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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 53 post(s) |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
224
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Posted - 2013.06.03 20:38:00 -
[511] - Quote
Exactly. Mostly though, they disappear too soon. There's not really enough time to check through what all the cans are before they start disappearing, and once they start doing that it's basically too late. |
Kahns
Ixion Defence Systems Test Alliance Please Ignore
8
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Posted - 2013.06.03 20:55:00 -
[512] - Quote
Naomi Hale wrote:I am now sure of my earlier assumption ( here). We are hacking/overriding airlocks and access ports. This makes the entire system far more enjoyable and realistic to me now. Removing the jettison mechanic would remove the feel of the derelict's contents being blown out into space.
I don't disagree- in fact, you can see airlocks on the sides of the buildings in data sites that we hack. This to me is actually a very cool part about the new system. If people are complaining about the actual concept of loot shooting into space, I'm with you on this one. It seems fun and interesting.
I don't have a background in user interface or anything, so I am more than likely completely full of it. But I realized recently that I've never really explained why I keep saying I think the mechanic itself is inconsistent, so I'm going to take a stab. If I made sense before or you don't care, I encourage you to ignore this post :)
Obviously all UI's have metaphors that they use. You don't actually shoot a ship's guns, you hit F1, etc. etc. With a game as complicated and deep as Eve Online, the metaphors have to be pretty sweeping and consistent or the game becomes harder to learn. Eve Online's UI is closer to an OS than a game, something that I think is pretty cool.
My concern is that NORMALLY when you click on something in 3D space, the overview, the inventory, etc. in Eve, you select it. You can then apply actions to it or whatever, but single clicking is afaik always a selection. So, the proper way to tractor something in Eve's UI metaphor would be to click on it, click on a module that tractors, and there you go. We have this functionality already... it's called tractor beam.
With this update, we now have a portion of the game (exploration) where single clicking both selects and does an action. Plus, it does the same thing that is already used somewhere else in the game, tractor beams. If you were going to make an exception to the OS style selection when you click rule, I just wish it was made so that all tractor beams worked the same way.
So you ask, does this REALLY matter? Probably not. As I tried to make clear before, chasing cans without direct control of your ship, the size of the cans, loot balance, etc. are way way more important to me. Operating system UI's are littered with inconsistencies and we seem to learn them just fine. But does it seem like a good UI design choice? Nah.
Again, I'm genuinely excited about the new mechanic and I think it's come a long way in the short time we've had to play with it. So don't get me wrong. I actually think that additional UI/sound feedback on what is being tractored and the ability to cancel it are the most important outstanding issues with exploration.
Anyway, it's been fun talking with all of you on here about these new features. See you in space o/ |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
225
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 21:43:00 -
[513] - Quote
I sincerely hope most of TQ is as welcoming and enthusiastic about this as you and Naomi are.
In the meantime, I'll be stocking up on canned meat just in case they start shooting the station in Dodixie for lack of a statue. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
573
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 21:46:00 -
[514] - Quote
Sheena Tzash wrote: You wouldn't see someone hack into a bank and set it up so that all the money inside the bank vault would be blasted into the sky - yeah its done the job of getting the loot but its in such an ineffective method and most likely means that you lose a good amount of the loot you've worked hard to get.
for what I've seen its different than that - you're rather digging in a trash bin hoping for a half of a hamburger someone dumped there under all the waste, or you go the easy mode and scan the cans, because all stuff whats not a tower or other POS module BPC is basically worthless sh*t, which is btw. one thing what bothers me most - the first explorer arriving at a fresh spawned site checks all cans and moves on if there is nothing of value, for all his successors probing down and doing the same thing (scanning cans) is basically a pure waste of time, over and over till the site despawns or some noob really hacks everything inside causing the site to despawn. Big flaws I see with this new concept (of scannable cans especially). |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
225
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Posted - 2013.06.03 21:54:00 -
[515] - Quote
Cans detonate when you leave the site. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
573
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 21:58:00 -
[516] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Cans detonate when you leave the site.
im pretty sure they dont. I tried 1 hour ago hacking with a gila, then docked, switched to a helios and went back to bookmark, the cans and half done site was still there. |
Lyra Gerie
Bareback Pornstars Carthage Empires
0
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Posted - 2013.06.03 21:58:00 -
[517] - Quote
Possible suggestion Perhaps you could make it so that the better the hack the slower the cans go and/or the longer they last? Perhaps allow a standard loot drop (as in it stays put and has more then 1 set of items in it) for say, never failing a hack in the site, or allow for more cans to jettison, or some things along those lines.
Don't just encourage us to bring a friend, encourage players to do a better job based on skill.
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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
985
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 22:31:00 -
[518] - Quote
One thing i just don't get is why does my ship suddenly have a tractor beam that only works for this? BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
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Mmkay
Northern Flemish Bastards Inc Yulai Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.06.03 22:52:00 -
[519] - Quote
I'm hoping CCP surprises us all... Tomorrow Odyssey will be released and everyone will discover that the can spew mechanic is actually the result of a failed hack while successful hacks present the player with all the loot. The current can spew on Sisi has actually been CCP testing the failure mechanic since there wouldn't have been enough data to analyze it as thoroughly if it had been limited to failed hacks only. Presenting a player with loot after a successful hack is not a difficult/new game mechanic which can be implemented on TQ without testing. Everyone is happy and many of the critics are pleasantly surprised by CCP's clever marketing trick. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
573
|
Posted - 2013.06.03 23:08:00 -
[520] - Quote
so, NPC are removed from relic sites?
"This gate is locked! There are synchronized gate scramblers on all hostile entities in this deadspace pocket. Unless you are physically inside one of them to unscramble the signal, you must simply clear the vicinity of enemy ships. So grab your guns."
3 NPC BS waiting to be killed in a "Forgotten Ruins" Site.
then this in "Digital Complex" Data Site |
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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
225
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Posted - 2013.06.03 23:45:00 -
[521] - Quote
Canned meat.
You should all stock up on it and find a secure place to weather the storm. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
573
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 01:00:00 -
[522] - Quote
What I've learned about cargo scanner is that scanning cans is totally pointless because its unreliable.
The cans may contain items which dont appear on scan, or dont contain items which are displayed in scan - basically after the scan you know exactly the same as before what loot is possible and what is not, you could simply omit that without loosing any information. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1547
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 01:11:00 -
[523] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:What I've learned about cargo scanner is that scanning cans is totally pointless because its unreliable.
The cans may contain items which dont appear on scan, or dont contain items which are displayed in scan - basically after the scan you know exactly the same as before what loot is possible and what is not, you could simply omit that without loosing any information.
I've had the exact opposite result. Every time I've scanned a can I've been able to cherry pick whatever comes up on scan(Decryptors, BPCs, Data Cores) and when I grab cans that aren't shown on the result all I get is NPC junk. CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE-á/ Dynamic New Eden |
Telrei
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 01:22:00 -
[524] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:so, NPC are removed from relic sites? "This gate is locked! There are synchronized gate scramblers on all hostile entities in this deadspace pocket. Unless you are physically inside one of them to unscramble the signal, you must simply clear the vicinity of enemy ships. So grab your guns." 3 NPC BS waiting to be killed in a "Forgotten Ruins" Site. then this in "Digital Complex" Data Site
Oh please god yes.......
Please tell me that you replaced can spew on success and instead actually gave us a valid reason to either have a fleet up or an expensive ship/high skill sp char.
I fully approve.... and as I said this forces fleets for hacking/Arch in a EvE way not in a we're going to force teamplay through a new gimmick even on success..... |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
225
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 01:40:00 -
[525] - Quote
Sorry to inform you, Telrei.
Those sites are not actually Data/Relic sites. They're Combat sites that were mis-categorized because of their names. |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
81
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 01:46:00 -
[526] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:What I've learned about cargo scanner is that scanning cans is totally pointless because its unreliable.
The cans may contain items which dont appear on scan, or dont contain items which are displayed in scan - basically after the scan you know exactly the same as before what loot is possible and what is not, you could simply omit that without loosing any information.
No, the cargo scan has been reliable to me. Only the random crap doesn't show up. The goodies do. Only which cans exactly to scoop isn't entirely clear to me yet. But other players will have figured that out in no time once the spew hit TQ. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1547
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 01:52:00 -
[527] - Quote
Datacores and Decrypters=Parts Container BPCs and skillbooks=Data
Relic sites I really haven't payed much attention to as of yet. CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE-á/ Dynamic New Eden |
Johan Toralen
Clockwork X3
81
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 01:57:00 -
[528] - Quote
I could swear i got some decrytors from data cans. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1547
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 01:59:00 -
[529] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:I could swear i got some decrytors from data cans.
Out of the 8 sites I've ran so far I've been 100% on whats on the scan, using that. I will run some more and focus on data to see, but i've only seen them drop from parts.
CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE-á/ Dynamic New Eden |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5317
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 04:00:00 -
[530] - Quote
Tsubutai wrote:edit 2: in crude ISK/hour terms, that monument site was worth between 600m isk/hr on the low end and 1.4b isk/hr on the high end. Bullshit. There's no way you're making this much. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
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LiKuei
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2013.06.04 04:24:00 -
[531] - Quote
So the new mechanic, which is going to be presented to new players as a valid source of income in-game, and is going to be presented as such requires the following:
Known: 1. A ship they can fit all of the items for exploration (unless you are going to give EVERY new player a Gnosis) 2. Four skill books for encryption (one for each race) 3. Four skill books for items currently in game (Probe launcher, Codebreaker, cargo scanner and Analyzer) 4. Four modules that require skill level 4 to use (CCPs minimum standard for T2 items)
Ok. This is fair if you are going to be presented as a viable primary source of income. Anything less would unbalance it vs the other professions.
Now, the things they have to contend with once they acquire all of this:
Highsec: 1. Competition for a very limited source of income. 2. Will have to roll against a loot table to see what they may or may not get when ... 3. they have to deal with loot spew. Loot spew can be mitigated by ... 4. having a friend sit there and wait for you to either succeed or fail
In Low sec/Null: 5. Players intent on your destruction
While I do not disagree that the risk/reward should be greater for Low/Null, I do disagree with additional hurdles that low SP players are going to have to overcome ... primarily the loot spew. For team play to be profitable, loot generated would have to be ~1.2 as, at a minimum, there would be two people. MOST people who I know/see do exploration do it solo, with profits paying for their upgrades and a reserve for the inevitable destruction of that ship. While the current professions do support group play, it is based on mutual need and benefit ... risks can be mitigated and rewards shared. While the same can be said of team exploration, the profit margin will be drastically reduced as all loot could very well be split 50/50, more as each additional person is added to catch cans, with little to no reward if one turns out to be to not share the same shared mindset.
In the other careers, as you improve skills, ships and modules, the amount an individual can make improves, irregardless if you partner runs with the mission money, the salvage money or the ore ... the current implementation does not allow for it ... you don't get the cans (or your partner runs with the loot), you don't get paid.
Find a new use for the 'loot pinata' (as people are calling it) ... it does not fit well with a career path you are actively encouraging newer players to pursue. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5318
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 04:45:00 -
[532] - Quote
LiKuei wrote:2. Four skill books for encryption (one for each race) The hell are you talking about? What does any of this have to do with decryption?
LiKuei wrote:4. Four modules that require skill level 4 to use (CCPs minimum standard for T2 items) Which modules are you talking about? The T2 data analyzer, T2 relic analyzer, and all the T2 scan arrays require their skill at level 5. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Telrei
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 04:51:00 -
[533] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Sorry to inform you, Telrei.
Those sites are not actually Data/Relic sites. They're Combat sites that were mis-categorized because of their names.
One can dream.... |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1547
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 05:07:00 -
[534] - Quote
LiKuei wrote:So the new mechanic, which is going to be presented to new players as a valid source of income in-game, and is going to be presented as such requires the following:
Known: 1. A ship they can fit all of the items for exploration (unless you are going to give EVERY new player a Gnosis) 2. Four skill books for encryption (one for each race) 3. Four skill books for items currently in game (Probe launcher, Codebreaker, cargo scanner and Analyzer) 4. Four modules that require skill level 4 to use (CCPs minimum standard for T2 items)
Ok. This is fair if you are going to be presented as a viable primary source of income. Anything less would unbalance it vs the other professions.
Now, the things they have to contend with once they acquire all of this:
Highsec: 1. Competition for a very limited source of income. 2. Will have to roll against a loot table to see what they may or may not get when ... 3. they have to deal with loot spew. Loot spew can be mitigated by ... 4. having a friend sit there and wait for you to either succeed or fail
In Low sec/Null: 5. Players intent on your destruction
While I do not disagree that the risk/reward should be greater for Low/Null, I do disagree with additional hurdles that low SP players are going to have to overcome ... primarily the loot spew. For team play to be profitable, loot generated would have to be ~1.2 as, at a minimum, there would be two people. MOST people who I know/see do exploration do it solo, with profits paying for their upgrades and a reserve for the inevitable destruction of that ship. While the current professions do support group play, it is based on mutual need and benefit ... risks can be mitigated and rewards shared. While the same can be said of team exploration, the profit margin will be drastically reduced as all loot could very well be split 50/50, more as each additional person is added to catch cans, with little to no reward if one turns out to be to not share the same shared mindset.
In the other careers, as you improve skills, ships and modules, the amount an individual can make improves, irregardless if you partner runs with the mission money, the salvage money or the ore ... the current implementation does not allow for it ... you don't get the cans (or your partner runs with the loot), you don't get paid.
Find a new use for the 'loot pinata' (as people are calling it) ... it does not fit well with a career path you are actively encouraging newer players to pursue.
The new probing mods require L3 for T1 and L5 for T2 of their respected skills(Astro Acuisition, Pinpointing, Rangefinding).
Relic/Data analyzers aren't new they are just renamed Codebreaker and Analyzer, skills are the same for T1 and T2.
Also interesting enough Virus bonus is capped at 40. So putting on mods or using ships that put your virus str past 40 is pointless, as I don't believe it increases your overall HP.
I do agree that Exploration is lacking as a progressive profession, pretty much you are better off just stopping at a Cov-Ops and L4 astro skills, and not even look towards a all-in-one ship or a T3 as the final progression(unless you plan on doing WHs)..
CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE-á/ Dynamic New Eden |
Tsubutai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
209
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 05:47:00 -
[535] - Quote
Johan Toralen wrote:Tsubutai wrote:edit 2: in crude ISK/hour terms, that monument site was worth between 600m isk/hr on the low end and 1.4b isk/hr on the high end. That's a strange way to look at isk/h. When i station trade and make a billion profit on some item does that mean my isk/h is around 60b? I would be really really surprised if i play for 4 hours on tuesday night and come back with 2-6 billion. Pretty unrealistic unless i luck into a pos bpc. I specifically said it was a crude measure; the point is that the high end 0.0 hacking sites are now quite lucrative, to the point that they are at least competitive with the high end combat sites. As such, they should require a similar investment to run, and farming them should entail similar levels of risk. You'd be lucky to get multiple billions for your two hours given that there will be a few minutes of moving from system to system and probing in between running sites, but I'd be surprised if you didn't get a few hundred million assuming you have appropriate skills, are reasonably good at the hacking minigame, and are in blue space or a quiet backwater.
Quote:Do you feel a assault frigate should be able to compete with that Machariel on the same or at a better level? Neither is good. Being able to farm high end or very lucrative content in cheap throwaway ships such as covops or the T1 exploration frigates just devalues the content (see FW plexing and missioning), but the same is true for farming in more expensive ships if they're essentially immune to the intervention of hostile players. I'm fine with tech 3s having a bonus to virus strength, but I think that bonus and the nullifier/cloak subs should be mutually exclusive, for exactly the same reason that tech 3s fit for running combat sites can be ganky or cloaky/nullified, but not both at once.
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Tsubutai wrote:edit 2: in crude ISK/hour terms, that monument site was worth between 600m isk/hr on the low end and 1.4b isk/hr on the high end. Bullshit. There's no way you're making this much. As I said to Johan above, I was using the crudest possible measure - ISK value of loot gained divided by time taken to do the site. My point wasn't "you will make billions per hour", it was "the value of these sites is now comparable to that of other high end pve content, and as such, you should not be able to farm it in ships that are either so cheap as to be completely disposable to almost any established player or in ships that are cloaky, nullified, and multiply-stabbed." |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
573
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 07:52:00 -
[536] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote: I've had the exact opposite result. Every time I've scanned a can I've been able to cherry pick whatever comes up on scan(Decryptors, BPCs, Data Cores) and when I grab cans that aren't shown on the result all I get is NPC junk.
well, it did definitely happen for me, stuff popped out which hasnt been on scan, so who says it couldnt be a tower BPC surprisingly spew out despite scan displayed otherwise?? Why to scan at all if you would hack all cans anyways disregarding scan result?? |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1547
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 08:30:00 -
[537] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote: I've had the exact opposite result. Every time I've scanned a can I've been able to cherry pick whatever comes up on scan(Decryptors, BPCs, Data Cores) and when I grab cans that aren't shown on the result all I get is NPC junk.
well, it did definitely happen for me, stuff popped out which hasnt been on scan, so who can certainly tell if tower BPC dont surprisingly pop out despite scan displayed otherwise too?? Why to scan at all if you would hack all cans anyways disregarding scan result??
They changed the spew mechanics so it is almost impossible now to get all of them solo. So cherry picking is the best option.
CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE-á/ Dynamic New Eden |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
573
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 08:43:00 -
[538] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Robert Caldera wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote: I've had the exact opposite result. Every time I've scanned a can I've been able to cherry pick whatever comes up on scan(Decryptors, BPCs, Data Cores) and when I grab cans that aren't shown on the result all I get is NPC junk.
well, it did definitely happen for me, stuff popped out which hasnt been on scan, so who can certainly tell if tower BPC dont surprisingly pop out despite scan displayed otherwise too?? Why to scan at all if you would hack all cans anyways disregarding scan result?? They changed the spew mechanics so it is almost impossible now to get all of them solo. So cherry picking is the best option.
How is this related to my concern? I know I need an alt to get all lootz. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1547
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 08:52:00 -
[539] - Quote
What wasn't on scan that you got? CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE-á/ Dynamic New Eden |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
573
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 09:03:00 -
[540] - Quote
Dunno im not at home now will check recorded clips later |
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