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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
71
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 01:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
I set up my corporation a while ago to encourage people to AFK cloak in popular PvE null systems but unfortunately had to leave EvE for a while. Now Im back and having been inspired by recent complaints regarding cloaking have decided to take up that honorable cause once more.
I'm offering newbies 50 million per week to train a basic cloaking alt and then will assign them a system in null to afk cloak in when theyre not online.
I am calling for all those successful players who recognize the value of such a cause to sponsor their own newbie to do likewise. Recruit a newbie, assign him or her a system and send that brave pilot 50 mill. You will help EvE, cause tears and rage and be comforted in the knowledge thatfor a mere 50 mill you too are contributing to the creation of these wonderfully amusing threads.
What do you think of this idea? |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
2545
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 01:55:00 -
[2] - Quote
I approve of this product and/or service. The tears must flow.
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
Skill Training Online
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 02:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote:I approve of this product and/or service. The tears must flow.
This could be good. |
Private Pineapple
Tea And Sympathy Ltd. Liability Reckless Ambition
369
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 03:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
Awesome I am the Kingpin of the Crime and Punishment forum.
I am the rightful heir to the CSM 8 throne.
|
Mabon Clave
Industry and Investments NZAU Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 03:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
Sounds good, but seeing a noob in local is not a good enough reason to dock up or run away for serious nullplorers, itl just be "meh, plex as usual"
Keeping an eye on local/dscan is good enough if you know what you are doing and have a cloaky-eyes alt scouting your acceleration gate.
noobalt is not scary enough. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
71
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 05:28:00 -
[6] - Quote
Scary enough for some, moreso once theyre old enough to be able to open a covert cyno.
I have 10 alts training for this very thing. Will be offerring free hotdrops whenever I spot something worth ganking. |
ACE McFACE
Radical Astronauts Plundering Eve
1364
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 05:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
Mabon Clave wrote:Sounds good, but seeing a noob in local is not a good enough reason to dock up or run away for serious nullplorers, itl just be "meh, plex as usual"
Keeping an eye on local/dscan is good enough if you know what you are doing and have a cloaky-eyes alt scouting your acceleration gate.
noobalt is not scary enough. You overestimate the bravery of your average PvE nuller. Plus that 2 week old alt can drop an entire fleet on you because of titan bridges and cynos. You should be notified if someone quotes your post so you can continue the argument! |
Endeavour Starfleet
891
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 12:16:00 -
[8] - Quote
I want to thank you for doing this. No seriously.
You are spending your own isk and alts to help prove just how unbalanced the ability to go away from the client while cloaking is.
CCP has never said anything positive about doing that other than to say that AFK Cloaking is not an exploit. Which it isn't as that would be against the TOS but it is unbalanced. Maybe this will help convince them that it is time to finally dig into the extremely old code of cloaking and try something new.
Again thank you! |
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
101
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 12:26:00 -
[9] - Quote
Have some likes. AFK cloaking whine threads are always hilarious. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2223
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 12:46:00 -
[10] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:I set up my corporation a while ago to encourage people to AFK cloak in popular PvE null systems but unfortunately had to leave EvE for a while. Now Im back and having been inspired by recent complaints regarding cloaking have decided to take up that honorable cause once more.
I'm offering newbies 50 million per week to train a basic cloaking alt and then will assign them a system in null to afk cloak in when theyre not online.
I am calling for all those successful players who recognize the value of such a cause to sponsor their own newbie to do likewise. Recruit a newbie, assign him or her a system and send that brave pilot 50 mill. You will help EvE, cause tears and rage and be comforted in the knowledge thatfor a mere 50 mill you too are contributing to the creation of these wonderfully amusing threads.
What do you think of this idea?
Not a bad idea actually, if it encourages people who live in NULL SEC to actually think about what they are doing.
I love null PVE but it seems that in CCPs quest to give people a reason to be in null, they've attracted a portion of the high sec "I should be left alone" entitlement crowd who simply dock up and complain on the forums when some dude in a frigate cloaks in the system they like to use. It's also a problem of stupidly restrictive rental agreements (so some corps onlhave 1 "ratting system" and a cloaker will disrupt that, not because he's dangerous, but smply because he's their and the ';bears can figure out a video game).
As I've said in multiple threads now, i most be seriously cracked and must be doing things wrong because I've flown pirate faction battleships and tech3s in null sec making isk for years and haven't died to a hotdrop (other than an awoxxing, which is different) yet..
|
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Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2223
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 12:48:00 -
[11] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:I want to thank you for doing this. No seriously.
You are spending your own isk and alts to help prove just how unbalanced the ability to go away from the client while cloaking is.
CCP has never said anything positive about doing that other than to say that AFK Cloaking is not an exploit. Which it isn't as that would be against the TOS but it is unbalanced. Maybe this will help convince them that it is time to finally dig into the extremely old code of cloaking and try something new.
Again thank you!
It's not ccp that needs convincing, it's the players who need to learn that this isn't a problem if they actually learn to THINK.
|
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
340
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 13:31:00 -
[12] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:I want to thank you for doing this. No seriously.
You are spending your own isk and alts to help prove just how unbalanced the ability to go away from the client while cloaking is.
CCP has never said anything positive about doing that other than to say that AFK Cloaking is not an exploit. Which it isn't as that would be against the TOS but it is unbalanced. Maybe this will help convince them that it is time to finally dig into the extremely old code of cloaking and try something new.
Again thank you!
It's only unbalanced because YOU LET IT BE. |
Endeavour Starfleet
891
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 13:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
Let it be? I and many others have made suggestions in detail on how CCP can bring balance to cloaking without harming active players. The ideas are there and CCP never comments other than to say it is not an exploit. My guess is that Cloaking code is a mess and any changes will require significant dev time that may have been planned for something else.
That is why I thank the folks that are doing this and making topics like these. At the very least it may convince CCP to actually take a public side of the issue or maybe even do something to bring balance to cloaking. |
Icarus Able
Pheonix Corp Selectus
25
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 13:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
this is hilarious. When i get some time i will have to participate in this honorable craft.
Afk Cloaking isnt overpowered. They are afk and only effect you cause you are a *****...I thought rule 1 of eve was never fly what you cant afford to lose.If someone is afk cloaking just put that shiny ship away bring out a T2 fit and continue..Its not hard...You are just kinda idiots. |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University Minmatar Republic
545
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 13:55:00 -
[15] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:I set up my corporation a while ago to encourage people to AFK cloak in popular PvE null systems but unfortunately had to leave EvE for a while. Now Im back and having been inspired by recent complaints regarding cloaking have decided to take up that honorable cause once more.
I'm offering newbies 50 million per week to train a basic cloaking alt and then will assign them a system in null to afk cloak in when theyre not online.
I am calling for all those successful players who recognize the value of such a cause to sponsor their own newbie to do likewise. Recruit a newbie, assign him or her a system and send that brave pilot 50 mill. You will help EvE, cause tears and rage and be comforted in the knowledge thatfor a mere 50 mill you too are contributing to the creation of these wonderfully amusing threads.
What do you think of this idea?
Great way to get AFK cloaking nerfed quickly. I approve! |
E-2C Hawkeye
State War Academy Caldari State
222
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 13:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:I set up my corporation a while ago to encourage people to AFK cloak in popular PvE null systems but unfortunately had to leave EvE for a while. Now Im back and having been inspired by recent complaints regarding cloaking have decided to take up that honorable cause once more.
I'm offering newbies 50 million per week to train a basic cloaking alt and then will assign them a system in null to afk cloak in when theyre not online.
I am calling for all those successful players who recognize the value of such a cause to sponsor their own newbie to do likewise. Recruit a newbie, assign him or her a system and send that brave pilot 50 mill. You will help EvE, cause tears and rage and be comforted in the knowledge thatfor a mere 50 mill you too are contributing to the creation of these wonderfully amusing threads.
What do you think of this idea? I will do it for 200m but you will need to pay in advance please |
GreenSeed
499
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 14:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:I want to thank you for doing this. No seriously.
You are spending your own isk and alts to help prove just how unbalanced the ability to go away from the client while cloaking is.
CCP has never said anything positive about doing that other than to say that AFK Cloaking is not an exploit. Which it isn't as that would be against the TOS but it is unbalanced. Maybe this will help convince them that it is time to finally dig into the extremely old code of cloaking and try something new.
Again thank you! you must be new in eve if you think CCP will balance the game to cater to your risk adversity.
your bitching will only help local to be removed. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2227
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 14:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Let it be? I and many others have made suggestions in detail on how CCP can bring balance to cloaking without harming active players. The ideas are there and CCP never comments other than to say it is not an exploit. My guess is that Cloaking code is a mess and any changes will require significant dev time that may have been planned for something else.
That's a very self serving "guess". It could be that they understand that Afk cloaking isn't a problem to begin with
Quote: That is why I thank the folks that are doing this and making topics like these. At the very least it may convince CCP to actually take a public side of the issue or maybe even do something to bring balance to cloaking.
They have taken a side. The created it , have ignored the "omg afk cloak" people for years and have publicly told people it's not an exploit. How much clearer can they be?
Every few minutes some solo fool in null sec in a pve fitted ship dies after someone uncloaks and points them. Probably in a station system which probably has any number of defensive modules on sale...not a one of which that PVE'r had even in his hanger.
The only thing that should change is perhaps small buffs to defensive equipment (like for example tech2 warp core stabs nullifying the "shut down MWD" affect of scrams, or a skill or drug that lets you lessen the penalties of things like warp core stabs). But cloaking itself is fine. |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
343
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 14:31:00 -
[19] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Let it be? I and many others have made suggestions in detail on how CCP can bring balance to cloaking without harming active players. The ideas are there and CCP never comments other than to say it is not an exploit. My guess is that Cloaking code is a mess and any changes will require significant dev time that may have been planned for something else.
That is why I thank the folks that are doing this and making topics like these. At the very least it may convince CCP to actually take a public side of the issue or maybe even do something to bring balance to cloaking.
I got news for you: Any "fix" CCP comes up with to circumvent afk cloaking will have a solution within a few days, and you will continue to see cloaked ships sitting in your home system. The players will adapt.
What you need to learn to understand is this fix would make matters much worse for you, as any cloaked ships in your system must be assumed to be not afk at all times, whereas now you can reasonably determine that someone is indeed afk. You also need to learn to adapt yourself, and when you do, you will see it for what it is - a non-issue.
|
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
89
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 14:33:00 -
[20] - Quote
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:I set up my corporation a while ago to encourage people to AFK cloak in popular PvE null systems but unfortunately had to leave EvE for a while. Now Im back and having been inspired by recent complaints regarding cloaking have decided to take up that honorable cause once more.
I'm offering newbies 50 million per week to train a basic cloaking alt and then will assign them a system in null to afk cloak in when theyre not online.
I am calling for all those successful players who recognize the value of such a cause to sponsor their own newbie to do likewise. Recruit a newbie, assign him or her a system and send that brave pilot 50 mill. You will help EvE, cause tears and rage and be comforted in the knowledge thatfor a mere 50 mill you too are contributing to the creation of these wonderfully amusing threads.
What do you think of this idea? Great way to get AFK cloaking nerfed quickly. I approve! My hope is that nullbears will whine enough local will get a nerf or cloaking ships will disappear from local when cloaked. |
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Endeavour Starfleet
893
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 14:43:00 -
[21] - Quote
Kijo Rikki wrote:Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Let it be? I and many others have made suggestions in detail on how CCP can bring balance to cloaking without harming active players. The ideas are there and CCP never comments other than to say it is not an exploit. My guess is that Cloaking code is a mess and any changes will require significant dev time that may have been planned for something else.
That is why I thank the folks that are doing this and making topics like these. At the very least it may convince CCP to actually take a public side of the issue or maybe even do something to bring balance to cloaking. I got news for you: Any "fix" CCP comes up with to circumvent afk cloaking will have a solution within a few days, and you will continue to see cloaked ships sitting in your home system. The players will adapt. What you need to learn to understand is this fix would make matters much worse for you, as any cloaked ships in your system must be assumed to be not afk at all times, whereas now you can reasonably determine that someone is indeed afk. You also need to learn to adapt yourself, and when you do, you will see it for what it is - a non-issue.
Considering my idea involved how long you remained AFK to be detectable. The way "around" that would likely be someone botting. And that would meaning getting botting players out of EVE.
I welcome active cloakers. If they are willing to sit active in a system that long to disrupt activities I would be be pretty honored to have the attention of someone who is actually there and not off to the movies or elsewhere.
That is why I am so glad to see this topic. |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
343
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 14:47:00 -
[22] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Kijo Rikki wrote:Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Let it be? I and many others have made suggestions in detail on how CCP can bring balance to cloaking without harming active players. The ideas are there and CCP never comments other than to say it is not an exploit. My guess is that Cloaking code is a mess and any changes will require significant dev time that may have been planned for something else.
That is why I thank the folks that are doing this and making topics like these. At the very least it may convince CCP to actually take a public side of the issue or maybe even do something to bring balance to cloaking. I got news for you: Any "fix" CCP comes up with to circumvent afk cloaking will have a solution within a few days, and you will continue to see cloaked ships sitting in your home system. The players will adapt. What you need to learn to understand is this fix would make matters much worse for you, as any cloaked ships in your system must be assumed to be not afk at all times, whereas now you can reasonably determine that someone is indeed afk. You also need to learn to adapt yourself, and when you do, you will see it for what it is - a non-issue. Considering my idea involved how long you remained AFK to be detectable. The way "around" that would likely be someone botting. And that would meaning getting botting players out of EVE. I welcome active cloakers. If they are willing to sit active in a system that long to disrupt activities I would be be pretty honored to have the attention of someone who is actually there and not off to the movies or elsewhere. That is why I am so glad to see this topic.
I think you underestimate how cheap cloaking ships are and how easy it would be for an alliance to simply send a cheap heron with a t1 cloak in and let it get found and send in a replacement. Every once in a while, send in something with teeth to keep you on your toes. Never know when it's just a decoy.
|
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2231
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 14:47:00 -
[23] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Kijo Rikki wrote:Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Let it be? I and many others have made suggestions in detail on how CCP can bring balance to cloaking without harming active players. The ideas are there and CCP never comments other than to say it is not an exploit. My guess is that Cloaking code is a mess and any changes will require significant dev time that may have been planned for something else.
That is why I thank the folks that are doing this and making topics like these. At the very least it may convince CCP to actually take a public side of the issue or maybe even do something to bring balance to cloaking. I got news for you: Any "fix" CCP comes up with to circumvent afk cloaking will have a solution within a few days, and you will continue to see cloaked ships sitting in your home system. The players will adapt. What you need to learn to understand is this fix would make matters much worse for you, as any cloaked ships in your system must be assumed to be not afk at all times, whereas now you can reasonably determine that someone is indeed afk. You also need to learn to adapt yourself, and when you do, you will see it for what it is - a non-issue. Considering my idea involved how long you remained AFK to be detectable. The way "around" that would likely be someone botting. And that would meaning getting botting players out of EVE. I welcome active cloakers. If they are willing to sit active in a system that long to disrupt activities I would be be pretty honored to have the attention of someone who is actually there and not off to the movies or elsewhere. That is why I am so glad to see this topic.
If you let someone who might not even be home affect you like that, your problem is a bit more than what a game company can fix lol. |
Endeavour Starfleet
893
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 14:47:00 -
[24] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:My hope is that nullbears will whine enough local will get a nerf or cloaking ships will disappear from local when cloaked.
At the very least CCP would actually take a side on these issues. So I am glad to see this topic. I want to CCP to see that this has not gone away and people fleely admit to going AFK even for isk. This adds to those admitting they go AFK In wormholes to gain a tactical advantage over its occupants.
Again thanks so much! |
Endeavour Starfleet
893
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 14:51:00 -
[25] - Quote
Kijo Rikki wrote: I think you underestimate how cheap cloaking ships are and how easy it would be for an alliance to simply send a cheap heron with a t1 cloak in and let it get found and send in a replacement. Every once in a while, send in something with teeth to keep you on your toes. Never know when it's just a decoy.
I want that! That gives defenders a chance with risk to go with it!
That is PVP! That is space chess! That is GAMEPLAY! |
Spurty
900
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 14:52:00 -
[26] - Quote
haha fun
http://www.twitch.tv/spurty007
This is my spin on this noble career
--- GÇ£If you think this Universe is bad, you should see some of the others.GÇ¥ GÇò Philip K. **** |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
343
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 14:57:00 -
[27] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Kijo Rikki wrote: I think you underestimate how cheap cloaking ships are and how easy it would be for an alliance to simply send a cheap heron with a t1 cloak in and let it get found and send in a replacement. Every once in a while, send in something with teeth to keep you on your toes. Never know when it's just a decoy.
I want that! That gives defenders a chance with risk to go with it! That is PVP! That is space chess! That is GAMEPLAY!
I get the feeling what you really want is absolute safety and 100% assurance that there are no hostiles in the systme you are trying to rat or mine in. If you truly want PvP space chess you would arm your ships with points and have friends ready and go about your business. Instead you are here because quite frankly it scares you that someone is in system and there's nothing you can do about it unless they chose to engage.
As it stands, your idea of giving defenders a chance is to wait for your cloak timer to run out, spend some time trying to probe down some t1 heron with a cloak on it and destroy it, all the while a second heron is already in-system. You can pretend that this gives you a chance to fight back but it really doesn't. In the end you'll do what you always do, stay docked up because of the unkown. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
91
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 14:58:00 -
[28] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:My hope is that nullbears will whine enough local will get a nerf or cloaking ships will disappear from local when cloaked. At the very least CCP would actually take a side on these issues. So I am glad to see this topic. I want to CCP to see that this has not gone away and people fleely admit to going AFK even for isk. This adds to those admitting they go AFK In wormholes to gain a tactical advantage over its occupants. Again thanks so much! Going AFK is no great secret. Its been a tactic known to be used for years. I have often decced a corp or alliance and over a few weeks been AFK 99% of the time with an occasional sortie when I get the time.
Its a legitimate and intelligent tactical doctrine used in guerilla warfare both in real life and in EvE. In WW2 the Tirpitz sat docked (AFK) and tied up a much larger fleet on the off chance she would sortie (Be At The Keyboard).
Why would the devs bother to remove that sort of game play? |
BoBoZoBo
Paragon Fury Tactical Narcotics Team
248
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 15:00:00 -
[29] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:What do you think of this idea?
It will be a great idea if you choose your targets wisely - not everyone is scared of a cloaked ship without a pilot. Primary Test Subject GÇó SmackTalker Elite |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
91
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 15:03:00 -
[30] - Quote
BoBoZoBo wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:What do you think of this idea? It will be a great idea if you choose your targets wisely - not everyone is scared of a cloaked ship without a pilot. The people who are not scared are fine and Im sure they will thank us for clearing the leeches out of their anoms. |
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Endeavour Starfleet
893
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 15:05:00 -
[31] - Quote
Kijo Rikki wrote:Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Kijo Rikki wrote: I think you underestimate how cheap cloaking ships are and how easy it would be for an alliance to simply send a cheap heron with a t1 cloak in and let it get found and send in a replacement. Every once in a while, send in something with teeth to keep you on your toes. Never know when it's just a decoy.
I want that! That gives defenders a chance with risk to go with it! That is PVP! That is space chess! That is GAMEPLAY! I get the feeling what you really want is absolute safety and 100% assurance that there are no hostiles in the systme you are trying to rat or mine in. If you truly want PvP space chess you would arm your ships with points and have friends ready and go about your business. Instead you are here because quite frankly it scares you that someone is in system and there's nothing you can do about it unless they chose to engage. As it stands, your idea of giving defenders a chance is to wait for your cloak timer to run out, spend some time trying to probe down some t1 heron with a cloak on it and destroy it, all the while a second heron is already in-system. You can pretend that this gives you a chance to fight back but it really doesn't. In the end you'll do what you always do, stay docked up because of the unkown.
Stay docked up when I can probe down ships and constantly force the offence to run the amount of jumps it takes to get to whatever system I would be in because they want to go AFK for long periods of time and not log out?
For me it would be an honor to the the target system of active players. Maybe we will even see more roams!
Key word here is active players. |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
343
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 15:14:00 -
[32] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote: Stay docked up when I can probe down ships and constantly force the offence to run the amount of jumps it takes to get to whatever system I would be in because they want to go AFK for long periods of time and not log out?
For me it would be an honor to the the target system of active players. Maybe we will even see more roams!
Key word here is active players.
Like I said, every once in a while something will be there that has teeth. The idea is to put fear into you and make you scared to go out. I'm willing to bet with these changes that an enemy alliance can lock down their production even harder then they do now.
Quote:You consider it gameplay. I never will. And CCP never comments either way. Your actions are helping to encourage CCP to take a side on the issue and for that I thank you.
CCP never does anything about it because it is the counter to perfect intel provided by local chat. It's already been determined long ago to be a valid tactic. |
Toshiro Hasegawa
The Circus Corp Nulli Tertius
12
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 15:17:00 -
[33] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:My hope is that nullbears will whine enough local will get a nerf or cloaking ships will disappear from local when cloaked. At the very least CCP would actually take a side on these issues. So I am glad to see this topic. I want to CCP to see that this has not gone away and people fleely admit to going AFK even for isk. This adds to those admitting they go AFK In wormholes to gain a tactical advantage over its occupants. Again thanks so much! Going AFK is no great secret. Its been a tactic known to be used for years. I have often decced a corp or alliance and over a few weeks been AFK 99% of the time with an occasional sortie when I get the time. Its a legitimate and intelligent tactical doctrine used in guerilla warfare both in real life and in EvE. In WW2 the Tirpitz sat docked (AFK) and tied up a much larger fleet on the off chance she would sortie (Be At The Keyboard). Why would the devs bother to remove that sort of game play?
Might be a valid tactic in the real world but dont expect us nullbears to like it. I will never change my opinion that if you are comming to affect my home that i want a way to affect you back. Afk cloaking is a one way street as it stands now. If you want to play in space without local go to a WH.; there that was easy. I want CCP to change it so we can reverse things and point and laugh and all the pvp tears. - it is widely known that the teariest people are the pvp'ers - all aggresive A- type people who throw tantrums when then dont get their way - i can only imagine what would happen if they didnt nerf the afk cloaky .. one can dream i guess. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2231
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 15:28:00 -
[34] - Quote
[quote=Infinity Ziona]
Why should the same devs remove local from a system meant for it?
The reason wormholes work well is because they were made that way (and because of the way wormholes work and are access, they have WH space has a VERY small population compared to the rest of EVE, so no local works.
But low and null sec without local (but still with cynos and gates ie easy access ) would most likely be pure and total crap. it's a mistake to think you can change a key aspect of a complex system and not expect unintended consequences. The biggest one being less reason for people to inhabit that space for purposes other than pvp.
CCP knows this.
Back before the 1st anomaly nerf, CCP publicly stated that the reason for the change was to give people a reason to fight over space (back then, all systems were equally upgradeable). So they nerfed the military upgrade system. The end result was a sort of pve alt exodus from null sec to high sec incursions and low sec FW farming. That resulted in fewer juicy targets for roaming gangs and eventually lead to CCP re-buffing anoms (the "EHP/hour buff that turned Forsaken Hubs into water fountains of isk).
What CCP (and it seems, you) didn't take into account is that other areas of space exist and that when it comes to pve (which most use to fund other activites), people will go where it's the best isk/ease balance. No local seems attractive, but without local pve players and pve alts of pvp players will flock to the one part of space that doesn't need local and that has space cops, high sec (where the missions are infinite).
I'd stay in null with no local, but then i'm an adapter personality, i'd simply PVE like i do now (when a cloaker comes in), with cheap remote rep warp core stab set ups that are hard to kill and that escape easily. No more mach and Rattlesnake (or vindi, like the one i lost) in null sec for me.
But most folks aren't me and in the same way most EVE players don't screw with wormholes (look at the wormhole population numbers CCP puts out compared to the rest of EVE), many current null and low players won't screw around in there with no local and and substitute.
|
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University Minmatar Republic
547
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 15:42:00 -
[35] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:My hope is that nullbears will whine enough local will get a nerf or cloaking ships will disappear from local when cloaked. Well, CCP has stated in a number of occasions (can't remember where or when... been a while) that a "nerf" to local will be accompanied by a replacement mechanic. It probably won't provide perfect info, but my money's on that it will not give the edge some gankers are hoping for. I'd dare say it will be pretty close to the status quo, so as not to upset the balance of things too drastically.
But back on topic. I sincerely do hope you get this idea started and off the ground, as it gives much exposure to this imbalance. The sooner and the more people we can get to AFK cloak, the better (IMO).
|
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
93
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 16:21:00 -
[36] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:[quote=Infinity Ziona]
Why should the same devs remove local from a system meant for it?
The reason wormholes work well is because they were made that way (and because of the way wormholes work and are access, they have WH space has a VERY small population compared to the rest of EVE, so no local works.
But low and null sec without local (but still with cynos and gates ie easy access ) would most likely be pure and total crap. it's a mistake to think you can change a key aspect of a complex system and not expect unintended consequences. The biggest one being less reason for people to inhabit that space for purposes other than pvp.
CCP knows this.
Back before the 1st anomaly nerf, CCP publicly stated that the reason for the change was to give people a reason to fight over space (back then, all systems were equally upgradeable). So they nerfed the military upgrade system. The end result was a sort of pve alt exodus from null sec to high sec incursions and low sec FW farming. That resulted in fewer juicy targets for roaming gangs and eventually lead to CCP re-buffing anoms (the "EHP/hour buff that turned Forsaken Hubs into water fountains of isk).
What CCP (and it seems, you) didn't take into account is that other areas of space exist and that when it comes to pve (which most use to fund other activites), people will go where it's the best isk/ease balance. No local seems attractive, but without local pve players and pve alts of pvp players will flock to the one part of space that doesn't need local and that has space cops, high sec (where the missions are infinite).
I'd stay in null with no local, but then i'm an adapter personality, i'd simply PVE like i do now (when a cloaker comes in), with cheap remote rep warp core stab set ups that are hard to kill and that escape easily. No more mach and Rattlesnake (or vindi, like the one i lost) in null sec for me.
But most folks aren't me and in the same way most EVE players don't screw with wormholes (look at the wormhole population numbers CCP puts out compared to the rehst of EVE), many current null and low players won't screw around in there with no local and and substitute.
The anom nerf you mentioned is quite different to local. That change was a economic one. Those people based their decision purely on an isk ratio decision. A change to local is or cloakies appearing in local is tactical. if the isk ratio is good enough then people will adapt like you, the ones who cant should not be there in the first place. As they leave others like you will replace them.
Local is not part of a complex system, its a chat channel that was highjacked to provide way too much intel. Its a crutch to avoid danger in what should be the most dangerous and profitable space but for the alert becomes the most profitable and safe space in EvE.
Whether its replaced with a more reasonable system, whether hotdropping is altered or other changes are made is not really an argument against removing local or hiding cloaked ships. Theyre a separate issue.
|
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2231
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 16:31:00 -
[37] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: The anom nerf you mentioned is quite different to local. That change was a economic one. Those people based their decision purely on an isk ratio decision. A change to local is or cloakies appearing in local is tactical. if the isk ratio is good enough then people will adapt like you, the ones who cant should not be there in the first place. As they leave others like you will replace them.
That's a self serving rationalization of which there is no evidence. In fact their is evidenc to the contrary (the aformentioned anom nerf, people like me didn't replace the pve alts that left until the ehp/hour buff).
You also miss the interconnected nature of the game. EVERYTHING is economic. The the choice is adapt with cheaper ships in null of fly 5 bil isk vindicators and machs in high sec, high sec wins. Even now (with local in null), many choose to make the same or slightly less isk in incursions (or a lot less isk for no disruption in missions) rather than deal with null.
The most probably outcome given the actual data available is that no local = less people in null and low sec, in the same way fewer people use wormholes (no local space) than use K (local) space. That hurts EVE as fewer people means fewer ships dying.
Quote: Local is not part of a complex system, its a chat channel that was highjacked to provide way too much intel. Its a crutch to avoid danger in what should be the most dangerous and profitable space but for the alert becomes the most profitable and safe space in EvE.
Whether its replaced with a more reasonable system, whether hotdropping is altered or other changes are made is not really an argument against removing local or hiding cloaked ships. Theyre a separate issue.
This is where you fall completely off the tracks. The above is so dumb it's barely worth responding to. Good thing is that CCP (and our CSM that advises them) aren't nearly this narrow minded.
In formulating your brilliant ideas, do you ever stop to wonder "how would this turn out if I'm wrong"? |
Evei Shard
192
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 16:42:00 -
[38] - Quote
The simple solution would be a delay between when a cyno is lit, and when it can be used. Profit favors the prepared |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
344
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 16:48:00 -
[39] - Quote
Evei Shard wrote:The simple solution would be a delay between when a cyno is lit, and when it can be used.
This breaks sov warfare tactics, as a large enemy fleet can simply kill a cyno pilot before support can bridge in.
For reference and for old times sake: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDVEHE10nHc&list=PL566BFC69B63517A6
|
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
97
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 16:51:00 -
[40] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: The anom nerf you mentioned is quite different to local. That change was a economic one. Those people based their decision purely on an isk ratio decision. A change to local is or cloakies appearing in local is tactical. if the isk ratio is good enough then people will adapt like you, the ones who cant should not be there in the first place. As they leave others like you will replace them.
That's a self serving rationalization of which there is no evidence. In fact their is evidenc to the contrary (the aformentioned anom nerf, people like me didn't replace the pve alts that left until the ehp/hour buff). You also miss the interconnected nature of the game. EVERYTHING is economic. The the choice is adapt with cheaper ships in null of fly 5 bil isk vindicators and machs in high sec, high sec wins. Even now (with local in null), many choose to make the same or slightly less isk in incursions (or a lot less isk for no disruption in missions) rather than deal with null. The most probably outcome given the actual data available is that no local = less people in null and low sec, in the same way fewer people use wormholes (no local space) than use K (local) space. That hurts EVE as fewer people means fewer ships dying. Quote: Local is not part of a complex system, its a chat channel that was highjacked to provide way too much intel. Its a crutch to avoid danger in what should be the most dangerous and profitable space but for the alert becomes the most profitable and safe space in EvE.
Whether its replaced with a more reasonable system, whether hotdropping is altered or other changes are made is not really an argument against removing local or hiding cloaked ships. Theyre a separate issue.
This is where you fall completely off the tracks. The above is so dumb it's barely worth responding to. Good thing is that CCP (and our CSM that advises them) aren't nearly this narrow minded. In formulating your brilliant ideas, do you ever stop to wonder "how would this turn out if I'm wrong"? It takes time to replace a bunch of scared pvers with risk takers. If the profit is there people will come.
Regarding your last paragraph I think you failed to address it because it really is irrefutable. CSM are all nullets invested in the profit from a safe null. Devs I doubt all really agree with your or CSMs POV. |
|
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2232
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 16:54:00 -
[41] - Quote
A perfect example of what I said above. A change to how cynos work doesn't just affect afk cloakers trying to hotdrop, it affects other aspects of the game. You can't just say "make this simple change and everything will work out fine" in a complex interconnected system that 10s of thousands of human beings are using and trying to take apart.
The "Brilliant idea" people have never understood this concept at all. I tend to avoid the features and ideas section because of that. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2232
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 17:03:00 -
[42] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: It takes time to replace a bunch of scared pvers with risk takers. If the profit is there people will come.
Regarding your last paragraph I think you failed to address it because it really is irrefutable. CSM are all nullets invested in the profit from a safe null. Devs I doubt all really agree with your or CSMs POV.
Your ideas are wrong because they come from a place of tinfoli hattery and self serving bias. it's a good thing you're not a game maker.
We have plenty of evidence right now that what you expect to happen will not happen. Wormholes are at the top of the evidence pile (LOOK at the population numbers there). You can make more isk in a wormhole with a good organization than you can anywhere else, yet the general wormhole population is small and while i don't have the stats in front of me from that dev blog last year, i'd bet a lot of isk that wormholes have the lowest population density of any part of EVE.
And this is what you want to do to null/low sec? As I said, MOST people (especially most EVE players) aren't folks like me, most of them wouldn't screw with null with no local and no local replacement. And a small anom nerf was enough to damn near empty null, so believing that taking away local will somehow inspire the same people to stay in null is naive (bordering on irresponsible).
If you want a null with no local, suggest changes to the system that would work(not for you or me, but for the average null resident) and that take into account and mitigate the possible unintended consequences.
You and the rest of the "no local" crowd don't seem to understand the importance of this and then get a bit butt hurt when CCP ignores you as they have for the last decade. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
97
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 17:06:00 -
[43] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:A perfect example of what I said above. A change to how cynos work doesn't just affect afk cloakers trying to hotdrop, it affects other aspects of the game. You can't just say "make this simple change and everything will work out fine" in a complex interconnected system that 10s of thousands of human beings are using and trying to take apart. The "Brilliant idea" people have never understood this concept at all. I tend to avoid the features and ideas section because of that. A singular change to a interconnected system obviously wont work. A change would have to take into account the possible side effects if that change and address those issues too. It seems like you are attempting to discount changes to your "interconnected" system with rationalization based on simplistic solutions.
If a cyno had a delay before it could be used it could also have a equal delay before it could be interacted. It could then function as a warning, preventing hotdropping but allowing jump into system. All that eould have to change would be tactics. |
Evei Shard
193
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 17:11:00 -
[44] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:A perfect example of what I said above. A change to how cynos work doesn't just affect afk cloakers trying to hotdrop, it affects other aspects of the game. You can't just say "make this simple change and everything will work out fine" in a complex interconnected system that 10s of thousands of human beings are using and trying to take apart. The "Brilliant idea" people have never understood this concept at all. I tend to avoid the features and ideas section because of that.
Ok, I'll bite. What reasoning/excuse do you have for the idea of making the cyno ship untargetable during that time period (while the ship itself is completely disabled)? (lorewise: blame it on the space/time distortions caused by the process of opening the cyno) Profit favors the prepared |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2232
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 17:12:00 -
[45] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:A perfect example of what I said above. A change to how cynos work doesn't just affect afk cloakers trying to hotdrop, it affects other aspects of the game. You can't just say "make this simple change and everything will work out fine" in a complex interconnected system that 10s of thousands of human beings are using and trying to take apart. The "Brilliant idea" people have never understood this concept at all. I tend to avoid the features and ideas section because of that. A singular change to a interconnected system obviously wont work. A change would have to take into account the possible side effects if that change and address those issues too. It seems like you are attempting to discount changes to your "interconnected" system with rationalization based on simplistic solutions. If a cyno had a delay before it could be used it could also have a equal delay before it could be interacted. It could then function as a warning, preventing hotdropping but allowing jump into system. All that would have to change would be tactics.
The point of the current system for fleet warfare is that in doesn't just bring a fleet in, it allows us to do so while the enemy is in a position to be engaged.
A delay to a cyno means the enemy fleet can warp tot eh cyno, bubble the hell out of it and a sniper fit enemy force can sit there and pick off EVERYONE as they come in (since they are loading grid and tidi is in full effect).
It give a supreme advantage to the defender in a big fleet fight, making it WAY easier for alliances to entrench and hold space.
it took me 10 seconds to shoot holes in the idea of a delay cyno (the big hole of making sov warfare suck more than it does now to the benefit of old, big fatcat alliances). How many holes do you think thousands of other players could shoot through it? |
Ciyrine
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 17:12:00 -
[46] - Quote
If ur in null ratting in faction bs and afk cloaker is there u have no choice but to downgrade ur ship severely right? Get a cheaper ship with more focus on escape? Im a complete newb so i shouldnt even be here commenting but that does seem pretty drastic system wide effect with no ability to track the cloaker down.
Seems to me some difficult to accomplish scanning method would be appropriate so that retaliation would be possible. Everything is risk/reward what risk is the afk cloaker taking? If it took 2 hrs to track the cloaker down that would ne good option so that the cloaker and threatened players have active interaction.
So it wouldnt be about changing cloaking so much as giving players the ability to hunt the cloaker down like submarine and destroyers. Cat and mouse. If the cloaker goes afk he gets caught |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2232
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 17:14:00 -
[47] - Quote
Evei Shard wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:A perfect example of what I said above. A change to how cynos work doesn't just affect afk cloakers trying to hotdrop, it affects other aspects of the game. You can't just say "make this simple change and everything will work out fine" in a complex interconnected system that 10s of thousands of human beings are using and trying to take apart. The "Brilliant idea" people have never understood this concept at all. I tend to avoid the features and ideas section because of that. Ok, I'll bite. What reasoning/excuse do you have for the idea of making the cyno ship untargetable during that time period (while the ship itself is completely disabled)? (lorewise: blame it on the space/time distortions caused by the process of opening the cyno)
see the post directly below this one. in a big fleet fight all a defending FC would have to do is bubble the hell out of the cyno and area around it. a delayed cynoing fleet would get SLAUGHTERED by bombers and sniper doctrine fleets.
Come on guys, thinking ain't hard lol.
|
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
98
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 17:21:00 -
[48] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:A perfect example of what I said above. A change to how cynos work doesn't just affect afk cloakers trying to hotdrop, it affects other aspects of the game. You can't just say "make this simple change and everything will work out fine" in a complex interconnected system that 10s of thousands of human beings are using and trying to take apart. The "Brilliant idea" people have never understood this concept at all. I tend to avoid the features and ideas section because of that. A singular change to a interconnected system obviously wont work. A change would have to take into account the possible side effects if that change and address those issues too. It seems like you are attempting to discount changes to your "interconnected" system with rationalization based on simplistic solutions. If a cyno had a delay before it could be used it could also have a equal delay before it could be interacted. It could then function as a warning, preventing hotdropping but allowing jump into system. All that would have to change would be tactics. The point of the current system for fleet warfare is that in doesn't just bring a fleet in, it allows us to do so while the enemy is in a position to be engaged. A delay to a cyno means the enemy fleet can warp tot eh cyno, bubble the hell out of it and a sniper fit enemy force can sit there and pick off EVERYONE as they come in (since they are loading grid and tidi is in full effect). It give a supreme advantage to the defender in a big fleet fight, making it WAY easier for alliances to entrench and hold space. it took me 10 seconds to shoot holes in the idea of a delay cyno (the big hole of making sov warfare suck more than it does now to the benefit of old, big fatcat alliances). How many holes do you think thousands of other players could shoot through it? How do they warp to the cyno if its non-interactable while its in delayed mode? My point is a solution is not likely to be simplistic like "a delayed cyno". Im a computer programmer and as a computer programmer I realise any complex system that is tightly coupled needs a complex solution that is properly brainstormed and tested.
|
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
346
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 17:23:00 -
[49] - Quote
Ciyrine wrote:If ur in null ratting in faction bs and afk cloaker is there u have no choice but to downgrade ur ship severely right? Get a cheaper ship with more focus on escape? Im a complete newb so i shouldnt even be here commenting but that does seem pretty drastic system wide effect with no ability to track the cloaker down.
Seems to me some difficult to accomplish scanning method would be appropriate so that retaliation would be possible. Everything is risk/reward what risk is the afk cloaker taking? If it took 2 hrs to track the cloaker down that would ne good option so that the cloaker and threatened players have active interaction.
So it wouldnt be about changing cloaking so much as giving players the ability to hunt the cloaker down like submarine and destroyers. Cat and mouse. If the cloaker goes afk he gets caught
The point is that you really shouldn't feel free to be ratting in 0.0 in a faction fit battleship or carrier to begin with. You just do because local chat intel tells you the moment someone not blue to you and your alliance enters the system and you can warp to a safe point, dock up or cloak. It's a 100% safe way to care bear in what is supposed to be the harshest regions of space, but ironically it's often safer to do your pve deep in alliance nulsec pockets than it is to run missions in hi-sec.
AFK cloaking was a player made solution to the problem of infallible intel provided by local, and CCP has not had a problem with it ever since I joined the game in 08, if not much longer.
Of course, this means it might not be safe for you to rat in your faction fitted bs, but there is your risk versus reward. Honestly, I rat just fine in pvp fit ships, I don't make as much isk/hr as others but I havent lost a ratting ship since I was a noob. The problem is one and the same faced by hi-sec miners and suicide gankers. See, I and others like me have a problem with players loudly complaining that the game doesn't let them maximize their profit for no risk, instead of (in the case of hi-sec miners) sacrificing yield capability for enough tank to survive a gank long enough for CONCORD to arrive, or shipping down to a ship that gives options for dealing with possible threats from active and cloaked ships, or simply making yourself less of a target by not flying horribly expensive ships in the first place. |
Evei Shard
193
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 17:25:00 -
[50] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: see the post directly below this one. in a big fleet fight all a defending FC would have to do is bubble the hell out of the cyno and area around it. a delayed cynoing fleet would get SLAUGHTERED by bombers and sniper doctrine fleets.
Come on guys, thinking ain't hard lol.
Ok, so this is becoming a chain of problem/solutions, but I'll keep it going because I'm curious.
What are the current advantages to having a cyno show up on an overview with the ability to warp to it? The immediate "simple solution" to the above problem would be to remove cynos from that status, or make the cyno not show up until it is fully open. Profit favors the prepared |
|
Anne Dieu-le-veut
State War Academy Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 17:33:00 -
[51] - Quote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsiuxim8vsM
|
Ciyrine
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 17:38:00 -
[52] - Quote
Kijo Rikki wrote:
The point is that you really shouldn't feel free to be ratting in 0.0 in a faction fit battleship or carrier to begin with. You just do because local chat intel tells you the moment someone not blue to you and your alliance enters the system and you can warp to a safe point, dock up or cloak. It's a 100% safe way to care bear in what is supposed to be the harshest regions of space, but ironically it's often safer to do your pve deep in alliance nulsec pockets than it is to run missions in hi-sec.
AFK cloaking was a player made solution to the problem of infallible inded by local, and CCP has not had a problem with it ever since I joined the game in 08, if not much longer.
Of course, this means it might not be safe for you to rat in your faction fitted bs, but there is your risk versus reward. Honestly, I rat just fine in pvp fit ships, I don't make as much isk/hr as others but I havent lost a ratting ship since I was a noob. The problem is one and the same faced by hi-sec miners and suicide gankers. See, I and others like me have a problem with players loudly complaining that the game doesn't let them maximize their profit for no risk, instead of (in the case of hi-sec miners) sacrificing yield capability for enough tank to survive a gank long enough for CONCORD to arrive, or shipping down to a ship that gives options for dealing with possible threats from active and cloaked ships, or simply making yourself less of a target by not flying horribly expensive ships in the first place.
Sounds reasonable to me. Although it would be a fun addition to the game if hunting cloaked ships was like hunting subs :) |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
347
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 17:43:00 -
[53] - Quote
Ciyrine wrote:Kijo Rikki wrote:
The point is that you really shouldn't feel free to be ratting in 0.0 in a faction fit battleship or carrier to begin with. You just do because local chat intel tells you the moment someone not blue to you and your alliance enters the system and you can warp to a safe point, dock up or cloak. It's a 100% safe way to care bear in what is supposed to be the harshest regions of space, but ironically it's often safer to do your pve deep in alliance nulsec pockets than it is to run missions in hi-sec.
AFK cloaking was a player made solution to the problem of infallible inded by local, and CCP has not had a problem with it ever since I joined the game in 08, if not much longer.
Of course, this means it might not be safe for you to rat in your faction fitted bs, but there is your risk versus reward. Honestly, I rat just fine in pvp fit ships, I don't make as much isk/hr as others but I havent lost a ratting ship since I was a noob. The problem is one and the same faced by hi-sec miners and suicide gankers. See, I and others like me have a problem with players loudly complaining that the game doesn't let them maximize their profit for no risk, instead of (in the case of hi-sec miners) sacrificing yield capability for enough tank to survive a gank long enough for CONCORD to arrive, or shipping down to a ship that gives options for dealing with possible threats from active and cloaked ships, or simply making yourself less of a target by not flying horribly expensive ships in the first place.
Sounds reasonable to me. Although it would be a fun addition to the game if hunting cloaked ships was like hunting subs :)
I advocated the very idea once upon a time. :) |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2232
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 17:46:00 -
[54] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: How do they warp to the cyno if its non-interactable while its in delayed mode? My point is a solution is not likely to be simplistic like "a delayed cyno". Im a computer programmer and as a computer programmer I realise any complex system that is tightly coupled needs a complex solution that is properly brainstormed and tested.
And that breaks the fleet game in the opposite direction ie too much advantage to the attacker. The reason cynos show up as warpable beacons is so that the defender has a chance to deal with it before (or at least during) enemy transit.
But those are details, look at the big picture, all of this talk of chaining cynos, changing local etc, for what exactly, because some dude comes in, cloaks in a system and people are to timid to adapt?
That's why I adapted rather than hang my hopes on the idea that the game makers will make the situation perfect for me. At some point you have to understand that in an imperfect system sometimes things exist the way they do for a reason, and changing that should not be taken lightly because it could open up a pandora's box of unintended consequences.
Off the top of my head, for no local to work (but retaining the general ease of access to null which is a feature of "K" space) you'd need for "warping" to be slowed down (or a delay in being able to activate mods once you land...which again favors the defender/target too much imo), you'd need changes to how scanning and cloaks work, you'd have to figure out what to do with cynos and maybe consider a change to how null sec pve activites work (like having to scan down all pve sites except belts, easily warpable anomalies work because of local).
That's a lot of stuff to change and balance, and again, for what, because of cloaky campers that I personally learned to deal with 5 years ago lol.
I simply think there are more that enough tools to deal with the threat and i do so nightly in Catch (lol CATCH me if you can) |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2232
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 17:55:00 -
[55] - Quote
Evei Shard wrote:Jenn aSide wrote: see the post directly below this one. in a big fleet fight all a defending FC would have to do is bubble the hell out of the cyno and area around it. a delayed cynoing fleet would get SLAUGHTERED by bombers and sniper doctrine fleets.
Come on guys, thinking ain't hard lol.
Ok, so this is becoming a chain of problem/solutions, but I'll keep it going because I'm curious. What are the current advantages to having a cyno show up on an overview with the ability to warp to it? The immediate "simple solution" to the above problem would be to remove cynos from that status, or make the cyno not show up until it is fully open.
Oh hell no lol.
You're right, it is a chain of problems and solutions, because these are not isolated game features, EVE is a game and a game system so to speak.
This is why (for example) incursions were great and a smooth roll out (because incursions, like wormholes were designed with smart npcs in mind) while the roll of out the new NPC AI for existing missions and complexes was....less smooth (lol).
No local is great for wormholes, adds to the "lost in space" feel, but it works because of no gates and no cynos and having to scan down exits/entrances and because of generally low populations.
Same things with cynos, the current cyno mechanics does at least let people sometimes fight where a fight might not have happened (ie if a fleet could only enter via a gate that the enemy has camped, lots of fights would never have happened because a good FC won't jump a fleet into a same size or bigger gate campe).
etc etc etc. The main problem i have here is that their is no serious pressing need to totally upend EVERYTHING that EVE is and that works at least reasonably well because some dude in a cloak ship camped a ratting system somewhere lol. EVE already has tools for dealing with it (if only defensively, but that's all you really need).
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Galaxy Chicken
New Order Logistics CODE.
13
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 17:57:00 -
[56] - Quote
Hmmm, sounds emergent... I LIKE IT! |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
4654
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 17:57:00 -
[57] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:I set up my corporation a while ago to encourage people to AFK cloak in popular PvE null systems but unfortunately had to leave EvE for a while. Now Im back and having been inspired by recent complaints regarding cloaking have decided to take up that honorable cause once more.
I'm offering newbies 50 million per week to train a basic cloaking alt and then will assign them a system in null to afk cloak in when theyre not online.
I am calling for all those successful players who recognize the value of such a cause to sponsor their own newbie to do likewise. Recruit a newbie, assign him or her a system and send that brave pilot 50 mill. You will help EvE, cause tears and rage and be comforted in the knowledge thatfor a mere 50 mill you too are contributing to the creation of these wonderfully amusing threads.
What do you think of this idea?
My pants just got shorter because I hated it.
+1, continue doing the lords work. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Evei Shard
193
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 18:01:00 -
[58] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: How do they warp to the cyno if its non-interactable while its in delayed mode? My point is a solution is not likely to be simplistic like "a delayed cyno". Im a computer programmer and as a computer programmer I realise any complex system that is tightly coupled needs a complex solution that is properly brainstormed and tested.
And that breaks the fleet game in the opposite direction ie too much advantage to the attacker. The reason cynos show up as warpable beacons is so that the defender has a chance to deal with it before (or at least during) enemy transit.
And fleet belonging to the guy sitting cloaked 4000m off the target *doesn't* have "too much advantage"?
Set the whole AFK issue aside. How do you *expect* people to respond when someone is in system cloaked?
Profit favors the prepared |
Ciyrine
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 18:02:00 -
[59] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:[quote=Infinity Ziona]
I simply think there are more that enough tools to deal with the threat and i do so nightly in Catch (lol CATCH me if you can). The problem is that people aren't satisfied with the tools (that they don't use....). To me that's a personal problem.
What are the tools to deal with afk cloakers? I thoight it was downgrade ur ship and fly a more escapey ship |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2232
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 18:10:00 -
[60] - Quote
Evei Shard wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: How do they warp to the cyno if its non-interactable while its in delayed mode? My point is a solution is not likely to be simplistic like "a delayed cyno". Im a computer programmer and as a computer programmer I realise any complex system that is tightly coupled needs a complex solution that is properly brainstormed and tested.
And that breaks the fleet game in the opposite direction ie too much advantage to the attacker. The reason cynos show up as warpable beacons is so that the defender has a chance to deal with it before (or at least during) enemy transit. And fleet belonging to the guy sitting cloaked 4000m off the target *doesn't* have "too much advantage"? Set the whole AFK issue aside. How do you *expect* people to respond when someone is in system cloaked?
There are lots of ways to respond.
Rat/PVE in cheap ships and let them waste time and isk on killing you (calculate it as a cost of doin null business).
Rat/PVE in pvp fit ships and go down fighting like a boss.
Rat/PVE in a ship designed (by ccp or fitted by you) to escape ie FoF missile warp core stabbed ravens or drone boats or (if you have an alt/friend with a carrier, use a venture with fighter's assigned, the cloakys HATE that lol).
Dual/Triple Box RR ratting ships and make the "invader" pay a higher price for killing you.
PVE in a fleet, bait (or ignore) the cloaky, kill him if he decloaks.
Fit Cloak and MWD to ratting ship (or use carrier to jump out) and kill npcs elsewhere which keeps your isk flowing while making cloak boy was his sub time sitting around doing soothing...or get him to follow you and kill him on the next gate lol.
Those are just the things I've done alone and in concert with other people, not just for cloakys, but in general to protect myself in null because i don't assume safety even though some people swear null is safer than high lol.
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Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2232
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 18:11:00 -
[61] - Quote
Ciyrine wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:[quote=Infinity Ziona]
I simply think there are more that enough tools to deal with the threat and i do so nightly in Catch (lol CATCH me if you can). The problem is that people aren't satisfied with the tools (that they don't use....). To me that's a personal problem. What are the tools to deal with afk cloakers? I thoight it was downgrade ur ship and fly a more escapey ship
i fit a MJD to my machariel. i usually have a cloak on etc etc.
If you're flying a faction BS in null and taking no precautions, that's wrong to begin with. Null isn't high sec. if you die in null in a faction fitted pve BS, it's partly your own fault. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2232
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 18:14:00 -
[62] - Quote
Galaxy Chicken wrote:Hmmm, sounds emergent... I LIKE IT!
There's nothing wrong with what infinity is doing, what's wrong imo is the stated motivation. Infinity actually thinks that this will lead to a major policy change in CCP lol, all over things (like local) that might not be perfect but aren't the devastating problem some people make it out to be.
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Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
347
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 18:15:00 -
[63] - Quote
Several ways to deal with cloaky ships that you think are active. Fit a point on your ship and be in fleet with friends on standby, or pve together. If you think they might hot-drop fit a cyno as well and have people who love to counter-drop on standy.
Barring that just stay aligned, the instant something uncloaks he has to target you to point you, and the time it takes for system lag and all that jazz to get a lock is usually longer than the time it takes you to instawarp to something you were already lined up on. I have in my personal locations a folder named "Safe", in it are several. I always align to the first one when I land on a mission site or belt and its a simple matter to right click, mouse over safe, then t safe 1 and be gone. Alternatively if I am in a system with a POS I always align to that. Never to station, force of habit.
When we used to hunt carebears we'd often send an interdictor to station and bubble it, catching people trying to dock as soon as a red showed up in local. So never go for station.
Alternatively carry a flight of ecm drones. If you do get locked down deploy and sick them on the target and when the lock breaks run, its worth the investment and also if you're fast, you can click return to drone bay and you may save your drones to boot.
^ These are things I do regardless if there is a cloaked player in system. NEVER NOT PREPARED.
As an afterthought, its like wearing a seatbelt, you're not always going to get into an accident, but it's good to get into the habit, then the instant something bad happens you're ready to deal with it and not fly through a window or fly off the handle. |
Evei Shard
193
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 18:20:00 -
[64] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:*edit to snip, quotes were getting a bit long
Those are workable solutions, except that this is Eve. Thousands of dollars, if not more, are spent annually in this game by people choosing to operate at a total loss, simply because it "messes with someone". The concept of beating them through attrition by using cheaper ships and making it become "too expensive" for them is moot thanks to PLEX. Profit favors the prepared |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
349
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 18:26:00 -
[65] - Quote
Evei Shard wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:*edit to snip, quotes were getting a bit long
Those are workable solutions, except that this is Eve. Thousands of dollars, if not more, are spent annually in this game by people choosing to operate at a total loss, simply because it "messes with someone". The concept of beating them through attrition by using cheaper ships and making it become "too expensive" for them is moot thanks to PLEX.
Not completely. You can't stop the people who do it for the lulz, but generally speaking I don't believe most people are going to waste more than 30 minutes hunting some carebear in a cheap fit drake or raven. You have to remember if he plans to bring down a battlecruiser or higher as a cloaked ship, he's going to need friends, and they're not going ot want to be sitting in space waiting for a guy to get point on a drake for over 30 minutes or longer. That kind of stuff is reserved for carriers and juicy targets. PvP players aren't usually worried about the isk war when roaming, they just want the killmail, but small potatoes combined with losses makes their stats look bad, and that does bother some. |
Faenir Antollare
University of Caille Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 18:26:00 -
[66] - Quote
Whilst not looking for a sponsor, as I don't tend to afk a lot whilst doing my sneaky beaky round the Universe in 80days Alan Whicker esq style, I have decided, after reading this thread, to add a full compliment of Combat Probes to my travelling inventory
All is fair in Love and War
/Fly True Les |
KrakizBad
Section 8. Fatal Ascension
1357
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 18:31:00 -
[67] - Quote
This is a wonderful denial-of-space service. I approve. www.minerbumping.com - because your tears are delicious |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2233
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 18:35:00 -
[68] - Quote
Evei Shard wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:*edit to snip, quotes were getting a bit long
Those are workable solutions, except that this is Eve. Thousands of dollars, if not more, are spent annually in this game by people choosing to operate at a total loss, simply because it "messes with someone". The concept of beating them through attrition by using cheaper ships and making it become "too expensive" for them is moot thanks to PLEX.
I ddin't say by attrition, I'm simply saying that there isn't a real problem that needs such major fixing as to upend the whole game when one can simply do minor things and protect yourself from the dreaded "cloaky".
It's like in real life (in my country) where something happens, people think "there outta be a law" so the government makes a new law (usually named after a victim, NAMED LAWS are generally bad). Not only does the new law not fix the original problem, it creates other problems (like with Civil liberties) and society is worse off than it would have been if it had just left well enough alone lol.
This situation strikes me as the same. i don't like cloak campers but i deal with them and do not advocate some massive ccp led over-reaction that could hurt the game experiance for many people.. I think most of the thinking behind cloakers and gankers and cynos and local is illogical to be honest.
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Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
108
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Posted - 2013.06.20 22:01:00 -
[69] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Evei Shard wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:*edit to snip, quotes were getting a bit long
Those are workable solutions, except that this is Eve. Thousands of dollars, if not more, are spent annually in this game by people choosing to operate at a total loss, simply because it "messes with someone". The concept of beating them through attrition by using cheaper ships and making it become "too expensive" for them is moot thanks to PLEX. I ddin't say by attrition, I'm simply saying that there isn't a real problem that needs such major fixing as to upend the whole game when one can simply do minor things and protect yourself from the dreaded "cloaky". It's like in real life (in my country) where something happens, people think "there outta be a law" so the government makes a new law (usually named after a victim, NAMED LAWS are generally bad). Not only does the new law not fix the original problem, it creates other problems (like with Civil liberties) and society is worse off than it would have been if it had just left well enough alone lol. This situation strikes me as the same. i don't like cloak campers but i deal with them and do not advocate some massive ccp led over-reaction that could hurt the game experiance for many people.. I think most of the thinking behind cloakers and gankers and cynos and local is illogical to be honest. I think both AFK cloaking and the whining about the same are symptoms of a serious problem in null. AFK cloaking is a response to local being way too powerful and the whines are due to the same.
One of the reasons people AFK cloak is to limit the overpoweredness of local - to sneak up on an alert risk averse person in null is impossible without leaving yourself or alt permanantly in system and hope they will assume you are AFK and will resume normal activities.
Another reason is to exploit the over reliance of local chat by null seccers, leaving yourself or an alt in system to psychologically harass the risk averse by denying them their usual 99.9% safety provided by local. The other .01% being occasional awoxing.
I think denying there is a problem is just burying your head in the sand.
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KrakizBad
Section 8. Fatal Ascension
1357
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 23:25:00 -
[70] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Snip What problem? Sounds like a good tactic to me.
Is the problem that people are risk averse or that you can't catch someone alert? www.minerbumping.com - because your tears are delicious |
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Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
110
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Posted - 2013.06.21 05:15:00 -
[71] - Quote
KrakizBad wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Snip What problem? Sounds like a good tactic to me. Is the problem that people are risk averse or that you can't catch someone alert? The problem is people are risk averse and local provides them with complete safety.
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5614
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 05:24:00 -
[72] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:KrakizBad wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Snip What problem? Sounds like a good tactic to me. Is the problem that people are risk averse or that you can't catch someone alert? The problem is people are risk averse and local provides them with complete safety. Complete safety? You sure about that? -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
112
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Posted - 2013.06.21 12:32:00 -
[73] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:KrakizBad wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Snip What problem? Sounds like a good tactic to me. Is the problem that people are risk averse or that you can't catch someone alert? The problem is people are risk averse and local provides them with complete safety. Complete safety? You sure about that? Yes apart from blue on blue its possible to remain in null and never be in any danger from other players. Its not possible to jump in and point someone before they can log or be in pos when local provides instant accurate info of your presence before you appear in system.
It was a bit better before CCP added those stupid alliance tickers. The occasional stupid would not check but now you know nuetral instantly. |
Parabrahman
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 16:18:00 -
[74] - Quote
EvE Online is the only game where being AFK is the most overpowered feature.
You can literary go shopping for groceries while other people quit EvE because of you. And all you do is buying some veggies, is that too much? Do you hate veggies so much? |
De'Veldrin
East India Ore Trade The East India Co.
1610
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 16:49:00 -
[75] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
If you're flying a faction BS in null and taking no precautions, that's wrong to begin with. Null isn't high sec. if you die in null in a faction fitted pve BS, it's partly completely your own fault.
Fixed your post for you.
And I only say that because, with the way null is set up now, with multiple intel channels covering everything for lightyears (hell I get intel from the other side of the galaxy in some cases), if you die to non-consensual PVP in nullsec at all, it's because you made a mistake of some kind - looking back at all of my non-consensual deaths in recent months, I can point out exactly the mistake I made, and what I should have done differently. Eve Online: The full-contact sport for your brain. |
De'Veldrin
East India Ore Trade The East India Co.
1610
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 16:51:00 -
[76] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:KrakizBad wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Snip What problem? Sounds like a good tactic to me. Is the problem that people are risk averse or that you can't catch someone alert? The problem is people are risk averse and local provides them with complete safety. Complete safety? You sure about that?
As long as they are taking precautions, paying attention, and not flying like it's highsec, then yes. It's not 100% (so ok, not complete safety) but it's as near as you can get without CCP taking away everyone's weapons. Arguably, it's somewhat more safe than highsec. Eve Online: The full-contact sport for your brain. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2260
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 17:19:00 -
[77] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: I think both AFK cloaking and the whining about the same are symptoms of a serious problem in null. AFK cloaking is a response to local being way too powerful and the whines are due to the same.
AFK cloaking is a tactic used by people that have realized that some players can be manipulated by fear (of loss and of the unknown). I see local as the medium by with the tactic is applied, not it's cause.
People cloak and go afk in wormholes all the time (sometimes the WHs own residents do it because they don't want new people who come in to their WH to see what they are flying on D-scan while they are away. I ninja rat and afk cloak all the time in completely empty systems (so i can go take care of real life business) rather than relogging.
And that's some of what I think you are missing, you are focusing on one aspect of cloaking and going afk (the part that seems to be intended to disrupt others) while ignoring the rest. Because you're ignoring the rest you aren't thinking clearly about it's usefulness and existence.
Quote: One of the reasons people AFK cloak is to limit the overpoweredness of local - to sneak up on an alert risk averse person in null is impossible without leaving yourself or alt permanantly in system and hope they will assume you are AFK and will resume normal activities.
This is not completely true.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15683454
This wasn't an afk cloaker or anything, these guys came in while i was in an anomalie and i got pointed by 3 npcs at once (damn the luck), killed 2 npcs before the cynabal landed, hand another in hull, almost killed a cynabal before i went down to. i got complacent and didn't fit to survive so i died (GF you HUN MFrs ). I also died once a few years ago when stuck on an asteroid, and i've seen people bump off station and die.
Even an alert pilot can die in null sec under the right circumstances.
But even if an alert piolto could NEVER be caught in null, what is the alternative? PVE players left null when the isk/hr from anoms took a slight dip because of a nerf, you think the same PVE pilots (except the crazy ones like me) would stay with no loca (and fewer pve guys in null means less kills like mine I lined above)l? If you believe that, then explain why wormholes have the lowest share of EVE's population despite being THE most profitable place ever.
I'm serious, I made like a bil a day in a wormhole with a small WH corp, and that was in a c4.
You have to take human being into consideration when you form and support ideas about game design. i don't think you are doing that.
Quote: Another reason is to exploit the over reliance of local chat by null seccers, leaving yourself or an alt in system to psychologically harass the risk averse by denying them their usual 99.9% safety provided by local. The other .01% being occasional awoxing.
\
Those nullbears that let themsevles be affected by it, deserve it.
Quote: I think denying there is a problem is just burying your head in the sand.
I'm sorry it's such a problem for you. It is not for me. |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
321
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Posted - 2013.06.21 22:19:00 -
[78] - Quote
Thread has been moved to Crime & Punishment. ISD Ezwal Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Xolve
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1525
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 06:56:00 -
[79] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:One of the reasons people AFK cloak is to limit the overpoweredness of local - to sneak up on an alert risk averse person in null is impossible without leaving yourself or alt permanantly in system and hope they will assume you are AFK and will resume normal activities.
If they are AFK, how are they dangerous?
Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator. |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
116
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 09:14:00 -
[80] - Quote
Xolve wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:One of the reasons people AFK cloak is to limit the overpoweredness of local - to sneak up on an alert risk averse person in null is impossible without leaving yourself or alt permanantly in system and hope they will assume you are AFK and will resume normal activities. If they are AFK, how are they dangerous? Your post in response to the qouted text makes no sense. Im assuming you assumed I believed they are dangerous when in fact I realise they are completely harmless AFK. |
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Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
2
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Posted - 2013.06.22 11:12:00 -
[81] - Quote
Ah'ma gonner be gettun as manny o'ma Clan t'go'n do this service with all'o'ya's while'n we wait fer sum skills't ma-tee-ure. |
Kali Omega
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
135
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 16:52:00 -
[82] - Quote
+1 |
Xolve
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1526
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 21:18:00 -
[83] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Your post in response to the qouted text makes no sense. Im assuming you assumed I believed they are dangerous when in fact I realise they are completely harmless AFK.
You may have missed the point, it was kind of funny, go read it again. Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator. |
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
30
|
Posted - 2013.06.23 04:58:00 -
[84] - Quote
How bout we go full realism on this problem's ass?
A real cloak would prevent the ship getting any feedback from the EM waves it's hiding from, so -
Cloakies disappear from local, but Cloakies can't use d-scan and get no overview scanner/visual feedback/ect.
I think it would make for some interesting gameplay. |
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