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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
359
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 21:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
Today at about 16:00 I and some other known loyalists received a request from the Republic Fleet to assist in an operation to forcibly extradite the shooter of Karin Midular from Federation care. The leader of the operation was given as General Aruko Aruman of the Republic Fleet; point of contact was Heder Elislar. I stated my opinion that I thought the operation was madness and that the Fleet should stand down, but under what for me counts as orders gathered a patrol force to support.
I was at no point given further intel about the exact plans of the Fleet. I went into Bei with the goal of coming out of this without having to engage and without betraying my oath to the Minmatar Republic. I failed in the first.
At about 20:00 local a Republic Fleet capital wing entered Colelie and demanded passage further. Federation Navy capital wing denied. Words were exchanged. Both in public and in private I and others from Electus Matari pleaded for the Republic Fleet to stand down, but this was in vain. When the Republic Fleet engaged, I was told by the officers in charge of the capitals that this was under orders "from the top".
Being an oath-bound warrior of the Republic I could personally see no other option than to follow the Fleet. I did not agree with the order and I agree with our current leadership even less, but to refuse simply because I found the order disagreeable would have gone against everything I have spoken for during my career in space.
I gave the order to the EM fleet to engage; the pilots with me should not be blamed.
We lost.
To whom it may concern: Electus Matari does not agree with this course of action. This is not the way to treat our allies. This is not the way to win the war with the real enemy. This is not the way to honor the legacy of the Ray. We followed our leaders now, but we warn you to remember that you can only lead free people to where they are willing to follow. The Matari people in space have always been divided into two: those who cherish war for the sake of honor and emotion, and those who rather avoid it for the sake of long-turn survival of our people. When the Ray was in charge, she managed to balance the two for a long time. The "Sanmatar" now needs to do the same.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Director, Gradient Diplomat, Electus Matari |
Shintoko Akahoshi
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
40
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Posted - 2013.05.07 21:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
Can you imagine being a fly on the wall of the Imperial Court today? Bio and writing |
Heinel Coventina
University of Caille Gallente Federation
16
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Posted - 2013.05.07 21:36:00 -
[3] - Quote
A sound choice.
Don't admit defeat before the dusts settle. The tides are turning, but the beacon is now passed from one to many. Keep your compasses clear, that's your only guide now. |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
462
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 21:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
Allies? I always thought the Republic was a Federation protectorate. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
Hadrian Tivianne
The Scope Gallente Federation
17
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Posted - 2013.05.07 21:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
I can say with a certainty that the desire to avoid conflict was just as strong with the fleets on the Gallente side. it should never have gotten as far as it did, the outcome is nothing short of a tragedy. |
Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
429
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 21:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
Excuse my ignorance regarding Republic and tribal politics if any of this is incorrect, but wasn't Midular a proponent of peace? I believe when she was ousted from office she was trying to foster relations with an entity many Minmatar consider an enemy (the Amarr Empire), and now the Republic honors her memory by attacking someone who should be an ally? |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
361
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 21:47:00 -
[7] - Quote
That does not sound ignorant at all. Congratulations.
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
1031
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 21:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
I honour you for supporting your kin despite your reservations. I also honour you for serving notice that you support is not something that can be taken advantage of in the future. |
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
403
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 22:03:00 -
[9] - Quote
That's an ugly place to be. You have my sympathies. although my eyes were open they might have just as well've been closed
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Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
894
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 22:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
So what you're saying is though you knew the order to fire was wrong, you did it anyway, and now you criticise the order you voluntarily followed?
You aided and assisted a hostile invasion fleet against the allies of the Republic, and broke strict terms of the Yulai convention. Your actions have likely put unnecessary strain on an alliance already battered by pointless sabre ratting and politicking over this shooter.
And it seems that a woman who spent her life campaigning for peace will be remembered with her death leading to a pointless f##king bloodbath. You made your own choice today, the pilots with you did the same.
I only hope that lessons can be learned from today today, and learned in time to repair this battered relationship and find a peaceful resolution to the situation at hand. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
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Tarren Vetal
EVE University Ivy League
2
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Posted - 2013.05.07 22:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
You always have a choice--a choice whether to follow foolish orders, or to serve the Republic you believe in. It is the duty of a loyalist to oppose leadership that would destroy the institutions he or she is sworn to, not to follow all orders blindly, wherever they may lead.
You take the blame for this as much as anyone present--and the pilots who followed you do as well. By obeying the directives of thugs and madmen, you only increase their power. The consequences are on your head. Next time, maybe Electus Matari should consider what's really in the best interest of the Republic. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
366
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 22:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
I was the EM FC on the field today, so the choice was mine.
And I never denied the fact that I had a choice. I had one, and I made the choice, and now I live (or die) with it. Both options were bad, but that does not mean I am free of the consequences of the choice I picked.
I do not need more sermons about how terrible the situation was and how terrible the things we did. I am aware, thank you.
Elsebeth |
Shintoko Akahoshi
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
50
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 22:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
Thanks for the honesty, Elsebeth.
For the record, will EM be supporting future Republic strikes into Federation space? Bio and writing |
Gosakumori Noh
Viziam Amarr Empire
198
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 23:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
Meet the new filth, "just following orders" like the old filth - and whining about it much the same, too. Isn't it splendid? Now perhaps the Federation will be sympathetic to a more permanent solution for the Sebiestor. |
Sixx Vicious
Fallen Supremacy
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 23:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:So what you're saying is though you knew the order to fire was wrong, you did it anyway, and now you criticise the order you voluntarily followed?
You aided and assisted a hostile invasion fleet against the allies of the Republic, and broke strict terms of the Yulai convention. Your actions have likely put unnecessary strain on an alliance already battered by pointless sabre ratting and politicking over this shooter.
And it seems that a woman who spent her life campaigning for peace will be remembered with her death leading to a pointless f##king bloodbath. You made your own choice today, the pilots with you did the same.
I only hope that lessons can be learned from today today, and learned in time to repair this battered relationship and find a peaceful resolution to the situation at hand.
Antagonizing our allies further is not the answer either.
Miss Rhiannon took an oath to Republic and her people and she followed that oath as best she could. She is a soldier and a warrior and sometimes those responsibilities that those oaths carry take you to very dark places you do not wish to go.
I was there, with the Federation defending my home space, I took no pleasure in opening fire on our allies. As a soldier to another I respect the hard choice she had to make, the one many of us had to today. Do I agree with it, no, but I do respect the difficult situation she was in.
It is extremely regrettable that the situation came down to what transpired Colelie. Wounds have been left on both our people. Noone won anything this day.
I truly hope that the tragedy of Colelie will never repeat itself. |
Virgil Scipion
Electus Matari
1
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Posted - 2013.05.07 23:45:00 -
[16] - Quote
Elsebeth acted with the agreement of her alliance leader, ie me. So if you reproach Else for something, first reproach me for it.
Tonight, we have accepted to join the Republic fleet. We are soldiers, experienced combat pilots, when we accept to join an operation and are aware of the consequences, we accept to follow our FC orders. We accepted to follow Elsebeth' orders, herself following Republic Fleet commander orders.
This may be a mistake or not. This may change ourselves or not. We don't know, we speak about it. Our admiral ordered us to fire, we did. We did what we did, we assume it.
But Electus Matari agrees this was a mess.
Before the battle our calls, and many others, to our commanders were clear : we are of peace. Commanders from both sides didn't seem to be. So we accepted our fate, as ship captains, as Republic pilots. And we lost the battle
Now our generals are a bunch of idiots who look like warmongers who loose their first battle. If Pator politicians want names to replace them, they just have to ask... Anyway, IGS is not the best place to speak with truth and outspokenness. I welcome you to our public channel if you want to say something to EM. We accept any polite criticize.
At personal level, I'm not ashamed of that. For me tonight it was an ego contest. A big expensive tournament between two old friends, friends since so many years they were eager to fight a bit to test each other. The Gallente kicked our ass tonight. Be proud comrades ! Damn 3 Electus ships destroyed, gf ! They crushed our dread fleet, something like 12/12 at start and 5/1 at end. Now I remember why I fight aside of these guys. You little bastard, your are bad ass, I love you :)
So now misters Squidy and Mary, we are trained and prepared, next is you, and not for the fun.
Virgil Scipion Electus Matari Alliance leader |
Shintoko Akahoshi
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
52
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 00:02:00 -
[17] - Quote
In that case, Virgil, my question stands to you, then.
For the record, will EM be supporting future Republic strikes into Federation space?
I think I'm owed an answer to that, for old time's sake if nothing else. Bio and writing |
Ava Starfire
Gradient Electus Matari
986
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 00:12:00 -
[18] - Quote
Elsebeth told every one of us in the Fleet we were free to turn back. We were not pressured into a course of action when the firing commenced.
I opened fire. It was my decision. There was no "right" decision for us at that point; stand with our Kin, or watch them fall. When the last of the Republic Fleet had been destroyed, we engaged in rescue operations, retrieving as many as we could from the Naglfar wrecks.
Today was an affront to the Ray of Matar. We're quite aware of that.
For those of us who were there, to do nothing would have been equally disrespectful to her memory.
A dark day became infinitely worse.
Shaman Avlynka Surionen "There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception."
-Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North" |
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
577
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 00:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
Elsebeth, Virgil:
Thank you for this clarification.
It is an immense relief to me to hear that there were many voices of reason on both sides calling out against the hot-headed, brash behavior by those above us.
Thank you. Morwen Lagann Director, Tyrathlion Interstellar |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
490
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 00:15:00 -
[20] - Quote
Commendable and appreciated clarification.
However, I can not help but wonder at the use of the word "we are soldiers". Well, you are independant capsuleers, actually. |
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Lyn Farel
Kitzless
490
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 00:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
Ava Starfire wrote:
For those of us who were there, to do nothing would have been equally disrespectful to her memory.
You remember what she did concerning Karishal Muritor, right ? |
Ava Starfire
Gradient Electus Matari
986
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 00:33:00 -
[22] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Ava Starfire wrote:
For those of us who were there, to do nothing would have been equally disrespectful to her memory.
You remember what she did concerning Karishal Muritor, right ?
I'm pretty sure it didnt include standing by and watching while her boss, friends, and relatives engaged in a battle all around her. "There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception."
-Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North" |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
490
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 00:35:00 -
[23] - Quote
It included assassinating their warmongering leader... |
Ava Starfire
Gradient Electus Matari
986
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 00:40:00 -
[24] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:It included assassinating their warmongering leader, abandoning their whole fleet in the process.
I would have abandoned the fleet.
I will not abandon my boss, friends, and relatives.
You seem to be confused. My friends, boss, and relatives werent on Naglfars. "There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception."
-Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North" |
Alexis Valentyne
Luxe Holdings
1130
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 00:59:00 -
[25] - Quote
I would like to ask Elsebeth if, in hindsight, she would have done anything differently?
Further to this, if you are put in a similar situation in the future, would you repeat your actions in the name of your kin? I seem to smell the stench of appeasement in the air. |
Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force Tribal Band
891
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 01:19:00 -
[26] - Quote
I respect your honesty and humility, but I simply cannot accept "just following orders" as a valid excuse.
Many men and women throughout history who were "just following orders" have committed atrocities that cannot even be described with words alone. Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |
James Syagrius
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly
363
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 01:41:00 -
[27] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Today at about 16:00 I and some other known loyalists received a request from the Republic Fleet to assist in an operation to forcibly extradite the shooter of Karin Midular from Federation care. The leader of the operation was given as General Aruko Aruman of the Republic Fleet; point of contact was Heder Elislar. I stated my opinion that I thought the operation was madness and that the Fleet should stand down, but under what for me counts as orders gathered a patrol force to support.
I was at no point given further intel about the exact plans of the Fleet. I went into Bei with the goal of coming out of this without having to engage and without betraying my oath to the Minmatar Republic. I failed in the first.
At about 20:00 local a Republic Fleet capital wing entered Colelie and demanded passage further. Federation Navy capital wing denied. Words were exchanged. Both in public and in private I and others from Electus Matari pleaded for the Republic Fleet to stand down, but this was in vain. When the Republic Fleet engaged, I was told by the officers in charge of the capitals that this was under orders "from the top".
Being an oath-bound warrior of the Republic I could personally see no other option than to follow the Fleet. I did not agree with the order and I agree with our current leadership even less, but to refuse simply because I found the order disagreeable would have gone against everything I have spoken for during my career in space.
I gave the order to the EM fleet to engage; the pilots with me should not be blamed.
We lost.
To whom it may concern: Electus Matari does not agree with this course of action. This is not the way to treat our allies. This is not the way to win the war with the real enemy. This is not the way to honor the legacy of the Ray. We followed our leaders now, but we warn you to remember that you can only lead free people to where they are willing to follow. The Matari people in space have always been divided into two: those who cherish war for the sake of honor and emotion, and those who rather avoid it for the sake of long-turn survival of our people. When the Ray was in charge, she managed to balance the two for a long time. The "Sanmatar" now needs to do the same.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Director, Gradient Diplomat, Electus Matari So basicly what you're saying is, it was wrong, we knew it was wrong, but we were just following orders. How very convenient. You have spilled free blood Tribal. Own it. GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
http://syagrius-eve.blogspot.com/
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Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
435
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 01:59:00 -
[28] - Quote
"Just following orders" carries an unfortunate dichotomy.
On the one hand, it is sometimes used to try and absolve people of wrongdoing when atrocities are committed, but on the other hand, without scores of people who just follow orders, no military can function. |
Gosakumori Noh
Viziam Amarr Empire
201
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 03:43:00 -
[29] - Quote
Ava Starfire wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:It included assassinating their warmongering leader, abandoning their whole fleet in the process. You seem to be confused.
If there is anyone "confused" by all of this, it is the Sebiestor dolls who, apparently about as aware of their own Tribe's actual history now as in past years, chose to honor this particular witch in this particular way. What could possibly be more inappropriate? It would be astounding - save for the fact we are talking about the most superficial, vapid, and self-absorbed members of the pod community. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
155
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 03:59:00 -
[30] - Quote
Gosakumori Noh wrote:It would be astounding - save for the fact we are talking about the most superficial, vapid, and self-absorbed members of the pod community.
Like yourself.
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