EVE Search - [Data Collection - Highsec] I want to hear your words, post them here!

Temba Ronin wrote:

Lord Zim wrote:

Um. Ok, you're either changing what you're arguing, or you're awful at elucidating what it is that you're actually arguing, because what I thought you were arguing was how PLEXes (and by extension people who use them to keep their accounts up and running) were costing CCP money. Now you're saying that what you really meant was that f.ex shatteredcrystal is getting the 60 day GTCs for less than $35 and selling them on for $35, so obviously CCP is losing money?

There's a few things you're not taking into account when making this assertation, however, and that's the fact that the GTCs CCP are selling are physical items that are sent to you via post. This costs money, which means that while CCP is getting $35 in, the end result is less. Shatteredcrystal probably purchase these in bulk, and as such probably gets a discount. They scan it in, put it in a database, and waits for people who needs a GTC to purchase one from them. It's sent to the customer via email, which doesn't cost much. Shatteredcrystal wins, CCP wins.

In fact, CCP probably wins for multiple reasons: when you can get the GTC within half an hour (or less) after you've ordered it, you're more inclined to actually buy it, than if you have to buy it and wait a few days for it to arrive in your physical mailbox. So the velocity of the GTCs is higher.

I admit to sometimes being awful at how clearly i may say things, that quickly gets multiplied when someone is trying to protect their tearful leader. They attack a comment that is clearly factual because it put their icon in a poor light.

I believe the business model that best supports the long term viability of CCP is what should be advocated by players who voluntarily stepped up to accept elected titles to work on behalf of the "greater good of the greater player base" to do less is shortsighted destructiveness.

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Velicitia Open Designs 82	Posted - 2011.11.10 18:23:00 - [181] - Quote Lord Zim wrote: Actually, I just checked. I pay $15/mo for my month to month subscription, and CCP sells 60 day timecodes for $35. ^ This ... PLEX DO NOT LOSE CCP MONEY. I sub, yearly ... $10 per month (give or take). You use PLEX ... $17.50 per month Who's making CCP more ISK per month, hmm? look, don't even bother saying that it costs anywhere near $7.50 a month for them to keep the PLEX RNG running...
Temba Ronin Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 21	Posted - 2011.11.10 18:33:00 - [182] - Quote Velicitia wrote: Lord Zim wrote: Actually, I just checked. I pay $15/mo for my month to month subscription, and CCP sells 60 day timecodes for $35. ^ This ... PLEX DO NOT LOSE CCP MONEY. I sub, yearly ... $10 per month (give or take). You use PLEX ... $17.50 per month Who's making CCP more ISK per month, hmm? look, don't even bother saying that it costs anywhere near $7.50 a month for them to keep the PLEX RNG running... Are you saying that only CCP sells plex? This is not true. Online merchants legally sell plex. Do you know how much they get to keep and how much they have to pay to CCP to get the plex to sell? Are you sure CCP has a flat rate that they charge all resellers of plex? Regardless of the volume of their sales? Of course you don't know. So you sit in front of your keyboard tapping in your opinion and pretend they are facts. Good luck with that.
Temba Ronin Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 21	Posted - 2011.11.10 18:38:00 - [183] - Quote Lord Zim wrote: Actually, I just checked. I pay $15/mo for my month to month subscription, and CCP sells 60 day timecodes for $35. ^^^^^^^^^^^^ You prove my point. Company direct to ---> consumer = maximum profit! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Is it really that hard to understand?
Temba Ronin Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 21	Posted - 2011.11.10 18:55:00 - [184] - Quote I came to EVE from a retail box product in a game store chain. The product cost $14.99 US dollars. Out of that $14.99 CCP had to pay for production, shipping, and the retail merchants profit. If i had bought directly from EVE online they would have had all the costs i just listed eliminated and made MORE profit. But in business the concept of loss leaders & discounts work, did CCP make MAXIMUM profits on that first sale? No they did not. They traded that short term profit for the chance to make a long term consumer out of a new customer. In my case it was a good investment on their part. I can't tell you how long i'll have to stay a subscriber even at the lowest annual rate for CCP to be fully reimbursed for the related costs to attract new players but i would guess they have a business MODEL that does. Because that is the way successful businesses operate. They know their costs within a time frame and then project what sales goals over that time frame will get them to the profit point they have targeted.
Lord Zim Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 115	Posted - 2011.11.10 19:42:00 - [185] - Quote Um. Ok, you're either changing what you're arguing, or you're awful at elucidating what it is that you're actually arguing, because what I thought you were arguing was how PLEXes (and by extension people who use them to keep their accounts up and running) were costing CCP money. Now you're saying that what you really meant was that f.ex shatteredcrystal is getting the 60 day GTCs for less than $35 and selling them on for $35, so obviously CCP is losing money? There's a few things you're not taking into account when making this assertation, however, and that's the fact that the GTCs CCP are selling are physical items that are sent to you via post. This costs money, which means that while CCP is getting $35 in, the end result is less. Shatteredcrystal probably purchase these in bulk, and as such probably gets a discount. They scan it in, put it in a database, and waits for people who needs a GTC to purchase one from them. It's sent to the customer via email, which doesn't cost much. Shatteredcrystal wins, CCP wins. In fact, CCP probably wins for multiple reasons: when you can get the GTC within half an hour (or less) after you've ordered it, you're more inclined to actually buy it, than if you have to buy it and wait a few days for it to arrive in your physical mailbox. So the velocity of the GTCs is higher.
Temba Ronin Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 21	Posted - 2011.11.10 19:51:00 - [186] - Quote Lord Zim wrote: Um. Ok, you're either changing what you're arguing, or you're awful at elucidating what it is that you're actually arguing, because what I thought you were arguing was how PLEXes (and by extension people who use them to keep their accounts up and running) were costing CCP money. Now you're saying that what you really meant was that f.ex shatteredcrystal is getting the 60 day GTCs for less than $35 and selling them on for $35, so obviously CCP is losing money? There's a few things you're not taking into account when making this assertation, however, and that's the fact that the GTCs CCP are selling are physical items that are sent to you via post. This costs money, which means that while CCP is getting $35 in, the end result is less. Shatteredcrystal probably purchase these in bulk, and as such probably gets a discount. They scan it in, put it in a database, and waits for people who needs a GTC to purchase one from them. It's sent to the customer via email, which doesn't cost much. Shatteredcrystal wins, CCP wins. In fact, CCP probably wins for multiple reasons: when you can get the GTC within half an hour (or less) after you've ordered it, you're more inclined to actually buy it, than if you have to buy it and wait a few days for it to arrive in your physical mailbox. So the velocity of the GTCs is higher. I admit to sometimes being awful at how clearly i may say things, that quickly gets multiplied when someone is trying to protect their tearful leader. They attack a comment that is clearly factual because it put their icon in a poor light. I believe the business model that best supports the long term viability of CCP is what should be advocated by players who voluntarily stepped up to accept elected titles to work on behalf of the "greater good of the greater player base" to do less is shortsighted destructiveness.
Lord Zim Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 116	Posted - 2011.11.10 20:20:00 - [187] - Quote Temba Ronin wrote: They attack a comment that is clearly factual because it put their icon in a poor light. Pray tell, which comment have I "attacked" which is clearly factual?
Velicitia Open Designs 83	Posted - 2011.11.10 20:43:00 - [188] - Quote Temba Ronin wrote: Lord Zim wrote: Um. Ok, you're either changing what you're arguing, or you're awful at elucidating what it is that you're actually arguing, because what I thought you were arguing was how PLEXes (and by extension people who use them to keep their accounts up and running) were costing CCP money. Now you're saying that what you really meant was that f.ex shatteredcrystal is getting the 60 day GTCs for less than $35 and selling them on for $35, so obviously CCP is losing money? There's a few things you're not taking into account when making this assertation, however, and that's the fact that the GTCs CCP are selling are physical items that are sent to you via post. This costs money, which means that while CCP is getting $35 in, the end result is less. Shatteredcrystal probably purchase these in bulk, and as such probably gets a discount. They scan it in, put it in a database, and waits for people who needs a GTC to purchase one from them. It's sent to the customer via email, which doesn't cost much. Shatteredcrystal wins, CCP wins. In fact, CCP probably wins for multiple reasons: when you can get the GTC within half an hour (or less) after you've ordered it, you're more inclined to actually buy it, than if you have to buy it and wait a few days for it to arrive in your physical mailbox. So the velocity of the GTCs is higher. I admit to sometimes being awful at how clearly i may say things, that quickly gets multiplied when someone is trying to protect their tearful leader. They attack a comment that is clearly factual because it put their icon in a poor light. I believe the business model that best supports the long term viability of CCP is what should be advocated by players who voluntarily stepped up to accept elected titles to work on behalf of the "greater good of the greater player base" to do less is shortsighted destructiveness. OK, so back to square 1 ... CCP does not "lose" money on selling GTC as compared to a sub. <-- we all agree on this apparently. GTC have an opportunity cost associated with them for CCP -- sell them to us poor slobs at $35 per, or sell them to e.g. shatteredcrystal for say $27,50 per (who then sell them to us at $35 per). NOW, we're assuming it's a "I sell to you, you sell to the players" relationship between CCP and Shattered Crystal et al., and not a "you're just getting a portal to our RNG, and we'll pay you $n per month based on how many GTC you sell" Since neither of the parties (you, me, other posters) has access to the volume sold from one source or the other (or the sales model), we can assume that CCP makes up for the differences between direct sales (which they do) and selling through resellers via sheer volume sold at the other retail outlets. If they didn't, then they probably would encourage buying from them directly rather than through the likes of shattered crystal. Box sets (like you bought) are simply another avenue for them to get people hooked so they start paying their $10 - $15 per month, and may seriously just be a break-even product, assuming a certain number of accounts sub that month...
Temba Ronin Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 21	Posted - 2011.11.10 20:45:00 - [189] - Quote Lord Zim wrote: Temba Ronin wrote: They attack a comment that is clearly factual because it put their icon in a poor light. Pray tell, which comment have I "attacked" which is clearly factual? Prey tell? Isn't that what forum tears are made of! lol I was not reflecting on your comments Zim. Even if i don't agree with you, you have demonstrated the willingness to follow a discussion to a conclusion.
Roonia Divine Power. Cascade Imminent 4	Posted - 2011.11.14 01:37:00 - [190] - Quote I would like to see insurance voided if you are killed by Concord and a bit changed. What insurance company in their right mind would pay for you to engage in criminal activity. Essentially, this is what insurance for suicides is doing, financing your criminal activities further buy refunding part or all of your ship cost. Another change I would like to see is the full or nearly full insurance for T2 mining barges, Haulers. The only drawback to this would be halfpay if you are killed in null sec space.

Obsidian Hawk RONA Corporation RONA Directorate 237	Posted - 2011.11.14 02:12:00 - [191] - Quote how is any of this talk about GTC and subscription prices relevant to high sec?
Lord Zim Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 135	Posted - 2011.11.14 02:16:00 - [192] - Quote Temba Ronin brought in the fact that there are people using plex to play, and argued that it was losing CCP money. vOv
Jenn Makanen Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 58	Posted - 2011.11.14 12:40:00 - [193] - Quote Roonia wrote: I would like to see insurance voided if you are killed by Concord and a bit changed. What insurance company in their right mind would pay for you to engage in criminal activity. Essentially, this is what insurance for suicides is doing, financing your criminal activities further buy refunding part or all of your ship cost. Another change I would like to see is the full or nearly full insurance for T2 mining barges, Haulers. The only drawback to this would be halfpay if you are killed in null sec space. This is currently on SiSi.
Jack Carrigan Order of the Shadow The Revenant Order 212	Posted - 2011.11.14 16:30:00 - [194] - Quote I'm thinking something should be done to remedy the alarming rate at which the high-sec economy is taking a dive, mainly on the T2 end. And not to mention, the PLEX market has become ridiculous. Not that it effects me, as I pay for my account on a year-to-year basis, but for some who are trying to pay for their gaming by PLEX, it's becoming difficult if not nigh-impossible. "War is not measured in terms of who wins or loses, who is right or wrong.-a It is measured in terms of who survives."
Roonia Divine Power. Cascade Imminent 4	Posted - 2011.11.14 19:47:00 - [195] - Quote Jack Carrigan wrote: I'm thinking something should be done to remedy the alarming rate at which the high-sec economy is taking a dive, mainly on the T2 end. And not to mention, the PLEX market has become ridiculous. Not that it effects me, as I pay for my account on a year-to-year basis, but for some who are trying to pay for their gaming by PLEX, it's becoming difficult if not nigh-impossible. I agree, I brought this up a few months ago about some kind of regulation system to prevent market tank and huge market spikes. Usually these happen because of 1 or 2 people with a lot of isk who can do whatever they want with the market, at the expense of everyone else. The EVE market is not a simulation of the real market, its actually far from it. The spikes and troughs of the EVE market are not demand or supply driven, but rather driven by ignorance and manipulation. Nuff about that though. I have a few suggestions on how to fix this but for a different thread. The plex thing unfortunately affects a whole lot of people's ability to play the game.
Nick Bison Bison Industrial Inc Thundering Herd 2	Posted - 2011.11.15 02:24:00 - [196] - Quote Well, looks like this thread has gotten completely off topic and is probably unrecoverable. So, with that in mind, Vile Rat, has this given you any pearls to work with or what?
Don Solette ZiiP Dominion 19	Posted - 2011.11.15 03:51:00 - [197] - Quote one annoying thing as others have mentioned is that POS in high sec can take a LOT of work just to get the standings to put it up.. then for whatever reason if you have to move your corp to another place, you get to start all over again. I don't know much about how POS work in terms of servicing one but do you think it's possible that perhaps some skills or a career could be made out of POS work somehow.. almost like a POS mechanic or something.. a career that perhaps if you went along that path would make it also easier to install a POS for your corp etc. Maybe a career at going around setting up POSes for people and maintaining them via contract of some sort
Temba Ronin 24	Posted - 2011.11.15 18:09:00 - [198] - Quote CSM member Vile Rat you are offering to review ideas from players of EVE that might lead to what you called your vision GG#My vision: I want to see a legitimate career path for those who want to live in empire and enjoy Eve-online. I want to see empire activities iterated upon properly and I want there to be a plentiful array of entertainment options available for those who want to make their empire in empire, and not lowsec/nullsec.GG%. I have given that some thought and would like to put forth the idea that players with significantly high standings with a particular empire be allowed to place a full blown POS that rivals the NPC stations in ANY system in Empire space that does not currently have a NPC station, a high sec corporate outpost. In the hyper-capitalistic market that is New Eden it seems that players and the micro-transactional economy they represent, must now directly compete with the NPC stations to take the next logical step. Yes it should be expensive, no it should not be so much so that it is unprofitable. The corporation/ alliance setting up the high sec outpost should be allowed to implement the system upgrade mechanics of Sov to make their system a more attractive place to tenants. Additionally the access to the outpost itself should be controlled by the corp/ alliance that placed it there, but the access to the system would remain unrestricted. Concord would of course have a very limited specific role in a player controlled high sec system that would be limited to the jump gates to curtail contraband and enemies to their empire and to strictly enforce no gate camping. The system internally would or could be extremely dangerous but transit thru it should remain safe. The controlling corp/ alliance would be responsible to react to control and define criminal activity in their system. These Empire corp controlled systems would of course be a prime target for the Sansha and they should make frequent attempts to capture the population. PI and Moon mining are very similar, a high sec improvement would be to allow more then 1 entity to mine a moon as is currently possible in PI. Additionally moon mining needs to be implemented in sec systems greater then 0.3. To preserve and improve the reward for all those willing to risk low sec moon mining the occurrence of high value ore must be significantly increased and limited to low sec and null space. In the Dust514 implementation it would improve profitability if ground forces could capture PI and Moon Mining facilities intact and/ or have the ability to repair damaged facilities. Some of my thoughts on enabling the creation of corporate empires in high sec Empire space.
Velicitia Open Designs 94	Posted - 2011.11.15 19:01:00 - [199] - Quote Temba Ronin wrote: CSM member Vile Rat you are offering to review ideas from players of EVE that might lead to what you called your vision GG#My vision: I want to see a legitimate career path for those who want to live in empire and enjoy Eve-online. I want to see empire activities iterated upon properly and I want there to be a plentiful array of entertainment options available for those who want to make their empire in empire, and not lowsec/nullsec.GG%. I have given that some thought and would like to put forth the idea that players with significantly high standings with a particular empire be allowed to place a full blown POS that rivals the NPC stations in ANY system in Empire space that does not currently have a NPC station, a high sec corporate outpost. In the hyper-capitalistic market that is New Eden it seems that players and the micro-transactional economy they represent, must now directly compete with the NPC stations to take the next logical step. Yes it should be expensive, no it should not be so much so that it is unprofitable. 30-40 billion ought to do it, right? and "no" to this being allowed anywhere near hisec. Lowsec might be workable, but it's touchy there too...
Vile rat GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 600	Posted - 2011.11.16 12:03:00 - [200] - Quote Nick Bison wrote: Well, looks like this thread has gotten completely off topic and is probably unrecoverable. So, with that in mind, Vile Rat, has this given you any pearls to work with or what? While CCP guys are reading this thread and are taking down ideas, I'm going to harvest this thread for good ideas to introduce to the conversation we have at the next summit. Some ideas might be utterly dumb but parts of them might be cool and work well when put with other stuff so it's all useful, even the bad ones. I'm taking down notes and paraphrasing a lot of this and hope to make some good headway this next month. Keep posting ideas! But yea GTC chat would be better placed in a different thread.

Raine Castle Carebear Pacifists 0	Posted - 2011.11.16 19:43:00 - [201] - Quote AS with most folk who have posted here there are some niggles like setting up multiple research and manufacturing jobs,maybe find some way of automating them.
E man Industries SeaChell Productions 131	Posted - 2011.11.16 20:16:00 - [202] - Quote level 4 missions are boring. mind numbling boring. some dynamic missions with a real challenge and a better ai would maybe make them somewhat intresting. Also long term goals and group missions are restricted to WH space or incursions. Higher level missions that can be completed in a short time maybe even with a group would be fun. Not asking for more isk per hour...just something intresting. We need more to do, not more to wear. Let me know when-aCCP has decent content a casual player can access in a 1-2h play period that is actually fun and contributes to long term personal and corp goals.
Jack Carrigan Order of the Shadow The Revenant Order 221	Posted - 2011.11.17 00:20:00 - [203] - Quote Recently my Alliance ran into the following issue: - Corp A sets up R&D POS with Alliance lab usage rights. - Corp B has a member that wanted to Copy BPOs. - Under current restrictions, the member of Corp B was unable to use Corp A's labs to copy BPOs, however, research for Material/Time Efficiency could be conducted without a problem. What I suggest is that if a Corp within an Alliance sets up a POS for Alliance usage, the members of the Alliance should be able to use copy slots, and in a pinch should be able to fuel said POS if the owner/operator is away due to RL constraints. Would save a lot of issues, headaches, and ***ed off people. "War is not measured in terms of who wins or loses, who is right or wrong.-a It is measured in terms of who survives."*

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