Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
2090
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 06:25:00 -
[61] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:As someone who has actually read it, I'm not entirely certain how the vast passages mostly describing how to identify your enemy's numbers by the amount of dust their march kicks up, what kind of weather is advantageous to attacking, and how to identify your enemy's morale by how the hold their lances translates into internet space warfare.
Whenever I see people reference it as some bible of strategy I just shake my head. 90% of it is incredibly specific to ancient chinese warfare, and the other 10% is essentially extremely basic strategic thinking 101. Anyone with a strategic mind already knows everything he wrote down. Things like "win a fight before you commit to it" are basic common sense. Can I at least apply that to Incursus hulls? I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:
https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted |
Liafcipe9000
Smeghead Empire
2735
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 06:44:00 -
[62] - Quote
there was an episode of Last Man Standing where the main character's boss talks more and more about Sun Tzu's writings, praising it and whatnot trying to convince the main character to read it too. and at the end of the episode he says "meh, China never won a war since then".
|
Vortexo VonBrenner
Coldest Sea Sailing
84
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 06:52:00 -
[63] - Quote
I don't know about anyone else , but this thread makes me want some General Tsao's chicken.
I'm listening to-áBj+¦rk, playing EVE, eating fishsticks, and I'm cold....this is immersion gaming. |
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
1785
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 06:58:00 -
[64] - Quote
Chin MonWang wrote:
So, I am curious to learn if there are any other pilots that possess a real understanding and knowledge of the Sun Tzu!??
I've read The Art of War - Repeatedly. I've served in the armed forces. Most of The Art of War cannot apply. the rest is sound advice, albeit kinda obvious if you think a bit.
Most of EVE doesn't have the level of organization required to make The Art of War useful - Tactics and strategy are meaningless in the stew of anarchy and chaos and ineptitude. However, there are some entities that apply the precepts well. The breaking of BoB (devise stratagems). The actions of GHSC (when close, make your enemy think you are far). The Battle of Asakai (on death ground, fight). Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 07:02:00 -
[65] - Quote
The way I play (maximize kills minimize losses) its very applicable. The people who play EvE like an FPS not so much. |
Garresh
Opposite of Low
196
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 10:11:00 -
[66] - Quote
I have read it, and on a very general level it is useful, but its the kind of thing where if you already know it, you agree, while if you don't know it, it doesn't really help.
Besides, I think Ender's Game is more appropriate, don't you? This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
361
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 10:50:00 -
[67] - Quote
Garresh wrote:I have read it, and on a very general level it is useful, but its the kind of thing where if you already know it, you agree, while if you don't know it, it doesn't really help.
Besides, I think Ender's Game is more appropriate, don't you? To be honest most of the ideas described seem like common sense to me. Such as don't engage the enemy on unfavourable terms, and dictate the engagement in your favour, dont charge up a hill into a hail of arrows, and that sort of thing. It is always good to remember common sense when fighting as I know some people probably forget particularly in eve. But surely you could just sum up the whole book in a sentence, "use common sense when fighting your enemy". |
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
361
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 10:51:00 -
[68] - Quote
Ginger Barbarella wrote:stoicfaux wrote:And what would Sun Tzu say about the strategic and tactical value of spending one's time playing war in an internet game about imaginary spaceships?
Sun Tzu was probably a fat neckbeard that lived in his mom's tent... Haha :) |
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
361
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 11:00:00 -
[69] - Quote
Shao Huang wrote:The Classical Chinese texts differ from Eurocentric text in several ways. Whereas Leibniz and Newton want to argue about who came up with the Calculus first, the classical Chinese approach is to claim the thing was said by some ancient and then comment on it. Very little of Sun Tzu is actually Sun Tzu. Most of it is the commentaries. Hmm that is a very accurate perception of the differing cultures. I have noticed in Eastern culture they seem to have great reverence for scholars of the past and will go to great lengths to build upon old theories even though they seem very shaky by today standards. Whereas in Western culture we will be very quick to dismiss and throw out an old theory and once it doesn't stack up to the evidence. |
Tri Vetra
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
74
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 11:11:00 -
[70] - Quote
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:Shao Huang wrote:The Classical Chinese texts differ from Eurocentric text in several ways. Whereas Leibniz and Newton want to argue about who came up with the Calculus first, the classical Chinese approach is to claim the thing was said by some ancient and then comment on it. Very little of Sun Tzu is actually Sun Tzu. Most of it is the commentaries. Hmm that is a very accurate perception of the differing cultures. I have noticed in Eastern culture they seem to have great reverence for scholars of the past and will go to great lengths to build upon old theories even though they seem very shaky by today standards. Whereas in Western culture we will be very quick to dismiss and throw out an old theory and once it doesn't stack up to the evidence.
no, that was from anime you watched, it's not actually how "eastern culture" works. |
|
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
361
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 11:27:00 -
[71] - Quote
Tri Vetra wrote:Rebecha Pucontis wrote:Shao Huang wrote:The Classical Chinese texts differ from Eurocentric text in several ways. Whereas Leibniz and Newton want to argue about who came up with the Calculus first, the classical Chinese approach is to claim the thing was said by some ancient and then comment on it. Very little of Sun Tzu is actually Sun Tzu. Most of it is the commentaries. Hmm that is a very accurate perception of the differing cultures. I have noticed in Eastern culture they seem to have great reverence for scholars of the past and will go to great lengths to build upon old theories even though they seem very shaky by today standards. Whereas in Western culture we will be very quick to dismiss and throw out an old theory and once it doesn't stack up to the evidence. no, that was from anime you watched, it's not actually how "eastern culture" works. It is actually from text and theories written by old Eastern Scholars. Many books from current "masters" in the East pay great reverence to them.
I guess you could compare it to Western religious texts, although even their reverence is diminished in this day an age. |
ElQuirko
Jester Syndicate S0UTHERN C0MF0RT
1325
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 12:10:00 -
[72] - Quote
Arduemont wrote:I am half way through "The Great Karate Myth" and "A Brief History of Time", but I am re-reading the Java Certified Programming books (1 through 3) and then I need to read "The Folly of Reason" and "Algorithms & Data Structures"... and then the Ian Banks books... then I have a biography of Nikola Tesla, that I have been meaning to read... hmm.. I should put that one forward in the list really.
Sun Tzu wrote: Go outside
OfBalance wrote: Please send me all your stuff so that I may liberate the proletariat, brother.
Interesting you should say that, I live on a communal farm and share all my property and bandwidth with my comrades. Don't tell them about EVE though, my account is the one thing I'm not allowed to share. Save the Domi model! Spacewhales should be preserved. |
Yokai Mitsuhide
Smegnet Corp
4075
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 12:14:00 -
[73] - Quote
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:Tri Vetra wrote:Rebecha Pucontis wrote:Shao Huang wrote:The Classical Chinese texts differ from Eurocentric text in several ways. Whereas Leibniz and Newton want to argue about who came up with the Calculus first, the classical Chinese approach is to claim the thing was said by some ancient and then comment on it. Very little of Sun Tzu is actually Sun Tzu. Most of it is the commentaries. Hmm that is a very accurate perception of the differing cultures. I have noticed in Eastern culture they seem to have great reverence for scholars of the past and will go to great lengths to build upon old theories even though they seem very shaky by today standards. Whereas in Western culture we will be very quick to dismiss and throw out an old theory and once it doesn't stack up to the evidence. no, that was from anime you watched, it's not actually how "eastern culture" works. It is actually from text and theories written by old Eastern Scholars. Many books from current "masters" in the East pay great reverence to them. I guess you could compare it to Western religious texts, although even their reverence is diminished in this day an age.
Wasting your time trying to have a reasonable conversation with a Goon. |
Aracimia Wolfe
The Cursed Navy
238
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 12:14:00 -
[74] - Quote
I always interpreted the Art of War not so much as a literal thing *lances straight? run!* but a way to create a mindset for an aspiring general. It's the philosophy of thought that drives the decision thats important.
Works pretty well for me in RTS games. However in Eve I'd be better served by a treatise in guerilla warfare. Kill it with Fire! |
Victor Dathar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
69
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 12:29:00 -
[75] - Quote
Ancient Chinese Proverb say: "Man who dips into other mans well catch only crabs". |
Leper ofBacon
Benzene Inc. Incendia legio scientiae
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 12:47:00 -
[76] - Quote
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:Tri Vetra wrote:Rebecha Pucontis wrote:Shao Huang wrote:The Classical Chinese texts differ from Eurocentric text in several ways. Whereas Leibniz and Newton want to argue about who came up with the Calculus first, the classical Chinese approach is to claim the thing was said by some ancient and then comment on it. Very little of Sun Tzu is actually Sun Tzu. Most of it is the commentaries. Hmm that is a very accurate perception of the differing cultures. I have noticed in Eastern culture they seem to have great reverence for scholars of the past and will go to great lengths to build upon old theories even though they seem very shaky by today standards. Whereas in Western culture we will be very quick to dismiss and throw out an old theory and once it doesn't stack up to the evidence. no, that was from anime you watched, it's not actually how "eastern culture" works. It is actually from text and theories written by old Eastern Scholars. Many books from current "masters" in the East pay great reverence to them. I guess you could compare it to Western religious texts, although even their reverence is diminished in this day an age.
I too have never read all the way through a book and am also delighted to deliver my opinions to the internet authoritatively with absolutely no specific references! |
Brujo Loco
Brujeria Teologica
890
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 15:24:00 -
[77] - Quote
I have found reading D&D paperback novels is good for EVE Online, it has magic, wizards, Necromancers, halflings ... Inner Sayings of BrujoLoco: http://eve-files.com/sig/brujoloco |
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
1786
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 15:32:00 -
[78] - Quote
Aracimia Wolfe wrote:I always interpreted the Art of War not so much as a literal thing *lances straight? run!* but a way to create a mindset for an aspiring general. It's the philosophy of thought that drives the decision thats important.
Works pretty well for me in RTS games. However in Eve I'd be better served by a treatise in guerilla warfare. The Art of War addresses what we now call "Geurilla War" or "A-Symmetrical Warfare" with reasonable detail - Broad strokes, but still classically applicable. Any detailed text on the subject is going to be too specific to apply to EVE. The Art of War's basic take on it is sufficient.
Your observation about 'establishing mindset' is spot-on. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc |
OfBalance
Caldari State
495
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 15:58:00 -
[79] - Quote
ElQuirko wrote: Interesting you should say that, I live on a communal farm and share all my property and bandwidth with my comrades. Don't tell them about EVE though, my account is the one thing I'm not allowed to share.
That's amazing brother, please share you in-game property (That's such a dirt word! You know that there's no such thing!) with me so that I can attend to the liberating! |
Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
408
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 16:02:00 -
[80] - Quote
Chin MonWang wrote:Having read many comments on warfare on the forums made me realy wonder: "how many of the pilots did actually REALY take an effort to study the both tactical and strategical riches offered by the writings of Sun Tzu", since real knowledge of the Arts of War would of course for most represent an enormous benefit during their strivings to get to be succesful to some extend in space warfare (high/low/nul sec)
So, I am curious to learn if there are any other pilots that possess a real understanding and knowledge of the Sun Tzu!??
Ah yes, the timeless wisdom of Sun Tzu. One of the most quotable ancient military tacticians, who can forget such gems as:
-"He who knows when he can kite and when he has to hide in a safe spot, will be victorious."
-"Victorious warriors fit first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then fit."
-"He who is prudent and AFK cloaks in the enemy system to deny them their ISK, will be victorious."
|
|
Six Six Six
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
74
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 16:08:00 -
[81] - Quote
I won't read it either.
Most of it should be common sense anyway.
Seen too many bad managers in the past, where you can tell someone's removed the brain and inserted a text book. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
932
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 16:11:00 -
[82] - Quote
Six Six Six wrote:I won't read it either.
Most of it should be common sense anyway.
Seen too many bad managers in the past, where you can tell someone's removed the brain and inserted a text book.
This is what it comes down to. The kind of person who thinks they have some special insight into Eve warfare because they read Sun Tzu is likely kind of a knob. The fact that they are kind of a knob means they are going to be mediocre at best at Eve warfare.
It's really the attitude about the knowledge and it's applicability more than the knowledge itself. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
932
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 16:14:00 -
[83] - Quote
I'll add that this thread has shown a shocking mix of fun-making and genuine insight for GD. There may yet be hope for this forum section. |
Minerva Zen
Swords of Valor
24
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 16:23:00 -
[84] - Quote
Sun Tzu had some great fitting advice:
An army that is strong on the left is weak on the right. Strong at the front, weak at the rear. Strong everywhere, weak everywhere.
He also gave a nod to logistics' superiority to tactics in the long term.
His greatest contribution is the idea that there is no single magic thing that allows you to know in advance how anything military is going to turn out. You cannot buy safety for any price. You must always follow up your preparations with awareness and self-control.
If you prefer preparation over awareness and discipline and good old hard work, Sun Tzu will not help you.
See my bio for more. |
Six Six Six
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
74
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 16:28:00 -
[85] - Quote
Minerva Zen wrote:
His greatest contribution is the idea that there is no single magic thing that allows you to know in advance how anything military is going to turn out. You cannot buy safety for any price. You must always follow up your preparations with awareness and self-control.
Which boils down to common sense.
If that's his greatest contribution, then all I can say is I'm glad I've not read it. Not that I would anyway. |
Six Six Six
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
76
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 16:52:00 -
[86] - Quote
Minerva Zen wrote: If you prefer preparation over awareness and discipline and good old hard work, Sun Tzu will not help you.
That line doesn't make sense to me.
Preparation always helps but you can't rely on it (which might be what he means, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't prepare).
Awareness is something you should have constantly regardless, as things can change rapidly.
You can have hard work without the discipline but you can't have discipline without the hard work.
|
Minerva Zen
Swords of Valor
24
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 17:50:00 -
[87] - Quote
Six Six Six wrote:Minerva Zen wrote: If you prefer preparation over awareness and discipline and good old hard work, Sun Tzu will not help you.
That line doesn't make sense to me. ...If that's a direct quote from him, what he probably means is if you put your faith in preparation alone or rely too heavily on it then you're a fool and Sun Tzu can't help you.
Sounds like you've got it, basically. For those following along, here's some Bruce Lee:
Before I learned how to punch, a punch was just a punch. While I was learning how to punch, a punch was much more than just a punch. After I learned how to punch, a punch was once again just a punch. |
Shao Huang
University of Caille Gallente Federation
230
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 18:06:00 -
[88] - Quote
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:Shao Huang wrote:The Classical Chinese texts differ from Eurocentric text in several ways. Whereas Leibniz and Newton want to argue about who came up with the Calculus first, the classical Chinese approach is to claim the thing was said by some ancient and then comment on it. Very little of Sun Tzu is actually Sun Tzu. Most of it is the commentaries. Hmm that is a very accurate perception of the differing cultures. I have noticed in Eastern culture they seem to have great reverence for scholars of the past and will go to great lengths to build upon old theories even though they seem very shaky by today standards. Whereas in Western culture we will be very quick to dismiss and throw out an old theory and once it doesn't stack up to the evidence.
There are other differences. They are not True, but true enough to notice. For instance:
The Hellenistic Eurocentric thesis is often a matter of linked if-then statements leading to a conclusion. The Classical Chinese approach to that same thing might fully surround the thesis without ever making it explicit.
At the same time that Pythagoras was deriving his theorem on right triangles there existed in China a text called 'The Book of Triangles'. It contains very little theory and some equations, but it has many, many examples of empirical right triangles in the world.
There are other interesting examples including medicine, causality, logic, language, governance, etc. Private sig. Do not read. |
Vortexo VonBrenner
Coldest Sea Sailing
89
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 18:23:00 -
[89] - Quote
Somewhat Ironically, on the Chinese server they're debating applying the wisdom of ancient Viking military philosopher Thorval Ravenhand to EVE. Pearls such as:
"When your enemy thinks you are far, emit a blood-curdling battlescream and attack."
"When outnumbered by your enemy, emit a blood-curdling battlescream and attack."
"He who prepares carefully will be made ravenfood by him who screams and attacks"
By all accounts it's quite a spirited - yet highly honorable, mind you - debate.
I'm listening to-áBj+¦rk, playing EVE, eating fishsticks, and I'm cold....this is immersion gaming. |
Shao Huang
University of Caille Gallente Federation
231
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 18:36:00 -
[90] - Quote
Minerva Zen wrote:Six Six Six wrote:Minerva Zen wrote: If you prefer preparation over awareness and discipline and good old hard work, Sun Tzu will not help you.
That line doesn't make sense to me. ...If that's a direct quote from him, what he probably means is if you put your faith in preparation alone or rely too heavily on it then you're a fool and Sun Tzu can't help you. Sounds like you've got it, basically. For those following along, here's some Bruce Lee: Before I learned how to punch, a punch was just a punch. While I was learning how to punch, a punch was much more than just a punch. After I learned how to punch, a punch was once again just a punch.
There is no punch.
Private sig. Do not read. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |