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James 420
EVE Corporation 98188875
12
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Posted - 2013.06.01 14:10:00 -
[451] - Quote
Andski wrote: yes I remember reading all of those PC Gamer articles about the amazing exploits of some highsec miner
oh wait you're wrong because nullseccers are actually the most important players in this game since they create the only content that matters, like the battle of asakai and burn jita, while highseccers on the other hand are seen but not heard and never make any meaningful impact anywhere
That's maybe because most nullsec players are just following fleets to spam f1 on primaries, it's easier to coordinate such docile players for those "events", average nullsec player is just a % of a blob this is not what I call interesting . Highsec has more interesting scamming, highsec has more interesting awoxing, highsec has more interesting market manipulation, etc. The fact that people outside of the game are more interested in events where "10000 ships are blowing" is perfectly normal, they have no idea what tidi is. Null is not endgame, this is a sandbox game don't forget to say hi when you come to buy some goodies at jita. xoxoxox ^__^
Proud enforcer of 420 BLAZE IT |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
383
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 14:11:00 -
[452] - Quote
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:Malcanis wrote:Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:Why is there no way for us to attack supply lines in eve?
The addition of Jump capable ships, made supplying large groups less of a chore, but had the adverse effect of making supply lines completely immune to attack in any meaningful form. http://eve-kill.net/?a=home&scl_id=600There sure are a lot of "completely immune to attack in any meaningful form" ships dying out there. I to can link a KB that lists a lot of freighter kills of NONE alliance logistics freighters and JF's, i do know there are pubbie tards getting killed in there shiny freighters, but there jumping there crap or some friends crap. Thos do not equal the supply's of these alliances. I clearly state ALLIANCE Level Logistic's and you give me a KB full of random no name alliance Line member's.
Edit : did i just have a CSM try and turn this thread into a whine thread about how highsec is so much better than null? NO, just no, you come into a thread about supply interdiction and whine about having to get supply's and suggest to make Null even less required to move things and easier to do? Your hole Whine would do nothing but make null sec full of instant docking mining fleets because, LOCAL.
Plenty of alliances use out of corp haulers on a daily basis. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
116
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Posted - 2013.06.01 14:13:00 -
[453] - Quote
Andski wrote:Delen Ormand wrote:How much publicity a group gets doesn't relate to how meaningful they are to a society. In real life, we'd have much more trouble getting on without nurses, teachers, garbage collectors and builders than we would if we got rid of say, professional footballers - but who gets the most attention and money? Burn Jita would have been meaningless without the traders, haulers and the rest.
please don't make real life comparisons if you want to be taken half seriously it's not about the publicity the group gets it's about the publicity their activities create for the game
What, are you saying nothing in the game should be compared to real life? And that a player's 'worth' should be measured by the publicity they make for the game?
If so, those statements don't make a lot of sense.
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Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1923
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 14:18:00 -
[454] - Quote
Put standings restrictions on science and industry lines. It's a soft nerf to the amount available as you can just go and get standings for the lines you need. Let's say:
1/2 still public 1/6th faction standing restricted (1/3rd each open at 2, 4 and 6) 1/3rd corporation standing restricted (1/3rd each open at 4, 6 and 8)
More special lines open when you get above 9.99 Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
383
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 14:25:00 -
[455] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Tippia wrote:That's not really a statement anyone makes, though. The statement is that improved nullsec industry and nerfed highsec industry (and yes, it must be that one-two-punch) will make nullsec players go to null GÇö specifically, it will make the null industrialists go back home rather than sit around in highsec and ruin the lives of the highsec industrialists.
This can't be said enough. It's ironic (in a double standard kind of way) that so many high sec peeps say "you can't make me go to null" while at the same time supporting a status quo where they benifit/profit from null players who would rather be in null but can't because Empire is so much more lucrative..
Strangely enough, nullsec denizens are equally guilty of contributing to the problem they complain about. Over and over that has been explained unfortunately =( "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
baltec1
Bat Country
6736
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 14:30:00 -
[456] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:
Strangely enough, nullsec denizens are equally guilty of contributing to the problem they complain about. Over and over that has been explained unfortunately =(
How?
Its a lack of industry slots thats stopping us and we have no ability to change it. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14468
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 14:36:00 -
[457] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Strangely enough, nullsec denizens are equally guilty of contributing to the problem they complain about. GǪif by GÇ£nullsec denizensGÇ¥ you mean GÇ£mechanical restrictions outside of player controlGÇ¥, yes. If not, then no, they're not contributing to that problem for the simple reason that they can't. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
89
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Posted - 2013.06.01 15:04:00 -
[458] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪaside from the mechanically enforced costs of doing so; the mechanically enforced limitations on doing it; the mechanically enforced risks in doing it. All of which are factual, numerical, and currently under dev review since it's been proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that it can't be done efficiently.
Rorqual. Your move.
Tippia wrote:Good news: there are ways for other players to stop that from happening. Even better news: the solution to that (non-)issue lies in fixing the underlying problem that makes such a mechanic a necessity.
Cool story, bro.
Tippia wrote:
1.For the first point, it has nothing to do with laziness, greed, or risk aversion GÇö it has to do with making intelligent choices.
2.There is no point in doing industry in null when you can do it in high and have it be better in every way.
3.why fight for something when there's no need to and when you can get it for free?
4.this whole movement to buff null industry is intended to increase the stuff to fight over
5.it would be downright stupid not to make use of mechanics that make industry effortless, free, and incontestable.
6.They already have the best of both worlds.
7.The last three points are just PvP, and complaining about those in a PvP game is pretty nonsensical. You'll soon discover that it's what pretty much everyone wantsGǪ
1.Your choice was to get on this forum and argue that your internet spaceship should not have to fly through internet space in this internet spaceship game. What do you know about intelligent choices?
2.That's what we're advocating changing. Are you caught up, yet?
3.That's what we're advocating changing. Are you caught up, yet?
4.How so?
5.That's what we're advocating changing. Are you caught up, yet?
6.That's what we're advocating changing. Are you caught up, yet, Tippia, my dear?
7.OK, but, wouldn't it be cool if, instead of PVPing by completely avoiding said PVP, we did that PVP by ummmmm . . . PVPing? |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3565
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 15:05:00 -
[459] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Strangely enough, nullsec denizens are equally guilty of contributing to the problem they complain about. Over and over that has been explained unfortunately =(
How? Its a lack of industry slots thats stopping us and we have no ability to change it.
You do so have the ability to change the number of industry slots in nullsec. It's just that POSes are too costly to set up when you have the easy option of just freighting stuff down from Jita. So you choose not to. The economic and social pressures guiding your decision are irrelevant when discussing whether or not nullsec has the ability to do industry.
The economic pressures include the cost of running POSes over using NPC manufacturing slots, the inefficiency of POS refineries, and the risk of losing the POS to enemies (but then that's what "farms and fields" is all about).
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
baltec1
Bat Country
6737
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 15:12:00 -
[460] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:baltec1 wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Strangely enough, nullsec denizens are equally guilty of contributing to the problem they complain about. Over and over that has been explained unfortunately =(
How? Its a lack of industry slots thats stopping us and we have no ability to change it. You do so have the ability to change the number of industry slots in nullsec. It's just that POSes are too costly to set up when you have the easy option of just freighting stuff down from Jita. So you choose not to. The economic and social pressures guiding your decision are irrelevant when discussing whether or not nullsec has the ability to do industry. The economic pressures include the cost of running POSes over using NPC manufacturing slots, the inefficiency of POS refineries, and the risk of losing the POS to enemies (but then that's what "farms and fields" is all about).
So the POS option isnt an option.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3565
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 15:20:00 -
[461] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Tippia wrote:4.this whole movement to buff null industry is intended to increase the stuff to fight over 4.How so?
At present it takes a large force to assault an outpost. If industry is moved to POSes through mechanisms which work equally for everyone (regardless of the space they work in), nullsec denizens will have the option of running industry in POSes GÇö industry which works just as well if not better than hisec, thanks to fuel consumption and manufacturing time bonuses from Planetary Conquest GÇö which provides targets for medium sized fleets to shoot at. They don't even need to blow stuff up, just getting a POS to reinforced will stall the industry taking place at that POS.
So in suggestions I have written up, the aim is to improve the lot of the nullsec industrialist, start choking off the too-easy logistics chain, and get things to the point where taking the risks of doing industry in nullsec is worthwhile in comparison to simply hauling stuff down from Jita. This means both buffing and nerfing null sec, but in ways that are fair and apply equally well to all space.
The short version of my plan is: improve POS industry (all the way from refining to manufacturing) so that it is not suicide-inducing, nerf NPC industry to the point that any sane person in hisec given the choice would do industry in a POS if at all possible (POSsible GǪ see what I did there?), and nerf mineral compression so that nullsec folks would prefer to tear their eyes out rather than haul the materials for supercapitals to nullsec from Jita. Because given the choice between running POSes and doing industry in nullsec versus hauling stuff down from Jita at a 30% penalty, many nullseccers would prefer to pay the 30% penalty.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3565
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 15:23:00 -
[462] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:So the POS option isnt an option.
Don't be silly. It is an option. You just don't choose it.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
383
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 15:25:00 -
[463] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Adeh Gamalar wrote:Gustaf Heleneto wrote: "But 0.0ers can build the stuff they need!"
Not really. This might be interesting for you...Find out how many ships are destroyed in nullsec on a daily/weekly/monthly basis or whatever...Then look at the total manufacturing capabilities of nullsec and ask yourself if nullsec can be self-sustaining? It can't.
I hear this a lot but the conversation always seems to be about outpost build slots. A single large tower can spit out a huge number of ships every week and there are lots of moons in null. Why not just manufacture at a POS? Because using POS is (1) Horrible horrible horrible and that's not going to change any time soon (2) Expensive, and that's going to change to even more expensive soon (3) Even more risky than operating in a conquerable station If you want nullsec manufacturing to operate out of POS, then hi-sec manufacturing would have to be nerfed with atomic napalm to be balanced with it. I prefer a solution that is less punitive to either. 0.0 Outposts exist. Why shouldn't they be at least upgradeable to match the good hi-sec stations?
If it's just a matter of isk as to why you "can't" use a pos to manufacture.... then why bother with highsec? Again it comes back to the JF/power projection element (that we drummed to death in that threadnaugh months ago).
It would also shift the sov map which is going to be shifted anyways come odyssey.
I'm all for buffing nullsec, we need it badly, but I do not think that what you are proposing is to buff null to compete with highsec, but you want highsec to be nerfed to nullsec's level.
When you beat a dog for shitting on your floor, it's only going to become mean for being hit.
The problem will still exist that nullsec denizens contribute to highsec ongoing success, and will continue to do so even if it is nerfed. Because highsec will not be less industrial than nullsec. Ever. More people reside in highsec than nullsec. JF and jump capabilities still exist, and will continue to be used.
The problem resides with nullsec and its' players, not highsec.
You witch hunt a bit too much on that topic.
"I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Sir Marksalot
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
496
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 15:27:00 -
[464] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:baltec1 wrote:So the POS option isnt an option. Don't be silly. It is an option. You just don't choose it.
I have the option to hit my ***** with a 5lb hammer.
I choose not to. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14470
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 15:28:00 -
[465] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:baltec1 wrote:So the POS option isnt an option. Don't be silly. It is an option. You just don't choose it. It's not an option because it doesn't nearly offer the efficiency of highsec NPC stations. And no, it's not just a matter of setup and runing costs, but of the actual industry part of the problem. If it was just a matter of cost, it could be counterbalanced by various discounts, but that's only a small part of the problem. Moreover, if POSes were an option, the use would simply move from highsec NPC stations to highsec POSes.
Short of making nullsec POSes (and only nullsec POSes) work exactly he same as outposts, they are not a solution. The problem is that doing so is meaningless: we already have that, they're called outposts, and they don't work. So fixing that part is a far better solution than replacing it with the exact same thing, only better.
Murk Paradox wrote:I'm all for buffing nullsec, we need it badly, but I do not think that what you are proposing is to buff null to compete with highsec, but you want highsec to be nerfed to nullsec's level. No. What we want is highsec to be nerfed so that there is a margin of efficiency within which low and null industry can be better. Until such a margin exists, no reasonable buffs to null will have any effect since it will always be worse doing your industry there. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
383
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 15:33:00 -
[466] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Adeh Gamalar wrote:[ That's not an argument for keeping easy logistics to high-sec, though. Quite the opposite. What you are identifying is a consequence of those easy logistics. I agree with you that it would be silly to build in null when it is so easy to build in high and ship it to null but what that tells us is that it is the easy logistics that are undermining the point of building in null. It doesn't tell us that null couldn't be self-sufficient if the pipeline was cut off. This is why I tell people to consider human nature. You are looking at the issue backwards. Changing the logistics doesn't make null industry any less crappy or risky. Nerf logistics and people can STILL wipe you null POS industry out, leaving you with only that which you can do in stations, which themselves are at least conquerable if not destroyable. End result is few to no people building stuff in null in any volume (as it is now) AND the industrialists in high sec have no way to access the null market that everyone is living off of now. Consequences of that could include less pvp in null as it becomes too expensive and what pvp is down is with less expensive ships. You'd literally through a giant monkey wrench into the EVE economy and have the exact opposite effect of what you want to. It just doesn't work. The currently too easy/safe logistics and power projection in EVE is (again) a necessary Evil that at least keeps the wheels of the economy churning (ie null sec pvp groups can at least still throw ships at each other). It CAN be changed, but the wrong changes to a delicate and complex system influence by human nature could mean absolute disaster.
Sounds like you're making it a choice then. Null can do what it says it wants to at the risk of combat and losing their assets while not having to JF and move back and forth worrying about highsec , OR they can have their JF capabilities and suffer highsec industry for their lack of risk and be lazy.
So it would seem logistics and highsec industry are indeed linked.
Yay power projection capabilities for being their "necessary evil". Sounds like highsec got meta'd into a necessary evil as a byproduct of being able to jump back and forth in a moment's notice.
But clearly it's not the JF's fault it can make those trips so easily. Surely not. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
383
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 15:34:00 -
[467] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Gustaf Heleneto wrote: And the same was true BEFORE jump capable ships. But people STILL manufacture in high and shipped to null. Another obstacle for pos manufacturing is organizational. Roles are a mess and there really isn't a good way to allow people to manufacture in POSes without adding risk of corporate theft. Add to that the hassle of transporting materials from your home station to refine at the refinery 3 jumps away and then back to the POS for manufacturing, when a single station in high sec can do it all and more...on top of the fact that you have to keep it secure and refuel constantly. A large POS costs 400millons every month to fuel. You can manufacturer he same amount of stuff a large pos pumps out at a high sec station for line fees and jump fuel and you won't spend 400mil a month. It's just the smart choice right now. Less risk, less hassle, higher efficiency.
+1 The underlined is the clearest indication that jump capability didn't cause the problem. It did amplify it in ways, but it wasn't the cause. You don't cure a patient by treating his symptoms. I learned that from watching House (lol). The rest of this post illustrates the intertwined/entangled mess the situation is. Yea, it all sounds very easy to say "just nerf logistics/power projection and the problem is solved" but that's just not true, simple fixes don't fix complex problems. I know some people wish they could, but it just doesn't work that way.
This is true, but the first step to fixing a wound is to clean it first. Complex problems take 1 fix at a time. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3565
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 15:34:00 -
[468] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Moreover, if POSes were an option, the use would simply move from highsec NPC stations to highsec POSes.
You need to move the emphasis from "were" to the word that you skipped out between "an" and "option". By naming the beast you have power over it. Don't let it skulk around unnamed and unspoken.
So why don't outposts work for industry in nullsec?
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
383
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 15:36:00 -
[469] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Adeh Gamalar wrote:Malcanis wrote:Adeh Gamalar wrote:Gustaf Heleneto wrote: "But 0.0ers can build the stuff they need!"
Not really. This might be interesting for you...Find out how many ships are destroyed in nullsec on a daily/weekly/monthly basis or whatever...Then look at the total manufacturing capabilities of nullsec and ask yourself if nullsec can be self-sustaining? It can't.
I hear this a lot but the conversation always seems to be about outpost build slots. A single large tower can spit out a huge number of ships every week and there are lots of moons in null. Why not just manufacture at a POS? Because using POS is (1) Horrible horrible horrible and that's not going to change any time soon (2) Expensive, and that's going to change to even more expensive soon (3) Even more risky than operating in a conquerable station If you want nullsec manufacturing to operate out of POS, then hi-sec manufacturing would have to be nerfed with atomic napalm to be balanced with it. I prefer a solution that is less punitive to either. 0.0 Outposts exist. Why shouldn't they be at least upgradeable to match the good hi-sec stations? Sure, upgrade the outposts - there is no good reason not to. But don't claim that null can't support itself when what you mean is that it actually can but nullsec players are just a little too lazy to deal with CCP's horrible POS mechanics. And let's face it, your points 2 and 3 are not very compelling. The risk is absolutely minimal unless you throw POSes up on the front lines of a conflict and the cost is entirely trivial if a POS is being used efficiently at its full capacity. It's a ridiculous 'solution'. OK I'll change the line to "Nullsec can't support itself with products that would have a TPC of less than 2 or 3 times what they cost in hi-sec". If you think it's likely that players - you know, the average grunts who don't have 10 personal R64s and a Titan collection - will stay in a nullsec where they're forced to buy battleship hulls at 600 mill a pop when their income is barely higher than it would be in hi-sec, then I'd be delighted to hear your explaination of why you think that is. Let's reverse the situation: suppose I take a proposal to CCP that all production and research slots be removed from NPC stations. After all, it's possible for people in empire to build what they need in POS, right? Would you call people objecting to the change "lazy" as well?
So, with the problems you outlined here... what IF a jump freighter was removed from the game? If you did not have the ability to move product so easily from highsec to null and back? Do you think logistics would still carry on, or do you think you would hear a larger roar for fixing manufacturing pos's?
In short, do you think it's a better platform to assault the problem of null, or to shift blame to highsec? Remove the ability for null to use highsec so easily and chances are, you will have a better footing to improve null. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3565
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 15:38:00 -
[470] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:This is true, but the first step to fixing a wound is to clean it first. Complex problems take 1 fix at a time.
And to stretch the analogy further, you don't start cleaning the wound until you've ensured that what caused the wound to the victim isn't going to wound you too!
Remember, everyone goes to Jita because everyone can go to Jita. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
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Sir Marksalot
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
496
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Posted - 2013.06.01 15:41:00 -
[471] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Tippia wrote:Moreover, if POSes were an option, the use would simply move from highsec NPC stations to highsec POSes. You need to move the emphasis from "were" to the word that you skipped out between "an" and "option". By naming the beast you have power over it. Don't let it skulk around unnamed and unspoken. So why don't outposts work for industry in nullsec?
Inefficient refineries and a lack of slots. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14470
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 15:41:00 -
[472] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:But clearly it's not the JF's fault it can make those trips so easily. Surely not. Not really, no. JFs are a solution, not a problem.
Quote:This is true, but the first step to fixing a wound is to clean it first. Complex problems take 1 fix at a time. GǪand until the problem is fixed, the current solutions (such as JFs) need to remain in place.
Mara Rinn wrote:You need to move the emphasis from "were" to the word that you skipped out between "an" and "option". So no change to the sentence is needed then. Goodie.
Quote:So why don't outposts work for industry in nullsec? Availability, logistics, efficiency, cost, safety, protection, labour. In every category, NPC stations (especially in highsec) offer more for free. That's why the fix has two parts to it: one is to remove the free ride hghsec offers; the other is to offer a comparable ride in low/null at a discount compared to those new, higher costs of high. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Sir Marksalot
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
496
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 15:43:00 -
[473] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:
So, with the problems you outlined here... what IF a jump freighter was removed from the game? If you did not have the ability to move product so easily from highsec to null and back? Do you think logistics would still carry on, or do you think you would hear a larger roar for fixing manufacturing pos's?
In short, do you think it's a better platform to assault the problem of null, or to shift blame to highsec? Remove the ability for null to use highsec so easily and chances are, you will have a better footing to improve null.
So, your solution to improve null is to make it an incredibly tedious pain in the ass to do anything there by removing JFs? |
EI Digin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
643
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 15:48:00 -
[474] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:So, with the problems you outlined here... what IF a jump freighter was removed from the game? If you did not have the ability to move product so easily from highsec to null and back? Do you think logistics would still carry on, or do you think you would hear a larger roar for fixing manufacturing pos's?
Most people would pack up and move to where most resources are easy to obtain.
I don't think the objective of this game is to be the group who can have the biggest HED/EC-/N-RAEL camp.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3565
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 15:48:00 -
[475] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Quote:So why don't outposts work for industry in nullsec? Availability, logistics, efficiency, cost, safety, protection, labour. In every category, NPC stations (especially in highsec) offer more for free. That's why the fix has two parts to it: one is to remove the free ride hghsec offers; the other is to offer a comparable ride in low/null at a discount compared to those new, higher costs of high.
So you don't believe that pushing hisec industry from NPC facilities to POSes would be a step towards the goal of making nullsec industry more viable?
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3565
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 15:50:00 -
[476] - Quote
Sir Marksalot wrote:So, your solution to improve null is to make it an incredibly tedious pain in the ass to do anything there by removing JFs?
As one facet of a possible strategy, making it an incredibly tedious pain to move anything anywhere will benefit everyone!
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14470
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 15:52:00 -
[477] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:So you don't believe that pushing hisec industry from NPC facilities to POSes would be a step towards the goal of making nullsec industry more viable? No. Just more tedious and horrible for everyone unless POSes were like stations, in which case, why not just fix the stations?
Moving highsec industry to POSes would just mean that the (supposedly) nullsec industry is done in highsec POSes rather than highsec stations due to the numerous other benefits highsec industry has. No matter what other solution you choose, those benefits need to be compensated for. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
383
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 17:01:00 -
[478] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Adeh Gamalar wrote: Here's the thing - comparisons to highsec prices are meaningless in a context where null is a self-sufficient holistic system. So, why would a battleship hull cost 600mil if built in null? Certainly not due to the additional costs that come from operating a POS. I can't quite remember how many BS arrays one can have at a single large tower but if memory serves it is either three or four, each of which can pump out, what, seven? eight? battleships a day. Worst case, that's 21 BS per tower per day, or 630 per month. The cost of building at a POS is going to add less than 1mil to each of those hulls.
What about the "cost" of the thousands of actual human beings who have to sit at keyboards at times they don't want to to defend such POSes? What happens when that groups numbers dwindle to nothing because being FORCED to play a video game isn't fun? The pos gets killed and all that invested capital is gone with it. OR Build in high sec in perfect safety and very cheaply and move it to null with easy logistics. OR (if easy logistics gets nerfed) Just stay out of null sec, putter around in low sec or do FW, or say screw EVe altogether. Like I said, you don't consider actual human nature when posting your opinions. This is a video game and now on is going to do as you suggest, people are hard pressed to do inconvenient/dangerous/tedious things in real life, why would they do it in a video game?
WTF.
PLAY THIS GAME OR ELSE DAMMIT
"I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
383
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 17:03:00 -
[479] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Adeh Gamalar wrote:Malcanis wrote:"Those guys flying the 10 DPS cruiser B should just fight harder. If they whine for CCP to make their cruiser have 295 DPS like Cruiser A, they're just being lazy because they don't want to deal with a 97% disadvantage. I can see why they''d want CCP to increase their damage by 2900% but the fact is that if enough of them got together and worked really hard they could spend 30 man hours to do something that a single guy flying Cruiser B could do in 1"
Convincing? Not really a useful representation of my claims so I'll pass on commenting on it. It still treats things as a competition between high and null where I'm suggesting that the two should have their economies effectively decoupled. So why should people living in 0.0 be the ones to have the inefficient and inadequate production capability? Surely it's the lazy people living in NPC space, who don't fight for the space, who don't pay for the stations, who dont have to import their high bulk low ends, who also get mission agents, R&D agents, CONCORD deterring aggression 24/7 for free... why should they also get production facilities that grossly overpower those available in 0.0 To put it another way: why should it take a hi sec player x hours of ISK making to pay for a batleship and 2x or 3x hours for a 0.0 player to do the same? Because that's what you're advocating, and you haven't even given a reason why this should be apart from "0.0 players are lazy for wanting the same potential as hi-sec". Why do you want 0.0 existence to be so gimped compared to hi-sec?
Because null is about player created things. Highsec is about it being handed to you.
So.... create. Go on. Get to it. Chop chop.
YOU (null resident) wanted to "carve out your own empire and be the master of your domain". Guess it's up to "you" to do it. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
383
|
Posted - 2013.06.01 17:10:00 -
[480] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Adeh Gamalar wrote:
So, why would the hull price be higher? Mineral costs are what you're thinking of, I guess. But if the costs are going to be that much higher because the mins are mined in null then the income from mining in null will also rise proportionately, and won't stay the same as it is in high-sec...
Nullsec is shockingly deficient in low-end minerals. Obviously you're unaware of this, but even after the high-end ore buff planned in odyssey, there isn't going to be nearly enough trit and pyer and especially not enough mexallon in 0.0 anoms. Really I think you need to educate yourself on what the actual problems of 0.0 manufacturing are before you make any more suggestions about it.
People should loot their wrecks. I am able to get the minerals to build 1 BS and 5 cruisers from just looting BS sized wrecks, ignoring the cruiser and frig wrecks.
And I have dealing with wrecks.
Takes roughly.... oooohhh I think 5 belts worth for 1 maller's worth of minerals. So assume 10 bs wrecks for 1 cruiser.
Anyone, raise your hand if you rat in a carrier or do only sites to rat for isk? That's ALOT of minerals right there. Not a solution to be sure, but can definitely offset the cost of those t1 hull minerals that you NEED to import in... "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
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