Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Archbishop
|
Posted - 2005.10.06 01:48:00 -
[1]
As I recall in the last patch the Dev's corrected a situation where they ruled Drones being used to attack a POS constituted an exploit as they diverted the POS firepower away from ships (the real target).
But what about shuttles? I noticed today in a POS attack nearly 100% of destroyed ships were shuttles. First shuttles can't fire at all so I assume they're attacked as enemies of the POS owner.
What is the tracking like on POS guns? Can they keep up with shuttles? How accurate are they? Or do they chase shuttles around for hours until they manage a hit while all along enemy warships are pounding away? Is this an exploit like the drones were?
Comments?
Archbishop
VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Wee Dave
|
Posted - 2005.10.06 02:31:00 -
[2]
As I recall it's the cycling of the POS guns that are the problem.
Look at it this way: If my POS gun goes
*bs* *shuttle* *shuttle* *shuttle* *shuttle* *bs* in terms of what it hits, then the enemy has effectively reduced the effectiveness of my gun by 2/3, since I'm only hitting a real target 1/3 of the time.
Same with drones; as I understand it the pos would shoot and kill the drones, but because of the cycling method most of the shoots were wasted vaporising drones instead of forcing dangerous ships to warp out by putting them into armor in a single shot.
|
Tas Devil
|
Posted - 2005.10.06 02:36:00 -
[3]
having shuttles in an attacking fleet is not an exploit... think missile batteries.... + you need pleople to fly each individual shuttle.... which also reduces the dmg output of the attcking fleet by the same proportion as you reduce the effectiveness of the POS defenses due to the shuttles being there...
using shuttles to attck a POS is the sillyest thing I have heard yet.... move on nothing to see here....
|
CelticKnight
|
Posted - 2005.10.06 02:44:00 -
[4]
I imagine interceptors would be a more viable idea. Because with MWD active they would be a tough target to hit... and if you had a fleet of the things.. and thier weapons would be doing dmg as well.. :( maybe the attacking fleet was on a budget??!
Oh well.. most of these things will be negated once we see the dreads actually moving against someones well defended POS.. Seige mode + Dread = POS go BOOM!
Im so glad i got out of the pos business...
Originally by: Oveur I can make 100 Trillion ISK with a single click.
|
Archbishop
|
Posted - 2005.10.06 05:14:00 -
[5]
Well if it doesn't fit the definition of exploit it sure fits the definition of lame. The "spirit" of the game, attacking a POS, bringing it down is ruined. It just goes to show you some people will do anything for an advantage. Rather then getting the blood pumping, a fleet engaging a defended POS, ships exploding and tanking the POS guns, you have lamer-shuttle attack 2005.
The cycling of the POS guns clearly is a game mechanic that needs repair. Perhaps going after the largest target first instead? I mean if sentries were manned by a crew wouldn't they ignore an unarmed shuttle and instead attack the ship with the biggest bang?
This is about the saddest attempt to exploit a flaw in game mechanics I've seen in a long time (and I've been around Eve a long time). I'd rank this right up there with the barge killing alt-kestrels from a few months back.
Being 40 years old I really don't use words like "lame" in real life. But thats about the only word that describes something like this. Just lame.
Archbishop
VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Aotearorian
|
Posted - 2005.10.06 06:14:00 -
[6]
It is an exploite. All attackers need to do if to jetison a lot of shuttles from industrial. After that jump in shuttle, orbit pos. Shuttle boom, jump itnto an other. Pos probably will attack unmanned shatles to. So, lots of cheap disosable targets. They even cheaper then drones.
|
Maggot
|
Posted - 2005.10.06 07:43:00 -
[7]
Archi,
Good question. But using a shuttle is the same as a using a vigil or any other fast frigate for this task. In fact it is less effective, but cheaper.
The tracking on a small gun is similar to 250 artillery.
This issue is really one of POS design rather than lame tactics.
Maggot.
|
James Lyrus
|
Posted - 2005.10.06 08:28:00 -
[8]
Don't forget that POS guns, particularly things like artillery batteries, don't have a huge amount of ammo.
So flying shuttles in circles, at the shield radius will do a fairly good job of depleting it.
Especially vs. medium/large guns, which don't have particularly impressive tracking. (Smalls are better, because they have a better sig radius and better tracking, but it's still not perfect.) Investment Opportunity:
|
Archbishop
|
Posted - 2005.10.06 14:54:00 -
[9]
Quote: "Archi,
Good question. But using a shuttle is the same as a using a vigil or any other fast frigate for this task. In fact it is less effective, but cheaper.
The tracking on a small gun is similar to 250 artillery.
This issue is really one of POS design rather than lame tactics."
Yes and no. A smaller ship like the Vigil could have a real advantage. I assume the POS guns can be jammed or dampend? So an EW frigate could serve a purpose. Shuttles on the other hand have no offensive capability. Hell even drones are more dangerous then a shuttle.
Archie
VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Anjerrai Meloanis
|
Posted - 2005.10.06 15:21:00 -
[10]
I actually find it completely unfair that you can keep topping up the reinforced fuel so it lasts ages..
And also the fact that the guns still fire on you when its reinforced..
But hey, it certainly makes them hard to take down uh.
|
|
Just Smith
|
Posted - 2005.10.06 15:24:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Anjerrai Meloanis I actually find it completely unfair that you can keep topping up the reinforced fuel so it lasts ages..
And also the fact that the guns still fire on you when its reinforced..
But hey, it certainly makes them hard to take down
not been able to top up the reinforced fuel for ages now, as the shields have to be over 50% if they are strong, avoid them, if they are angry, disturb them, if they are confused, take them, if they are relaxed, toil them,
...if they are united, separate them |
Eddie Gordo
|
Posted - 2005.10.06 15:37:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Archbishop
Quote: "Archi,
Good question. But using a shuttle is the same as a using a vigil or any other fast frigate for this task. In fact it is less effective, but cheaper.
The tracking on a small gun is similar to 250 artillery.
This issue is really one of POS design rather than lame tactics."
Yes and no. A smaller ship like the Vigil could have a real advantage. I assume the POS guns can be jammed or dampend? So an EW frigate could serve a purpose. Shuttles on the other hand have no offensive capability. Hell even drones are more dangerous then a shuttle Archie
Ships, Gun Turrets, Missile Batteries & all other POS structures are imune to target locks whilst inside the bubble. Only the control tower can be locked.
The rational behind using shuttles was for them to get insta-killed while the battleships setup. They were not needed to help with the tanking (the pos only had three guns!) We have a new corp in our alliance, most of them are VERY new and even a frigate seems expensive to a lot of them. They needed a way to feel usefull.
Now recruiting
|
Maggot
|
Posted - 2005.10.06 15:37:00 -
[13]
Archi, I dont think you can do anything to the pos guns using dampening or jamming from what I have seen.
The vigils are better than shuttles though without a doubt as they are faster and don't get hit at all. As you will have seen from the kill mails the shuttles do get splattered from time to time.
The shuttles were there mainly for one purpose, cannon fodder on the warp in and warp out - but a few more pilots came than I expected as it was a full scale alliance mobilisation.
Drones just hover around the perimeter and dont seem to do any damage due to the range to the control tower. The lag the drones cause makes them not worth deploying.
That POS designer though has learnt his lesson about setups and will be fitting a few different mods next time I bet ;)
|
theRaptor
|
Posted - 2005.10.06 15:57:00 -
[14]
Shuttles pose no threat to a POS, just like drone's didn't. So using them to tie up the retarded AI is obviously an exploit. Though I personally blame CCP more for not doing something to make the turrets intelligent.
And I heard the noise of thunder. And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him |
Maggot
|
Posted - 2005.10.06 16:15:00 -
[15]
Would be great if you could configure the POS to fire on targets in order or your choice or randomly between certain types.
Problem with saying shuttles are an exploit is where do you draw the line. If a group brought 20 vigils and 20 battleships and fought against a badly designed POS is that an exploit?
|
Sulla
|
Posted - 2005.10.06 16:34:00 -
[16]
This POS in question was not 'poorly designed". It is simply the basis of an RP initiative of a small listening post we hoped to develop soon with U'K.
Surely you can't believe we ever expected a POS of that size and configuration to withstand a full scale U'K assault. Please don't interpret this thread as a "You're attacking our POS" whine..it's not.
We just feel the use of shuttles to take advantage of CCP giving the stations a targeting AI I.Q. lower than a hamster is beneath UK's dignity. You guys are better than that and you know it.
Besides...surely U'K is wealthy enough to loan your new guys some T1 frigs.
Sulla
Go tell the Spartans, stranger passing by, That here, obedient to their laws, we lie. |
Stepping Razor
|
Posted - 2005.10.06 17:21:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Stepping Razor on 06/10/2005 17:22:05
Originally by: Maggot Would be great if you could configure the POS to fire on targets in order or your choice or randomly between certain types.
Problem with saying shuttles are an exploit is where do you draw the line. If a group brought 20 vigils and 20 battleships and fought against a badly designed POS is that an exploit?
Not to get in the middle of an RP folks argument, but the difference between shuttles and vigils is that the vigil is a good tech 1 combat frig. Admittedly it can't help kill the tower, but it can be argued its presence there is useful if a hostile fleet responds to the attack on the POS. The shuttles role was only to take advantage of the guns' stupidity.
I agree MUCH more sophisticated automatic fire control is due on a POS, including 1. automatically focussing fire of all guns, warp scramblers and webs 2. Automatically distributing EW on more than one target and 3. Being able to set by yourself how long you want your POS to stay on one target (if its still alive) before automatically switching to another target.
It might also be nice to be able to set them to prefer to kill folks with lower standing. So I can set an enemy corp to -9, but their know gang/war-leaders to -10 :)
Razor
|
Tharrn
|
Posted - 2005.10.06 17:39:00 -
[18]
With 20 BS attacking they could easily have tanked the few guns the POS had. In this case I was at first disappointed by the use of shuttles in the attack but the matter was settled in a good discussion elsewhere.
It is absolutely frustrating though game-mechanic wise to sit in the bubble and watch the AI cycle happily thus doing essentially no damage at all (all in all 5 shuttles and 3 frigs were destroyed). What I would fancy would be manual firing control where you either get a simple list of targets from which you choose or by assigning a weapons officer via the POS control menu who is then in a gang with the tower and prioritizes targets via the overview (tags).
|
zoolkhan
|
Posted - 2005.10.06 18:33:00 -
[19]
Originally by: James Lyrus Don't forget that POS guns, particularly things like artillery batteries, don't have a huge amount of ammo.
laserbullets? were talking about an amarr POS here.
regards, v.Adm. ZoolKhan; W're Ushra'Khan - we come for our people!
|
zoolkhan
|
Posted - 2005.10.06 18:48:00 -
[20]
Edited by: zoolkhan on 06/10/2005 18:49:37
Originally by: Tharrn With 20 BS attacking they could easily have tanked the few guns the POS had.
Exactly. And we knew it - hence we didnt really try to exploit.
What maggot said, reveals the key point of the strategy. However, giving away strategies is not my habit, you have to look it up yourself... read it again and so on..
For me personally that was the first siege action ever, and after investing hours into a bombardement, whisky and shipfitting it was disappointing to experience the for me unexpected "reinforced mode" which basically means:
"thats it guys, lets go home" and "they gonna refuel when you can do **** against it because of real life"
Well, isnt that wonderful? this tiny POS with three guns and no defense fleet was not destroyed by the largest fleet our alliance is able to assemble... and you complain about our shuttle tactics?
Ok, interesting question have arised in this thread but... could somebody drop a tear for the wasted whisky , time and all we wasted (ammo, sweat, adrenaline and finest shuttles) during this aparrantly sensless operation?
thank you :-)
regards, v.Adm. ZoolKhan; W're Ushra'Khan - we come for our people!
|
|
Zinjan
|
Posted - 2005.10.06 21:38:00 -
[21]
Well if POS is setup with just a webber or two it can easily take care of the shuttles.
|
Joshua Foiritain
|
Posted - 2005.10.06 23:21:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Tas Devil having shuttles in an attacking fleet is not an exploit... think missile batteries.... + you need pleople to fly each individual shuttle.... which also reduces the dmg output of the attcking fleet by the same proportion as you reduce the effectiveness of the POS defenses due to the shuttles being there...
using shuttles to attck a POS is the sillyest thing I have heard yet.... move on nothing to see here....
What about dropped 150 shuttles in space using indys? 3 Pilots could keep shipping in a LOT of shuttles and they would be marked as owned by the enemy corp and thus most likely be shot. ------------------
[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
The GoldenRatio
|
Posted - 2005.10.07 06:21:00 -
[23]
CCP decided using mass light drones to confuse POS guns is not fair so they are making POSes not target drones. Simple enough. But there is a difference between a drone and a shuttle. A shuttle is easier to hit (smalls can easily 1 shot a shuttle even if it is going max speed) AND a shuttle actually requires a real pilot, whereas 1 person can control 15 drones. If you are too stupid/ignorant to set up your POS to be able to deal with large targets as well as small, and your enemy exploits your weakness, more power to him.
Next people will saying attacking a dreadnaught with interceptors is an exploit.
The GoldenRatio > All. |
James Lyrus
|
Posted - 2005.10.07 08:38:00 -
[24]
Originally by: zoolkhan
Originally by: James Lyrus Don't forget that POS guns, particularly things like artillery batteries, don't have a huge amount of ammo.
laserbullets? were talking about an amarr POS here.
Point's lesser, but still stands - crystals degrade, and having a POS with no crystals'd make a much easier kill.
However, if it's of interest, you may want to key in 'gun' stats on the Tracking Calculator.
The best tracking guns, for their class, are lasers, however key in the stats anything larger than a 'small' turret, and you'll see that vs. a shuttle, it's odds of hitting are very low indeed. (And for a shuttle with a 500ms transverse, either large laser has <1% chance of hitting)
However, yu do still have the aspect of target saturation - if there's 20 turrets, and you give them 40 targets, of which 30 are shuttles, the probabiltiy of getting 2 firing at 1, is relatively low.
In order to just stop someone warping, you _need_ to get a scrambler on them, as well as enough firepower to kill them in the 30 seconds (I think it is) that it takes for the scrambler to pick a new target.
I don't know what the tower setup was, but the best way to 'beat' a tower is to overwhelm it with targets. If you do that, it's unable to direct enough 'killing power' at any one target, so you can in theory take it down with negligable losses. (And in this case, sacrificial shuttles 'tying up' a gun for 30 seconds is IMO a real edge to the attackers).
Only balancing view is that shuttles are 1 per pilot, where drones were multiple, and in any battle your limiting quantity is number of people. Investment Opportunity:
|
Taldin
|
Posted - 2005.10.07 09:56:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Taldin on 07/10/2005 09:57:51 Well if a small gun is like a 250mm then it will hit shuttles with np. Mwd ships not so easily.
However if you take into account on the guns for a pos are exactly twice what the smaller version are , with the exception of the range which a small rail and large rail have identical activation and optimal. You may as well setup 12 small long range and 12 short range.
More guns that 1 shot a small fast ship that will always nail larger ships. The only difference is the smaller guns track faster ;).
my 2 cp
Taldin
|
James Lyrus
|
Posted - 2005.10.07 10:52:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Taldin Edited by: Taldin on 07/10/2005 09:57:51 Well if a small gun is like a 250mm then it will hit shuttles with np. Mwd ships not so easily.
However if you take into account on the guns for a pos are exactly twice what the smaller version are , with the exception of the range which a small rail and large rail have identical activation and optimal. You may as well setup 12 small long range and 12 short range.
More guns that 1 shot a small fast ship that will always nail larger ships. The only difference is the smaller guns track faster ;).
my 2 cp
Taldin
Actually it's better than that. A small gun takes M ammo, and has tracking comparable to a 'cruiser sized' gun, but has a signature resolution of 40m. Which means it's great for putting the hurt on small ships :) Investment Opportunity:
|
Ghey Iislandur
|
Posted - 2005.10.07 14:11:00 -
[27]
Easiest way to deal with the tactic would be if POS could pod yer butt.
Then you wouldn't have large (ahem ... excuse me ... LAME ASS) fleets of unarmed shuttles to contend with.
Either that or code POS so that it always shoots the biggest target first - and pods last. ______________________________________________
Won't you give to the Minmatar Orphans of War Charities? With your generous donation of ore or isk, we can reunite a Minmatar slave with his family. |
Archbishop
|
Posted - 2005.10.07 14:26:00 -
[28]
Quote: "Problem with saying shuttles are an exploit is where do you draw the line. If a group brought 20 vigils and 20 battleships and fought against a badly designed POS is that an exploit?"
I would have to say no as they have some offensive capability. The drones can't fire within the bubble due to rang (can't get inside it) and the shuttles are just.... well.... shuttles.
Quote: "I agree MUCH more sophisticated automatic fire control is due on a POS, including 1. automatically focussing fire of all guns, warp scramblers and webs 2. Automatically distributing EW on more than one target and 3. Being able to set by yourself how long you want your POS to stay on one target (if its still alive) before automatically switching to another target."
This would be nice. Imagine a new Eve ship.... the COMMAND SHIP. The CS would be able to direct POS weapons fire from within the Bubble. The only thing is the ship would have to be within like 2500 of the control tower and would have no offensive capability but would be able to control the guns of the POS. A bit of dreaming there.
Quote: "Either that or code POS so that it always shoots the biggest target first - and pods last."
I like that. Then it also allows the new poor members of a seige group to participate and shoot up the POS (albeit not alot of damage). I think this would solve alot of issues. Then again you could park one Dreadnaught totally tanked in siege mode and draw all the firepower of the POS while the BS's take it down so not a perfect solution either.
I think the real answer is to fire at only Cruiser and higher level ships first cycling through them. That will allow frigate pilots to have some fun and participate while not totally diverting the AI firepower of the POS.
Archie
VISIT THE PIE HOMEPAGE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Justin Cody
|
Posted - 2005.10.07 14:29:00 -
[29]
Originally by: The GoldenRatio CCP decided using mass light drones to confuse POS guns is not fair so they are making POSes not target drones. Simple enough. But there is a difference between a drone and a shuttle. A shuttle is easier to hit (smalls can easily 1 shot a shuttle even if it is going max speed) AND a shuttle actually requires a real pilot, whereas 1 person can control 15 drones. If you are too stupid/ignorant to set up your POS to be able to deal with large targets as well as small, and your enemy exploits your weakness, more power to him.
Next people will saying attacking a dreadnaught with interceptors is an exploit.
you mean its not? OMGWTFBBQ I NEED MY I WIN BUTTON
joking....yeah you make a compelling point (which I already agree with though for different reasons)
"Ill armed and half starved, they were still desperate men, to whom danger had lost all fears: for what was death that they should shun it to cling to such a life as theirs?"--- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle |
Maggot
|
Posted - 2005.10.07 14:50:00 -
[30]
Quote: I think the real answer is to fire at only Cruiser and higher level ships first cycling through them. That will allow frigate pilots to have some fun and participate while not totally diverting the AI firepower of the POS.
I considered this also but it unfortunately it could be exploited far worse than a shuttle attack.
Simple solution - as now but attack all targets except shuttles and drones Complex solution - attack based on some user definable rule based system
I would warn however that the complex solution would allow for some major funt ups by POS builders - you know the old saying about giving someone enough rope to hang themselves.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |