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Six Six Six
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
116
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 14:37:00 -
[91] - Quote
Danni stark wrote:i don't think it is an indication of where the game is going, i think it was just a good idea to remove the whole "pick very important things before you know anything about the game since you haven't even been put through the tutorial yet" and replace it with "you can pick whatever attributes you want, but you're stuck with them for 12 months" thing.
Exactly, plus then we didn't have remaps. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3443
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 14:45:00 -
[92] - Quote
Tippia wrote:It removes the point of having attributes. It removes attribute implants from the game.
You say that like removing attributes would be a bad thing. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Lost True
Paradise project
2328
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 14:49:00 -
[93] - Quote
Danni stark wrote:Lost True wrote:Attributes and bloodlines WERE important. Long time ago. Now the bloodlines and all this stuf doesn't matter, the initial set of attributes doesn't matter, learning skills were removed. It's obvious where this is going - no attributes at all, and implants. It's just a matter of time, there will be too much whine if it'll happen too quick. As for an idea an how it's affects me... I'll say it straight: 99.999% of you will be miserable when i'll respec/remap to the skills like leadership and trade. Which i can't train efficiently now, because i'm now keep 2700 per hour and don't give a damn because i've stopped playing 2 years ago. Ppl like me is why you shouldn't want something like plex for remap or respec. i don't think it is an indication of where the game is going, i think it was just a good idea to remove the whole "pick very important things before you know anything about the game since you haven't even been put through the tutorial yet" and replace it with "you can pick whatever attributes you want, but you're stuck with them for 12 months" thing. sure, other game's races give unique bonuses but usually nothing that forces you to pick one over another or be forever on the back foot. if you're not playing, you're not training skills and that means we largely don't care what skills you do or don't have, or how fast you train them. Yes, it's was wrong that you were forced to choose you attributes while you don't know anything about the game. I have a bad ones on my first Deteis and then created Khanid and Achura... And they're both 2m behind anyway :)
But it this was the only problem, then why not to allow to remap(and even change a bloodline) as many times as newbies want before they reach 2m sp.
I'm not playing, but it's doesn't mean that i'm not subscribed and not changing skills. The order of skills is really doesn't matter, just the training speed. And many of the old ones playing the same way. And the training is the main reason to pay for the game. How else they can still be around for 6-10 years. It's insane, what to do here for such a long time? :) in 2007 i've thought it's a sci-fi simulator, not an "e-sports" game. I'm not a teenager, how would i like it much? Played for 2 months, and tired of the same space again... [url]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2195542#post2195542[/url] |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3443
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 14:52:00 -
[94] - Quote
John Ratcliffe wrote:Rebecha Pucontis wrote:You do realise goons would probably be the biggest beneficieries of a skill respec more than anyone? And even they are telling you it would be a bad idea. You do realise that's bollocks? Everyone would benefit. Everyone. CCP just need to do it. I just don't get the resistance. If you don't want to use the ability to respec then don't use it. Simples.
If you could remap or respec at whim by handing over ISK, who benefits the most? The people with the ISK. Who has the largest ISK supply in the game? Goonswarm.
If you could remap or respec at whim without any consumables, who benefits the most? The people who have a clear plan for their future and have the nouse to figure out which respec or remap will be most beneficial to them for achieving that plan. Who has access to the best, brightest, human calculators in the game? Goonswarm.
Even if it's not Goonswarm that has access to more ISK and better analysts than you, it will be someone else like them: a large group of people who are prepared to pool resources to achieve a common goal. You will never gain as much advantage of game mechanics features as large organised alliances who can industrialise the exploitation of that mechanic.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Akiyo Mayaki
198
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 14:53:00 -
[95] - Quote
I like to believe that these posts are not genuine. No |
Six Six Six
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
116
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 14:53:00 -
[96] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Tippia wrote:It removes the point of having attributes. It removes attribute implants from the game. You say that like removing attributes would be a bad thing.
If you remove attributes then skill training will become all the same based on level and rank. EVE is a character building game amongst other things without attributes the character building part would be fairly pointless. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14370
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 14:57:00 -
[97] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Tippia wrote:It removes the point of having attributes. It removes attribute implants from the game. You say that like removing attributes would be a bad thing. The implants could go without much issue, but the attributes themselves serve a good purpose as far as specialisation, focus, and planning go.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3444
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 15:07:00 -
[98] - Quote
My partner has been doing quite fine on a flat attribute spread with a couple of cheap implants. Specialisation is achieved by training various skills. Attributes and neural remaps add needless complexity to the character development system. Sure, you get to spend hours performing the intellectual onanism of playing with EVEMon remap plans, but it's not like two people training a character to get into a command ship are really going to take different training paths.
There is some strategic advantage to one remap for 12 months on per/wil, then 12 months on int/mem, but then you get into the mindset that "my character is unplayable for two years" because you've shoved all your engineering skills into one year while all your ship flying skills are in a different year.
Then 18 months into your 24 months training pan, CCP changes something about the ships you were aiming to fly (such as skill requirement, or hull bonuses) and you get mightly upset.
Thus attributes and remaps are actually bad for the game because they encourage minmaxing and the munchkin mindset of "in order to save one week of training time, I must bake this character for two years before I can actually use it, and perish the thought that the game will change in the intervening 24 motnhs."
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Lost True
Paradise project
2328
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 15:15:00 -
[99] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:Tippia wrote:It removes the point of having attributes. It removes attribute implants from the game. You say that like removing attributes would be a bad thing. The implants could go without much issue, but the attributes themselves serve a good purpose as far as specialisation, focus, and planning go. Not anymore. It's now simple, just 2 options: 1. Plan your training with a large packs of skills that will train at the maximum speed. Not very flexible, especially for the new players. 2. Make an average attriibutes, like max PER + INT. And you can train anything with the good speed. Very flexable.
I don't support those ideas. The old bloodline system was fine for me, and learnings too. But what done is done. And it's logical that it'll be finished sooner or later. And i can easily tell that something like that will be in the future. Respec, or no attributes at all. Reading this thread makes me even more sure of that: it's all happens, just very slowly. There were some topics like that in the past. But it looked like a complete nonsense back then and was always trolled and not supported at all. Things change, now you're discussing it. Next thing i'll see is the serious discussion of SP for ratting. in 2007 i've thought it's a sci-fi simulator, not an "e-sports" game. I'm not a teenager, how would i like it much? Played for 2 months, and tired of the same space again... [url]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2195542#post2195542[/url] |
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
368
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 15:17:00 -
[100] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:My partner has been doing quite fine on a flat attribute spread with a couple of cheap implants. Specialisation is achieved by training various skills. Attributes and neural remaps add needless complexity to the character development system. Sure, you get to spend hours performing the intellectual onanism of playing with EVEMon remap plans, but it's not like two people training a character to get into a command ship are really going to take different training paths.
There is some strategic advantage to one remap for 12 months on per/wil, then 12 months on int/mem, but then you get into the mindset that "my character is unplayable for two years" because you've shoved all your engineering skills into one year while all your ship flying skills are in a different year.
Then 18 months into your 24 months training pan, CCP changes something about the ships you were aiming to fly (such as skill requirement, or hull bonuses) and you get mightly upset.
Thus attributes and remaps are actually bad for the game because they encourage minmaxing and the munchkin mindset of "in order to save one week of training time, I must bake this character for two years before I can actually use it, and perish the thought that the game will change in the intervening 24 motnhs."
It doesn't quite work like that. Remapping to Per and Will doesn't preclude you from training Int and Mem based skills. You will still have made a good decision remapping to Per and Will strategically if you spend a portion of the year training Per and Will skills and the rest training Int and Mem or other Attribute based skills. If you feel that you can only train specific skills because of a remap then I have to tell you that your thinking about it all wrong.
Mara Rinn wrote:Attributes and neural remaps add needless complexity to the character development system. There is noting needless about giving people strategic choices. In fact many choices you will face wont get much more meaningful than deciding which skills and in what order to train and which remap to use. That is why people get so upset about it when they make a mistake. Granted optimising skill training will only get you so far which is correct, but for those who have the intellectual and organisational ability they can get a tangible benefit to their performance over other players.
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Six Six Six
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
116
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 15:17:00 -
[101] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:. Attributes and neural remaps add needless complexity to the character development system. Sure, you get to spend hours performing the intellectual onanism of playing with EVEMon remap plans,
I bet your training plan would be a bit different to mine, as I don't use EVEmon. |
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
368
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 15:19:00 -
[102] - Quote
Lost True wrote: Not anymore. It's now simple, just 2 options: 1. Plan your training with a large packs of skills that will train at the maximum speed. Not very flexible, especially for the new players. 2. Make an average attriibutes, like max PER + INT. And you can train anything with the good speed. Very flexable.
Who said that you can't train other skills simply because you are remapped to Per and Will for example? That is just an illusion which people put in their mind which is untrue. You are still gaining SP at a tangible rate even if you have the worst remap and worst implants for the skill your training. |
John Ratcliffe
Sausy Sausages
163
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 15:24:00 -
[103] - Quote
Tippia wrote:OP: Will never happen. They suggested it as their first toe-dip into the rank waters of microtransactions. The vociferous community response against this horrid idea was what made them promise never to do MT, and was the root of the outcry over IncarnaGǪ John Ratcliffe wrote:Well then how does it affect you? It affects me by being a way to pay money to ignore game mechanics. It's inherently bad design. Why should you be allowed to skip parts of the game to begin with, and, worse, why should you be allowed to do so just because you fork over cash? I'd like to be able to pay CCP to be allowed to skip this whole Gǣwarp scramblingGǥ mechanic, but they won't let me do that either for much the same reason. John Ratcliffe wrote:Every other MMO I have played has introduced this at some point. There is no reason not to do so in Eve. GǪaside from it breaking the game in many horrible ways without providing any kind of benefit to counterbalance all that breakage. In fact, let me count them. It removes the point of having skills to begin with. It removes the point of having attributes. It removes attribute implants from the game. It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups. It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character. It removes planning and choice and consequences. It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas. It kills character trading. It massively boosts older characters over new ones. It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do. It will also never happen for the simple reasons that it's a solution to a problem EVE doesn't have, and the only effect of adding skill remaps is to create the very problem it's meant to solve. The reason those other MMOs have introduced such a mechanic is because they have the fundamentally flawed design of only offering limited avenues of development for a single character. EVE solved that problem before it was even released: if you want to do something new, just train it. If you really want skill respecs, don't ask for skill respecs. Just ask for the removal of skills to begin with, because it's the same thing. Conversely, if you really want pay-for-attribute-remaps, don't ask for pay-for-attribute-remaps. Just ask for the removal of attributes, because again, it's much the same thing. This should also give you a hint as to why they're futile things to ask for it.
Plus +ºa change, plus c'est la m+¬me chose |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14371
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 15:27:00 -
[104] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:There is some strategic advantage to one remap for 12 months on per/wil, then 12 months on int/mem, but then you get into the mindset that "my character is unplayable for two years" because you've shoved all your engineering skills into one year while all your ship flying skills are in a different year.
Then 18 months into your 24 months training pan, CCP changes something about the ships you were aiming to fly (such as skill requirement, or hull bonuses) and you get mightly upset. Well, that's forethought and planning for you. Do you want to commit to that single focus for that long, or do you want to spec up for more freedom and being ready for any eventualities? Or do you realise that it won't matter because the adjustments are only going to change by a couple of hours anyway?
Getting the basics done on a flat remap (or, if it's a new character, using those free remaps in full) and then going for the more focused stuff still lets you avoid the uselessness problem. At the same time, it allows your industry character to do just that: only industry (and science), and become useful faster.
Lost True wrote:Not anymore. It's now simple, just 2 options: 1. Plan your training with a large packs of skills that will train at the maximum speed. Not very flexible, especially for the new players. 2. Make an average attriibutes, like max PER + INT. And you can train anything with the good speed. Very flexable. 3. Mix the two, depending on your need, when, and what you want to achieve. 4. Suck it up and train off-respec when needed because it makes very little difference for the occasional skill.
Quote:The old bloodline system was fine for me, and learnings too. But what done is done. And it's logical that it'll be finished sooner or later. And i can easily tell that something like that will be in the future. Respec, or no attributes at all. The learning skills were horrid in every way since it was a pointless meta-mechanic that forced you into one of two equally awful choices: do nothing for long stretches of time, or suffer from appallingly slow skill progression. It served absolutely no useful purpose for the game (not even from the perspective of adding choice since there was none in any meaningful way).
Pay-for-respecs will never happen because it's such a terminally bad design, and attributes offer an interesting puzzle to solve that isn't likely to go away any time soon since it actually offers a meaningful choice.
Quote:Things change, now you're discussing it. It's always been discussed. It's been dismissed for about as long as well. All that's happening is that more players are coming in from other MMOs with preconceptions about how the system does (or should) work than need to be corrected. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Lost True
Paradise project
2328
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 15:30:00 -
[105] - Quote
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:Lost True wrote: Not anymore. It's now simple, just 2 options: 1. Plan your training with a large packs of skills that will train at the maximum speed. Not very flexible, especially for the new players. 2. Make an average attriibutes, like max PER + INT. And you can train anything with the good speed. Very flexable.
Who said that you can't train other skills simply because you are remapped to Per and Will for example? That is just an illusion which people put in their mind which is untrue. You are still gaining SP at a tangible rate even if you have the worst remap and worst implants for the skill your training. Sure. But why to make PER+WIL, if you know that you'll be training some other skills? I think of the builds like PER+WIL or INT+MEM as an endgame sets. When you've trained everything you need for now, and can afford to make 2+ year plans.
Make the more average ones, like PER+WIL. Or use use EVEMon calculator with your plan for even more optimal attributes. in 2007 i've thought it's a sci-fi simulator, not an "e-sports" game. I'm not a teenager, how would i like it much? Played for 2 months, and tired of the same space again... [url]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2195542#post2195542[/url] |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14371
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 15:34:00 -
[106] - Quote
John Ratcliffe wrote:In essence, I disagree. Any particular reason? What with? The list is a matter of fact, not opinion, by the way. The only way for it not to be is if it was limited in such a way that it might as well not be implemented at all.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3444
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 15:36:00 -
[107] - Quote
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:It doesn't quite work like that. Remapping to Per and Will doesn't preclude you from training Int and Mem based skills. You will still have made a good decision remapping to Per and Will strategically if you spend a portion of the year training Per and Will skills and the rest training Int and Mem or other Attribute based skills. If you feel that you can only train specific skills because of a remap then I have to tell you that your thinking about it all wrong.
If you don't spend more than half of a remap year training skills which take advantage of that remap, you've wasted any advantage you might have gained from that remap.
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:In fact many choices you will face wont get much more meaningful than deciding which skills and in what order to train and which remap to use. GǪ Granted optimising skill training will only get you so far which is correct, but for those who have the intellectual and organisational ability they can get a tangible benefit to their performance over other players
The more meaningful choices are the ones you make about who to make friends with, what ships you fly today, and whether you log in or not. The choice of minmaxing on attributes gains you a few more skill points down the road, certainly.
I haven't trained a new skill on this character since January 2012 or so. Am I wasting potential? Not really: I do have the idea of getting into a black ops battleship at some point in time, but my current play style doesn't involve black ops. I can fly most sub-capital ships just fine. The emphasis that some folks place on finishing a 365 day training plan in 358 days is a little bizarre. The fascination that some people have of training to fly ships that they will never use is equally bizarre, as is the complaining that people emit on the forums about the cost of replacing clones which have 100M+ SP, most of which they never actually use!
Why wouldn't you have trained three characters to 30M SP, rather than one character to 100M? Versatility perhaps? What a crock! How many people actually do hisec market trading on the same character that does mining and invention and flies a stealth bomber and a titan?
The fixation with SP/hr is the hallmark of the munchkin: the type of person who spends more time rolling characters and tweaking stats than actually playing the game.
And yes, munchkin is my word of the day. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
John Ratcliffe
Sausy Sausages
163
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 15:38:00 -
[108] - Quote
Tippia wrote:John Ratcliffe wrote:In essence, I disagree. Any particular reason? What with? The list is a matter of fact, not opinion, by the way. The only way for it not to be is if it was limited in such a way that it might as well not be implemented at all.
Without typing everything out again, no. All of it, except one paragraph.
And it's not fact at all, it's your opinion, which is no more valid than anyone else's. Plus +ºa change, plus c'est la m+¬me chose |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14371
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 15:43:00 -
[109] - Quote
John Ratcliffe wrote:Without typing everything out again, no. All of it, except one paragraph. Any particular reason? And what's the exception?
Quote:And it's not fact at all Yes it is. Those are the unavoidable and obvious consequences. There are no two ways about it, and all you need to verify this is a bit of thinking.
If you think otherwise, prove it. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
368
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 15:45:00 -
[110] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Rebecha Pucontis wrote:It doesn't quite work like that. Remapping to Per and Will doesn't preclude you from training Int and Mem based skills. You will still have made a good decision remapping to Per and Will strategically if you spend a portion of the year training Per and Will skills and the rest training Int and Mem or other Attribute based skills. If you feel that you can only train specific skills because of a remap then I have to tell you that your thinking about it all wrong. If you don't spend more than half of a remap year training skills which take advantage of that remap, you've wasted any advantage you might have gained from that remap. Rebecha Pucontis wrote:In fact many choices you will face wont get much more meaningful than deciding which skills and in what order to train and which remap to use. GǪ Granted optimising skill training will only get you so far which is correct, but for those who have the intellectual and organisational ability they can get a tangible benefit to their performance over other players The more meaningful choices are the ones you make about who to make friends with, what ships you fly today, and whether you log in or not. The choice of minmaxing on attributes gains you a few more skill points down the road, certainly. I haven't trained a new skill on this character since January 2012 or so. Am I wasting potential? Not really: I do have the idea of getting into a black ops battleship at some point in time, but my current play style doesn't involve black ops. I can fly most sub-capital ships just fine. The emphasis that some folks place on finishing a 365 day training plan in 358 days is a little bizarre. The fascination that some people have of training to fly ships that they will never use is equally bizarre, as is the complaining that people emit on the forums about the cost of replacing clones which have 100M+ SP, most of which they never actually use! Why wouldn't you have trained three characters to 30M SP, rather than one character to 100M? Versatility perhaps? What a crock! How many people actually do hisec market trading on the same character that does mining and invention and flies a stealth bomber and a titan? The fixation with SP/hr is the hallmark of the munchkin: the type of person who spends more time rolling characters and tweaking stats than actually playing the game. Exactly my point. The idea that you can only train Per and Will based skills because you have that remap is the hallmark of a min maxing munckin as you put it. :) As you agree with me above in the fact that you will still gain benefit over the year even if you only train those skill for which you are remapped for a portion of it.
Remaps are good and make for some interesting decisions. But the mechanic can be ignored and people will still get by just fine, albeit with a slightly less optimised and slower training plan than other might have. |
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Six Six Six
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
116
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 15:46:00 -
[111] - Quote
Lost True wrote:Sure. But why to make PER+WIL, if you know that you'll be training some other skills?
Because of BC and destroyer changes, I'm kind of stuck with PER + WIL for the moment so just training gunnery skills only because it's more efficient to train those. And I'm fairly patient.
Anyway that's it from me for the moment, BBQ and maybe back later drunk. o/ |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3444
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 15:50:00 -
[112] - Quote
Would the game be broken if attributes were fixed-value and remaps were removed? Apparently so for some people who perceive incrementing values on their character sheet as more important than playing the game.
Remaps are a needlessly complicated mechanic which just adds to the burden of how much a new player has to learn to be effective in the game. A mistake in a remap can penalise a character for 12 months. It takes a lot of explaining to carry across the purpose of attributes and remaps, and player and their characters can actually be functional without worrying about remaps at all: this indicates to me that remaps are an ideal candidate for removal.
The skill training system already provides sufficient complexity and room for specialisation and minmaxing (the ongoing discussion about Drone Navigation 4 vs 5, Tactical Shield 4 vs 5, etc). Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Danni stark
393
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 15:54:00 -
[113] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Would the game be broken if attributes were fixed-value and remaps were removed?
no, i'd quite like it. i just don't see it happening.
at the moment there's a choice between "having fun" and "progressing my character" you can't really have both. i mainly blame learning implants for that but then again if i was really having more fun losing pods pvping and stuff, i wouldn't notice the slightly slower skill training. however, i love being efficient and stuff more than i love watching things go boom. just slightly annoying having to pick one or the other.
however, that's slightly off topic so whatever. Ice Mining Skill Plan. |
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
369
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 15:56:00 -
[114] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Would the game be broken if attributes were fixed-value and remaps were removed? Apparently so for some people who perceive incrementing values on their character sheet as more important than playing the game.
Remaps are a needlessly complicated mechanic which just adds to the burden of how much a new player has to learn to be effective in the game. A mistake in a remap can penalise a character for 12 months. It takes a lot of explaining to carry across the purpose of attributes and remaps, and player and their characters can actually be functional without worrying about remaps at all: this indicates to me that remaps are an ideal candidate for removal.
The skill training system already provides sufficient complexity and room for specialisation and minmaxing (the ongoing discussion about Drone Navigation 4 vs 5, Tactical Shield 4 vs 5, etc). Hmm I disagree, the added complexity is good in my opinion, I personally find it quite enjoyable creating skill plans and having to plan things in advance to optimise them. And the great thing is you can simply ignore the whole mechanic if you wish and still progress at an adequate pace as CCP has given everyone a good starting position no matter what they wish to train. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14371
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 16:02:00 -
[115] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Would the game be broken if attributes were fixed-value and remaps were removed? Not broken, just needlessly stripped of interesting long-term planning choices for character progression.
Quote:Remaps are a needlessly complicated mechanic which just adds to the burden of how much a new player has to learn to be effective in the game. A mistake in a remap can penalise a character for 12 months. GǪexcept that they have multiple remaps for exactly that reason. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3444
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 16:04:00 -
[116] - Quote
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:Remaps GǪ make for some interesting decisions.
This is the essence of my disagreement with your viewpoint. I do not view minmaxing as "interesting".
It's one of those systems where, were it my responsibility to maintain the software, the first time it caused problems I'd be pulling it out.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
SpaceyJoe Mentat
Nanten Knight's
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 16:06:00 -
[117] - Quote
Skill remapping doesn't have to be all-or-nothing. Most of the issues mentioned about paid skill-remapping could be solved by limiting the number of times paid skill-remapping could be done. For example, 1 paid (by plex) skill remapping could be allowed on a player/account per year. This would generate revenue for ccp and give players greater flexibility while not allowing the system to be abused by constant remapping.
EDIT: I agree with the above posters that constant remapping was a problem in most other pvp MMOs I have played. |
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
110
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 20:58:00 -
[118] - Quote
SpaceyJoe Mentat wrote:Skill remapping doesn't have to be all-or-nothing. Most of the issues mentioned about paid skill-remapping could be solved by limiting the number of times paid skill-remapping could be done. For example, 1 paid (by plex) skill remapping could be allowed on a player/account per year. This would generate revenue for ccp and give players greater flexibility while not allowing the system to be abused by constant remapping.
No. It still suffers all the problems Tippia listed.
Also, camel's nose under the tent . . .
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Djana Libra
The Black Ops S2N Citizens
176
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Posted - 2013.05.26 21:34:00 -
[119] - Quote
stop with the lame ideas to dumb the game down even more, you made a choice to put the attributes where they are at deal with it, its a consequence of your own action.
Remapping should not be available for a plex and skillpoint remapping should never ever be added. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7996
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Posted - 2013.05.26 21:39:00 -
[120] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:The more meaningful choices are the ones you make about who to make friends with, what ships you fly today, and whether you log in or not. The choice of minmaxing on attributes gains you a few more skill points down the road, certainly.
I do agree that spending months training ships you'll never fly is dumb, but people have 100M+ SP characters that can fly a covops, HAC, marauder, freighter, T3 and carrier because their playstyles change over the years. Unless you're a goon or a bort, you'll probably spend a significant amount of time in highsec, where you might end up flying a freighter. Let's say you then start doing some exploration in lowsec and you probe with a covops before running the site with a different ship. You also train a HAC and go on roams. Then you might move to nullsec, and you use a marauder to make some ISK in anomalies. Then you might train a carrier so you can move your ships more easily.
It's not munchkinism, it just accumulates over the years. Sure, you can stop training every character once you reach 40M SP and then train a new one, along with all of the missile/gunnery, mechanics, navigation, drones, engineering and electronics support skills. That, uh, doesn't really make sense.
Not that I disagree that "respecs" or "remaps on demand" are dumb ideas, mind you. Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
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