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Angelique Duchemin
Serenity Prime Kraken.
492
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 16:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
It varies a lot from item to item. For example the hulk going from 80 million to 300 million in 4 years can hardly represent inflation as a whole but looking at everything. What do you think the yearly inflation is? We miss you Saede. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
889
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 16:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
It's essentially irrelevant. The value of goods adjusts based on the value of their input materials, which in turn adjust based on changes in supply and demand. If inflation factors into this at all it's a tiny effect that gets drowned out by the larger swings. Mynnna for CSM 8 |
Angelique Duchemin
Serenity Prime Kraken.
492
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 16:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
It's a good way to determine how much ISK a person losses per year by just sitting on the actual ISK rather than goods.
It's also relevant when making investments and loans. We miss you Saede. |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
877
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 17:11:00 -
[4] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:It varies a lot from item to item. For example the hulk going from 80 million to 300 million in 4 years can hardly represent inflation as a whole but looking at everything. What do you think the yearly inflation is? EyjoG will certainly give us up-to-date numbers at FF TEST alt - don't trust. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
889
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 17:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:It's a good way to determine how much ISK a person losses per year by just sitting on the actual ISK rather than goods.
It's also relevant when making investments and loans.
You're missing my point.
http://i.imgur.com/T1JItRa.png
That's a chart of the price indices in EVE, the most recent one available (which isn't very recent, unfortunately.) When EyjoG is talking about "inflation" at all, he's basing it on the purple line, the Consumer Price Index. I've taken and labeled this chart with various significant events that caused a large swing in one index or another, all of which is ultimately reflected in the CPI.
Because the effects of these supply/demand changes are so large and dramatic, it's difficult (if not impossible) to sort out the effects of "real" inflation on the prices of goods. And, because those supply/demand changes can move the CPI up just as easily as they can down, a person holding liquid isk could just as easily "gain" value as they could "lose" it.
That, in my mind, makes trying to discuss inflation - especially in terms of inflation due to expansion of the money supply or whatever - fairly pointless. Mynnna for CSM 8 |
Sabriz Adoudel
AWOXalypse
260
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 01:34:00 -
[6] - Quote
The PLEX/ISK exchange rate is IMO a measure of inflation. AWOXalypse is coming! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2898431 Buy shares: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=226618 An enemy is a friend you stab in the front. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
909
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 02:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:The PLEX/ISK exchange rate is IMO a measure of inflation.
I disagree. :) In general terms, my observation is that PLEX responds to availability of player income as evaluated by a few factors - how high that income is, how accessible it is (ie is it limited to WH only, nullsec only, anyone in highsec, as well as skill requirements), and how passive it is. The higher it is, the more accessible it is, and/or the more passive it is, and the larger the effect it will have on PLEX prices. PI, Incursions and the old FW system (button orbiting for hundreds of millions an hour) all provide examples of this.
Now, like the CPI, PLEX prices may be susceptible to "normal" inflationary pressures as well, it's just these other price factors drown them out so much that it's hard to separate. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1326
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 16:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
If anyone wants to look at markets which haven't changed significantly from around a year ago, just look at the common T2 modules.
Sure, there's been seasonal variation (player activity levels affect prices, of course), but all in all, they're not /that/ different.
Of course, the prices of these include a large chunk of player time. The only thing with true value in the game. Steve Ronuken for CSM 8 Handy tools and SDE conversions Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
230
|
Posted - 2013.04.24 18:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
It would be interesting to plot the player inflation vs. money supply vs. [take your pick of market indicators]. I'm curious how much the average ISK/character has increased as the ultra-rich hoard and the new players skill up/ISK up. |
Angelique Duchemin
Serenity Prime Kraken.
508
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 05:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
What kind of money sinks do we have in the game to help counter inflation?
Ship repair is a minor one.... Clones I suppose. The insurance system is a real villain because you lose a ship that was built using real goods and the game reimburses you with ISK created out of thin air.
A lot of goods and skill books on the market are sold by NPCs as well aren't they? We miss you Saede. |
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Sabriz Adoudel
AWOXalypse
262
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Posted - 2013.04.25 12:06:00 -
[11] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:What kind of money sinks do we have in the game to help counter inflation?
Ship repair is a minor one.... Clones I suppose. The insurance system is a real villain because you lose a ship that was built using real goods and the game reimburses you with ISK created out of thin air.
A lot of goods and skill books on the market are sold by NPCs as well aren't they?
Loyalty point stores are an ISK sink of note, as are market taxes. AWOXalypse is coming! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2898431 Buy shares: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=226618 An enemy is a friend you stab in the front. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
922
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 13:59:00 -
[12] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:What kind of money sinks do we have in the game to help counter inflation?
Ship repair is a minor one.... Clones I suppose. The insurance system is a real villain because you lose a ship that was built using real goods and the game reimburses you with ISK created out of thin air.
A lot of goods and skill books on the market are sold by NPCs as well aren't they?
Insurance is minor. The net faucet is perhaps a trillion isk or so, which pales in comparison to bounties (20-30T/mo).
http://blog.beyondreality.se/ISK-faucets-sinks has a decent roundup of sinks and faucets. It's old info, but there isn't anything really new lately. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Obunagawe
4
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Posted - 2013.04.27 17:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
OllieNorth wrote:It would be interesting to plot the player inflation vs. money supply vs. [take your pick of market indicators]. I'm curious how much the average ISK/character has increased as the ultra-rich hoard and the new players skill up/ISK up.
Gap is getting absolutely ridiculous. Every person I speak to has at least one Titan and a double-figure number of alts and isk well up in the hundreds of bils, OR they have exactly **** all. |
Tatminator
Justice Legion. Jokers.
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.02 23:49:00 -
[14] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Angelique Duchemin wrote:What kind of money sinks do we have in the game to help counter inflation?
Ship repair is a minor one.... Clones I suppose. The insurance system is a real villain because you lose a ship that was built using real goods and the game reimburses you with ISK created out of thin air.
A lot of goods and skill books on the market are sold by NPCs as well aren't they? Insurance is minor. The net faucet is perhaps a trillion isk or so, which pales in comparison to bounties (20-30T/mo). http://blog.beyondreality.se/ISK-faucets-sinks has a decent roundup of sinks and faucets. It's old info, but there isn't anything really new lately.
Insurance by no means is counter-inflation thing. It in fact increases ability of pilots to buy new ships after loss, which means that there're are more incentives for ore to be mined. This is pro-inflation thing (it adds to isk pool).
Bounties are a bit of neither if I know mechanics right. If i'm correct bounties are paid for by players so it's really only change of hands rather than increase or decrease in pool. |
Sola Mercury
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
53
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 10:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tatminator wrote:[quote=mynnna]
Bounties are a bit of neither if I know mechanics right. If i'm correct bounties are paid for by players so it's really only change of hands rather than increase or decrease in pool.
She/he speaks about bountys players collect by killing red crosses.
I think the most anti-inflationary effect comes from massive ISK piles sitting unused in old players wallets. |
MacLuven
EL Bernays School of Strategic Communication
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 06:02:00 -
[16] - Quote
It's been a while since I made this but it wouldn't be hard to update. After spending approximately 15 seconds looking at prices (I just resubbed today), it seems the Mineral Price Index has continued to rise, which would push "inflation" along depending on the Price Indexes you choose to look at. The MPI's probably gone up, but I doubt any Index that uses Tech 2 or Tech 3 as the major component has changed much.
Monthly Eve Inflation Rate Graph (CPI, Lifetime to Feb2012)
This is an easy graph to create if DrEyjoG and the Econ guys are still providing the data. |
mechtech
Ice Liberation Army
374
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 06:31:00 -
[17] - Quote
MacLuven wrote:It's been a while since I made this but it wouldn't be hard to update. After spending approximately 15 seconds looking at prices (I just resubbed today), it seems the Mineral Price Index has continued to rise, which would push "inflation" along depending on the Price Indexes you choose to look at. The MPI's probably gone up, but I doubt any Index that uses Tech 2 or Tech 3 as the major component has changed much. Monthly Eve Inflation Rate Graph (CPI, Lifetime to Feb2012)This is an easy graph to create if DrEyjoG and the Econ guys are still providing the data.
Eh, that's BS. Maybe it's true from a purely monetary standpoint, but when I started I remember barely being able to afford a T2 frigate after a month of play, and a battleship was still a big deal that I didn't acquire for months.
In the early days, 1 billion isk had about as much weight as 100 billion has now. To be honest, it's starting to feel like you need to have 1 trillion to be a rich player these days. 4 years ago, 100 billion was almost unimaginable, but it's honestly not that large a sum now. There are T2 BPOs that go for 400 billion isk now... these BPOs would go for 40 billion isk max in the first few years that they entered the game. My Guardian-Vexors have gone from a value of 20-30B when I bought them to about 100B now, even though unique ships are a far more common thing with the AT ships and the constant stream of special edition ships.
I think the pure numbers, and what people mean when they say "inflation" can be quite different. |
Ruvin
119
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 07:35:00 -
[18] - Quote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ie9V2P5El0E Opportunities multiply as they are seized. |
Drachiel
Mercury LLC
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 01:31:00 -
[19] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:The PLEX/ISK exchange rate is IMO a measure of inflation.
I think it's a better measure than any other item, but you also have to take factors like subscriber base makeup (vets vs rookies) and number of uses for PLEX (resculpt, dual training, etc inherently adds value) into account.
I'd say the only notable inflation in EVE was Incursiongate. |
Adunh Slavy
794
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 03:23:00 -
[20] - Quote
Monetary inflation in Eve has been absolutely enormous, price inflation has been tame in comparison. Fortunately for Eve, most of the monetary inflation is also countered by increases in productivity, which would explain a considerable portion of the disconnect.
The disconnect can be further explained by the main ISK faucet in Eve, shooting rats. That activity produces more than just ISK. Much of what is produced by rat shooting can be converted to the base commodities of minerals, this pushes prices downwards. Shoot 10 mil worth of rats, and you also probably end up with about 10 mill worth of other stuff. Personally, I think this is bad because it harms the division of labor, something Eve lacks. (I suspect Doc E. doesn't mind it much however, since as a 'central banker' relative price stability is a good thing.)
If rats stopped dropping so much stuff, many prices would be allowed to meet monetary inflation, perhaps the point where shooting rats becomes much less attractive than gathering of base commodities. Monetary inflation would slow and become regulated by the market and player preferences instead of regulated by CCP.
Anyway, back to the main question. Monetary inflation was on the order of something like 13,000% a couple of years ago, price inflation was modest for the baskets CCP used in its measures. |
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Idol1
IGI Purchasing
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 17:42:00 -
[21] - Quote
You have to look back thru all the old expansions to see how many more ways isk is coming into the game. Wormhole products sold to npc vendor, complexes, missions (along with higher level missions thus higher paying) ect... and compare that to how many ways isk is going out of circulation.
Shouldn't be too hard for someone with a good knowledge of the game to do. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
4070
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 18:02:00 -
[22] - Quote
In the Fanfest panel, Dr. Ejyo shown that inflation is not a big concern nor it's that huge or relevant as people love to say.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
MacLuven
EL Bernays School of Strategic Communication
13
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 15:14:00 -
[23] - Quote
mechtech wrote:Eh, that's BS. Maybe it's true from a purely monetary standpoint, but when I started I remember barely being able to afford a T2 frigate after a month of play, and a battleship was still a big deal that I didn't acquire for months.
Sorry, in what way is it BS? You're talking about your personal wealth as a way of discussion inflation in the Eve economy.
Quote:I think the pure numbers, and what people mean when they say "inflation" can be quite different.
I think the problem is that a lot of people are working off of a shaky definition of "inflation" - they use it in reference to any rise in price of anything for any reason, which is, obviously, the incorrect use of the word. |
Anastasia Aleksandra
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 15:44:00 -
[24] - Quote
I don't have much of an education in economics but...is it even possible for inflation to be a risk at all?
- Are there any risks to ISK becoming a secondary or less-preferred currency? To what?
- Also, is there a finite amount of ISK in the game? If not, there's no real risk of monetary inflation since the quantity of currency in the game would never decrease.
- There's no central bank in the game to buy-back ISK, is there?
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Angelique Duchemin
Serenity Prime Kraken.
566
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 15:49:00 -
[25] - Quote
Anastasia Aleksandra wrote:I don't have much of an education in economics but...is it even possible for inflation to be a risk at all?
- Are there any risks to ISK becoming a secondary or less-preferred currency? To what?
- Also, is there a finite amount of ISK in the game? If not, there's no real risk of monetary inflation since the quantity of currency in the game would never decrease.
- There's no central bank in the game to buy-back ISK, is there?
You mean deflation?
The amount of ISK in circulation increases constantly while the number of goods and people remains stable.
We miss you Saede. |
Anastasia Aleksandra
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 15:56:00 -
[26] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:Anastasia Aleksandra wrote:I don't have much of an education in economics but...is it even possible for inflation to be a risk at all?
- Are there any risks to ISK becoming a secondary or less-preferred currency? To what?
- Also, is there a finite amount of ISK in the game? If not, there's no real risk of monetary inflation since the quantity of currency in the game would never decrease.
- There's no central bank in the game to buy-back ISK, is there?
You mean deflation? The amount of ISK in circulation increases constantly while the number of goods and people remains stable.
Yes. Given an infinitely increasing money supply and a constant number of goods and people, what factors in EVE's economy could lead to an unreasonable rate of inflation? |
Angelique Duchemin
Serenity Prime Kraken.
566
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 16:08:00 -
[27] - Quote
Anastasia Aleksandra wrote:Angelique Duchemin wrote:Anastasia Aleksandra wrote:I don't have much of an education in economics but...is it even possible for inflation to be a risk at all?
- Are there any risks to ISK becoming a secondary or less-preferred currency? To what?
- Also, is there a finite amount of ISK in the game? If not, there's no real risk of monetary inflation since the quantity of currency in the game would never decrease.
- There's no central bank in the game to buy-back ISK, is there?
You mean deflation? The amount of ISK in circulation increases constantly while the number of goods and people remains stable. Yes. Given an infinitely increasing money supply and a constant number of goods and people, what factors in EVE's economy could lead to an unreasonable rate of inflation?
For example ships built from pure materials that are then insured and when destroyed a huge portion of their value is drawn out of thin air to replace them. We miss you Saede. |
Anastasia Aleksandra
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 16:31:00 -
[28] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:Anastasia Aleksandra wrote:Angelique Duchemin wrote:Anastasia Aleksandra wrote:I don't have much of an education in economics but...is it even possible for inflation to be a risk at all?
- Are there any risks to ISK becoming a secondary or less-preferred currency? To what?
- Also, is there a finite amount of ISK in the game? If not, there's no real risk of monetary inflation since the quantity of currency in the game would never decrease.
- There's no central bank in the game to buy-back ISK, is there?
You mean deflation? The amount of ISK in circulation increases constantly while the number of goods and people remains stable. Yes. Given an infinitely increasing money supply and a constant number of goods and people, what factors in EVE's economy could lead to an unreasonable rate of inflation? For example ships built from pure materials that are then insured and when destroyed a huge portion of their value is drawn out of thin air to replace them.
Maybe. That's a good example of insurance fraud but I don't see how that would unreasonably drive up the average market price of goods.
For the average market price of goods to increase, a seller must make a conscious decision to increase the price at which their goods are sold. If CCP were to gift every user $100,000,000 ISK but no sellers increased their prices, there would be no affect to the average market price of goods. Also, given the hypothetical situation above, if a single seller did increase their prices, they would have be a seller who was able to influence the market to meet their prices - other sellers could always undercut and drive the average market price of goods right back down.
The only thing that I can think of that would result in unreasonable inflation would be a radical decrease in the supply of a critical good. |
Angelique Duchemin
Serenity Prime Kraken.
566
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 16:37:00 -
[29] - Quote
When people have more to spend they spend more. Any increase in ISK will effect the prices as a whole unless someone just sits on the ISK.
We miss you Saede. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1869
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 17:32:00 -
[30] - Quote
Sola Mercury wrote:Tatminator wrote:[quote=mynnna]
Bounties are a bit of neither if I know mechanics right. If i'm correct bounties are paid for by players so it's really only change of hands rather than increase or decrease in pool. She/he speaks about bountys players collect by killing red crosses. I think the most anti-inflationary effect comes from massive ISK piles sitting unused in old players wallets. CCP's economics people have said many times that its not the total ISK in the game that drives inflation, but the velocity of money. That is how fast people spend it. So yes, large quantities of ISK sitting doing nothing do control inflation.
Based on the plot linked near the top of this thread, we have actually had on average deflation over the lifetime of the game. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
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