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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
190
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Posted - 2013.04.08 14:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
Welcome to the Tech 1 Battleship rebalance, fasten your seatbelts!
Some of the changes herein are significant, so I'm going to lay out our overall tiericide and balance principles at the top of each race's thread, and also provide ship-by-ship explanation. I encourage you to read both before hitting the caps lock key, you may find answers to some of your questions and concerns.
Tiericide - Our effort to destroy ship tiers continues. With battleships, the tiers were most evident in HP amounts and price. All variations had an equal allocation of slots already (19), except drone bonused hulls or disruption hulls, which wonGÇÖt change. As usual, we will be dividing battleships into roles rather than tiers. The distribution will be as follows: One 'Attack' Battleship for each race, and two 'Combat' Battleships for each race (except Caldari, who will retain the only 'Disruption' Battleship for the time being). With these new roles in mind, we will be adjusting hitpoint amounts for all combat battleships near the former tier 3 hitpoint numbers, while the attack hulls will sit closer to the former tier 2s. As with other ship classes, attack battleships will be faster, more agile, and will focus more on damage application and projection than their combat counterparts. Cost of production will be adjusted to reflect tiericide, but so far we have not settled on exact numbers.
Exciting roles for every ship and every race - One of our main goals during this balance pass is to see that each battleship has a lot to offer, and that each race has access to all of Eve's environments. Formerly, the battleship line had strange overlaps and gaps which left certain races excluded from certain styles of play and other races with more than one option for a certain role. This new distribution should hopefully provide new options and excitement for players of all races.
I am breaking the post into four, by race, with the hope of isolating feedback. We look forward to hearing what you all have to say.
Without further ado:
CALDARI
Rokh:
The Rokh, like most of the former tier 3 battleships, is in a very healthy place currently. It hasn't been changed, except for a tweak to the resist bonus. This change is significant, and we are going to dedicate an entire thread to discussing the power of resistance bonuses later in the day. If you want to talk about this bonus here, in relation to the Rokh specifically, feel free. The general idea from our end is that the current bonus to resistance is one of the most powerful ship bonuses in the game. It adds to the power of local tanks (active and passive) as well as remote tanks, which has consistently positioned ships with this bonus at the center of some of the most powerful gameplay available. We feel that the Rokh is a good example of this powerful gameplay, and expect it to thrive despite this change.
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% to large Hybrid Turret optimal range +4% Shield resistances per level (-1% per level)
Slot layout: 8H, 6M, 5L; 8 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 15000 PWG, 780 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8500 / 7000 / 7500 Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 6000 / 1250s / 4.8 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 89 / .136 / 105300000 / 19.85s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 90km / 75 / 7 Sensor strength: 24 Gravimetric Signature radius: 500
Raven:
The (cavalry)Raven is becoming the Caldari attack battleship. Its bonuses were a natural fit already, and although its giving up some base hitpoints, the substantial increase to speed and added mid should open up plenty of new opportunities for Caldari missile pilots without hurting anyone who was already happy using it.
Its also gaining power grid and CPU output so that torp focused fits and fits that want to use propulsion mods are more easily accessible. Keep in mind that we will be taking a more detailed look at battleship sized missile systems in the near future.
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses: +5% bonus to Cruise and Torpedo Launcher rate of fire +10% bonus to Cruise Missile Torpedo Velocity
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 7M(+1), 5L; 0 turrets , 6 launchers Fittings: 11000 PWG(+1500), 750(+50) CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6800(-700) / 5800(-841) / 6400(-241) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 5500(+187.5) / 1160s / 4.74 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 113(+19) / .12(-.008) / 99300000 / 16.52s (-1.1s) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-25) / 75 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km / 85 / 7 Sensor strength: 22 Gravimetric Signature radius: 420(-50)
Scorpion:
The Scorpion, while being an oddity in the battleship line up, seems fairly happy. We have adjusted its hitpoints slightly, so they would roughly match the attack set, but otherwise there are no changes.
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses: 15% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength 25% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal and falloff range 25% bonus to ECM Burst range
Slot layout: 6H, 8M, 4L; 4 turrets , 4 launchers Fittings: 9000 PWG, 750 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7000(+359) / 5500 / 6500(+1031) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 5500(+187.5) / 1087s / 5.06 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 94 / .116 / 103600000 / 16.66s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 75 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 90km / 110 / 7 Sensor strength: 24 Gravimetric Signature radius: 480
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Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
301
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Posted - 2013.04.08 14:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
Lol didn't have any idea that raven is THAT slow,i assume amarr tier 3 will get same reduction nothing seems out of place i saw 2nd thread *goes to take a lookse. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
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Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices Yulai Federation
68
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Posted - 2013.04.08 14:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
I think the scorp could use a bit of armor instead of hull, that'd make it a better ship in armor fleets. Currently it has quite a low EHP when armor tanked, and it's losing a lot of EHP when shield tanked, due to the ECMs in the mids. |
Entity
X-Factor Industries Synthetic Existence
360
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Posted - 2013.04.08 14:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
How will this affect the Raven State Issue? GòªGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGòæGûæGûæGûæGòöGòùGûæGòæGûæGòæGûæGòöGòùGûæGòªGòæGûæGòöGòùGòöGòªGòùGòöGòù GòæGûæGòöGòùGòöGòùGòöGòúGûæGòöGòùGòáGûæGûæGòáGûæGòáGòùGòáGò¥GûæGòæGòáGûæGòáGò¥GòæGòæGòæGòÜGòù Gò¬GòÉGòÜGò¥GòæGûæGòÜGò¥GûæGòÜGò¥GòæGûæGûæGòÜGò¥GòæGòæGòÜGò¥GûæGò¬GòÜGò¥GòÜGò¥GòæGûæGòæGòÜGò¥ Got Item? |
Qaidan Alenko
State War Academy Caldari State
3181
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Posted - 2013.04.08 14:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
Entity wrote:How will this affect the Raven State Issue? I think the faction ships are still down the road... *fears for his SNI* Go ahead... Get your-áWham on!!! |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
426
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Posted - 2013.04.08 14:54:00 -
[6] - Quote
ULTRA CONSERVATIVE. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
200
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Posted - 2013.04.08 14:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
Entity wrote:How will this affect the Raven State Issue?
We have a special balance pass in mind for you entity.
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Entity
X-Factor Industries Synthetic Existence
361
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Posted - 2013.04.08 15:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Entity wrote:How will this affect the Raven State Issue? We have a special balance pass in mind for you entity.
You make me feel all special GÖÑ GòªGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGòæGûæGûæGûæGòöGòùGûæGòæGûæGòæGûæGòöGòùGûæGòªGòæGûæGòöGòùGòöGòªGòùGòöGòù GòæGûæGòöGòùGòöGòùGòöGòúGûæGòöGòùGòáGûæGûæGòáGûæGòáGòùGòáGò¥GûæGòæGòáGûæGòáGò¥GòæGòæGòæGòÜGòù Gò¬GòÉGòÜGò¥GòæGûæGòÜGò¥GûæGòÜGò¥GòæGûæGûæGòÜGò¥GòæGòæGòÜGò¥GûæGò¬GòÜGò¥GòÜGò¥GòæGûæGòæGòÜGò¥ Got Item? |
Xiaodown
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
86
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Posted - 2013.04.08 15:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
I'll quote what I said in the Reddit thread:
Quote:The scorpion is almost worthless at this point. It used to be literally the most OP ship in the game - twice. But now, with the multiple nerfs to ECM, it's inability to speed, sig, or armor tank, and the latest nerf to ECM in the way of skills that can boost your sensor strength, I just don't see why anyone would ever fly it. It costs 15x blackbird, and two blackbirds would be better. It costs the same as a falcon and, tbh, has a similar train time, but the falcon is better in every conceivable way. It's the only battleship without a bonus to either damage or tank; it is a strictly PVP ship - it's just a solution for a question that no one asks anymore.
I really wish something would be done about the scorpion. Since 2008 or so, ECM has been nerfed many times (at least 3 that I remember); it is only marginally effective, and even then only when you fill every mid and low slot for jamming, with maybe holding back two slots for tank.
So, basically, it's a ship that's only effective when hero tanked, and yet it's primaried first in almost every fleet I've been in, so what's the point? It's not cost effective, it's not mobile, it's not effective at jamming for more than a couple of cycles before it explodes, it has little to no tank, no PVE role.... Its role needs to be rethought, IMO. |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
62
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Posted - 2013.04.08 15:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
i think the raven needs more mobility i.e. mainly align time as when you add a mwd on it it takes a long time to turn. Rokh should have more mobility too for blaster fits 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
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Qaidan Alenko
State War Academy Caldari State
3185
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Posted - 2013.04.08 15:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
As there currently seems to be place to ask this question...
With regards to the reduction of Resist bonuse from 5% to 4% (Both armor and shield), how will this affect other ships in game with these bonuses? Will their resist bonuses be similarily be adjusted by -1%? Go ahead... Get your-áWham on!!! |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
298
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Posted - 2013.04.08 15:12:00 -
[12] - Quote
Raven, unless you make some drastic changes to the torps or cruises this ship continues to be bad Official CSM 8 Campaign HQ * Unforgiven Storm for CSM8 * My Blog
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fukier
882
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Posted - 2013.04.08 15:14:00 -
[13] - Quote
meh... without a boost to cruise and torps the raven is still... meh...
hopefully there will be a thread about large missiles too... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Nolove Trader
Black Hole Cluster
0
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Posted - 2013.04.08 15:15:00 -
[14] - Quote
Why should someone fly a Raven when he could fly a Typhoon? The lower missile range of the Phoon (at least when using torps, but who uses Cruises nowadays?) , we are talking about ~30km vs ~20km with T1-Torps, shouldn't be that much of a problem regarding the still much higher basespeed of the Phoon. |
Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
2223
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Posted - 2013.04.08 15:43:00 -
[15] - Quote
Rokh - I like, seems fair as you have nerfed the abaddon a little bit.
Raven - Yeaaaaaaaaaa, I love it tbh, although I don't like the removal of 1 heavy neutraliser! But that's just me, coz theyre way OP
Scorpion - Actually disappointed, I wanted to see a bit of a slot change, Preferably 5 High, 8 Mid, 5 Low. Allows for the pilot to choose between Full utility scorpion, with an armour tank/smartbombs etc , or a 4x Torp 1x Neut scorpion, with shield tank, 1 ECM and a decent enough amount of damage to actually warrant it in a solo/dual combo. I think this is a BIG flaw in the Scorp that needs to be addressed.
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Jureth22
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
1
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Posted - 2013.04.08 15:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
wouldnt be time to give rokh hybrid damage bonus instead of that optimal one?i mean merlin,moa,ferox got it already. |
SMT008
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
531
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Posted - 2013.04.08 15:54:00 -
[17] - Quote
The rebalanced Raven...I don't have any words for it. I was FORCED to train T2 torp launchers for the Naglfar, but I ain't regretting it when I see this new Raven.
Enough PWG to actually fit torps, more CPU for mission fits, an additional medslot (WOOOOT), more mobility, all that in one package.
The only thing that might be a problem is the mass. I remember the Raven being SUPER-BULKY. Maybe it was just me but if the time needed to accelerate doesn't change, its max speed won't ever be reached and that speed buff won't do much.
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SaberSeven
Black Lotus Heavy Industries Ethereal Dawn
0
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Posted - 2013.04.08 16:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
Two thoughts:
Please don't kill all resist bonuses...I love my Damnation and Chimera. As for on the Rokh I don't fly one so I couldn't say.
Second more relevant thought: "Plans for large missiles" not to be a debbie downer but missiles of all stripes are awful in every way. This is the case not only in pvp but pve and in general mechanics. Mechanic gripes"
- Missiles can't be used in orbital strikes even though in real life we have the technology to do it.
- Missiles have extreme travel times but even projectiles travel at the speed of light. (Interesting physics you have here)
Just to rehash, because of flight time we can't snipe, because mechanics we can't orbital (more annoying than anything else), and because of just generalized weakness compared to other platforms (no damage bonuses or kinetic only) they are inferior.
Allegedly the Caldari are the most technologically advanced per fluff but ask anyone or check your stats and see how useful most Cal ships are in pvp. I like that the Rokh has a place now but the raven is a joke, no one flies our HACs, and our capitals are consistently ranked the worst.
In sum: fix missiles please. (And the kinetic only bonus is joke, make amarr only have the em part of their lasers bonused and see what happens). |
ArmEagle Kusoni
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
9
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Posted - 2013.04.08 16:17:00 -
[19] - Quote
So, as Caldari my only option basically is ranged damage, thus less DPS? Since the Megathron even got faster than it already was, the Rokh is no option anymore for blaster fit.
... Or am I missing something? I'm not a veteran ... |
Burseg Sardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
247
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Posted - 2013.04.08 16:18:00 -
[20] - Quote
Xiaodown wrote:I'll quote what I said in the Reddit thread: Quote:The scorpion is almost worthless at this point. It used to be literally the most OP ship in the game - twice. But now, with the multiple nerfs to ECM, it's inability to speed, sig, or armor tank, and the latest nerf to ECM in the way of skills that can boost your sensor strength, I just don't see why anyone would ever fly it. It costs 15x blackbird, and two blackbirds would be better. It costs the same as a falcon and, tbh, has a similar train time, but the falcon is better in every conceivable way. It's the only battleship without a bonus to either damage or tank; it is a strictly PVP ship - it's just a solution for a question that no one asks anymore. I really wish something would be done about the scorpion. Since 2008 or so, ECM has been nerfed many times (at least 3 that I remember); it is only marginally effective, and even then only when you fill every mid and low slot for jamming, with maybe holding back two slots for tank. So, basically, it's a ship that's only effective when hero tanked, and yet it's primaried first in almost every fleet I've been in, so what's the point? It's not cost effective, it's not mobile, it's not effective at jamming for more than a couple of cycles before it explodes, it has little to no tank, no PVE role.... Its role needs to be rethought, IMO.
I think if additional Disruption Battleships were added it'd give a better perspective of the Scorpion WRT other Battleships. It's definitely a strange beast by itself.
It would be sweet for another Caldari Combat battleship as well to be added alongside the 3 Disruption ones added. Hey, as a dude that lives in lowsec, you should read my idea on how to "fix" it... in Blog format, complete with a spreadsheet! http://3xxxd.blogspot.com/2012/09/how-to-buff-lowsec.html |
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Sinigr Shadowsong
War Tactical Groups SOLAR FLEET
72
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Posted - 2013.04.08 16:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
The only thing that bothers me with these changes is that Raven will now be weaker missile ship that Typhoon. |
Taritura
Oberon Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
1
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Posted - 2013.04.08 16:18:00 -
[22] - Quote
CCP Do you now, the balancing team, That missiles need time to travel to it's target ???? so weakening the tank of raven is jus like taking 2 more volleys from other BS .... And by the way do you now what is the best tank against caldari???? you only need to move a little bit puf 70% of dps is gone ... |
Major Killz
165
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Posted - 2013.04.08 16:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
Sh!t is still sh!t other than the Rokh. |
Shahai Shintaro
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
17
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Posted - 2013.04.08 16:39:00 -
[24] - Quote
I'll echo what others have said. It makes no sense to me that the Caldari, the missile race, has less damage application with missiles than the typhoon. The typhoon with an explosion velocity bonus will deal more of its damage to its targets. I'm having a hard time seeing why I would fly a raven over a typhoon. |
chuckfinleyrocks
I'll Be Your Huckleberry
1
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Posted - 2013.04.08 16:39:00 -
[25] - Quote
stop pretending and tell us the truth, you want to nerf all ships so that more of them are destroyed and we have to purchase more of them leaving no isk for GTCs. Why even have races any more. Gone are the treaning skills difference between races, now each race is going to have the exact same ships. If your going to screw up the game, just get rid of 3 races. Glad I already purchased Star Citizen. Will be the only space game worth playing soon. |
Ivan Tukachev
The 1st Regiment HUN Reloaded
0
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Posted - 2013.04.08 16:41:00 -
[26] - Quote
In my opinion the Scorpion is still very much disappointing, and requires a lot of changing and rethinking to be useful once again.
The problems as I see:
1. ECM Strenght: The weak ECM ability of the scorpion is one of the biggest flaws of the ship. And the low bonus amount isn't really helping here. Considering good ECM and level 5 caldari battleship skill the jammers strenght remains terrible. This causes the ship class not to be useful in battles except in very large numbers, where the number of jammers fitted adds up on the chances of successfully jamming limited numbers of targets. (e.g. logistic ships)
2. Weak tank and "bad" locking range: Condisering that the Scorpion is a jammer ship there aren't really good choices tanking the vessel. Should you shield tank it, you are losing precious slots for already weak ecm jammers, not to mention that you will need prop mods too! Going down on this road, if you go for a compromise between some shield and the 4 racial jammers + 1 speed mod, it means that you will hardly be able to lock targets above 100km. While you have a very good optimal on ECM, and also a very healthy falloff you most likely will never be able to put that to good use, because you won't have the spare slots for sensor boosters or signal amplifiers.
In my opinion if the scorp had a much longer locking range, around +50% or +100% more the ship could be used as a truly long range e-war platform. A micro jump drive kiting setup, from long range, could possibly survive and thus do its job better than being right now, being too close to just too many things with its present weak tank. The weak ecm would still be trouble.
3. The ECM burst bonus is mostly useless. It is used quite rarely for one ship class to be devoted to this, as this type of disruption isn't really useful for fighting, and when you have to resort to this tactic to escape you can consider yourself as good as dead. This stuff is just too circumstantial to be useful. While it may come handy once or twice making a single ship get away, in a fleet combat it hurts team efforts just too much.
In my opinon the ship could benefit here from: a) better overall sensor capabilities b)better tanking possibilities or c) getting some weapon bonuses.
4. Weak weapon systems: As it currently stands the scorpion with its low number of bonusless weapons slots means you can really add any weapon systems to your liking. On the other hand it also means that mounting any weapon systems on the ship makes virtually no difference. This is a problem. As it is currently the ship doesn't really excel in its disruption role, and without and meaningful capabilities for even self-defense its uselessness factor is just bumped up by one.
Some argue that fitting neutralizers is the way to go, but considering that neuts are quite close range for fleet battles, and you being squishy this doesn't seem to make a good combination, other than being able to flee.
But as I said, creating a ship build entirely focusing on being able to flee when things not work out as intended, is just terrible and wrong on the base concept. If you want to win battles you will want to use designs which are meant to try to win, and not use designs which are useful for fleeing. |
Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
346
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Posted - 2013.04.08 16:57:00 -
[27] - Quote
Rokh - Nothing has changed, will still be used as a sniper platform with mediocre DPS.
Raven - Became more worthless? might as well fly the Typhoon.
Scorp - Only reason it's useful is because it's ECM, it's also turned into an armour tank for this reason.
Caldari ships are way over due for some love in general, the passes of the sub BS have had some loving changes and a few more ships have stepped up to be viable but over all they're still the worst PVP ships in EVE. (Exceptions for a few roles) They're slow as hell even though they're shield tankers, missiles are worthless outside of PVE... if we didn't have the most broken EWAR in the game and a shield Logistics ship you wouldn't see as many people training Caldari.
As others have said if you read any kind of EVE lore you will see that Caldari are meant to have some of the strongest ships in EVE yet when was the last time you saw the Raven even considered a serious PVP ship? Lieutenant Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
64
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Posted - 2013.04.08 17:03:00 -
[28] - Quote
Unforgiven Storm wrote:Raven, unless you make some drastic changes to the torps or cruises this ship continues to be bad
they need to nerf down rockets and HAMs before they look at buffing them 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Bereza Mia
Trade Federation of EVE
26
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Posted - 2013.04.08 17:07:00 -
[29] - Quote
Shahai Shintaro wrote:I'll echo what others have said. It makes no sense to me that the Caldari, the missile race, has less damage application with missiles than the typhoon. The typhoon with an explosion velocity bonus will deal more of its damage to its targets. I'm having a hard time seeing why I would fly a raven over a typhoon.
And Typhoon have 100 drones bandwidth, Raven - only 50.
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BarryBonez
Ixion Defence Systems Test Alliance Please Ignore
24
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Posted - 2013.04.08 17:16:00 -
[30] - Quote
Rokh is pretty cool. Haven't gone on one of our fabulous Rokh fleets however due to its 300mil price tag however.
Raven is still just a PvE beginner ship as far as most are concerned.
The scorpion is still the scorpion. Hopefully it will be much less squishy from here on out. This might be too drastic, but perhaps switching some hi slots for lows would allow it to survive a bit longer on the battlefield. I know its dishing out ECM punishment, but I feel that a battleship class ship simply shouldn't melt as fast as it always seems to when it gets shot at by anything decent. More lows would allow a much better armor tank, at least buffer wise, to be fit, which would be more befitting of a battleship. Now a pilot can focus on projecting ECM pain instead of wondering how many mids to dedicate to a wimpy shield tank at the cost of less ECM mods. |
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