I'd say it's pretty safe to conclude you wouldn't have won no matter how many charges it has. If it really is a big concern, and there are potential future changes that could cause similar issue, an "easy" fix would be to enforce ammo checking on ships when it checks CPU and PG checks on undock. (Like how you can't undock a rookie frigate with a siege blaster in a high slot).
Unconfirmed, don't be stupid. |
Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
290
|
Posted - 2013.07.04 21:13:00 -
[60] - Quote
Tabernash wrote:Unconfirmed, don't be stupid. It would be possible to load 13 charges again only if that ASB had pre-nerf capacity (which it doesn't have, just amount of charges loaded is legacy).
|
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BadAssMcKill
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
290
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 08:57:00 -
[61] - Quote
Tabernash wrote:Callic Veratar wrote:Logical Chaos wrote:Callic Veratar wrote:(Assumption: if you use 5 boosts on a 13 charge ASB and reload it, it will go up to 9, is this wrong?)
I'm confused here. There's a suggestion that people will exclusively fly 13 charge ASB ships in the tournament, knowing full well that they're highly limited and can only be used once?
This is not like the tournament ships. It doesn't get unlimited 13 charge cycles, it gets 4 extra boosts. Period. They're the first four boosts the ship will ever use and it's immediately reduced to a normal ASB. As well, these cycles will happen at the beginning of the match when both teams are at their strongest. Confirmed! Thanks for confirming it. While it may be unfair, the advantage is so limited, that I'm not sure it's worth the effort to police it. With the tournament ships, you can use them again and again. With these ships, if you use the booster it literally can never be used again. If you lose a tournament round without having the ASB on a enemy Sleip activated once, I'd say it's pretty safe to conclude you wouldn't have won no matter how many charges it has. If it really is a big concern, and there are potential future changes that could cause similar issue, an "easy" fix would be to enforce ammo checking on ships when it checks CPU and PG checks on undock. (Like how you can't undock a rookie frigate with a siege blaster in a high slot). Unconfirmed, don't be stupid.
M8 pls
http://i.imgur.com/6j6cIZE.gif-á |
Nico Aristaeus
The Vendunari End of Life
9
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 08:59:00 -
[62] - Quote
Callic Veratar wrote:Logical Chaos wrote:Callic Veratar wrote:(Assumption: if you use 5 boosts on a 13 charge ASB and reload it, it will go up to 9, is this wrong?)
I'm confused here. There's a suggestion that people will exclusively fly 13 charge ASB ships in the tournament, knowing full well that they're highly limited and can only be used once?
This is not like the tournament ships. It doesn't get unlimited 13 charge cycles, it gets 4 extra boosts. Period. They're the first four boosts the ship will ever use and it's immediately reduced to a normal ASB. As well, these cycles will happen at the beginning of the match when both teams are at their strongest. Confirmed! Thanks for confirming it. While it may be unfair, the advantage is so limited, that I'm not sure it's worth the effort to police it. With the tournament ships, you can use them again and again. With these ships, if you use the booster it literally can never be used again. If you lose a tournament round without having the ASB on a enemy Sleip activated once, I'd say it's pretty safe to conclude you wouldn't have won no matter how many charges it has. If it really is a big concern, and there are potential future changes that could cause similar issue, an "easy" fix would be to enforce ammo checking on ships when it checks CPU and PG checks on undock. (Like how you can't undock a rookie frigate with a siege blaster in a high slot). The advantage might be limited in a way but is not small. Generally you will not survive a reload. 13 over 9 charges is a huge deal. There are two types of people: People that can extrapolate from incomplete data. |
Tabernash
0utbreak Outbreak.
2
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 15:02:00 -
[63] - Quote
Kadesh Priestess wrote:Tabernash wrote:Unconfirmed, don't be stupid. It would be possible to load 13 charges again only if that ASB had pre-nerf capacity (which it doesn't have, just amount of charges loaded is legacy).
Man, you got me. I totally forgot that I only have one 13 ASB sleip, I better pick the right fight to field it in!
Or, more realistically, I have more then 40 of them, enough to field 2 each and every fight for all of AT.
Again. Broke mechanic, unfit-able, unintentional.
Give me 100 13 ASB ships to practice with / against on duality and I'm good with them being included. But if there is absolutely no way to recreate the ship I find it hard to believe it should be included simply cause it exists. You can't fit more then one energy transfer to specific ships, and that is completely within the realm of real in-game possibilities, but a setup that can't be recreated is fine?
|
HaartSp
The Deliberate Forces HYDRA RELOADED
36
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 15:10:00 -
[64] - Quote
Tabernash wrote:Kadesh Priestess wrote:Tabernash wrote:Unconfirmed, don't be stupid. It would be possible to load 13 charges again only if that ASB had pre-nerf capacity (which it doesn't have, just amount of charges loaded is legacy). Man, you got me. I totally forgot that I only have one 13 ASB sleip, I better pick the right fight to field it in! Or, more realistically, I have more then 40 of them, enough to field 2 each and every fight for all of AT. Again. Broke mechanic, unfit-able, unintentional. Give me 100 13 ASB ships to practice with / against on duality and I'm good with them being included. But if there is absolutely no way to recreate the ship I find it hard to believe it should be included simply cause it exists. You can't fit more then one energy transfer to specific ships, and that is completely within the realm of real in-game possibilities, but a setup that can't be recreated is fine? Or maybe you should learn to read, because he already posted workaround in this thread? |
Tabernash
0utbreak Outbreak.
2
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 18:41:00 -
[65] - Quote
HaartSp wrote: Or maybe you should learn to read, because he already posted workaround in this thread?
Who would be he? Cause he isn't Fozzie or Veritas, and plugging in HG Crystals and using drugs is hardly the same thing. But you know, whatever floats your boat. |
Logical Chaos
Justmore
15
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 19:44:00 -
[66] - Quote
Tabernash wrote:HaartSp wrote: Or maybe you should learn to read, because he already posted workaround in this thread?
Who would be he? Cause he isn't Fozzie or Veritas, and plugging in HG Crystals and using drugs is hardly the same thing. But you know, whatever floats your boat.
You say 13 ASB is shite because it cannot be trained against.
This thread explained how this effect can be somewhat matched as in you being able to train against it on the Test Server.
Not being able to train against it argument is invalid. |
Nico Aristaeus
The Vendunari End of Life
9
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 22:58:00 -
[67] - Quote
Logical Chaos wrote:Tabernash wrote:HaartSp wrote: Or maybe you should learn to read, because he already posted workaround in this thread?
Who would be he? Cause he isn't Fozzie or Veritas, and plugging in HG Crystals and using drugs is hardly the same thing. But you know, whatever floats your boat. You say 13 ASB is shite because it cannot be trained against. This thread explained how this effect can be somewhat matched as in you being able to train against it on the Test Server. Not being able to train against it argument is invalid. Oh please. The utter existence of such an overfull mod is ridiculous. Allowing broken mods would raise many eye brows. And then your solution. Work arounds to get close to the broken effect of a rebalanced mod. I see a simpler solution. There are two types of people: People that can extrapolate from incomplete data. |
Admiral Goberius
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
14
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 23:12:00 -
[68] - Quote
Logical Chaos wrote:Tabernash wrote:HaartSp wrote: Or maybe you should learn to read, because he already posted workaround in this thread?
Who would be he? Cause he isn't Fozzie or Veritas, and plugging in HG Crystals and using drugs is hardly the same thing. But you know, whatever floats your boat. You say 13 ASB is shite because it cannot be trained against. This thread explained how this effect can be somewhat matched as in you being able to train against it on the Test Server. Not being able to train against it argument is invalid.
that is no workaround since you get a much larger boost over a shorter time, it will only even out if the sleip burns through all of its charges not to mention it skews effects like extra boost cycles, overheating and hardeners that might turn off between the 9th and 13th charge
also the only reason you are here arguing is because you have a bunch of legacy ships to sell https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3299434#post3299434
so plz go away mister happy merchant |
Logical Chaos
Justmore
16
|
Posted - 2013.07.06 10:06:00 -
[69] - Quote
Confirming Sleipnirs biggest problem in a tournament setting is being alpha'd. And Sleipnirs are probably going to be the most popular ships with those ASBs. Your argument would only matter for things like frigates. And sorry but I highly doubt that this whole issue matters at all on frigate level.
Admiral Goberius wrote:that is no workaround since you get a much larger boost over a shorter time, it will only even out if the sleip burns through all of its charges not to mention it skews effects like extra boost cycles, overheating and hardeners that might turn off between the 9th and 13th charge also the only reason you are here arguing is because you have a bunch of legacy ships to sell https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3299434#post3299434so plz go away mister happy merchant
It's actually sad that it took so long for someone to point out, I was hoping for some juicy advertising but didn't want to do it myself.
BUT I have actually sold my Sleipnirs yesterday, the Mach is kind of sold as well (fairly cheap btw). So only a Phantasm and a Mael is left which are unlikely to be sold atm when I see the attention that they have gotten. Basically people went nuts on the Sleipnir and the other ships barely got any attention. So my motivation for this is limited now and I still think its a stupid idea to ban them. |
Kainos Kerensky
Shadows Of The Requiem
483
|
Posted - 2013.07.06 17:15:00 -
[70] - Quote
You're still a sperglord ****** for argueing in favor of a broken mechanic being used in the alliance tournament so you can make ISK. I suppose if your ships are sold. you can STFU and stop trolling this thread with your ignorance. Kainos Kerensky "Prepare for teh Vandersex!" |
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Kainos Kerensky
Shadows Of The Requiem
483
|
Posted - 2013.07.06 17:15:00 -
[71] - Quote
Also the idea of using implants and boosters to come close to mimicing the effect is stupid. Stop being tryhards. Kainos Kerensky "Prepare for teh Vandersex!" |
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ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
88
|
Posted - 2013.07.06 19:38:00 -
[72] - Quote
A post was deleted for flaming.
Forum rule 4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
ISD Tyrozan Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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