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migwar
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Posted - 2005.09.30 09:23:00 -
[1]
I have an apoc BPc at PE 4, the blueprint is ME 26 i think. i have been mining for ages and looking at the requirements i cant see any profit at all, Even at PE5 the profit seems so small for the hassle.
My merlin BPO seems to have a higher profit % wise, Am i missing something?
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James Lyrus
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Posted - 2005.09.30 09:25:00 -
[2]
Originally by: migwar I have an apoc BPc at PE 4, the blueprint is ME 26 i think. i have been mining for ages and looking at the requirements i cant see any profit at all, Even at PE5 the profit seems so small for the hassle.
My merlin BPO seems to have a higher profit % wise, Am i missing something?
Take mineral costs, multiply by amount required. That's your base price of your Apoc.
If your price isn't 'right' then you have two options:
Don't produce
Move somewhere where the supply is lower.
People are often prepared to pay a few million extra to avoid having to cross multiple regions. So try selling them in 'less populated' regions.
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Village Person
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Posted - 2005.09.30 09:33:00 -
[3]
The actual cost of minerals is not what is listed in all the sell orders on the market. Its what you can actually get the minerals for.
Pyerite does not cost 8 isk for example.
So the actual profit on a battleship varies depending on what you think the mineral cost is.
......... Macho, macho man. |
migwar
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Posted - 2005.09.30 10:06:00 -
[4]
Surely you should be comparing the sell orders for minerals as that the price you could get for the minerals if you sold them instead of building with them?
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PriceScout
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Posted - 2005.09.30 11:17:00 -
[5]
I think that you can no longer make decent profit with BS. I don't think you can have a far better margin by moving your sell orders. On the other hand, it is easier make margin on less expansive items because where overpricing by 1 or 2M can be enough to make the pilots buy somewhere else, not many players will bother going elsewhere for less than 100K.
So find an item where your expected margin per sale is less than 100K and produce it. Of course it will take more time but in the long run you should make profit.
Anyway, producing needs a big loving from CCP. Unless you are lucky enough to have a rare tech II Bpo, you won't get very rich. |
Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2005.09.30 11:44:00 -
[6]
It goes without saying not to build and sell battleships if you would make more selling the minerals I think.
The percentage of profit is small, but it allows the conversion of large quantitys of minerals into isk and a (smallish) profit with fairly little extra hauling etc, Which has something to be said for it.
Sort of an final processing stage for bulk mining-based corps if you will, as oposed to something you can make a profession out of directly unfortunately. . ----- Apologies for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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migwar
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Posted - 2005.09.30 13:51:00 -
[7]
Thanks for replies,
All makes sense i suppose i do own a merlin BPO and the profit on that is around 100k they sell well too.
With the mins i stockpiled i think il just churn out these babies while i run missions.
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CelticKnight
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Posted - 2005.09.30 14:46:00 -
[8]
After about 12hrs (total) and about 35mil (for Noxium Zydrine + Megacite) i managed to build a raven... :)
Considering market for a raven is about 130mil~ .. :) im happy i made nearly a mill saving :)
Lesson. MINE the mins ya self :) it certainly reduces the price
Originally by: Oveur I can make 100 Trillion ISK with a single click.
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WhiteTiger
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Posted - 2005.09.30 17:01:00 -
[9]
Originally by: CelticKnight After about 12hrs (total) and about 35mil (for Noxium Zydrine + Megacite) i managed to build a raven... :)
Considering market for a raven is about 130mil~ .. :) im happy i made nearly a mill saving :)
Lesson. MINE the mins ya self :) it certainly reduces the price
130-35 = 95
95 / 12 = 7.92m isk/hr
Although that isn't a bad hourly rate for making isk, for anyone that is able to generate more isk/hr doing something other than mining.. mining is a bad idea.
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Drakos
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Posted - 2005.09.30 17:23:00 -
[10]
Originally by: CelticKnight After about 12hrs (total) and about 35mil (for Noxium Zydrine + Megacite) i managed to build a raven... :)
Considering market for a raven is about 130mil~ .. :) im happy i made nearly a mill saving :)
Lesson. MINE the mins ya self :) it certainly reduces the price
130mil for a raven? lol wts raven :)
btw this thread is on the wrong forum. --------
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Suncats Shadow
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Posted - 2005.09.30 17:41:00 -
[11]
Actually I know what you mean about the profit for time issue. I am 1.5 wks from heavy mining barge and already am using the modulated strip miner II's. With these and the other skills I have trained I am pulling around 950 ore every 3 mins. This will increase as I finish training up for the heavy barge and should top out around 1100-1200 ore every 3 mins. With this kind of mining yield I have not problem spending time mining for mins to do ship building with.
I am currently building and have built man haulers. Since I am doing my own mining, I can sell them at a very nice price and still make isk. Since I am in the game to play the game and hang with the corpies, isk/hr is really not an issue.
There are areas where some ships will sell better and pull in a better profit than other, you just need to find them.
Good luck with the building.
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migwar
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Posted - 2005.09.30 18:33:00 -
[12]
wrong forum how?
"this is also the discussion channel for manufacturing, mining and research"
If i have posted incorrectly i apologise
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Nathan Grey
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Posted - 2005.09.30 21:05:00 -
[13]
As migwar said, this is a decent forum to ask this at. Manufacturing really straddles both this and the Market Discussions forum and doesn't belong solely in either.
Look at both what the minerals are moving at (moving avg) and what you can sell them for. With the falling mineral prices in some regions, and module/ship/ammo prices relatively stable or rising, it's really a great time to be moving from mineral sales to manufacturing sales.
Do your market research before jumping in, however! Because this sounds like a classic example of insufficient prior research, where a producer figures "Hey, I'll build and sell this" and finds that the market is either not interested in what you're making which leads to depressed prices, or the market is oversupplied.
In short, look at the mineral values (buy/sell/avg), look at the market both for the immediate 1-2j area and the regional levels, and look at the propensity of buyers to move to where your ship is rather than someone else's. Economics in action.
PS: If the proposed manufacturing overall hits, we'll hear more about this.
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Delath
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Posted - 2005.10.02 11:59:00 -
[14]
Originally by: migwar Surely you should be comparing the sell orders for minerals as that the price you could get for the minerals if you sold them instead of building with them?
You should use the mineralprice that you think you can sell reasonable amount of minerals for in a reasonable time. In some cases it will coincide with buyorders (noone will buy your trit for 10k/u even if that's only sellprice), in others with sellorders (if it's priced a bit above high buyorders someone will buy it for immediate minerals if it's not a total backwater system), most often it will be in between. What's "reasonable" and thus exactly where the price is is up to you to figure out. As for small items vs big ones: yes there's a much bigger margin percentagewise on smaller ships (items are generally hard to sell since everyone has stacks of them as loot) but bigger stuff move more cash in one chunk. Small ships also sell in bigger quantities while there's ironically often harsher competition for the bigger ones. Basically it comes down to how much minerals/time/marketorders you have. Personally I go strictly by the percentages and thus tend to build smaller overlooked ships but I'm not really a fulltime builder either.
Saturday night, Oursulaert, 300+ people in system: Gibri > Any1 else have massive lag undocking? Pli Cate > no, Hammer hates you and is lagging your game on purpose |
Captain Rod
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Posted - 2005.10.02 17:58:00 -
[15]
This is a player driven market. I used to sell BSs for around 120-125 Mill and I made a profit above the mineral value.
Looking at the market at the moment it is extremely competitive and the builders are selling tier 2 BS for 104-107 million. A COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME in my opinion!
Just check the sell/buy orders for minerals and I guarantee if you wanted to purchase/sell all minerals needed to build from a nicely researched BPC you would be looking at around the 100 mill mark. Now if you are purchasing the BPC in the first place for 1-2 mill? You are making next to zero profit?
Even an owner of a BPO is surely only making around 4-5 mill per tier 2 BS?
Correct me if I'm wrong but as a player run market the characters selling this low are desperate or insane or even desperately insane
If the prices get any lower I'm gonna buy a BS or two and melt them down and sell the minerals at a profit. Don't always go for the quick sale. Be patient
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theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.10.02 21:36:00 -
[16]
This would be the famous player market, where 90% of the participants will sell items for less then mineral cost, thus ruining it for anyone who actually can do simple maths.
CCP need to flash a popup everytime someone sells below mineral cost "No, Stupid! Thats a waste of money".
Economics only work when the participants are rational. Most EVE players are not rational.
And I heard the noise of thunder. And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him |
Nathan Grey
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Posted - 2005.10.03 02:28:00 -
[17]
Originally by: theRaptor This would be the famous player market, where 90% of the participants will sell items for less then mineral cost, thus ruining it for anyone who actually can do simple maths.
CCP need to flash a popup everytime someone sells below mineral cost "No, Stupid! Thats a waste of money".
Economics only work when the participants are rational. Most EVE players are not rational.
Regretably, no, most Eve pilots don't seem to really care about being as efficient as possible with whatever they're running with. Then again, those pilots sometimes make the markets work -- such as with certain fuels, minerals, and common loot drop orders, or on the flip side, with the higher prices of non-Empire markets, where there are some places where people buy shuttles for what you can buy a shuttle BPO for. If not more.
There is, however, already a warning for selling something at a distinctly below-average market price, or buying something at a significantly above-average market price. Most players likely ignore it in their search for isk.
The market will probably favor the canny once the proposed slot overhaul kicks in, something that I can't wait for. Economies of scale 4tw. Specialized shipyards 4tw. Check the Dev Blogs.
In regards to suppliers driving prices of manufactured goods down and demand pushing mineral prices up, consider moving over a jump or two. Not every pilot flies in Jita, Oursalet, and Rens, they instead fly somewhere a few jumps out, a region over, or out in the boonies. Pick up your tent and move it a jump or two down the road, set up mineral buy orders, and put your gear out for sale somewhere else. If it's near a number of reasonably populated systems, or has its own traffic, you'll still get the sales if your goods are reasonably priced. I'm mining, manufacturing, and selling out of a system on an Empire-0.0 highway, 3j from Jita and Sobaseki, and able to turn over 10M/week from frigates, their fittings, and unsized modules, with prices comparable or oftentimes slightly (5-10%) higher than what I see in Sobaseki, and buy minerals for similiar prices -- slightly higher if I want it faster.
If you want to work the "famous player market", use your head. It pays off.
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Mirchuska
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Posted - 2005.10.04 04:09:00 -
[18]
Actually, i make a decent profit by setting up buy orders, building and selling ships. Its not a huge margin but the turnover is good and in order to run it you dont even really need to leave the station if the market is healthy. Even if you make 4-5m on a tier 2 battleship (slightly low, i might add), when you sell one or two a day its a healthy income for practically no input, leaving you to make money other ways too. It does need decent capital to run smoothly though or you could be waiting for your buy orders to fill back up for days.
You do get occasional problems where people undercut you because they are too stupid to price it correctly, but thats not exclusive to the ship building industry by any means. Percentage margins get a lot better than tier 2 battleships though, thats for sure. Compromising between all these factors is what makes your mini-industry work :)
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Megadon
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Posted - 2005.10.04 05:01:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Megadon on 04/10/2005 05:02:12 Everyone and their slave bought an BS BPO thinking they were going to get rich easy and now the market it flooded with BS's. The margins are gone unless you travel to the far reaches of the galaxy to peddle your stuff.
Also, most the people building and selling stuff can't use a calculator anyway
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Simon Illian
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Posted - 2005.10.04 07:26:00 -
[20]
ppl don't use the in-game calculator, maybe cause she was bugged ? --------------------------------------------------------- Originally by: ►Skellibjalla◄ I em onnly sefen yers old...
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smr 1965
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Posted - 2005.10.05 08:44:00 -
[21]
Originally by: theRaptor This would be the famous player market, where 90% of the participants will sell items for less then mineral cost, thus ruining it for anyone who actually can do simple maths.
CCP need to flash a popup everytime someone sells below mineral cost "No, Stupid! Thats a waste of money".
Economics only work when the participants are rational. Most EVE players are not rational.
Sounds just like the current POS market selling all Caldari and Gallente T2 Components |
Sonreir
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Posted - 2005.10.05 09:45:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Sonreir on 05/10/2005 09:46:03 There's no laws against monopolies in the world of EVE. If you have the cash, buy out the people selling too cheaply and re-sell their items at a higher cost. I do that exact thing in Solitude. Every now and again someone will put of Strip Miners 2s at a lower price than I sell them at and I make easy profit just by buying and reselling.
If you can't compete with the prices, buy them out and set the prices where you want them.
Now this may be hard for you guys in hub systems where there's 200 players selling 20 of each item in every system, but if you want to live there, you're going to have to deal with things like that.
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theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.10.05 12:01:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Sonreir There's no laws against monopolies in the world of EVE. If you have the cash, buy out the people selling too cheaply and re-sell their items at a higher cost. I do that exact thing in Solitude. Every now and again someone will put of Strip Miners 2s at a lower price than I sell them at and I make easy profit just by buying and reselling.
If you can't compete with the prices, buy them out and set the prices where you want them.
Now this may be hard for you guys in hub systems where there's 200 players selling 20 of each item in every system, but if you want to live there, you're going to have to deal with things like that.
That just doesn't work with T1, except in rare cases. As T1 BPO's are unlimited. You can do it with T2 and named loot to a degree because the supply is fairly limited.
The best way to make money as a builder is to find a minor hub and supply common items that aren't in stock. I was making some extra cash selling Moa's and Lead ammo in Nonni a few months ago. But it was mainly to get rid of the minerals I had stocked up from running agent missions. However once you start doing it in large quantities you are bound to attract competitors.
And I heard the noise of thunder. And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him |
Rodge
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Posted - 2005.10.05 12:48:00 -
[24]
Players in this game are rarely prepared to go long term on sales. So everyone keeps undercutting each other for the sake of a quick sale. A lot of people who live all their days in Empire don't factor in the mining into their calculations.
They mine all their own low end minerals, so from their point of view those minerals are now effectively "free".
So, they spend 35m on high end minerals, 1-2m for a BS BPC, build a Raven (for example) and sell it for 105m. Now, in their eyes, they've made:
105 - 35 - 2 = 68m profit!!!!
But they don't consider the time they've spent on mining the low end minerals, especially if it's newer players. They just want the thrill of selling a Battleship.
I bought an Apoc for 90m once from a guy in Empire (even though I couldn't fly it at the time), he was boasting about how much money he was making on the sale as he mined the minerals himself. I didn't bother to explain why he was the one losing out on the deal....
[ 2005.04.17 00:34:30 ] Nagilam > u better leave Rodge, u will not gank any1 else 2nite......
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gfldex
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Posted - 2005.10.05 15:22:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Rodge
105 - 35 - 2 = 68m profit!!!!
You are wrong here. This is a reward of 68M. If you buy all mins and sell it for more then those mins are worth and the BPC cost you _then_ you make a profit.
Even if you buy a BPO for 1BISK and spend 2.5M less on each BS you sell you start to make a profit _after_ 400 sold BS.
But you may get more out of your invested work time if you don't have to carry the mins around to sell them.
-- $ perl -n -e 'print "Stop blameing pirates! Oveur is the root of all evil!\n" if m/podkill|lost my ship|gank|gate camp|Verone/;'
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Wee Dave
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Posted - 2005.10.05 16:29:00 -
[26]
Most people buying a BS on the open market will be doing so to acquire their sole, or primary BS. They WILL shop around for the best deal. You get better results with small ships because a four month old player who thinks 'hey, I want a blackbird' will pay a little more to get it quickly. People wanting their first BS will not have that luxury since it is already a big investment.
There certainly are people who buy BSes regularly but those that do often have a privileged relationship with a particular seller, or if in a large corp, they will get it produced for them and pay base price.
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TIELKERON
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Posted - 2005.10.07 02:12:00 -
[27]
LOL , do this, ***** lvl3 and lvl4 agent kill missions, melt the junk loot weekly.. And you get lots of isk plus 1-2 battlesips made at 100% profit..simple
This post brought to you by "FLAMES ARE US"
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