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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 14 post(s) |
Ersahi Kir
Infinite Mobility SpaceMonkey's Alliance
175
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 19:57:00 -
[1351] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Again, don't worry, if Tempest is clearly broken after Odyssey, we'll fix it.
The question is are you guys willing to go back and make major changes to the ship, such as a slot layout change or hull bonus change, if that's what it would take to fix the ship? I'm not convinced from what I've seen on second pass changes so far, which have only been a dash of powergrid, a bit of extra drone m3, or a slight tweek to mass.
Currently a battleship that's under performing can still see use because of extreme price differences, once Odyssey hits it all comes down to role and performance. I'm not convinced that the tempest will measure up. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
254
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 20:02:00 -
[1352] - Quote
Ersahi Kir wrote: The question is are you guys willing to go back and make major changes to the ship, such as a slot layout change or hull bonus change, if that's what it would take to fix the ship?
They pretty much aren't. See the T1 frigates, and how the bad ones are only getting +50 hull, even after such a long time. Same for the destroyers and probably the BCs. |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
575
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 22:17:00 -
[1353] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:Anabella Rella wrote:Looks like it's time for me to get training for those T2 large blasters, rails and lasers or, buy a stack of Typhoons. The writing was on the wall over 15 months ago. I have all my large weapon specializations to 4 and all my racial BS to 5. R.I.P. Tempest. Tempest was never good. Relatively speaking, it was good when the multispec of doom or the sensor damp or doom or the nos of doom ruled, when tornados and maelstroms didn't exist, and when 1400mm's could sometimes take battleship down to structure in a volley. Basically, 5 years ago. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
575
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 22:35:00 -
[1354] - Quote
Also, if CCP Rise was really honest about making a bigger battlecruiser for the Tempest, he would have started with combat battlecruiser stats for everything except the power grid and slots, and added or subtracted were necessary.
What we have now is a ship that's basically incompatible with the type of gangs that concept seemed to be centered around, is horribly inefficient at dealing with BC's compared to the options now available, and is pretty much pray to all of it's peers.
Basically, I'm starting to believe that the dev's think the tempest is actually fine, the numbers will reflect it post release and that we're just over reacting - not the, we want to fix it but we don't know how.... :s Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
135
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 05:01:00 -
[1355] - Quote
Look at the frigate rebalance. Look at the cruiser rebalance. Look at battlecruisers. Now look at the impending battleship rebalance and understand the meaning of "you don't switch horses in mid-stream".
Maybe the Tempest will be made into a good and useful ship as a surprise for EVE's 15th or 20th Anniversary. |
Pesadel0
the muppets DARKNESS.
73
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 09:51:00 -
[1356] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:Also, if CCP Rise was really honest about making a bigger battlecruiser for the Tempest, he would have started with combat battlecruiser stats for everything except the power grid and slots, and added or subtracted were necessary.
What we have now is a ship that's basically incompatible with the type of gangs that concept seemed to be centered around, is horribly inefficient at dealing with ABC's compared to the options now available, and is pretty much pray to all of it's peers.
Basically, I'm starting to believe that the dev's think the tempest is actually fine, the numbers will reflect it post release and that we're just over reacting - not the, we want to fix it but we don't know how.... :s
Well what i dont get is why state the tempest is fine then say if it is subpar they will revised it, i mean we all know how many times CCp revisited something that was mhee, on top of my head : HEL , Old typhoon , arties ...And i could go on , what it saddens me is that no sane people will fly tempest if they can fly another sip that does what supposedly the tempest should be doing .
But if rise says tempest is fine , well maybe we are all wrong . |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
337
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 10:32:00 -
[1357] - Quote
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Lugalzagezi666 wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Ok invalidate is a strong word, Minimizes should be a more appropriated word. On battleship scale you hardly ever have issues of capacitor unless you are being neutralized. I take it you never flown any amarr battleship. Massively wrong presumption from your part. I have amarr BS V and all their guns at spec V and I think I kille dmore things in amarr battleship than ANY other race. No you do not have problems of capacitor at ALL with pulses ( with good skills you could Use mega pulses with MF for the lenght or any normal fight) and when you have cap injectors you do not have problems with beams as well for any engagement other than killing structures and capitals. Tachyons are the only oens that coudl give you a problem, but the fights you do with tachyon are the only weapon that need some management to deal with capacitor issues. But they have a LOT of dps to compensate that. I repeat I NEVER EVER was in a situation that I could not fire a Mega Pulse shot b ecaue of lack of capacitor unless being heavily neuted. With mega bemas take AGES to have cap problems becaus eyou have a WHOEL cargo hodl for cap charges. Tachyosn do get out of cap... but otherwise they would be way overpowered! I find that quite unbelievable as I spent almost all the time flying battleships in abaddon - and my experience tells me, that if fight lasted more than a 4-5 minutes, all I could do was to slowboat from wreck to wreck and look for cap boosters. I still like how tachyons would be way overpowered and yet people fit artillery on their abaddons.
Maybe then it syour problem, because with pulses you can fight any reasonable lenght fight (and for me that does not mean a 0.0 massive blob fight of 1-2 hours.. but any small engagement where the singularties of a battleship are relevant). The armageddon and apocalypse were even easier due to cap usage bonus.
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
337
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 10:35:00 -
[1358] - Quote
drake duka wrote:I realize the mwd cap issues affect all battleships but I was bringing it up since Rise was suggesting the role of shield/nano tempest similar to tornado. If it were to fill this role it would need a cap booster to run mwd. It is an interesting and unique role for a bs (even though t3 bc do it so well) but the Tempest simply isn't agile enough, and the TE nerf will make it totally useless in that role.
In other words a role already born dead, because the tornado can run it better due to far superior agility and falloff bonus.
If you want to fight on taht role you stay outside 25 km range because you will not have a large tank and need to keep away from blasters superior firepower up to 22 km. At that range the neutralizer sof the tempest are just as useful as a christmas tree in a fight. And the falloff bonus of the tornado means it wil lbe dealing far more damage. |
Garresh
Team Chicken and Waffles
204
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 10:56:00 -
[1359] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:Garresh wrote:...I don't like where the tempest is right now, but I'd say it's safe bet if it doesn't turn out well, it will be fixed within 2 months.
I'd like to see anyone in this thread do better. I'll quote this back to you when the Tempest remains as broken as it is now in August. As to your second assertion, I disagree. There have been many viable ideas proposed in this thread by longtime and very knowledgeable players that would have helped bring the Tempest up to par with the other battleships. Almost any of those would have been better than what we're finally getting in Odyssey. The fact that Rise seems to think the current 'Pest is fine, as evidenced by his statements and his last very modest tweaks, don't bode well for you winning that "safe bet".
How about a wager? I'll bet 100 mil the tempest will be in a good place within 3 months after Odyssey launches. Ninja's honor.
And to that other guy. I'm optimistic because I fly around in cruisers and frigs in lowsec all the time. I don't think eve has ever been this balanced. Ever. Their track record so far on tiericide is nearly flawless. I'm willing to give them the benefit for the doubt. This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
Garresh
Team Chicken and Waffles
204
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 11:01:00 -
[1360] - Quote
To mare wrote:give up people...
maybe in 5-6 months CCP will announce they have great plans for the tempest and the ship will get an additional 500 pg (see rifter balance).
Also, at first I thought the rifter was outclassed when the new changes went live, but I've been playing with it recently and the rifter is still really good. Honestly, try it with an AAR. The only t1 ship that benefits more is the incursus. AAR rifters are god tier cause it gets the tank of an armor rifter without compromising on speed. This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
337
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 11:04:00 -
[1361] - Quote
Garresh wrote:Anabella Rella wrote:Garresh wrote:...I don't like where the tempest is right now, but I'd say it's safe bet if it doesn't turn out well, it will be fixed within 2 months.
I'd like to see anyone in this thread do better. I'll quote this back to you when the Tempest remains as broken as it is now in August. As to your second assertion, I disagree. There have been many viable ideas proposed in this thread by longtime and very knowledgeable players that would have helped bring the Tempest up to par with the other battleships. Almost any of those would have been better than what we're finally getting in Odyssey. The fact that Rise seems to think the current 'Pest is fine, as evidenced by his statements and his last very modest tweaks, don't bode well for you winning that "safe bet". How about a wager? I'll bet 100 mil the tempest will be in a good place within 3 months after Odyssey launches. Ninja's honor. And to that other guy. I'm optimistic because I fly around in cruisers and frigs in lowsec all the time. I don't think eve has ever been this balanced. Ever. Their track record so far on tiericide is nearly flawless. I'm willing to give them the benefit for the doubt.
That is because they saved all their blunders for the battleships :P
But seriously we had promises of " tempest will be adjusted before next expansion, or we will look for a clear roel for it ver soon" for like 6 years... they were all lies at end, there is no reason why someone would believe this will nto continue when the PERFECT chance to change them came here.
I had stopped playign eve for 1 years and 2 months and returned because tiercide was reaching the battleships and I wanted to finnally fly these ships corrected and buffed (because battleships overall are TOO WEAK). But seems all my hopes were in vain. |
Garresh
Team Chicken and Waffles
205
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 11:17:00 -
[1362] - Quote
Just fly a nanophoon. I'm posting on my phone, but I had a nanophoon fitting on a previous post earlier today. MWD around at like 1600m/s with 70k ehp and 800 missile DPS at 100km range. I also checked my DPS graph and it was doing full damage to battle cruisers. Like 500dps to a mwding cruiser. And that's before drones...
Any who most battleships are gonna rock. Tempest still feels weak to me but I have faith in them. This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
337
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 11:24:00 -
[1363] - Quote
Garresh wrote:Just fly a nanophoon. I'm posting on my phone, but I had a nanophoon fitting on a previous post earlier today. MWD around at like 1600m/s with 70k ehp and 800 missile DPS at 100km range. I also checked my DPS graph and it was doing full damage to battle cruisers. Like 500dps to a mwding cruiser. And that's before drones...
Any who most battleships are gonna rock. Tempest still feels weak to me but I have faith in them.
The typhoon and hyperion are borderline overpowered now. The mega, raven, got buffed. The geddon was made upside down.
But the one that needed the most help was basically untouched. that is the problem.
I do not see why anyone woudl fly a tempest when he can choose between typhoon and hyperion and maelstrom. |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1224
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 15:08:00 -
[1364] - Quote
For ***** and giggles can someone crunch the following using the new Tempest numbers and give me the EHP as well as the MWD speed both overheated and regular? I'm stuck at work.
High: 800mm II x 6 Heavy Unstable Fluctuator x 2 Mid: 100MN Prototype MWD Heavy Cap Booster II LSE II x 2 Adaptive Invuln II Low: Gyro II x 3 DC II OD II Nano II Rigs: Shield EM Shield Extender x 2 |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
339
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 15:29:00 -
[1365] - Quote
At work as well but can easily preemptively predict that typhoon can overdo it. |
Syreniac
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 15:34:00 -
[1366] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:For ***** and giggles can someone crunch the following using the new Tempest numbers and give me the EHP as well as the MWD speed both overheated and regular? I'm stuck at work.
High: 800mm II x 6 Heavy Unstable Fluctuator x 2 Mid: 100MN Prototype MWD Heavy Cap Booster II LSE II x 2 Adaptive Invuln II Low: Gyro II x 3 DC II OD II Nano II Rigs: Shield EM Shield Extender x 2
Goes to:
[NEW Tempest, Tempest] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Overdrive Injector System II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 25 Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L Heavy Energy Neutralizer II Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Large Core Defense Field Extender I Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Which does 823 DPS before drones, goes 1315m/s normal and 1882m/s overheated. Has 83k EHP normal and 87k overheated. Aligns in 14.3 s with MWD on, or 9.6 without it.
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Urkhan Law
Black Dragon Fighting Society The Devil's Tattoo
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 15:54:00 -
[1367] - Quote
Garresh wrote:AAR rifters are god tier
Calling it BS. Love the Rifter, best looking chassis in my opinion. I try to make it work daily but it is impossible to not see his shortcomings.
The speed advantage you gain by not using plates it is easy to overcome by your oponents with the current heating mechanics (where heating only starts/stops at the next cycle). In the end you have a worse tank, worse dps, a bit more speed and a slight better projection where the damage you can make is easily repaired and that's it. The SAAR improved it a bit, but not that much as you say, at the end of fights in falloff you'll be out of nanite, trying to milk the last bits of cap to feed your now unbonused repair module, you look at your oponent and he will still have more armor/shield than you simply because they have more dps/ehp than you.
It is still a good ship, my favourite, and I'm not a great pilot and I will keep blowing them up right left and center always trying it to make it work, but it is no where near the "god tier" as you call it, that tier is reserved for Incursus, Merlins, Kestrels at the moment. Some fights with the Rifter are now "EvE in hard mode" - maybe the punishement of being better than most for so long. Great it in fleets where you can split EW with the rest of the gang, you can use a med shield extender, slap a gyro and go crazy, but by the same line of thought, almost all ships can work great in fleets, and there are always better ships for the job than a rifter.
Sorry about the derail, this thread is about battleships afterall. |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
194
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 17:13:00 -
[1368] - Quote
Tempest in OP Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 127(+7) / .116(-.004) / 99500000(-3800000) / 16.00s
ninja buff....... now take another 1million kg off and you have a deal :P Although if you look at the description of attack battleships ... damage application is meant to be the focus of their bonuses.... So tracking bonus instead of the damage bonus makes sense here along with a 7th turret and a stronger ROF bonus 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?-á ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
578
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 17:17:00 -
[1369] - Quote
Ninja buff indeed. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
Wrayeth
Inexorable Retribution
89
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 17:21:00 -
[1370] - Quote
That is all. |
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
344
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 17:29:00 -
[1371] - Quote
ninja but a very good buff.
I can settle with that Rise as a Odissey release and we can talk again in like what 3 months? That is if there is need of course.
With this mass at least I can use it as a moderately agile battleship :)
Thanks a lot for listening to the reason regarding tempest mass. That is basically the mass the tempest had before the great nano nerf. |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
937
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Posted - 2013.05.22 19:24:00 -
[1372] - Quote
Aww you guys spotted it so quick!
I kind of finalized it right before I left the office today so I figured I would post tomorrow =P But yes, as you can see in the OP we adjusted the mass of the Tempest down to 99500000 and the agility down to .116. This is actually a small change that resulted from a fairly detailed talk with Fozzie about the state of the Tempest heading for Odyssey. We both feel that this version looks solid for this release, and so there shouldn't be any more tweaks until after we've seen the aftermath of the entire battleship rebalance.
Thanks for the help, we'll talk again after release =) |
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Kane Fenris
NWP
28
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Posted - 2013.05.22 19:39:00 -
[1373] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Aww you guys spotted it so quick!
I kind of finalized it right before I left the office today so I figured I would post tomorrow =P But yes, as you can see in the OP we adjusted the mass of the Tempest down to 99500000 and the agility down to .116. This is actually a small change that resulted from a fairly detailed talk with Fozzie about the state of the Tempest heading for Odyssey. We both feel that this version looks solid for this release, and so there shouldn't be any more tweaks until after we've seen the aftermath of the entire battleship rebalance.
Thanks for the help, we'll talk again after release =)
Thx im quite a bit happier now.... now im only concerned about its dmg application (esp with the TE nerf) but i think we have to look at that a few weeks to months after the patch is deployed
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Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
196
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 19:41:00 -
[1374] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Aww you guys spotted it so quick!
I kind of finalized it right before I left the office today so I figured I would post tomorrow =P But yes, as you can see in the OP we adjusted the mass of the Tempest down to 99500000 and the agility down to .116. This is actually a small change that resulted from a fairly detailed talk with Fozzie about the state of the Tempest heading for Odyssey. We both feel that this version looks solid for this release, and so there shouldn't be any more tweaks until after we've seen the aftermath of the entire battleship rebalance.
Thanks for the help, we'll talk again after release =)
It was me muhahahaha!!!! :P 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?-á ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
396
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 19:51:00 -
[1375] - Quote
biased devs .... |
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
363
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 22:23:00 -
[1376] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Aww you guys spotted it so quick!
I kind of finalized it right before I left the office today so I figured I would post tomorrow =P But yes, as you can see in the OP we adjusted the mass of the Tempest down to 99500000 and the agility down to .116. This is actually a small change that resulted from a fairly detailed talk with Fozzie about the state of the Tempest heading for Odyssey. We both feel that this version looks solid for this release, and so there shouldn't be any more tweaks until after we've seen the aftermath of the entire battleship rebalance.
Thanks for the help, we'll talk again after release =) Sounds great. I have been playing around with the Tempest quite a bit now we know that this will be the final version. Have to say I'm loving it, the amount of possibilities for it is really interesting and fun to play around with. Will be good to see if they work in reality when they are put through their paces on Tranquility. This further agility and mass buff just tops it off even more. Looking like a really nice ship now, a long way from the poor state where we first started with the original proposal. Excellent work indeed Rise, the ship re-balance is in good hands it seems. Will let you know post odyssey on any further concerns. |
SMT008
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Verge of Collapse
592
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 22:43:00 -
[1377] - Quote
That's a great news ! |
tarsin Meza
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 23:29:00 -
[1378] - Quote
will the TFi be i inheriting the mass buff, or will it be exclusive to the tempest hull? |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
344
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 00:17:00 -
[1379] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Aww you guys spotted it so quick!
I kind of finalized it right before I left the office today so I figured I would post tomorrow =P But yes, as you can see in the OP we adjusted the mass of the Tempest down to 99500000 and the agility down to .116. This is actually a small change that resulted from a fairly detailed talk with Fozzie about the state of the Tempest heading for Odyssey. We both feel that this version looks solid for this release, and so there shouldn't be any more tweaks until after we've seen the aftermath of the entire battleship rebalance.
Thanks for the help, we'll talk again after release =)
Small but still larger than the previous 7 ms. The extra agility will make it not look like a fat thign that stay behind slowing down the fleet. At least that. |
Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
38
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 00:37:00 -
[1380] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Garresh wrote:Anabella Rella wrote:Garresh wrote:...I don't like where the tempest is right now, but I'd say it's safe bet if it doesn't turn out well, it will be fixed within 2 months.
I'd like to see anyone in this thread do better. I'll quote this back to you when the Tempest remains as broken as it is now in August. As to your second assertion, I disagree. There have been many viable ideas proposed in this thread by longtime and very knowledgeable players that would have helped bring the Tempest up to par with the other battleships. Almost any of those would have been better than what we're finally getting in Odyssey. The fact that Rise seems to think the current 'Pest is fine, as evidenced by his statements and his last very modest tweaks, don't bode well for you winning that "safe bet". How about a wager? I'll bet 100 mil the tempest will be in a good place within 3 months after Odyssey launches. Ninja's honor. And to that other guy. I'm optimistic because I fly around in cruisers and frigs in lowsec all the time. I don't think eve has ever been this balanced. Ever. Their track record so far on tiericide is nearly flawless. I'm willing to give them the benefit for the doubt. That is because they saved all their blunders for the battleships :P But seriously we had promises of " tempest will be adjusted before next expansion, or we will look for a clear roel for it ver soon" for like 6 years... they were all lies at end, there is no reason why someone would believe this will nto continue when the PERFECT chance to change them came here. I had stopped playign eve for 1 years and 2 months and returned because tiercide was reaching the battleships and I wanted to finnally fly these ships corrected and buffed (because battleships overall are TOO WEAK). But seems all my hopes were in vain.
I so agree with you. Battleships are too weak at the moment. The battleship is the most powerful ship designed, that's what they were meant to be, tanky, powerful and the backbone of a fleet. I did as well stop playing EVE for some time. I love the Tempest hull, it's a good ship, but it's so-so, it doesn't excel anywhere...
Amarr and Caldari have dedicated sniper boats, the Tempest could become our sniper easily with a falloff bonus, much like the Vargur or the Machariel, while keeping the 6 guns and a 7.5% RoF for the T1 version and adding a 7th gun for the Navy version. Because as it is, the Tempest is a good ship but can't match others at the same roles. Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC |
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