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CCP Spitfire
C C P C C P Alliance
340
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Posted - 2011.10.24 06:59:00 -
[31] - Quote
Inappropriate and offtopic posts removed. Please keep the discussion civil.
CCP Spitfire | Russian Community Coordinator @ccp_spitfire |
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Gheng Kondur
Serva Fidem
14
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Posted - 2011.10.24 07:31:00 -
[32] - Quote
The OP is right and the same applies to small corps too.
The only thing this really does is allow for setting up a big 'kick me' sign in low sec, and there are always people willing to do that.
0.0 and WH, fine, why should there be COs there already. But low sec which is supposed to be controlled by a faction (at least to some extent) that faction would give up tax rights and sit back to watch people blowing these things up. Might as well start calling low sec 0.0 without the sov system and protections that apply.
High Sec tax I don't like (who does like taxes) but my corp move to a low sec pos and PI is now on hold as the choice of multiple planatray launches or launching at least half a bill worth of kick me signs does not appeal.
I'll get there, it will just take longer, as long as CCP don't bring in more barriers |
Via Shivon
Kriegsmarinewerft Goonswarm Federation
9
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Posted - 2011.10.24 08:57:00 -
[33] - Quote
Killstealing wrote:remove empire PI
This!
Level 4 Missis Producing Trading Pi
...sim eve with 99,9% secure not dieing |
Lutz Major
Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo
23
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Posted - 2011.10.24 09:06:00 -
[34] - Quote
Gheng Kondur wrote:... But low sec which is supposed to be controlled by a faction (at least to some extent) that faction would give up tax rights and sit back to watch people blowing these things up. Might as well start calling low sec 0.0 without the sov system and protections that apply ... You are not very proficient in history, right? Prospectors were always private companies.
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Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers Black Thorne Alliance
27
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Posted - 2011.10.24 09:53:00 -
[35] - Quote
I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what the PI changes will entail.
In no way will it stop solo operations, it will simply make them a bit more expensive (I doubt that they would be more challenging)
Here are the cases you will find yourself in:
1) Planet has no customs office two options:
- Install your own customs office
- Lauch payloads into deep space for collection instead
2) Planet has a customs office which you do not own (again two options)
- Pay the fees set by the owner of the customs office
- Lauch payloads into deep space for collection instead
3) Planet has your customs office in place
- Set whatever fees you fancy
- If attacked, either defend or abandon the structure
Whatever path you chose you can still work solo - the only downside is that if you don't have access to a customs office there is no way to actually get materials back down onto a planet for processing. But hey that's what highsec is for. |
Pooping Bear
Balance of Judgment G Spot Alliance
0
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Posted - 2011.10.24 09:58:00 -
[36] - Quote
Shin'rohtak wrote:The only thing that is changing is that someone has to put an office on that planet. Do it yourself or pay for a corp to set one up for you and protect it as well. Ya you'll pay what ever tax they setup. But its smaller than high sec if you find the right corp.
Yes, but the problem is that only ONE can be anchored PER PLANET. Which means that the more valuble planets are going to host an exceptionally larger amount of killmails... i.e. camps, roamers deciding to get a few custom office kills, and/or entire goddamn wars.
PI is now going to be on par with the contesting for moon resources. Granted, ther are a lot more planets of one type that moons with one type of material in them, but still.
Lowsec will now become closer in intensity (in terms of territorial fighting) as nullsec, but in terms of profitability against missions in highsec or ratting in nullsec will still be far inferior. So, lowsec will now become a purely industrial venture.
The solo player is not going to be able to do lowsec PI anymore.
Say they somehow manage to get their hands on a Customs Office BPC and all the materials, and they build it, and claim a planet and work their PI.
A few days later, a local corp or alliance blows it up and puts their own in. A few days later, another corp or allaince does the same thing. And then Goonswarm flies through and blows up all the offices in the system for LOLs.
Repeat.
If the Incursion/Faction Warfare requirement didn't exist, I'd be more OK with this. At least the Customs Offices would be more easily replenishable. However, CCP is now forcing people to do things that didn't end up as awesome as they had hoped in order to simply keep POSs running.
It's unfair, to say the least. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
21
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Posted - 2011.10.24 12:28:00 -
[37] - Quote
Pooping Bear wrote:Shin'rohtak wrote:The only thing that is changing is that someone has to put an office on that planet. Do it yourself or pay for a corp to set one up for you and protect it as well. Ya you'll pay what ever tax they setup. But its smaller than high sec if you find the right corp. Yes, but the problem is that only ONE can be anchored PER PLANET. Which means that the more valuble planets are going to host an exceptionally larger amount of killmails... i.e. camps, roamers deciding to get a few custom office kills, and/or entire goddamn wars. PI is now going to be on par with the contesting for moon resources. Granted, ther are a lot more planets of one type that moons with one type of material in them, but still. Lowsec will now become closer in intensity (in terms of territorial fighting) as nullsec, but in terms of profitability against missions in highsec or ratting in nullsec will still be far inferior. So, lowsec will now become a purely industrial venture. The solo player is not going to be able to do lowsec PI anymore. Say they somehow manage to get their hands on a Customs Office BPC and all the materials, and they build it, and claim a planet and work their PI. A few days later, a local corp or alliance blows it up and puts their own in. A few days later, another corp or allaince does the same thing. And then Goonswarm flies through and blows up all the offices in the system for LOLs. Repeat. If the Incursion/Faction Warfare requirement didn't exist, I'd be more OK with this. At least the Customs Offices would be more easily replenishable. However, CCP is now forcing people to do things that didn't end up as awesome as they had hoped in order to simply keep POSs running. It's unfair, to say the least.
I fail to see the problem here.
Let's say you're the solo dude, doing his own thing and we come across your POCO. Now, we're already managing a few planets, and really just need one or two items off your planet. You also need stuff that we produce...
so, we have two (2) options really: 1. work together, come to some form of fair trade/use agreement. 2. blow your POCO away, and set up our own (adding *yet another* planet that we have to defend).
After a corp has a few planets, which do you think they'd rather do?
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XXSketchxx
Remote Soviet Industries
54
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Posted - 2011.10.24 14:24:00 -
[38] - Quote
Cyniac wrote:I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what the PI changes will entail. In no way will it stop solo operations, it will simply make them a bit more expensive (I doubt that they would be more challenging) Here are the cases you will find yourself in: 1) Planet has no customs office two options:
- Install your own customs office
- Lauch payloads into deep space for collection instead
2) Planet has a customs office which you do not own (again two options)
- Pay the fees set by the owner of the customs office
- Lauch payloads into deep space for collection instead
3) Planet has your customs office in place
- Set whatever fees you fancy
- If attacked, either defend or abandon the structure
Whatever path you chose you can still work solo - the only downside is that if you don't have access to a customs office there is no way to actually get materials back down onto a planet for processing. But hey that's what highsec is for.
This is a really really good point and illustrates a good understanding of what CCP is trying to do with CO.
They are trying to make them an asset in relation to PI that you have to protect. Essentially, by interacting with a planet you are "claiming it." Guess what? Claims have to be defended. Now, PI has player interaction if you want to really "claim" said planet.
However, as noted, you can still deploy stuff to space. You can still "ninja" PI materials. Have your manufacture planets in high sec and ninja out the base stuff you extract and react on the planet (P1 items i thin k?). Is it more difficult than current status quo? Absolutely. But now there is one more thing to "claim" in low sec. And unlike high end moons, planets are not so great that 0.0 alliances will be coming in and claiming all of them. Rather, low sec corporations/alliances will be able to claim/fight over them.
This is actually a damn good move on CCP's part. |
Qalix
Jump Frog
4
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Posted - 2011.10.24 16:45:00 -
[39] - Quote
If the changes to customs offices bother you, you had better prepare yourself for next year. When DUST comes out, PI will be in the hands of the DUST mercs. The end result will eventually be that DUSTers control PI and thus outpost, POS, etc production. That is to say, the groundlings will indirectly control the sky kingdoms. |
stoicfaux
315
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Posted - 2011.10.24 17:05:00 -
[40] - Quote
Out of curiousity, how long will it take to setup and tear down a POCO? Will the cost of the POCO be low enough that it can just be added in as PI overhead on the balance sheets? And how likely is it that low-sec dwellers are the type to setup POCOs of their own in order to prevent a Planeteer from setting up a POCO just long enough to transport their PI goods out?
Tinfoil. It should be at the top of everyone's food pyramid.
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Dietrich VonMirat
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2011.10.24 20:19:00 -
[41] - Quote
The concept of the player owned structure fits well within the existing Eve framework, both thematically and practically.
The OP is correct in that it will make low sec PI more difficult and/or more expensive for the solo player.
That doesn't make it wrong, however. Any "improvement" to the game necessitates change, and those changes will invariably benefit some aspects and hinder others. In this case the transition of planets from a "magic bag of endless coins" to actual contested property is a huge step forward for realism.
Does Eve cater slightly more toward collaboration and teamwork? Yes. So does capitalism, and so does life in general. -áSolo players, by virtue of their existence, thrive on self reliance and adaptability. -áThese same traits will weather them through the storm until they find a new profit/risk balance with PI. |
Lutz Major
Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo
25
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Posted - 2011.10.24 20:54:00 -
[42] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Out of curiousity, how long will it take to setup and tear down a POCO? Will the cost of the POCO be low enough that it can just be added in as PI overhead on the balance sheets? And how likely is it that low-sec dwellers are the type to setup POCOs of their own in order to prevent a Planeteer from setting up a POCO just long enough to transport their PI goods out?
Well according to the devblog and the materials needed, the material costs are _currently_ at or about 70 million. Plus the BPC, which you get in FW fo 10M or through CONCORD LP store 20M
It's not exactly the build and tear down item. |
DigDoug
Amber Lamps Labs IMPERIAL LEGI0N
12
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Posted - 2011.10.25 05:58:00 -
[43] - Quote
There is great potential here for a lot of repercussions that probably haven't been considered.
IMO player owned customs offices should be tied directly into the soverignty system. Low sec should not have player owned offices. The tax rate for low sec and high sec should have a certain base which is then modified by your standings with the controlling faction.
In Null Sec the offices should be tied to sov structures and invulnerable following the same rules and system that is already in place for attacking ihubs, tcu's and outposts. This not only lends to greater stability in the PI system but it also just makes a whole lot of sense because it follows in the same path of what has already been done. |
Alain Kinsella
5
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Posted - 2011.10.25 09:48:00 -
[44] - Quote
Also need to remember that the link capacity is being raised a lot. This could make single-planet P3 chains viable again - especially in Low. Been thinking about this a lot (as one of the disappointed folks), and will need to check SiSi soon, but I'm beginning to be swayed by the advantages here.
Consider, if you're only generating 150-200 P3 or so each day, that's still within one CC launch (and only needs a CovOps to get it out, not a BR). That's much more economical for the starting player than the larger scale Low PI being done today.
Will it be more dangerous? Oh hell yes. But nothing ventured, nothing gained... I may have come here from Myst Online, but that does not make me any less bloodthirsty than the average Eve player.
Just more subtle.
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Vorpheus
Three Sword Inc
0
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Posted - 2011.10.25 10:04:00 -
[45] - Quote
i could guess that pandemic legion, after their claiming of the amamake system, are more than happy to allow you the usage of their customs-offices... for a price... see we just found out the truthness behind their acts in the minmatar lowsec... to increase the taxes...
Ring ring ring ring ring ring ring Pandemic phone |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
435
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Posted - 2011.10.25 12:55:00 -
[46] - Quote
XXSketchxx wrote:Cyniac wrote:I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what the PI changes will entail. In no way will it stop solo operations, it will simply make them a bit more expensive (I doubt that they would be more challenging) Here are the cases you will find yourself in: 1) Planet has no customs office two options:
- Install your own customs office
- Lauch payloads into deep space for collection instead
2) Planet has a customs office which you do not own (again two options)
- Pay the fees set by the owner of the customs office
- Lauch payloads into deep space for collection instead
3) Planet has your customs office in place
- Set whatever fees you fancy
- If attacked, either defend or abandon the structure
Whatever path you chose you can still work solo - the only downside is that if you don't have access to a customs office there is no way to actually get materials back down onto a planet for processing. But hey that's what highsec is for. This is a really really good point and illustrates a good understanding of what CCP is trying to do with CO. They are trying to make them an asset in relation to PI that you have to protect. Essentially, by interacting with a planet you are "claiming it." Guess what? Claims have to be defended. Now, PI has player interaction if you want to really "claim" said planet. However, as noted, you can still deploy stuff to space. You can still "ninja" PI materials. Have your manufacture planets in high sec and ninja out the base stuff you extract and react on the planet (P1 items i thin k?). Is it more difficult than current status quo? Absolutely. But now there is one more thing to "claim" in low sec. And unlike high end moons, planets are not so great that 0.0 alliances will be coming in and claiming all of them. Rather, low sec corporations/alliances will be able to claim/fight over them. This is actually a damn good move on CCP's part.
No it isn't. It shows a lack of understanding of how PI works. For example, how can someone in an npc corp, for example, that has PI set up in a neighboring low sec system with no POCO at the planet now lauch materials TO the planet for further refining? Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Inquisitor Magneto
Bishop Intergalactic Ventures The Interstellar Contract Agency
2
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Posted - 2011.10.25 13:47:00 -
[47] - Quote
Hmmm, while the OP has a nice point in playing solo, let us not forget what sort of game this is. I love this game for its many features and direct interaction. Its realness and not dumbing down the risk of actually flying in space. I to was a solo captain for many years. Lost lost of isk and ships in the play. Now i know better and understand the idea of playing with other and working together.
As a solo person of 8 years you should know by now the risk of such an attribute. You can not have your cake and icecream. If you wish to play solo then no one is stopping you. CCP is just putting the crap out there for you to use in whatever way you want. As a solo player your charisma is suppose to be superb in making treaties and getting temp bands together for the greater good of your sector. As a solo player you should have a pos operational and decked out. Now solo play is just that. SOLO. you will be on your own. no one to back u up or help in time of need. no other brains to give you sound advice and basically you are a pirate. To actually think you are alone or solo is crazy ad you are always in a corp in this game but the illusion of solo i guess is cool. lol
Frankly you cant ask to play solo and get mad or disturbed when ccp does something for the whole of the community. You as a solo player can make preparations for the change. I know i did when the IP system came online and i have taken advantage of its many changes and fronts since then. I say suck it up and figure out the best way to manage. its space. over 60,000 planets so uhmmm yeah. dont you have two character accounts anyway lol |
Taedrin
Kushan Industrial
127
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Posted - 2011.10.25 14:35:00 -
[48] - Quote
The only concern that I have is "blobability". If defending a POCO is the same as defending a POS, except you don't have guns, then it will DEFINITELY involve blobs.
If somehow CCP can engineer an encounter which favors small gangs over blobs, then it will be perfect. If not, then I fear that POCOs will become simply yet another resource which is controlled by large power blocs.
After all, I could easily envision an entity like the goons or PL go around and control as many POCOs as possible, just so they can deny everyone else access to them. Not because they want more money, or because they want to use them - but just because they want to cause chaos. |
cap Mal
Defense Advanced Research Program Agency
0
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Posted - 2011.10.25 15:11:00 -
[49] - Quote
The last thing PL and the Goons want to do is jump from low sec system to low sec system shooting at structures that don't shoot back. Grinding that kind of stuff gets old fast. And the income they could generate by spamming POCOs isn't worth it. |
Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers Black Thorne Alliance
28
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Posted - 2011.10.25 16:45:00 -
[50] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:XXSketchxx wrote:Cyniac wrote: Whatever path you chose you can still work solo - the only downside is that if you don't have access to a customs office there is no way to actually get materials back down onto a planet for processing. But hey that's what highsec is for.
This is a really really good point and illustrates a good understanding of what CCP is trying to do with CO. No it isn't. It shows a lack of understanding of how PI works. For example, how can someone in an npc corp, for example, that has PI set up in a neighboring low sec system with no POCO at the planet now lauch materials TO the planet for further refining?
Highlighted the relevant part for you. I'd appreciate it if you took the time to read a text carefully before making misleading statements.
You cannot put materials back in the planets - that's the only downside of the system that's proposed. You do raise an interesting point that NPC corp pilots will have to make a further choice, either leave the NPC corp or forgo the anchoring of structures (or be sneaky and convince someone to anchor the structures for them.) |
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XXSketchxx
Remote Soviet Industries
58
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Posted - 2011.10.25 17:59:00 -
[51] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:
No it isn't. It shows a lack of understanding of how PI works. For example, how can someone in an npc corp, for example, that has PI set up in a neighboring low sec system with no POCO at the planet now lauch materials TO the planet for further refining?
Is that the only part of my post you read? Are you ******** or something?
Re: high sec. Export your precious stuff to high sec and use the NPC customs offices.
That was hard wasn't it? |
bilingi
Ghosts of the Storm
6
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Posted - 2011.10.25 22:55:00 -
[52] - Quote
Man you really are stupid.. Or more likely a RMT allaince Botter. |
Dietrich VonMirat
University of Caille Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2011.10.26 19:01:00 -
[53] - Quote
I've seem some interesting questions posed here about the "attackability" of the POCO.
Faction warfare has really shown us that many pvp/low-sec oriented players aren't into bunker bashing for the sake of bunker bashing. It can at times serve as a good way to pick a fight, but in most cases that requires that the bunker being bashed belongs to a sizeable enough force to warrant the time spent picking a fight. -áIf the POCO belongs to a solo player or small industrial corp, there is just no payoff to bunker bashing their structures unless it's an extremely valuable planet. The other reason might be that they are trying to stake out turf in low-sec, but this happens now anyway.
It's true, there will be some Sunday funday fleets that like to shoot stuff up for the sake of aggravating commerce (or other players), but I think this will turn out to be the exception and not the rule.
I think a slightly more significant threat to solo players comes with the issue of there being only one POCO per planet. -áThis makes a great ganking bottleneck.
I think it's far more likely that low sec corps and players will leave most POCO's alone hoping for a chance to ganking the ship and player using it. |
Ch33z0rz
Aether Tech
2
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Posted - 2011.10.27 04:43:00 -
[54] - Quote
Maybe I am the ******, but I can't find anything official about this proposed change. Linkage requested. |
Steven Fonulique
SF Incorporated
3
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Posted - 2011.10.27 14:23:00 -
[55] - Quote
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2899 |
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